Posted by Ed Kiser on April 09, 2003 at 03:51:30 from 152.163.188.167 user Kisered.
In Reply to: Re: BECKFOOT layout posted by John Nichols on April 08, 2003 at 16:24:19:
John -
I have included in this note some of the more pertinant
statements from your recent offering regarding the layout of
Beckfoot. In certain cases, I have offered my own remarks,
either in support of, or in contradiction to (as a matter of
diversity of opinion), or to add a few additional details. My
comments in this next section are all in UPPERCASE,
so you guys can tell my stuff from yours. Here goes...
Ed Kiser, South Florida
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From: John Nichols, subject: Re: BECKFOOT layout
Ed mentioned that I could use trig to calculate the dimensions of
element of Beckfoot. Some of the attached sketches show the
dimensional analysis. I used two sets of dimensional relations
to get the height of Beckfoot, the first is the height of the
Boat House that I could get from the river shot in SA. That was
what started me thinking about Beckfoot and discussing it with
Ed.
[ONE NICE THING ABOUT DEALING WITH AN ENGINEER, I CAN USE AN
EXPRESSION LIKE "TRIG" AND NOT GET A SHOCKED RESPONSE.]
I could use the WH shot and the PM shots of Beckfoot to get the
dimensions of the walls and I could cross check these dimensions
against Tent Lodge pictures from the Web and the painting.
Luckily AR knew how to draw perspective so I am confident I can
get relative relationships.
[JOHN HAS MADE SOME VERY CAREFUL MEASUREMENTS USING VARIOUS
FEATURES IN THE ARTWORK THAT RANSOME PROVIDED. I CAUTION THE
RELYING TOO MUCH ON THE SIZE OF ITEMS IN DRAWINGS. SUCH DRAWINGS
ARE JUST APPROXIMATIONS, AND ARE NOT NECESSARILY ALL THAT
ACCURATE. FOR EXAMPLE IN THE NO GO DRAWING OF BECKFOOT, AS SEEN
FROM THE TOP OF THE PROMONTORY, THE HOUSE ITSELF IS VERY SMALL,
AS IT IS QUITE A WAY OFF IN THE DISTANCE. WITH A HOUSE THAT IS
THAT SMALL, THE VERY WIDTH OF AN INKED LINE COULD REPRESENT
SEVERAL FEET OF ACTUAL DIMENSION. NOT TRYING TO DISPARAGE
RANSOME'S ARTISTIC ABILITY, BUT A SKETCH IS NOT A PHOTOGRAPH, AND
IS SUBJECT TO SOME DEGREE OF ERROR.]
There are several things we can accept as book facts:
1. We know where Nancy and Peggy's room is located.
2. We know the height of the boathouse and its dimensions from
SA and the river shot.
3. We can get a relative size of Beckfoot from the shot of the
Great Aunt in the Garden pointing at the grass. Which is about
20 feet high. This sets the house back about 250 feet from the
water's edge.
[NOW JOHN, I AM NOT SURE HOW YOU CAN DETERMINE THE GRASS IS 20
FEET HIGH. IF THAT WERE SO, WE MIGHT FIND IT HARD TO EVEN SEE GA
STANDING IN THE YARD POINTING OUT THE DAISIES. WITH GRASS THAT
HIGH, IT IS NO WONDER NANCY WAS DIRECTED TO MOW THE LAWN. OK,
I'M BEING A BIT JOKING HERE, BUT NOT SURE JUST WHAT YOU ARE
DESCRIBING AS BEING "20 FEET TALL" - PERHAPS IT IS THE BECKFOOT
HOUSE ITSELF? ASSUMING THIS IS WHAT IS MEANT, AND THE HOUSE'S
HEIGHT IS BASED ON THE HEIGHT OF GA, JUST HOW DO WE KNOW HOW TALL
SHE IS? IF THIS "20 FEET" IS BASED ON THE HEIGHT OF THE
BOATHOUSE, NOT SURE HOW WE KNOW HOW TALL THAT LITTLE BUILDING IS
EITHER. THERE IS ALSO THE CONSIDERATION OF PERSPECTIVE IN THAT
IF THE BOATHOUSE AND BECKFOOT ARE NOT THE SAME DISTANCE AWAY FROM
THE VIEWER, THE FURTHER OBJECT WILL APPEAR SMALLER. FIGURING OUT
THE EFFECTS OF PERSPECTIVE ON THE RELATIVE SIZE OF THESE TWO
OBJECTS PERHAPS DOES CALL FOR AN ENGINEER WITH A KNOWLEDGE OF
TRIG. AN INTERESTING EXERCISE IN CALCULATION. AN INPUT TO THIS
CALCULATION IS THE MEASURED HEIGHT OF BECKFOOT IN THE DRAWING,
BUT IT IS SO FAR AWAY IN THE PICTURE, THAT IT IS SUCH A SMALL
THING, SO TO IMPLY ANY TRUE HEIGHT RESULTING FROM THAT TINY
DRAWING IS PERHAPS STRETCHING CREDABILITY.
THERE IS SOME INCONSISTANCIES IN THESE DRAWINGS. THE PICTURE OF
JOLY'S GROUP AT THE FRONT OF BECKFOOT, AND THE HIGH ALTITUDE
VIEW OF THE ENTIRE BECKFOOT AREA, AS SHOWN IN THE MAP OF THAT
AREA, SHOWS ONE OUTBUILDING (GARAGE, SHED, STABLE) IN THE JOLY'S
GROUP PICTURE, YET IN THE MAP, IT SHOWS TWO OUTBUILDINGS, WHICH
ARE NOT REALLY IDENTIFIED.]
4. I can use the pictures in PM and WH to cross check the height
estimate against the door height, and the children heights and
the sundial height.
[In the picture of NANCY with the mumps, the windows and the
kitchen are much CLOSER, so can be more accurately measured, and
such info is much more reliable that the measurement of the
height of Beckfoot from the NO GO drawing.]
5. I can then compare these dimensions to the Tent Lodge
painting image that Ian sent to me. (I have no doubts it is the
model.) I can also use the Tent Lodge Painting to compare the
background mountains and fells heights against the AR Drawing
from PM. In the Tent Lodge painting we have a house at the foot
of the mountians to give us a scale.
[I CAUTION TOO MUCH DEPENDENCY UPON THE DIMENSIONS OF A REAL
HOUSE THAT HAS SOME RESEMBLANCE TO OUR MENTAL IMAGE AND A FEW
SKETCHES OF BECKFOOT. IN A WAY, TRYING TO MEASURE TENT LODGE TO
DRAW CONCLUSIONS ABOUT BECKFOOT IS LIKE MEASURING THE LENGTH OF
CONISTON LAKE TO DETERMINE THE LENGTH OF "THE LAKE" OF THE
STORIES. RANSOME USED CERTAIN FEATURES OF KNOWN OBJECTS AS THE
BASIS OF SOME OF HIS FICTIONAL PLACES (AND PEOPLE) BUT THIS IS
STILL FICTION, WITH ARTISTIC LICENSE ALLOWING FOR SOME DEVIATIONS
OF THE FICTIONAL OBJECT FROM ANY ORIGINAL HE MAY HAVE HAD IN MIND
TO USE AS A STARTING POINT FOR HIS IMAGINATION. THERE IS NO
REQUIREMENT THAT BECKFOOT BE EXACTLY BASED ON SOME EXISTING
BUILDING.]
You need about 20 points of comparison to get a match on a
fingerprint. AR has at least 20 points that match Tent Lodge and
the background. Amazon River basin is Coniston Water. (I have
no doubts about this and I would be quite happy to swear on a
bible to the fact that AR used Tent Lodge as Beckfoot. I used
the contours given on the English maps to compare the heights of
the hills in the Tent Lodge sketches and then compared the shapes
to what AR drew in PM.
[ALTHOUGH THERE ARE THOSE SIMILARITIES, IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT
BECKFOOT IS AN ACCURATE COPY OF TENT LODGE; IT MERELY SHARES SOME
OF ITS FEATURES, BUT NOT ALL. I'M NOT SURE OF THIS, BUT DOESN'T
TENT LODGE SHOW A DOORWAY IN THE MIDDLE OF ITS LONG SIDE?
BECKFOOT DOES NOT HAVE SUCH A DOORWAY. REF: PICTURE, DICK
CLIMBING IN THE STUDY WINDOW.]
5. We know where the chimneys are (PM)
[I SUPPOSE THAT INFORMATION CAME FROM THE DRAWINGS. FOR EXAMPLE,
THE PICTURE SHOWING THE GATHERING OF THE FIRE FIGHTERS IN THE
FRONT YARD OF BECKFOOT SHOWS THE KITCHEN CHIMNEY BEING BETWEEN
THE KITCHEN STRUCTURE AND THE MAIN BUILDING. IN THE NO GO
DRAWING, THAT KITCHEN PICTURE IS ON THE END OF THE KITCHEN,
FAR AWAY FROM THE MAIN BUILDING. SO MUCH FOR DETERMINING CHIMNEY
ARRANGEMENTS FROM DRAWINGS - ESPECIALLY WHEN THESE DRAWINGS SHOW
SUCH CONTRADICTIONS. THIS IS THE HAZARD FROM TRYING TO DRAW TOO
FIRM A CONCLUSION FROM THIS ART WORK.]
6. We know there is a landing (PM)
[HERE IS A QUOTE FROM PM:
THEY WENT UP AND FOUND DOROTHEA'S SUITCASE ON THE LANDING
OUTSIDE THE SPARE-ROOM DOOR. COOK WAS LOOKING ANXIOUSLY ROUND.
THIS TELLS ME THAT THE SPARE ROOM IS AT THE HEAD OF THE STAIRS.]
7. We know there is a hallway (PM and PP)
8. We know there is a front door near CF's room (PM)
9. We know there is a garden door leading out onto an area that
was flattened for sports (PM) I can find no evidence that the
Garden Door is not the one shown in WH with Nancy's room.
10. We know that Cook was crossing from the kitchen to the ????
with a set of crockery when the bell rang and she dropped them.
But it was not the dining room and I do not have my PP close so
could you check that for me Ed please. This establishes the fact
that there is a hall in the kitchen area at the back.
[A QUOTE FROM PP:
COOK WAS STANDING AT THE KITCHEN DOOR
WITH HER HANDS TO HER EARS.
...
"LUCKY IT WASN'T THE BEST SERVICE," SAID COOK. "A NOISE LIKE
THAT, AND ME JUST CROSSING TO THE PANTRY..."
THE BELL IS IN THE PASSAGEWAY, NOT THE HALL. ALTHOUGH NOT
EXPLICIT, IT IS ASSUMED THAT IT IS THIS PASSAGEWAY THAT COOK IS
CROSSING WHEN THE BELL CAUSED HER ACCIDENT. THERE IS NO MENTION
OF "DINING ROOM" IN THIS SITUATION.]
11. We know there is a larder and a pantry (PP and PM) Ed ??? I
am sure this is correct but could you double check. Again off
the hall in the kitchen.
[THE "HALL IN THE KITCHEN" - ARE YOU REFERRING TO THE
PASSAGEWAY?
A QUOTE FROM PM:
"OUT OF MY KITCHEN ALL THE LOT OF YOU," SAID COOK. "WE'LL BE
HAVING HER HERE BEFORE THEY'RE OUT OF THE HOUSE. MISS PEGGY, COME
OUT OF MY LARDER..."
IN PMCH25, THEY ARE ANXIOUSLY WAITING FOR NEWS OF GA AS THEY SIT
IN THE KITCHEN, A BIT AFRAID THAT THE GA MIGHT SUDDENLY SHOW UP
AND CATCH THE D'S THERE.
"YES, DO," SAID PEGGY. "WE'LL SEE FROM THE WINDOW WHEN THEY
BRING HER BACK. WE CAN EASILY GET YOU OUT. AND THERE'S THE LARDER
TO HIDE IN. AND THE PANTRY."
APPARENTLY THESE TWO CHAMBERS ARE ACCESSABLE FROM THE KITCHEN, OR
VERY NEAR TO THE KITCHEN AT LEAST.]
12. The kitchen block is attached to the main house we can see
that from the Joly's picture of the gathering in PM and from the
WH shot. This is confirmed to my satisfaction in the lake view
photograph of Tent Lodge.
[THE FACT THAT TENT LODGE HAS A FEATURE DOES NOT NECESSARILY
PROVE THAT BECKFOOT HAS THAT SAME FEATURE.
THAT THESE TWO DIFFERENT HEIGHT STRUCTURES ARE CONNECTED IS WELL
SHOWN BY ARTWORK. THERE IS THE PRESENCE OF THE PASSAGEWAY WHICH
MAY BE THERE INSIDE ACTUALLY SEPARATING THESE TWO, ALTHOUGH IT IS
UNDER THE SAME ROOF AS THE KITCHEN ITSELF.]
13. We can calculate the size of the kitchen block from the roof
geometry and heights from the PM shot of Joly's group. The
kitchen is visible behind the Pigeon loft and the garage. (PM)
14. We know there is a box room. (PM)
[There is only one reference to its existance; no reference as to
its location. Possibly attic of main house, attic of kitchen,
somewhere in shed, garage, stable. It just exists, somewhere.]
15. We know there is a dining room (PM, PP)
16. We know there is a drawing room. (PM)
[THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT THE DRAWING ROOM ALSO CONTAINS A PIANO.]
17. We know CF had a study that is on the same side of the house
as the girl's room and in the diagonally opposite corner. (PM)
[THE DRAWING SHOWING DICK CLIMBING IN THE WINDOW OF THE STUDY AND
ALSO SHOWING AT THE FAR END, THE ROSE TRELLIS, DOES FIRMLY
ESTABLISH THE LOCATION OF THESE TWO ROOMS. THE RELATIVE LOCATION
OF THE DINING AND DRAWING ROOMS ARE IMPLIED BY THE PATH GA TOOK
WHEN RESEARCHING THE SOURCE OF THE NOISE, AS SHE WENT FROM
KITCHEN, THRU DINING, THRU DRAWING, THEN INTO THE STUDY, IN THAT
ORDER. THIS ESTABLISHES THE FACT THAT THE STUDY IS AT THE FRONT
OF THE HOUSE, AT THE END AWAY FROM THE KITCHEN, AND THAT NANCY'S
ROOM IS AT THE OTHER END, NEXT TO THE KITCHEN EXTENSION.]
18. We know that the Spare room is either above CF's study or in
the diagonally opposite corner (The arrangment of the Bed in the
shot of Nancy finishing the pirate picture gives us this detail).
(PM)
19. At this point we run into a decision as to where is the
Spare room. AR says in PM that the noise of cleaning in the
spare room could be heard in the dining room. But that Dorothy
smelt the new mown hay and Dick heard the owl. The prevailing
wind in England is westerly (In fact, the westerly winds blowing
across the Atlantic dominate the British climate.= from a web
site on the English Maritime Climate) so the spare room could be
in either corner, but Dick heard the Owl and as he was sleeping
in CF's room I am suggesting that the CF's room is in the SW
corner and is the closest bedroom to the kitchen area. The spare
room is in the NE corner. That also suggests that the stairs has
its upper end at the east and the lower end at the west.
[SOME CONTRACTION HERE: YOU SAY CF'S ROOM IS IN THE SW CORNER AND
IS THE CLOSEST BEDROOM TO THE KITCHEN. THE KITCHEN IS TO THE
NORTH OF THE MAIN BUILDING, WHILE CF'S ROOM IS TO THE SOUTH, AT
THE ENTIRELY OPPOSITE END OF THE MAIN BUILDING.
ONE ITEM OF CONFUSION THAT OBSCURES FACTS THAT ARE TRYING TO BE
STATED. THE HOUSE MAIN AXIS IS ON A NW TO SE LINE, WITH THE
KITCHEN BEING AT THE NW END OF THE HOUSE. IN MY DESCRIPTION IN
OTHER ENTRIES OF THIS FORUM, I SUGGESTED, FOR SIMPLIFICATION'S
SAKE TO AVOID MISUNDERSTANDINGS, THAT WE PRETEND THAT THE HOUSE
IS ON A NS AXIS, WITH THE KITCHEN AT THE N END. FROM JOHN'S
DESCRIPTION ABOVE, I GET THE FEELING THAT HE HAS THE HOUSE MORE
ON AN EW AXIS WITH THE KITCHEN AT THE W END. SO TO SAY "THE
SPARE ROOM IS IN THE NE CORNER" IS CONFUSING, DEPENDING ON WHICH
WAY YOU ARE ASSUMING THE HOUSE IS LYING. IT WOULD BE NE, IF
ASSUMING A EW ALIGNMENT; IT WOULD BE SE CORNER, IF ASSUMING A NS
ALIGNMENT. EITHER WAY OF LOOKING AT IT, THE SPARE ROOM IS AT
THE END AWAY FROM THE KITCHEN, IT IS AT THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE,
UPSTAIRS, DIRECTLY OVER THE STUDY. THAT PLACEMENT IS DETERMINED
BY THE NIGHT OF THE BURGLARY, THE GA LEANED OUT OF HER ROOM
SHOUTING ABOUT HAVING A GUN, AND DICK, WHO SLIPPED OUT OF THE
STUDY INTO THE SHADOW OF THE MOON, REALIZED THAT SHE COULD NOT
SEE HIM UNLESS SHE HAD THE NECK OF AN OSTRICH. SO SHE WAS ON
THAT SIDE, BUT LOOKING INTO THE DARKNESS OF THAT SHADOW, REALLY
COULD NOT SEE DICK AT ALL. SO THE GUEST (GA'S) ROOM IS AT THE
FRONT, AT THE LANDING, WITH CF'S BEDROOM (WHERE DICK SPEND ONE
NIGHT) IS ACROSS THAT LANDING, AND THUS ON THE FRONT ALSO. THE
LANDING BEING AT THE FRONT SAYS THE TOP OF THE STAIRS IS AT THE
FRONT. THE NORTH EAST SOUTH WEST DIRECTIONS IN SOME OF THESE
DESCRIPTIONS CAN BECOME MISLEADING.
AS TO THE NOISE OF DRAGGING THE BED BY COOK, I BELIEVE THAT SUCH
A NOISE WOULD BE HEARD FROM ANY ROOM UPSTAIRS IN ANY ROOM
DOWNSTAIRS, SO DOES NOT HELP TO LOCATE THE SPARE ROOM AT ALL.]
DOT SMELT THE HAY ON BREEZE BLOWING IN FROM ACROSS THE LAKE,
WHICH IS THE SIDE OF THE GUEST ROOM. DICK HEARD THE OWL FROM THE
ROOM ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE HOUSE, BUT AS THE COPPICE IS ON
HIS SIDE OF THE HOUSE, THERE ARE ALSO WOODS (DOT HID IN THEM
DURING THE ROBBERY) ON THE GUEST ROOM SIDE ALSO, AND THE OWL
COULD HAVE BEEN IN EITHER OF THESE TREE LOCATIONS, SO HIS HEARING
AN OWL PROVES NOTHING AS TO WHERE HE WAS WHEN HE HEARD IT.]
20. In Pigeon Post Nancy climbs the trellis and is heard
descending the stairs and then coming out the garden door with no
mention of running along the hall. The foot of the stairs is
near the garden door and the kitchen is suggested from these two
observations. AR wrote as he heard it in his mind, he did that
to many times to overcome his newspaper training (like Frederick
Forsythe) so I stick to my opinions that the observations be
taken as written.
[THERE IS THE QUESTION AS TO WHETHER THERE IS ONLY ONE STAIRCASE,
OR IS THERE A SECOND, TO BE USED BY THE SERVANTS TO ACCESS THE
UPPER FLOOR WHERE THEIR PERSONAL CHAMBERS ARE OVER THE KITCHEN.
IT MAY BE THAT NANCY, HAVING CLIMBED THE TRELLIS INTO HER ROOM,
PUTS HER AT THE END OF THE HOUSE NEAR THE KITCHEN, CHOSE TO COME
DOWN THE SERVANT'S STAIRS, WHICH PUTS HER AT THE GARDEN DOOR AS
SHOWN IN THE DRAWING OF NANCY AT HER WINDOW WITH THE MUMPS.
WITH THE ASSUMPTION THAT THERE ARE THESE BACK SET OF STAIRS,
THEN THE MAIN STAIRCASE DOES NOT NECESSARILY HAVE TO HAVE ITS
LOWER END AT THE OPPOSITE END OF THE HOUSE FROM WHERE ITS UPPER
END IS. THE UPPER END IS AT THE LANDING, WHICH IS AT THE FRONT
OF THE HOUSE, BETWEEN CF'S BEDROOM AND THE GUEST ROOM. THE
LOWER END OF THOSE MAIN STAIRS COULD ALSO BE THERE AT THE FRONT
DOOR, WITH A HALFWAY LANDING HALF WAY UP TO TURN ABOUT AND COME
UP TO THE TOP AT THE LANDING WHICH IS DIRECTLY OVERHEAD THE
BOTTOM OF THE STAIRS, THUS ALLOWING BOTH TOP AND BOTTOM OF THE
MAIN STAIRS TO BE AT THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE. I GRANT YOU THAT
WHEN NANCY CAME DOWN SOME STAIRS, SHE WOUND UP NEARER THE REAR OF
THE HOUSE, A LOCATION THAT WOULD BE SUPPORTED BY THE SECOND SET
OF STAIRS THAT IS OFFICIALLY DESIGNATED TO BE USED BY THE
SERVANTS.]
Finally if you go to the AutoCAD web site and do a search on Volo
View Express and then download this file I can send anyone
Autocad drawing files that you can mark up with your thoughts.
The program is easy to use and is designed for this sort of
purpose.
I also enclose a web site that shows a nautical compass. I
looked for one after reading the article in MM about SW and the
mapping. I personally think the Author is wrong and that a
compentent student could use a nautical compass to map and
Island. (Of course I may have to prove this but then what else
is there to do in life but enjoy oneself.
Swallows and Amazon's Forever.
John Nichols.
GOODNESS, JOHN, AFTER ALL THIS EFFORT IN REVERSE ENGINEERING THE
DESIGN OF THIS PLACE, WHICH OF US IS GOING TO ACTUALLY GO OUT AND
BUILD A REAL BECKFOOT? WONDER WHERE WE COULD PUT IT...
IN YOUR FLOORPLAN, IT LOOKS LIKE THERE IS A LOT OF HALL WAY
INVOLVED, IN THE SHAPE OF A CROSS, WITH TWO CHIMNEYS IN THE
CENTER OF THE HALL. THE OUTER DIMENSIONS ARE SOMEWHAT RESTRICTED
AS TO SPACE, SO AS MUCH ROOM AS POSSIBLE NEEDS TO BE ALLOCATED TO
THE ROOMS THEMSELVES. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THOSE SIDE HALLS. WHY
ARE EACH OF THE FOUR CORNER ROOMS SERVICED ON TWO SIDES BY HALLS?
THIS IS THE KIND OF "ARGUMENT" THAT IS FUN. REALLY, JUST A
DISCUSSION.
THE BALL IS BACK IN YOUR COURT, JOHN.
ED KISER, SOUTH FLORIDA