TarBoard: Recent Messages

Latest TarBoard Messages

[ Before posting it is necessary to be a registered user - the login box "pops up" when posting (Forgotten your Password ?)]

[ Start New Thread ]

are you sure this isn't your cache copy ?
Try your browser's Reload button


message 44128 - 06/25/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: NUGGET of GOLD
The miners knew that Captain Flint was not due back home for several weeks. He was still on the other side of the world, or on a slow boat. There was no hurry to run home with a single pinch of gold dust as proof. Why not stay and do the job properly?

I haven't checked my book, but I bet it was Nancy who put forward the idea of a big solid lump of gold, wanting to impress. She would not be happy with half-measures!
posted via 81.140.196.201 user Magnus.


message 44127 - 06/24/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: NUGGET of GOLD
They use the terms nugget and ingot when discussing the gold. As far as I know, a nugget is a natural piece of gold metal found in a lump whereas an ingot is a manufactured piece of gold in a regular shape and usually a standard weight. So the aim of the exercise was really to produce an ingot as they found gold coloured powder in a quartz seam rather than lumps or nuggets of gold.

Either way I think that the idea that merely a small pinch or two of gold dust was not considered dramatic enough and a good sized solid lump of it would be more impressive and besides it allowed Ransome to pass on his knowledge of charcoal making,
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 44126 - 06/24/18
From: Ed Kiser, subject: NUGGET of GOLD
In PIGEON POST, the miners wanted to make a nugget of gold so as
to have something to show Captain Flint when he returned as proof
of the presence of a gold mine near by so he would not want to go
off on a wild goose chase looking elsewhere. This involved a
"blast furnace" to get the gold dust hot enough to melt and
hopefully cool to form that nugget. The furnace required
charcoal as fuel, which they made burning a pile of wood,
following the example they saw of the Charcoal Burners
professional preparation of charcoal.

The problem with these two processes is that involved a FIRE.
Mrs. Tyson was greatly afraid of what a fire would do to their
area, including her house. Seeing their efforts at charcoal
burning, she was quite alarmed and wanted them to cease this
dangerous process and go home. So when the fire did start, from
a totally unrelated cause, she was angry and accused them of
starting this disasterous fire.

However, after the blast furnace was finally cooled, they found
the gold had all gone, lost, the crucible broken into fragments.
All that work was for nothing. But they went back to the mine
and panned a little bit more for Dick to take to Beckfoot to
test. It was this little sample that Captain Flint saw, and was
quite pleased to find it to be rich copper ore.

All it took to convince him was a tiny pinch of the metal.

Why was it thought so necessary to convert that "gold dust" into
a NUGGET?

Of course, if they had gone home with that first pinch of panned
dust, the last third of the book would not have been needed. The
suspense of the charcoal burning and the blast furnace cooking
would be missing from the plot. And when that fire did start,
they would not have been on hand to save Timothy, and to send
Sappho home with the call for help with the fire.

So it made quite a dramatic build up, the anticipation of
creating that nugget, which turned out to be not needed after
all, but it made it a great story.

posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 44125 - 06/14/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: A murder averted
Agreed. But there's cover in crowds, too. If everybody is suspect it's harder to isolate a target.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 44124 - 06/13/18
From: David Maxwell, subject: Re: A murder averted
Oh well, another book to go and buy. Got it on order already and am looking forward to reading it!
posted via 97.78.238.94 user DavidMaxwell.
message 44123 - 06/13/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: A murder averted
Exactly, Adam.
posted via 121.45.211.186 user mikefield.
message 44122 - 06/13/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: A murder averted
Exactly, Adam.
posted via 121.45.211.186 user mikefield.
message 44121 - 06/13/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: A murder averted
Being a journalist can get you accused of espionage, even if you are not a spy.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44120 - 06/13/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: A murder averted
I'm not sure if being a journalist is a good "cover" for an intelligence agent, but it's certainly a helpful one. You can and are even obliged to ask questions that, in anyone else, would seem not only prying but suspect.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 44119 - 06/13/18
From: Alan Hakim, subject: A murder averted
Reading a book about the politics of Palestine and the Middle East, A Line in the Sand by James Barr, I came across a startling event. In 1949, W F Stirling, a former associate of Lawrence of Arabia, by then The Times correspondent in Damascus, was attacked in his home by two assassins, who shot him six times. It was widely believed that Stirling also worked for MI6, and the assassins had been encouraged by France.
Miraculously, Stirling did not die. He had a friend visiting, none other than Ernest Altounyan, who operated on him within 30 minutes, extracted two of the six bullets, and decided the other four were best left in Stirling. At which point the book goes off into a startling digression about the Swallows and AR, pointing out that AR too was believed to have been a British agent.
As had Ernest, working with Stirling in Syria during WW2.
posted via 92.3.254.195 user awhakim.
message 44118 - 06/12/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: New draft maps of the Broads - for comments please
Ha. Exactly what we did -- anchored out in the Broad all night on a mudweight because we couldn't get a berth at the staithe. (We got up early and motored in next morning as soon as we saw someone leaving, then stayed another day.) You're lucky to be in the area, Peter. I'm afraid that last year's visit will have been my last.
posted via 121.45.221.3 user mikefield.
message 44117 - 06/12/18
From: Peter Wagner, subject: Re: New draft maps of the Broads - for comments please
Thanks for enlightening me. I didn't see the comments in the lower left about the two broads as the text was rather small and difficult to read. Yes, many people do refer to Malthouse as Ranworth Broad probably for the reasons you say. We have frequented the Malsters many times and always enjoyed it. We tend to moor out in the broad under mud weight as it can get busy and noisy by the staithe. We then row/sail across in the small sailing dinghy we tow.
posted via 94.250.228.202 user PeterW.
message 44116 - 06/11/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: New draft maps of the Broads - for comments please
Well spotted in both cases, Peter.

Taking your points in reverse, yep, the new Candle Dyke was indeed Kendal Dyke when Dick quanted his way into it. I don't know how or when the named got changed, but I assume the new name is a lazy corruption of the old one.

Regarding Malthouse/Ranworth, one of the footnotes (down near the scale) says that this was the way Ransome named them (actually incorrectly, as you say). Because the maps are based on his two Broads books I've hung on to the names the way he used them.

I think Malthouse Broad is actually often known as Ranworth Broad because it contains Ranworth Staithe and the few houses that comprise Ranworth -- which of course weren't on the 'other' Broad because it was private (as it still is, indeed.) But note that the pub that's there was the Malsters Arms (now just the Malsters), not the Ranworth Arms or whatever.

When I was there last year I made a point of asking the people at the observation place on the (real) Ranworth Broad about this, and they told me that very many people confused the two.

But your comments are very valuable, and many thanks for them, because they show you gave critical thought to it and that was exactly what I wanted.
posted via 121.45.221.3 user mikefield.


message 44115 - 06/11/18
From: Peter Wagner, subject: Re: New draft maps of the Broads - for comments please
I'm only familiar with the northern Broads as I've sailed them umpteen times, but I think you have Malthouse and Ranworth Broads interchanged. Just above Potter Heigham you have Kendal Dyke. This is now know as Candle Dyke - not sure if this name is a modern corruption of Kendal Dyke though.

posted via 94.250.228.202 user PeterW.
message 44114 - 06/09/18
From: Mike Field, subject: New draft maps of the Broads - for comments please
Long-term TarBoard contributors might remember some years ago that I posted draft maps of the Broads for comment. The intention was to have them corrected before they were added to 'All Things Ransome', to join my earlier maps for downloading.

Life has intervened for quite some time, but comments I received then were duly noted and amendments made accordingly. New drafts have now been uploaded to my website, and I would be most grateful if the eagle eyes of TarBoarders could point out any details that remain to be corrected.

By and large, I have attempted to draw the maps to portray the district as it would have been in the 1930s, and confined myself to showing those part of roads and railways that then existed and that were either known to have been used by the children, or where they were located in proximity to the various waterways. (So, for instance, the road from Acle to Yarmouth is only shown near each end, not for its full length.) My intention in doing this is to keep the focus on the Broads and the rivers themselves.

AR drew two maps for his Broads books -- of the northern rivers and the southern rivers respectively -- and after some experimentation I determined that this was indeed the best way to do them. So here they are. (I apologise for the fuzziness -- these are simply screen grabs. The final versions will be better.) Any comments would be most gratefully received.

Northern Rivers draft map

Southern Rivers draft map

posted via 121.45.221.3 user mikefield.
message 44113 - 06/09/18
From: Mark Purtill, subject: Re: "In the Footsteps of the Swallows and Amazons" query
It seems Alan is right. I was at the IAGM, though I didn't take the book. However, on one of the walks (the copper mines walk, which turned out to not have an official guide), one of the other members had a copy and I asked her about it. Unfortunately I didn't get her name, but she said that in general the walks are still very usable, though there may be a few missing landmarks here and there.
posted via 50.54.218.248 user Zeggpold.
message 44112 - 06/08/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Dick & Dorothea
More changes in relations in the books:
PP: "Squashy Hat" their hated rival in the search for gold who turns out to be the missing Timothy
BS: The Coots are regarded as guilty most of the people in Horning
GN: The McGintys, father and son, who become allies at the end


posted via 202.154.143.166 user hugo.


message 44111 - 06/07/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: 'Sea Bear's' binoculars
By George, they've got it!

Thanks, Adam and Peter, you've solved it for me. There's no joint-focussing knob as such -- each eyepiece is focussed separately. And the knob at the front has nothing to do with focussing at all -- it just locks the barrels the right distance apart to suit the user.

I'm glad I got up this morning....
posted via 124.171.137.184 user mikefield.


message 44110 - 06/07/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: 'Sea Bear's' binoculars
I have my grandfather's binoculars which are pre WW2 Zeiss model and look a lot like the one in the picture. The eyepieces are individually focussed, there is no common focus of both eyepieces together.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44109 - 06/07/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Dick & Dorothea
Changes in relations between groups is a theme in several of the books:
SA: The Swallows and Amazons are initially enemies, as is Captain Flint and the Swallows
SW: The Swallows & Amazons and the Mastodon/Don; then after they become friends the Eels (Daisy) initially see the Swallows & Amazons as enemies
CC: though there is no initial rivalry between the Ds and the Coots
WH: The Swallows and the Ds (as mentioned). Dorothy is self-conscious about the others' opinions of them, unlike Dick.
Hugh Brogan refers somewhere to the "humane comedy" of the books, alluding to the 19th-century novels of Honoré de Balzac?
I certainly go back to PM, perhaps through having to wear glasses through school like Dick!

posted via 202.154.143.166 user hugo.
message 44108 - 06/07/18
From: Peter Wagner, subject: Re: 'Sea Bear's' binoculars
I suspect the knob is just a locking screw to set the interpupillary distance. Each eyepiece appears to have its own knurled focussing ring.
posted via 94.250.228.202 user PeterW.
message 44107 - 06/06/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Dick & Dorothea
It strikes me as very likely. In my (admittedly limited) experience, the young of our species are refreshingly curious about each other without so much of the preconceptions as the adults. I think AR's representation of the Ds' skating ability, and how it affected the others' acceptance of the newcomers, was both a plausible reinforcement of the story's realism and a wonderful nuance for the story.
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.
message 44106 - 06/06/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: 'Sea Bear's' binoculars
Thank(s), Peter. :) I did a google search for images of Old Binoculars as a result of your comment. Of all the photos that came up (dozens), all the straight refractive ones (telescopic? -- I forget the correct name) seemed to have focussing knobs in the middle, half-way along the barrels. And all the true (prismatic) binoculars had them where I would have expected to see them, also in the middle but closer to the eye-pieces. It looks like the purpose in all cases is to move the eye-piece tubes in and out so as to adjust the focus.

There were however a couple of pairs (including a correct-vintage pre-war Zeiss) that more-or-less fit the 'Sea Bear' description, with the focussing knob at the front of the instrument. Frustratingly though, I still can't work out how the damn' knob works.... Surely it controls the eye-pieces? But how? It only seems to be fastened to the body....

.
posted via 124.171.154.201 user mikefield.
message 44105 - 06/06/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Dick & Dorothea
While the Walkers are a delightful family, is it not likely that the dynamic Nancy would have been intrigued by the very different Callums, with their academic London background so alien from her own, and so unlike the Swallows'?
posted via 82.132.216.196 user Mike_Jones.
message 44104 - 06/06/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: AR downloads was Re: AR Reference No. 2
Adam is correct in implying that AR's books are out of copyright in Canada. They are also out of copyright in very many other countries as well. But on the other hand they are still copyright in the US, the UK, and other countries too. If you want to download these books legally, you should check what the copyright law actually is in your country.

I don't think anyone is encouraging anyone else to violate copyright laws anywhere, but because this is actually quite an important question in its own right I've made a separate post on the topic. See the link below. There is also a link in that post to the copyright periods that apply in over 200 other countries. Your comments on that post are welcome.

posted via 124.171.154.201 user mikefield.
message 44103 - 06/06/18
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: 'Sea Bear's' binoculars
I think what has happened is that AR has, probably inadvertently, shortened the mounting tubes for the eye-pieces. I had binoculars like these once - prismatic, and focussed by wide milled rings just behind the eye-pieces. I think they were French, but I have just seen an online image of old Russian binoculars (or a Russian binocular as I think is more correct, if pedantic) and they (it) looks very like the one(s) AR drew.
posted via 86.154.76.187 user Peter_H.
message 44102 - 06/05/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Copyright, Distributed Proofreaders, The Faded Page, and the Gutenberg Press.
I posed a question three days ago (below) about 'Sea Bear's' binoculars. No-one posted a reply before the thread was diverted to another topic, so I assume that no-one has any more knowledge about those binoculars than I do. (I'm still hoping, however.)

However, Adam's comments there about copyright are important and I think deserve a thread on their own, which is why I'm posting this.

The original intention of "copyright" was to protect the author's rights to a work for his/her benefit and the benefit of their immediate beneficiaries. Formulators of the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works, signed originally in 1886, considered that the value of a copyright would have dropped (and also been diluted) sufficiently within a period of half a century of the author's death that it could then be allowed to lapse without very much, or any, detriment to the rights of the author or his estate.

The Berne Convention is concerned with the intellectual property rights of a variety of such works, but here I'm only concerned with literary works, and in particular with the written works of AR. The Convention stipulates a minimum period of 50 years for a written work's protection after the death of the author, or of the work's publication (essentially, whichever comes last). Countries are free to increase this minimum period within their own territories should they wish. Canada, complying with the original Convention, sticks with the stipulated 50 years. Other countries have extended their copyright periods up to double that. Thanks to Walt Disney's wanting to further protect its products, and Sonny Bono's trying to get 'perpetual copyright' (!) for his own stuff -- they were both Republicans and therefore protectionist :) -- the US now has its own "Mickey Mouse Protection Act". (Really.) This Act extends copyright to 95 years in the US (and for some works to 120 years from creation). In the EU, some works that had been in the public domain have become retrospectively re-copyrighted by individual acts of individual parliaments....

In my view, this matter of "copyrighting" has now become a minefield of dogs' breakfasts (no, Roger didn't write that) and a new, universally-applicable, Berne Convention is badly required.

Now to the matter at hand. Distributed Proofreaders was founded in 2000 as an independent site to assist Project Gutenberg in producing public domain works for reading electronically. It became an official Project Gutenberg site in 2002. In particular, Distributed Proofreaders Canada (DPC, independent, founded in 2007, for which I've been working and to which I'll now refer specifically) first uploads its completed works to The Faded Page website, from where they eventually go to Gutenberg Canada. Works are made available in a variety of electronic formats, including UTF-8, HTML, Epub, Mobi, and PDF. Canada's is the most active proof-reading organisation I think because of its shortest or equal-shortest copyright-protection period, and hence its potential inclusion of the largest number of public-domain works.

Proofreading for the organisation is carried out by members all over the world, demonstrating the utility and beauty of the internet for facilitating cooperative work. The process consists firstly of locating works of interest to the instigators that are in the public domain in Canada, scanning them using OCR, then uploading the scanned documents to DPC. At that point they're then made available to anyone anywhere who wants to help, whereupon each individual page is proof-read three times and proof-formatted twice before being made available to other readers for "smooth reading" (looking for the slight possibility of remaining errors, and for the general flow of the work). After that it's released by its project manager and made available on The Faded Page, and eventually Gutenberg Canada, for free download by anyone, anywhere.

As Adam rightly points out, because of that minefield of different copyright restrictions referred to, The Faded Page draws the attention of copyright issues to its readers --

"These books are public domain in Canada (because we follow the Canadian copyright laws), but if you are in another country, you should satisfy yourself that you are not breaking the copyright laws of your own country by downloading them."

So to wrap this up as far as AR's works are concerned, this means that, as he died in 1967, his twelve S&A books are indeed all candidates for availability on that site. (In fact, nine have already been released and the remainder are presently being worked on.) But 'Coots In The North' will not yet be available because, being published posthumously in 1988, its Canadian copyright will not expire until 2038.

If you live in Canada or any other country that recognises a fifty-year copyright period, electronic download of all twelve books will shortly be possible, and legal. If you live in the UK or the USA, download will of course still be possible but will not be legal; elsewhere it may not; so if you download anyway you will take on yourself whatever risk that might entail.

This is such an important and now complicated topic that any constructive comments would be most welcome.

posted via 124.171.134.77 user mikefield.
message 44101 - 06/05/18
From: Mike Field, subject: 'Sea Bear's' binoculars (was "The Faded Page")
No-one posted a reply to my original question about binoculars before this thread was diverted to another topic, so I assume that no-one has any more knowledge about those binoculars than I do.

However, Adam's comments about copyright are important and I think deserve a thread on their own, which is why I've posted a new topic, Copyright, Distributed Proofreaders, The Faded Page, and the Gutenberg Press. I'd be grateful if anyone who wanted to further pursue the question of copyright do so there, rather than here, just in case we get a late binocular-aficionado who can help me with the original question.
posted via 124.171.134.77 user mikefield.


message 44100 - 06/05/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Dick & Dorothea
When I first read WH (and then CC and BS) many many years ago I was very taken by it not just being set in a proper winter with plenty of snow, but with the introduction of Dick and Dorothea.

As has been speculated upon in various publications, these two are seen as representations of two sides of AR’s own self. For me, particularly in WH it is that they were ‘outsiders’ being welcomed in to the group – especially by Nancy, which is some ways goes against the person AR had previously portrayed her as.

They are both, I think, my favourite characters and I always enjoy reading how amazed all the others are when they begin skating of the frozen tarn in WH, removing any doubts as to why they should not join the expedition.
posted via 95.144.241.223 user MTD.


message 44099 - 06/05/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: "The Faded Page" was Re: 'Sea Bear's' binoculars
By one of those quirks of fate I came across this Website the day before the post appeared here, and I wondered about it's status. Thanks for explaining what the position is.
posted via 95.144.241.223 user MTD.
message 44098 - 06/05/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: "The Faded Page" and copyright
New Zealand still has a copyright period of "50 years after death" like Canada rather than 70 years, though the United States and the European Union have gone to 70 years (which will cover most Tarboaders, apart from Canada and New Zealand). And looking at the Wikipedia list below, some European countries like Belarus and Monaco plus various African, Asian and Oceanian countries (eg Fiji) are still 50y. A few have gone for longer copyright: India (60y), Ivory Coast (99y) and Mexico (100y).
posted via 202.154.143.166 user hugo.
message 44097 - 06/05/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Re:
RE

posted via 202.154.143.166 user hugo.
message 44096 - 06/05/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: "The Faded Page" was Re: 'Sea Bear's' binoculars
The link that Mike Field has posted for "The Faded Page" takes you to a Canadian website. Under Canadian copyright law books published before 1968 are out of copyright IN CANADA. They are not out of copyright elsewhere in the world.

The site has a warning "These books are public domain in Canada (because we follow the Canadian copyright laws), but if you are in another country, you should satisfy yourself that you are not breaking the copyright laws of your own country by downloading them."

All Things Ransome and TarBoard are not domiciled in Canada and we work very hard to ensure that we do not infringe on anyone's copyright. Therefore we do not want anyone to believe that we support illegal downloading of material.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 44095 - 06/05/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: AR downloads was Re: AR Reference No. 2
The link that Mike Field has posted for "AR downloads" takes you to a Canadian website. Under Canadian copyright law books published before 1968 are out of copyright IN CANADA. They are not out of copyright elsewhere in the world.

The site has a warning "These books are public domain in Canada (because we follow the Canadian copyright laws), but if you are in another country, you should satisfy yourself that you are not breaking the copyright laws of your own country by downloading them."

All Things Ransome and TarBoard are not domiciled in Canada and we work very hard to ensure that we do not infringe on anyone's copyright. Therefore we do not want anyone to believe that we support illegal downloading of material.

posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 44094 - 06/03/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: "Crag"fast sheep rescued
And here's another sheep rescue, even more dramatic:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cornwall-44347000

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 44093 - 06/03/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Great northern divers
Photos Dick might have taken on the loch....
posted via 124.171.134.77 user mikefield.
message 44092 - 06/03/18
From: Mike Field, subject: 'Sea Bear's' binoculars
It doesn't seem to matter how often I read the books, I always come away with something new.

I'm presently proof-reading 'Great Northern?' for The Faded Page (where most of the AR novels are now available for free download), and I've just noticed a sketch of binoculars as a chapter-break, presumably binoculars from the Sea Bear. Their focussing knob is at the forward end of the glasses, not near the eye-pieces where it has always been in any binoculars I've ever seen. Surely they didn't work by moving the objective lenses, instead of the eye-pieces? Can anyone shed any light on the construction of this particular instrument please?

[ Image ]

posted via 124.171.134.77 user mikefield.


message 44091 - 06/01/18
From: Lankyflier1400, subject: Re: "In the Footsteps of the Swallows and Amazons" query
I realise that this is a bit late to be useful for the TARS AGM, but I have been using the book recently as a guide to walk around sites relating to Arthur Ransome and it is still remarkably accurate. I suppose things don't change very quickly in the south lakes! There are a few minor changes. For instance, the Dogs House has now been refurbished and looks liveable in with a new window and door. Also, there is a Swallows and Amazons carving of Captain Flint walking the plank near the lake on the shore at low bank ground farm.
posted via 81.141.171.44 user Lankyflier1400.
message 44090 - 05/26/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: "Crag"fast sheep rescued
That just confirms my opinion that sheep are the moths of the animal world, just as pigeons are the sheep of the avian world and moths are the sheep of the insect world...
posted via 124.171.134.77 user mikefield.
message 44089 - 05/26/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: AR Reference No. 2
Dave, this book is about a series of rescue attempts in a light plane by an airline pilot of his retired flying instructor, who has himself flown a rescue mission in Western Tasmania but crashed. In Shute's sometimes-typical and somewhat-metaphysical style, the older pilot's life is lived in dreams by the younger one.

In spite of its geographical setting, this is not particularly an 'Australian' story like, say, The Far Country, Beyond The Black Stump, In The Wet, or others, and nor is it one of his best stories anyway, but it's still a good read. (Let me know if you can't find a copy and I'll mail mine down.)

By the way, and just to get back on the AR theme, nine of the twelve AR books are now available for free download as e-books from The Faded Page; with the remaining three currently being proof-read and to be available shortly.

Cheers, Mike

posted via 124.171.134.77 user mikefield.
message 44088 - 05/26/18
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: AR Reference No. 2
I thought that I had read most of Shute's stories (a favourite author), but I don't recall 'The Rainbow and The Rose'. What is a brief outline of the story?
Dave
posted via 120.158.157.3 user David.
message 44087 - 05/26/18
From: Robert Hill, subject: "Crag"fast sheep rescued
BBC news - see link
posted via 109.180.193.215 user eclrh.
message 44086 - 05/25/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: AR Reference No. 2
... and in a slightly different vein I've just finished reading Nevil Shute's 1958 novel The Rainbow And The Rose, on the very last page of which the narrator is quoted as reading Coot Club to his young son at bed-time.
posted via 124.171.134.77 user mikefield.
message 44085 - 05/22/18
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: "In the Footsteps of the Swallows and Amazons" query
I for one have never been a registered user of Facebook, Twitter or any of the other sites usually meant by the phrase "social media". I stick to special-purpose forums such as Tarboard.
posted via 109.180.191.172 user eclrh.
message 44084 - 05/21/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: "In the Footsteps of the Swallows and Amazons" query
I agree, David. TarBoard can go quiet for a couple of weeks at a time, and then fire right back up, as you say -- and indeed as it has just now.

And as far as FaceBook goes, despite missing some lovely stuff about the Broads and about narrowboats, I left it forever with few regrets after the Cambridge Analytica scandal.

For me, TarBoard has always been, and will continue to be, the go-to site for all things Ransome.

[ Image ]

posted via 124.171.134.77 user mikefield.


message 44083 - 05/21/18
From: David Maxwell, subject: Re: "In the Footsteps of the Swallows and Amazons" query
It seems that from time to time, Tarboard slows down for a while but it has always picked back up.
posted via 97.78.238.94 user DavidMaxwell.
message 44082 - 05/21/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: "In the Footsteps of the Swallows and Amazons" query
I have a foot in both camps, but my heart and head are with Tarboard. With Tarboard I know where I am; on Facebook I am bombarded with posts not just about AR, but also my old school and old college, never mind family members. The coinage there is getting debased.
posted via 88.110.67.150 user Mike_Jones.
message 44081 - 05/20/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: "In the Footsteps of the Swallows and Amazons" query
I'm afraid I agree Alex, TarBoard has always been a place for an exchange of views etc where FB always strikes me as just 'showing off'!
posted via 95.144.241.223 user MTD.
message 44080 - 05/20/18
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: "In the Footsteps of the Swallows and Amazons" query
Yes, things are quieter here but not totally defunct. As for the original question, I haven't been to the Lakes for a few years, but I would be very surprised if Claire's routes are badly affected. As you will see when you get there, the landscape doesn't have a lot of scope for major changes to routes.
In any case, the tourist office is bound to have up-to-date guides to suggested walks. Have a wonderful time!
posted via 86.148.217.128 user awhakim.
message 44079 - 05/20/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: "In the Footsteps of the Swallows and Amazons" query
I'm afraid I don't have answers for you. Very sorry.

I just wanted to mention that participation in this once-fairly-active forum seems to have evaporated. I suspect everyone has headed to Facebook. (I avoid FB, so I can't say for sure.) Rather too bad, but... That's evolution for you.

Best of luck,
Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 44078 - 05/17/18
From: Mark Purtill, subject: "In the Footsteps of the Swallows and Amazons" query
Hi, everyone. Long-time occasional lurker, first time poster here.

I'm attending the TARS IAGM in Coniston coming up soon, and have a bit of extra time on the ends. I'm wondering if the walks in "In the Footsteps of the Swallows and Amazons" by Claire Kendall-Price are still doable. I see my copy is nearly 25 years old (eep!); around hear any walks that old would now be going through parking lots, but I'm hoping the Lake District is not in such dire straights. Can anyone enlighten me?

Thanks in advance for any help.
posted via 50.54.220.51 user Zeggpold.


message 44077 - 05/16/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Dorothea and Breaking the fourth wall
Dorothea reads some of the (still unfinished) "Outlaw of the Broads" to Titty while the well is being dug (PP16) and "the afternoon slipped by in literary criticism .... Dorothea read to the end of her notebooks, and explained what was still to come, and had gone back to the first chapter to remind Titty of the little bits that were going to be important later on .... "
posted via 203.96.134.66 user hugo.
message 44076 - 05/07/18
From: Jo, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
Cormorant Island too, in SA - they see it and comment on it, so that we already know about it when the burglars bury Capt Flint's trunk on it.
posted via 5.80.139.246 user Jo.
message 44075 - 05/07/18
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
And there are several places where something is mentioned which is significant on rereading:

That's considered a key element of good style.

posted via 109.180.191.172 user eclrh.
message 44074 - 05/06/18
From: Jo, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
Exactly, Andy....

posted via 5.80.139.246 user Jo.
message 44073 - 05/05/18
From: Andy, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
Oooh - Winter Holiday - "It would be unfair to draw Nancy's Pumpkin Face".

Andy
posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.


message 44072 - 05/05/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
And there are several places where something is mentioned which is significant on rereading:

The Swallows see a sharp-pointed rock on the port bow (SD3). Then (just before the shipwreck) "Remember the rock we saw yesterday .... the Pike Rock" (SD5).

Nancy thinks that "it was a jolly good thing that Captain Flint was abroad for the winter" (just before he arrives; WH20). Though he "has his uses" for the North Polar Expedition!

posted via 203.96.142.177 user hugo.


message 44071 - 05/04/18
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
There are several places the author hints of what is to happen by having a character say. "Nothing can go wrong" or words to that effect.
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.
message 44070 - 05/03/18
From: Andy, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
Well spotted!

Andy
posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.


message 44069 - 05/03/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
The best example of "fourth-walling" I've ever seen was Ian Richardson's playing of Francis Urquhart in the House of Cards TV trilogy. And he did it exactly as Mike describes AR doing it -- as if he were there (which of course in this case his character was), observing and commenting on what was happening.
posted via 124.171.134.77 user mikefield.
message 44068 - 05/02/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
Giving this more thought yesterday, it occured to me that AR writes as if he is there observing and so sometimes he lets slip that this is the case. The good thing is that he never takes part of steps in, no matter what happens!
posted via 95.146.165.153 user MTD.
message 44067 - 05/02/18
From: Jo, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
There is a hint of fourth wall in WH, at the end of chapter 23: 'If it had only come off, this particular discovery of the North Pole would have been the most orderly bit of Arctic exploration in history.'
posted via 5.80.139.246 user Jo.
message 44066 - 05/02/18
From: Duncan, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
There's quite a lot of that, especially in the (abandoned) original opening of Peter Duck, of course. Like the "this is what it's like when it's really pitchy dark" illustration.

I think that is almost the opposite of the "fourth wall" in that it is putting the writing of the story into the realm of fiction too (especially with PD and ML, I suppose). It's a fairy-tale method of course, like Old Peter telling tales to his grandchildren, or Tolkien being handed the Baggins' book by an old hobbit and translating it for a modern audience.

I'm fascinated by it, not least because, in the hands of AR and JRRT it seems like rather an old-fashioned, or rather timeless approach to storytelling, yet also in the 20th century similar devices in the hands of writers for adults were seen as highly contemporary and experimental.

posted via 5.70.69.169 user Duncan.


message 44065 - 05/01/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
Once AR started doing all the illustrations Nancy was credited with assisting him, so in a sense she became 'the voice' of the author.

It is something I hadn't noticed before, and gives a lot to think about.
posted via 95.146.165.153 user MTD.


message 44064 - 05/01/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
I can't think of any after these two n his first S and A novel, but isn't Captain Nancy occasionally given an existence as the author's collaborator, a sort of inverted fourth wall?
posted via 92.18.214.72 user Mike_Jones.
message 44063 - 05/01/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Breaking the fourth wall
Someone on the AR Facebook group recently mentioned this quote from S&A Chapter III...

Susan unhooked the traveller and she and Roger together brought down the sail and the yard. Titty with the crockery basket was well out of the way under the folds of the sail. All this happened much quicker than I can tell it, and when the sail was down Swallow still had enough way on her to slide in towards the beach.

...which made me think of this similar instance (which struck me as odd, as a child, that the author should address me so) from S&A Chapter XII...

Mate Susan, Able-seaman Titty, and the Boy Roger watched the lights and sang out the moment the top one showed a little to left or right of the lower one. With so many look-out men Captain John might have been content, but just once he looked round for himself and saw the two lights one above the other like the stop called a colon, which I am just going to make: there, like that.

These two are examples of 'breaking the fourth wall'. Can you think of others?

posted via 86.177.99.162 user Magnus.
message 44062 - 04/26/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Or none at all, as we haven't any to fret about.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 44061 - 04/25/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Of course Dave, the money side has to be a major consideration!
posted via 95.146.165.153 user MTD.
message 44060 - 04/25/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
The "look and feel" could indeed be kept if we wrote a brand new system, I'm sure. But we would really rather find an existing, supported offering that can be tailored to fit via parameters or the equivalent (maybe plug-ins) rather than user mainline code development and modifications.

And having no money we want something which is and freely available, of course.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 44059 - 04/25/18
From: Woll, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Ed, don't worry, that won't happen. One of the specs for a new version would be "Must work for Ed Kiser"!

Regards,
Woll
posted via 84.51.138.122 user Woll.


message 44058 - 04/24/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
As an 'old' programmer (1980s to the mid 1990s) I can understand that, I'm sure the 'look and feel' could be kept on a system that was much easier to maintain.
posted via 2.30.186.56 user MTD.
message 44057 - 04/24/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Glad to hear that!
posted via 2.30.186.56 user MTD.
message 44056 - 04/24/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
I with you on that point Ed, I have various PCs etc but the one I use the most (and like the most) runs Windows XP!
posted via 2.30.186.56 user MTD.
message 44055 - 04/24/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Yes, I must say that I also like the text-only (and therefore now rather-old-fashioned) look of TarBoard the way it is. I'd be sorry for the software to be changed -- unless of course it could be made to reproduce the present appearance.
posted via 124.171.64.236 user mikefield.
message 44054 - 04/24/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
I just checked out of curiosity. If you google Arthur Ransome, "All Things Ransome" is currently sixth on the page after two Wikipedia articles (Arthur Ransome and Swallows and Amazons series), two Guardian articles on Ransome and the TARS website, so I don't think our profile needs much raising.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44053 - 04/24/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
It is certainly not our aim to introduce advertising, we continuously get unsolicited (spam) offers to raise our internet profile and lift us up the Google results page to maximise our earnings. So far we have resisted all these blandishments.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44052 - 04/24/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
One of the things that we are very aware of is the degree to which TarBoard users like the current design and ease of use. We hope to preserve that or as close to it as we can, but as Adam noted the current TarBoard (written in PERL as it happens) is old, cranky, and hard to keep running. There is certainly a chance that, sooner or later, a key necessity won't be supported any more and we'll be forced to abandon it.

If so it would be really good to have found and moved to an alternative which meets everyone's approval but doesn't require a skilled programmer to keep it running and modify the code.

posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 44051 - 04/24/18
From: David Maxwell, subject: Re: Easter quiz
Weird old fashioned phrases can vary depending on the age of the person, the time period they grew up in and which side of the pond they live in. It has been mentioned from time to time on this board the difference between the Queens English and the Presidents English (though the current holder of the office in Washington has his own peculiar idioms!).
posted via 97.78.238.94 user DavidMaxwell.
message 44050 - 04/24/18
From: David Maxwell, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
I'll have to say that I enjoy the format, lack of advertising and the ease of use. I hope that all those features do not go away in a future edition of the board.
posted via 97.78.238.94 user DavidMaxwell.
message 44049 - 04/24/18
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
"New and Improved" - What we use today on TARBOARD works on my current level of machine (WINDOWS XP). My fear is that the NEWER TARBOARD will consider my machine to be "obsolete" and therefor no longer "supported" which takes me out of the participation. That would be a bummer.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 44048 - 04/24/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Currently, I would say it is more in the thinking stage. The current software is very old in computer terms and is "hand built" but has been maintained and so far has been reliable. However, eventually software stops being supported by newer technology and Woll our technical expert has been looking into things. However, real life also intrudes. I will leave it to Woll to explain any further if he thinks I have done an inadequate job!
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44047 - 04/23/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Adam - thanks for posting those.

Interested to see that there are going to be consideration of a 'New TarBoard', is this just at the 'thinking' stage or are there already some ideas on the table?
posted via 2.30.186.56 user MTD.


message 44046 - 04/23/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
The Minutes of the latest AGM (held by Skype), the Chairman's Report and the 2017 Accounts for All Things Ransome, the organization which owns and operates TarBoard and the All Things Ransome website, can now be found on the All Things Ransome website by clicking on the link and scrolling to the bottom of the page.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44045 - 04/19/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Easter quiz
And the origin of this peculiar phrase?

One website says "eggs is eggs" might be a corruption of the phrase "x is x" from a mathematical sort of deduction. Seems reasonable until you see other websites claiming the phrase appeared in a dictionary of slang published in 1699. Do 17th century mathematicians use slang? Do the sort of people who use slang, know about mathematical formulae?

To kick the debate off... what other weird old fashioned phrases can you find in the 12 books?

posted via 86.177.99.162 user Magnus.


message 44044 - 04/05/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Easter quiz
Nancy was the first name that came to mind when I read the question, and someone in the Broads books. I also thought of Roger but wasn't sure of any of them.
posted via 2.30.186.56 user MTD.
message 44043 - 04/05/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Easter quiz
Two out of three ain't bad!

Never thought of Roger.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 44042 - 04/05/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Easter quiz
As Easter begins today, why not a little quiz based on a suitable theme?

Since you are probably already aware that GN uses the word "egg" 467 times, and BS only 15, we need another eggy question...

Using your excellent memories, and referring to paper only (no ebooks!), can you tell me which three characters use the phrase "as sure as eggs is eggs"?

Just simply reply here with "Joe Bill Pete" or whatever three names you think likely, and we can see who got it right on Sunday.
posted via 86.177.99.162 user Magnus.


message 44041 - 04/05/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Easter quiz
Apologies for the quiz answers being late. I had the unexpected sensation of not having to work for a few days, and actually turned the laptop off!

Swallowdale, Chapter VI

"You’ve got a jolly good crew," said Nancy. "If they hadn’t coiled your anchor-rope as it should be coiled it would have jammed, as sure as eggs is eggs, and you might never have been able to throw it clear."

Secret Water, Chapter VII

Roger was pointing. "A boat. I saw it. It was just going behind the other island."
The others looked up the Creek where Roger was pointing.
"We can’t see it now," said Roger. "It simply disappeared into the land."
"Are you sure?" said John.
"As eggs is eggs," said Roger.

The Big Six, Chapter XII

"Not going to be had that way twice," said Joe. "If anybody see us with them boats they’ll say we cast 'em off, same as George Owdon say when we tie up that cutter that were caught in the trees."
"Sure as eggs is eggs they’ll say it’s us," said Bill, who was hurriedly setting the sail.

posted via 86.177.99.162 user Magnus.


message 44040 - 04/01/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Easter quiz
I can't remember who, but I've an idea its in one of the Broads books.
posted via 2.30.186.56 user MTD.
message 44039 - 04/01/18
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Easter quiz
I think that it was old Mr. Swainson, the inveterate singer of folk songs.
posted via 120.148.62.46 user David.
message 44038 - 04/01/18
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Easter quiz
That has got me thinking

Nancy
Mrs Dixon
Jacky
posted via 92.16.48.141 user MartinH.


message 44037 - 03/30/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Easter quiz
Nancy
Bill

????


posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 44036 - 03/30/18
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Easter quiz
Not disclosing the answer, but an observation. The phrase as quoted is found only once, but a shorter version of "eggs is eggs" is found three times.
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.
message 44035 - 03/30/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Easter quiz
As Easter begins today, why not a little quiz based on a suitable theme?

Since you are probably already aware that GN uses the word "egg" 467 times, and BS only 15, we need another eggy question...

Using your excellent memories, and referring to paper only (no ebooks!), can you tell me which three characters use the phrase "as sure as eggs is eggs"?

Just simply reply here with "Joe Bill Pete" or whatever three names you think likely, and we can see who got it right on Sunday.
posted via 81.156.118.120 user Magnus.


message 44034 - 03/28/18
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Watershed
Now you have reminded me of another book I ought to re-read.
posted via 92.16.48.141 user MartinH.
message 44033 - 03/28/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Watershed
Perhaps Titty had already read "Riddle of the Sands" from the shelf on Captain Flint's houseboat? I seem to remember the watershed was a critical plot point? Or at least the general mapping of the sands was, of which the watershed was a notable part.
posted via 81.156.118.120 user Magnus.
message 44032 - 03/27/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Watershed
I probably learned the word from Swallowdale, I don't remember it in any of my geography classes. Perhaps we came across it when I was learning to map read the Ordnance Survey 1" to the mile maps.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44031 - 03/27/18
From: Edwin M. Kiser, subject: Re: Watershed
"WATERSHED" - Just another little piece of that amazingly large list of educational growth given to us by reading these twelve stories, either in the time of our youth, or as an adult. We may not have realized the learning process that was happening during those readings, but it all becomes a part of who we are.

My grandchild signals by flashlight to me from next door, aving learned Morse from me, who learned it from Winter Holiday.

I sailed my four meter catamarin without any teacher other than Ransome.

On outings with my Boy Scout friends, I build the campfire, heating my pot well before any other, because Susan showed me how.

I studied the constellations because Dick thought it was important.

The list goes on and on...

Thanks Arthur, you game much meaning to my life.

Ed Kiser [ kisered@aol.com ]

posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 44030 - 03/27/18
From: MarkD, subject: Re: Watershed
I thought that usage was a bit precocious too - I remember having to look it up as a child, and then being familiar with the term when we covered the topic in geography a couple of years later at a similar age to you.
posted via 85.255.233.83 user MarkD.
message 44029 - 03/27/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Watershed
Thanks Martin. I remember Titty having trouble with the compass, but that reference managed to pass me by!
posted via 2.30.186.56 user MTD.
message 44028 - 03/27/18
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Watershed
Mike, it's in Chapter 34 "Stretcher-Party". Page 410 in my ancient Cape edition.

I'm often dipping into the books, sometimes just to refresh my memory over a point. This time I decided to re-read all of SD.
posted via 92.16.48.141 user MartinH.


message 44027 - 03/26/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Watershed
Well Martin, I just had to look it up (I'm 64!) as I was totally unaware of that particular meaning of the word.

I've read SD many times but can't recall that usage at all, when does it occur? (Perhaps its time to read it again.)
posted via 2.30.186.56 user MTD.


message 44026 - 03/26/18
From: Martin Honor, subject: Watershed
I've just re-read SD.

"Watershed," said Titty, as if she had been waiting for the word, "I ought to have thought of that at once, instead of thinking it was the compass getting bumped."

Would it have been normal for a 9 year old of that time to know about such things? I'm pretty sure I didn't do that until I was about 11 or 12, when we covered rivers and drainage. I know when I first read SD I had to ask what the term meant.
posted via 92.16.48.141 user MartinH.


message 44025 - 03/18/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Winter Holiday 2018
I've just back from a sledging expedition. My youngest daughter was goading me to try to slope which ended in a large melted/muddy puddle. There was a sudden bump half-way down where I nearly lost the tip of my tongue biting it hard.

Whilst out there I recalled the one bit of Winter Holiday I never fail to implement in my life...

“Have you gone through the ice?” said Dorothea.
“Only snow,” said Roger, “tobogganing. Dry enough now.”
“You wouldn’t have been wet at all if you’d dusted the snow off before letting it melt into your stockings,” said Susan.

posted via 81.156.112.140 user Magnus.


message 44024 - 03/17/18
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Winter Holiday 2018
A lady in New Hampshire posted a photo on 'Lakelandcam' of a wooden ruler immersed in snow up to 16inches, which she no doubt thought unnecessarily excessive.
posted via 120.148.55.32 user David.
message 44023 - 03/17/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Winter Holiday 2018
It looks like the "beast from the east" is back today! My garden (Southern UK) has just turned white. I cant believe that I have never wanted to measure the depth myself. See chapter VI...

Why, the first thing he had done that morning when they had run out into the glittering snow had been to put a scrap of snow on a bit of glass, so that he could look at the crystals under his microscope. And then he had stuck a bit of stick upright in the snow and made a notch on it, and taken it indoors to borrow Mrs Dixon’s measuring tape to see exactly what depth of snowfall there had been.

posted via 81.156.112.140 user Magnus.


message 44022 - 03/03/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Winter Holiday 2018
Tony Richards has had some good Winter Holiday photos on Lakelandcam this week.
posted via 203.214.8.215 user mikefield.
message 44021 - 03/02/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Winter Holiday 2018
Have Lake Windermere and Coniston Water frozen over in Winter 2018 to pave the way for the North Polar Expedition? And has the KFC chicken crossed the road in Britain, courtesy of DHL?
posted via 202.154.146.11 user hugo.
message 44020 - 03/01/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Bird Book was Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
Interesting, the gavia (or colymbus) immer immer name is because there is a sub-species gavia immer elasson (from memory) so they needed to differentiate the two, I don't know how they differ.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44019 - 03/01/18
From: MarkD, subject: Re: Bird Book was Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
Adam, I’ve had a look at the first Ed from 1927 and it is as you describe with one exception - the Latin name is given as Colymbus immer with no superscript 2.



posted via 5.80.192.167 user MarkD.


message 44018 - 02/19/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Bird Book was Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
I hope so. I can't see any reason why it should not be. However, my copy is actually a 3rd edition 2nd Impression dating from 1935, still well before the date of GN? but I suppose Sandars might have made changes from the 1st to the 3rd editions.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44017 - 02/18/18
From: MarkD, subject: Re: Bird Book was Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
Adam, I’ve ordered myself a first ed of this - there was also a second Ed in 1929, do you know if it is the same text for the Diver?
posted via 85.255.233.104 user MarkD.
message 44016 - 02/13/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: AR Reference No. 1
Correct. It is listed in the stores as they embark, but neither book says how or when it is consumed.

posted via 81.156.112.140 user Magnus.
message 44015 - 02/12/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Semaphore fontRe: Hawaii Five-O and Nancy
All Things Ransome web site has two versions of semaphore font and images for cutting and pasting and other nice things all of which can be found on the Ransome-Related Downloads page.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44014 - 02/12/18
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Hawaii Five-O and Nancy
Yes, the late Dave Sewart created a font of semaphore figures. It appears in 'Furthest South', the AusTARS magazine, from time to time to offer a bit of a challenge. Probably in 'Signals' too.
posted via 120.148.55.32 user David.
message 44013 - 02/12/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Hawaii Five-O and Nancy

To be fair, they *did* attribute other elements of the clues to Sherlock Holmes --and I did not know of the Sherlock Holmes connection to Nancy's semaphore, so missed that nudge.

I once tried to create a font of that type of semaphore --including elements from CF's message in ML, like junks for periods-- using FontStruct, but never finished it. Does anyone know if a Dancing Man font has already been done by a ACD fan?

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 44012 - 02/12/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Hawaii Five-O and Nancy
I assumed that Ransome got the basic idea from the Sherlock Holmes adventure and made it into semaphore rather than the secret signs used by Conan Doyle so that people could actually try and read it themselves. He even provided semaphore lessons and pictures earlier in Winter Holiday to show how it was done.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44011 - 02/12/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Hawaii Five-O and Nancy
Or could it be a Sherlock Holmes fan remembering the Dancing Men?
posted via 88.110.64.143 user Mike_Jones.
message 44010 - 02/12/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Hawaii Five-O and Nancy
Has anyone else watched the most recent version of Hawaii Five-O? I'm in the middle of the first season now. In its beginning, the main character is bequeathed by his father a box of clues to an old crime. Among those clues is an envelope with, on the outside, several cryptic rows of stick figures...

...Which any one of us would recognize at a glance as an example of Nancy's semaphore.

I haven't bothered to freeze the frames and read it --they probably got it wrong anyhow, from the bits they've been playing with as the episodes progress-- but seeing it made me chuckle.

I wonder who the AR fan is on their design team.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 44009 - 02/12/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: AR Reference No. 1
They take golden syrup to Wild Cat in Swallows and Amazons and also to Secret Water but I don't think it is ever mentioned how they eat it it, in porridge or on bread or whatever.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44008 - 02/12/18
From: Edward Burroughs, subject: Re: Morse Code
This reminds me of one of Arthur C Clarke's books. I think it's A Fall of Moondust. A moonliner is invisibly stranded under the dust of the moon and the captain manages to communicate with the surface by tapping on a metal shaft with a spanner. Clarke makes a good point: Pilots always grumbled about having to learn Morse - it was a complete waste of time in an age of electronics. In all your life you might only need it once. But that of course was just the point - you really would need it then.
posted via 2.218.125.171 user edward_burroughs.
message 44007 - 02/12/18
From: Jon, subject: Re: AR Reference No. 1
Off the top of my head, it's among the stores that they were landed with in SW.
posted via 98.218.103.166 user Jon.
message 44006 - 02/11/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: AR Reference No. 2
The women’s monthly magazine ‘Red’ includes a column about what a certain celebrity is reading, their favourite books and so on. In the November 2017 issue it was the actress Miranda Hart.

Her response to ‘My Favourite Book as a Child was…’

“Swallows and Amazons. It was all I wanted in a book when I was younger: escapism, nature, gentle adventures, a tomboy lifestyle, and a sense of endless time and space in which to play and be free. I am breathing a sigh of relief just thinking about it!”
posted via 95.146.165.154 user MTD.


message 44005 - 02/11/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: AR Reference No. 1
In yesterday's (11th Feb 2018) London 'Sunday Times' there is an extract of a new book by Laura Freeman on how she battled with anorexia in her teenage years.

She was helped and encouraged to eat from descriptions of food and meals in children's books.

She says "Swallows and Amazons spurred me to pour golden syrup on my porridge."

I can remember references to porridge in many of the books, but golden syrup? Perhaps Ed Kiser could make use of his search facility to tell us if there are such references (if there are, they've passed me by over the years!)

posted via 95.146.165.154 user MTD.


message 44004 - 02/11/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: TarBoard is working again
Thanks to all involved, I know from my years in IT how difficult such changeovers and ammendments to any systems can be!
posted via 95.146.165.154 user MTD.
message 44003 - 02/11/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: TarBoard is working again
Absolutely sterling. The extensive perl scripts are old, cranky, and liable to be affected by any changes especially as the available tools and environment evolves. As witness the last few days.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 44002 - 02/11/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: TarBoard is working again
Thanks Woll,
From the behind the scenes emails I was copied on, I know you did sterling work in fixing all the problems that arose.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44001 - 02/11/18
From: Woll, subject: TarBoard is working again
There were a few little problems that needed ironing out to get TarBoard working on the new server, so it took some time, but it's working now!

If you find any problems, please get in touch.

posted via 87.115.148.117 user Woll.
message 43998 - 02/09/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: TarBoard Shutdown - Saturday morning
Our web hosting server will be transferring TarBoard and All Things Ransome to a new server on Saturday morning.

TarBoard will not accept posts from Saturday morning UK time.

Once the transfer is compete and tested we will open up TarBoard again. However, there will be a new IP address which has to propagate across the internet and this could take some time before you will be able to find the site.

So please don't panic, just keep trying and we hope that normal service will be resumed as soon as possible.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43997 - 02/08/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Nell (was: handedness)
Thank you, Peter; I'll take you up on that offer. And I don't especially mind an encoded version of my email appearing here:

pitsligo a
t sprynet d
o
t com

Anyone who feels like sending me nastygrams will, of course, be sending me their email at the same time, and the scraper-bots haven't yet bothered me with such encoding.

I do wish TarBoard used different software for the forum, though, with such features as allowed private messages between members, and an easier sorting of threads. I suspect it's a (quite understandable) matter of cost.

Again, thank you.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43996 - 02/08/18
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Nell (was: handedness)
Alex - I can scan the article for you, but you will have to give me an email address, i.e. publish it on TarBoard, which you may not want to do. If you do go ahead, I suggest you 'codify' the address, keying 'dot' for '.' etc
posted via 86.154.76.136 user Peter_H.
message 43995 - 02/08/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: TarBoard Temporary Shutdown - EARLY WARNING
Our web hosting service will be moving TarBoard and All Things Ransome to a new server on Saturday February 10th in the morning (Pacific time, late afternoon in the UK).

This means that TarBoard and All Things Ransome will be unavailable for some time (possibly more than 24 hours) while the new IP addresses permeate across the internet. Please keep trying if at first you don't succeed in accessing TarBoard after Saturday night.

I will post a second reminder closer to the actual time of the shutdown.

posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43994 - 02/07/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Nell (was: handedness)

"Imaginary Conversations - 2" --Thank you, Peter. I believe my family did have a TARS membership back then, but all our issues of Mixed Moss were lost to me when my father sold the family house in '08. Do you know if there's any way to acquire a copy of that article? I often think back on it.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43993 - 02/07/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Nell (was: handedness)
My own identical twins have reversed initials: CM and MC.
posted via 88.110.64.143 user Mike_Jones.
message 43992 - 02/07/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Nell (was: handedness)
My father's initials were BP, my mother's AH and mine AP, this once worked (briefly) to my advantage when our bank paid a cheque intended for my mother into my account.

I then compounded the problem by marrying someone whose initials are PA and naming my children with the initials EA, ME and MP, the firstborn's name is often shortened to Em.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43991 - 02/07/18
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Nell (was: handedness)
Alex - if you are a TARS member, you will probably be recalling an article by Peter Willis in Mixed Moss 1996, p. 24, entitled "Imaginary Conversations - 2".
posted via 86.154.76.136 user Peter_H.
message 43990 - 02/07/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Nell (was: handedness)
A bit like "Jennifer" being a version of "Guinevere", which no-one much (including me till recently) seems to be aware of.
posted via 124.171.149.247 user mikefield.
message 43989 - 02/07/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Nell (was: handedness)
My twins have the same initial, but envelopes usually quote the middle initial too, which are different, solving that problem.

More troublesome is the older practice of naming a first born son after his father, so that letters which omit the Snr/Jnr suffix are just as confusing. Plus you never know which person a telephone caller is asking for.
posted via 81.158.243.43 user Magnus.


message 43988 - 02/06/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Nell (was: handedness)
My maternal grandmother had one sister and no brothers, they were Elsie and Ethel (they were born in the 1890s), and the letter problem was easily solved as their father opened all the post that came in to the household!
posted via 95.150.14.207 user MTD.
message 43987 - 02/06/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Nell (was: handedness)

Brilliant! Yes, of course it would! Confusion, indeed!

On a tangent: from a long, long time ago I remember some AR fan-fic, a what-happened-to-them-later story, c.WW2. Most of them are in uniform by then, of course, but while on leave Titty and Susan are conversing in Susan's flat, catching each other up on who is where and doing what. While I can't remember all details, I do remember that a great deal of attention was paid to who was romantically involved with whom. The pairings were generally unsurprising, but one of my favorite bits was one of them telling the other how Roger was currently getting romantic whiplash trying to keep up with an unnamed pair of twins --the implication being that he was being courted by Port and Starboard, who would, of course, be strangers to Titty and Susan.

Which, depending on how that played out, could solve the "Miss E. Farland" confusion for (at least) one of them.

More seriously, does anyone else remember this bit of fan-fic, and perhaps have a copy I could have a look at?

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43986 - 02/06/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Nell (was: handedness)
Thereby ensuring eternal confusion with letters addressed to Miss E. Farland.
posted via 88.110.64.143 user Mike_Jones.
message 43985 - 02/06/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Nell (was: handedness)

In that light, what leaps to mind is that it would be a logical alliteration to name twins Elizabeth and Eleanor.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43984 - 02/06/18
From: Robert Hill, subject: Nell (was: handedness)
According to the appendix on names in Chambers' dictionary, Nell can also be a diminutive of Ellen or Eleanor. Both of these are derived from Helen but widely used as separate names. I used to have an aunt called Eleanor but it never crossed my mind until today that her name was a version of Helen.
posted via 95.147.240.158 user eclrh.
message 43983 - 02/05/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Handedness of the children

Unless one consistently curls her hair by choice?

And I have *no* idea whether that would have been likely, given the era and the ages of the characters.

So yes, I agree it's more likely they are DZ/fraternal twins with marked enough physical similarity to be indistinguishable at a glance to those who don't know them well.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43982 - 02/05/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
If only one of the twins has curly hair, it's pretty certain that they are non-identical.
posted via 88.110.64.143 user Mike_Jones.
message 43981 - 02/05/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Handedness of the children

And my mistake: after doing a little reading, it turns out Port and Starboard *could* have been identical twins. I had been under the misimpression handedness was more strongly linked than it is.

As for names, are Bess and Nell nicks for anything other than Elizabeth and Helen?

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43980 - 02/05/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
The quote you are after is chapter IX of Coot Club:

“It’s quite easy, really,” said Starboard.
“Once you know,” said Port.
“Oh, yes,” said Mrs. Barrable. “I remember now. Nell’s the one with curly hair.”
“And the right-handed one,” said Tom. “That’s why she’s Starboard, and Bess is left-handed and so she’s Port. It comes very handy for sailing.”
“Not much sailing for anybody today,” said Mrs. Barrable, looking up the glassy river.

Left-handed children born as recently as 1909 had their arm strapped behind their back at school; I heard this from my wife's grandfather. Do we guess that Bess was born around 1915 or just after? Or would AR have thought about his own childhood? Or that of Tabitha?

As a child of a solicitor I expect Bessie to have had a good education.

On another tangent: do you think their full names were Elizabeth and Helen?!
posted via 81.158.243.43 user Magnus.


message 43979 - 02/04/18
From: Andy, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
...then again, on your last point, it's only ua lefties who realise the world is designed incorrectly. I suspect Arthur (surely a rightie?) may not have noticed the awkwardness 'we' have to endure, as many righties don't notice 'our' problems to this day.
posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.
message 43978 - 02/04/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Handedness of the children

The only characters I'd have any confidence asserting handedness for would be the twins, Port and Starboard. I can't recall if AR expressly calls out that detail, but from their roles, each minding one particular jibsheet, I'd like to think that it would follow. (Even if, technically, if they're identical twins they should be genetically identical, thus of the same handedness.)

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43977 - 02/04/18
From: Jon, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
In SW, "A Savage Watched Her" (p. 219 of the 1957 Cape printing), Titty seems to have the ink pot to her right which suggests she's right handed.
posted via 68.81.220.75 user Jon.
message 43976 - 02/04/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
I agree.
posted via 88.110.64.143 user Mike_Jones.
message 43975 - 02/04/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
It seems to me that, given how AR did many of his illustrations, there's a chance that the children that posed for his "Hollywoods" did what came naturally when asked to hammer, or some such. And there might have been little reason for Ransome to try and reverse the image to represent other-handedness.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43974 - 02/04/18
From: Andy Clayton, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
If I was hanging out of the upper window of a barn, to reach for a high hanging place, I'd be more inclined to trust my safety to my right hand and do the nail work with my left. Rather than hanging on with my weaker hand. Think the episode reinforces the argument for John being right handed.
posted via 46.208.203.39 user cousin_jack.
message 43973 - 02/04/18
From: MD, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
In PP, “Roger in the mine” shows him hammering with his right.

“Charcoal pudding shows what looks like titty pouring a kettle with her right.

PM has a few things that are possibly inconclusive (eg Dick holding the sheet in his right hand in “they were startled by a splash” despite being on starboard tack, and again in his right for “it acts as an extra sail” whilst on port tack), but does show Timothy writing with his right hand in “work in the houseboat”.

In my edition of SA there is a small untitled pic of possibly Titty holding a telescope in her right hand to her right eye.

ML in “at work on the dragon” shows Titty and Roger using paintbrushes in their right hands.

BS “it’s a different tyre” shows Dick writing with his right.


posted via 5.80.192.167 user MarkD.


message 43972 - 02/04/18
From: MDyson, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
In SW “the blooding” shows Nancy using her right hand to prick Peggy.

In the text Roger pricks his own left hand, indicating he is also right handed.

It shows Don using his left hand to prick himself, John using his right, Susan holding the iodine bottle in her right to give to Roger and holding her left like it’s hurt (she gives the bottle to Roger after pricking herself, so presumably she is right handed and using her uninjured hand to hold the bottle). Titty is dripping blood onto the plate from her left hand after pricking herself so is also presumably right handed.

I think that’s fairly good evidence that all the Swallows and Nancy are right handed and only Don is a left hooker.
posted via 5.80.192.167 user MarkD.


message 43971 - 02/04/18
From: MDyson, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
In the illustration “taking bearings” in SW we see titty (I think) lying on the ground writing with what looks to me like her right hand.
posted via 5.80.192.167 user MarkD.
message 43970 - 02/04/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
Good point Alex, I was just about to post something similar (having read the other posts.)

AR was writing in, and of, a time when (in the UK) left-handedness was seen as an aberration and children would be 'forced' to use their right hand even to the extent of having their left one strapped up so they couldn't use it.

I also think that given how AR wrote, if a character was left-handed he would have said so!
posted via 95.150.14.207 user MTD.


message 43969 - 02/04/18
From: MD, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
That’s quite possible. I’ve actually considered this before, as I tried to visualise what was going on and wondered why he used his left hand and came to the conclusion I’d have done exactly the same as he did - and as I say I’m a right hander. If I had a big wall and a little one to hang a signal on I’d have chosen the biggest blank space to make it as visible as possible from distance. I’m not so right-handed I won’t use a hammer in my left if I have to, and not so right handed it would bother me which side to put it up unless there was absolutely no difference between them (in which case I’d probably have done as you say). I got to the point that I thought there was no real evidence either way based on the picture.
posted via 5.80.192.167 user MarkD.
message 43968 - 02/04/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
Thanks MD, I'd considered that, and indeed the opening in the barn certainly seems to be off-centre. But the size of the signal shown vs the width of the walls each side of the opening seems to indicate that they could easily be hung from either side. So why pick the LHS if to do so meant going against one's natural handedness?

(I'd also considered the question of sight-lines, but there's every reason to think that the whole side of the barn could be seen readily from Holly Howe, so that the issue of whether one side or the other of the barn was better doesn't come into play.)
posted via 124.171.149.247 user mikefield.


message 43967 - 02/04/18
From: MDyson, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
Mike, if you look at the first illustration on the frontispiece, “signal station and observatory”, you’ll see the signals are placed to the left of the large window as you look at it from Holly Howe. John wouldn’t have had any other choice but to use his left hand whilst standing on the sill to put it there. I’d have done the same, and I’m right handed.

One could argue that the choice of sides to fix the sign indicated a particular handedness, but from the drawing the window is offset so that there is a much larger expanse of blank wall to the left and I think it would be the more natural choice.
posted via 5.80.192.167 user MarkD.


message 43966 - 02/03/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
Pardon me, Mike: *definitely* inspired awesomeness. ;)

Actually, by listing map making and writing I meant more to wonder whether, in any of the books' *pictorial* illustrations, we see any of the characters specifically using either their left or right hand in a way that might identify handedness. Not that it would settle the matter --IIRC that era was known for training "lefties" to work with their right hand, some tasks effectively demand right-handedness from the nature of equipment (e.g. using a sextant), and ambidexterity could throw off any certainty.

I haven't seen a connection between left-handedness and creativity myself, in any of the examples I have known personally, but I won't contradict you. In fact, I dimly remember studies that would back you up in that assertion.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43965 - 02/03/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
I would have said "inspired awesomeness" actually, Alex. :)

I'm convinced there's some connectedness between handedness and creativity, though.

The only left-hander in my family is my second daughter. She used to be quite a creative writer, but her physical condition limits her a bit in that direction these days.

Map-making comes from a primarily "lower limbic quadrant" form of thinking -- definitely left-brain I'm afraid, so I'm equally definitely right-handed...
posted via 124.171.149.247 user mikefield.


message 43964 - 02/03/18
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
Oh, very sharp Mike! Like Alex, it's something which I would have passed over, but now that you have mentioned it, I shall look for other instances as I work my way, very slowly, savouring each turn of phrase through the canon. I'm only at the shipwreck in SD, so there is a lot to savour yet! This time around, I know the story, so I'm concentrating on the writing. What fun!
posted via 120.148.55.32 user David.
message 43963 - 02/03/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Handedness of the children

Well *that's* awfully perceptive! I would never have thought to look for it, either. Are you left handed, that you think to look, or was that just inspired awareness?

Now I'll need to look for other instances of handedness. Illustrations of map-making? Writing?

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43962 - 02/03/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Handedness of the children
Something I've come across for the first time while proof-reading 'Winter Holiday' -- after I-don't-know-how-many prior readings of it. John is setting up the observatory's signal station for the first time, fixing a nail into the stonework on which to rig the signal halyard.

"This'll do," he said, trying it in his hand, and went to the big window. He stood there on the sill, holding to the wall with his right hand and reaching round it and as high up it as he could with his left. He found a crack between the stones, pushed into it a big nail that he fished out of his pocket, battered it firmly in with his stone hammer, and gave it a last knock from below to make it turn upwards.

This is pretty clearly describing how a left-hander would do this.

(Without any evidence) I'd only ever thought of Titty -- and just perhaps Dorothea -- being left-handed, not any of the others; and certainly not John.

Is there any other evidence of the children's handedness that anyone has come across?
posted via 124.171.149.247 user mikefield.


message 43961 - 02/02/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: S & A books as free downloads
S&A is the 'New Illustrated Edition', 1931, 25th impression, Jonathan Cape, 1948.
posted via 124.171.149.247 user mikefield.
message 43960 - 02/02/18
From: David Maxwell, subject: Re: S & A books as free downloads
Does anyone know what edition, year printed, etc they are using for the download?
posted via 97.78.238.94 user DavidMaxwell.
message 43959 - 02/02/18
From: Mike Field, subject: S & A books as free downloads
'Swallows and Amazons' is now available as a free download from The Faded Page, Canada. The illustrations are included. More titles in the series are in preparation.

The books are being made available in Canada as that country recognises a 50-year-after-death copyright period, which, as AR died in 1967, has now expired.

(Naturally, you should only download this book if copyright restrictions in your country allow you to.... )

[ Image ]

posted via 124.171.149.247 user mikefield.


message 43958 - 01/30/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
Quite so Alex, I've always argued the books are a 'snapshot' of how the world was in the 1930s.

This can be seen in particular as AR wrote many in the 1940s, under the dark cloud of WWII, but carried on the same style.
posted via 95.150.14.131 user MTD.


message 43957 - 01/30/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
I'm still shocked at how ubiquitous cell/mobile phones have become. It seems to me it was barely yesterday that a good friend of mine was showing off his new bag-phone, which was a rare luxury item.

Which of course drags us into the question of whether technology alone would have prevented S&A from being the story it is. Night sailing to capture Amazon wouldn't have been so duffer-ish with a GPS-enabled phone. The storm wouldn't have been such a surprise with a weather ap. What sort of tension would there have been with that instant umbilical of security back to Mother at Holly Howe?

Different stories of a different era; for better or for worse --and I won't make any attempt at *that* assessment!-- impossible to replicate.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43956 - 01/29/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
Your right Alex, and it (the 'phone terminology) just seems to have crept up on us in the last couple of years!
posted via 95.150.15.235 user MTD.
message 43955 - 01/29/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
And in the further evolution of language, over here a cell/mobile is now more often than not simply a "phone," while the cord-bound creature that sits on my kitchen counter, still connected to the grid by wire rather than radio signals, is a "landline."

So when did "pudding" become a specific type of dessert? Has it always been in the US? Was it so in AR's time, and he is using a specific era/demographic's language for the purpose of establishing his setting?

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43954 - 01/29/18
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
Well, that explains a lot. Thank you both, you have helped me in my continuous quest to find "typo" errors in my TXT hand typed copies. Went to my Godine (pub 2002) edition, and, "CAKE FOR PUDDING." I'm glad I selected that particular quote. My TXT stands corrected. Not all a wasted effort, as it taught me the usage of PUDDING to mean DESSERT, so I'm glad I brought this up to become another boon to the education AR has given us. (And a bit embarrassed for my mistake. but typos do happen, so really glad to get another one fixed.) As for the sometimes usage of the "A", perhaps there is someone else other than me that made a TYPO. And so the education continues.

posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.
message 43953 - 01/29/18
From: Woll, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
My 1946 hardback has "for a pudding".
My 1971(?) UK Puffin paperback, with coloured pencil cover drawing, has "for pudding".

I wonder if it's a change made by AR after publication, or that the "a" was dropped accidentally by the printers at some point?

Both variations are acceptable English. I think the original fits the voice of novice-cook-Dorothea better!

posted via 87.115.148.117 user Woll.


message 43952 - 01/28/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
Well Ed, so it does for us!

You mention "cell phones", the first time I came across this in a USA TV programme it took me a few moments to realise they meant a "mobile"! These days over here "smart phone" has become more widespread.

Like you, over the years I have learnt much from AR and when I watch TV quiz shows (serious ones), I realise just how much I have to thank him for!
posted via 95.150.15.235 user MTD.


message 43951 - 01/28/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Hound in the Lakes
Today's Lakelandcam has a picture of a hound climbing a fence or gate.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.

message 43949 - 01/28/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
My copy of P&M says "And there's any amount of cake FOR pudding."

To a British English speaker this wold be equivalent of an American saying "And there's any amount of cake for dessert."
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43948 - 01/28/18
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
It never occurred to me that "pudding" is British for "Dessert". But perhaps that is not quite right either, as I would say "have cake FOR dessert", not "have cake IN a dessert." But it is close, and much better than the image I had of mashing the cake and stirring it around a bit to make it mushy, with perhaps some other stuff stirred in to the mix. That image was disturbing. Glad to get that corrected.

This forum has been a blessing to help understand the UK version of certain words.

My first "what the heck is That?" was there is SA, first chapter, when Roger came running up others with that telegram in hand. John, seeing the paper waving in his hand, asked him: "Despatches?" Right away, I became aware that reading this would take some translation.

Some time ago on this forum,I learned what "Midden" is, as used in the phrase "cock of the midden". To be "High and mighty", to stand on the high ground, that image gets knocked down a peg or two when that "high ground" is just a pile of stuff that occasionally gets scraped out of a chicken house.

Ransome has been a fantastic LEARNING experience, and not just learning about how to sail. My first sailing experience was just fine because I had read Ransome - I'm sure others could say the same. That first day out sailing, I felt I could hear Nancy saying, "Fingers, fingers." Yet somehow, I have a feeling that something a bit more forceful was needed by John when sailing the Goblin in stormy seas.

It was Ransome that got me interested in Morse Code. I was the kid that was always last to be chosen for the team, so to be asked by our Boy Scout Master to teach Morse to the others was quite a feather in my cap, a role of leadership among my peers. The Nerd was "in charge" for a change. Of course, that was back before the time of "cell phones". Hard to get kids motivated for Morse Code when they are busy texting.

There is that "secret" code that one uses when knocking on the door of a friend, a tapping that seems to mean, "It's me." Not really secret as it is well known. To put words to that code: "Shave and a hair cut, two bits." With the "and a" being said quickly together, and the other words all separately, and using the concept when banging Morse Code to send a DOT as one bang, and DASH as two bangs close together, (reminds me of the "double click" of the computer mouse) that little code becomes in Morse as "Dot Dash Dot Dot - pause - Dot Dot" which are the codes for "LI" (first two letters in "listen").

It was wonderful to be learning without knowing that is what was happening.

And the learning process continues. Ah, the marvels of modern communication...

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]

posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43947 - 01/28/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
A bit, depending on class in the UK pudding is what you have at home and dessert is what you in restaurant!
posted via 95.150.15.235 user MTD.
message 43946 - 01/27/18
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
In Australia, we are more likely to refer to eating the cake as a dessert course. Does that help?
posted via 120.148.46.131 user David.
message 43945 - 01/27/18
From: Woll, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
In this context I think Dorothea means that, for their "pudding course" (something sweet, eaten as the last course of a meal), they can eat the cake.

A more typical/traditional/old-fashioned "pudding course" would be something like "spotted dick", "treacle pudding", "rice pudding", "Christmas pudding" which are often steamed, but it could also be used to mean a trifle, ice cream etc.

The word "pudding" can also be used for savoury food, like "Yorkshire pudding" or "steak and kidney pudding", but in this context Dorothea means "pudding course".


posted via 87.115.148.117 user Woll.
message 43944 - 01/27/18
From: Jon, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
It's the other way 'round. Cake is cake; Pudding may be a pudding, or the generic term for dessert.
posted via 98.218.103.166 user Jon.
message 43943 - 01/27/18
From: Ed Kiser, subject: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
"And there's any amount of cake for a pudding." - PM CH6

Having just moved into their new quarters, "the Dogs' Home", Dorothea is considering what to do for their first meal on their own.

I am unaware of a PUDDING needing, as one of its ingredients, a CAKE. Now maybe "CAKE" means something other than what one puts icing on, and some candles, then dance around it singing "Happy Birthday". If she has some "CAKE" why not enjoy the cake rather than glop it all up in some sort of a pudding?

Or is this a language problem, where "CAKE" and "PUDDING" mean something different, depending on which side of the Great Pond one resides.

Perhaps here we are frustrated with the faulty translation of one language to another (British into American) leading to misunderstandings.
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43942 - 01/25/18
From: John Nichols, subject: Peel Island
Lakeland cam has a good shot of Peel Island
posted via 165.91.12.86 user Mcneacail.
message 43941 - 01/24/18
From: John Nichols, subject: Dunkirk
In getting the first chance in months to read tarboard - in reading the comments I was thinking that Branagh's performance in Dunkirk provides the model for any competent sailor and Naval officer. You can go out to sea , but nothing says you have to come back.

John
posted via 165.91.12.86 user Mcneacail.


message 43939 - 01/23/18
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Seamans Handybook (was Well-known book on Naval Warfare)
Is it likely that John would have a copy of a US book? I don't know. It could be that he had a Royal Navy book courtesy of his father or from a naval outfitters, which provided other items in addition to uniforms.

When I joined the RN for officer training we were issued with, what I think was called "The Able Seaman's Handbook". This covered many practical items of seamanship that an AB might have to undertake. It was not the definitive publication, that was "The Admiralty Manual of Seamanship" in 4 volumes (Vol 1 of which is on my bookshelf as I type). As far as I can remember the AB's handbook covered compasses, ropework, and commands used in small boats amongst other items.

During WW2 there was "A Seaman's Pocketbook". Whether this was a republication of an earlier book or a new book as an aid to the many called up for service during the war I don't know. However it has been reprinted by Conways. It is described thus:

At the height of the Second World War this small pocket-book was issued to all ratings on board ships of the Royal Navy. In straight period prose it outlines all the basic expressions and tasks a seaman needed to know to perform his duties efficiently. Chapters are broken down into: Sea Terms; Navigation; Steering the Ship; Rigging; Anchors and Cables; Boatwork; Miscellaneous (which includes details on uniform and folding a hammock, etc); and Ship Safety. Functional black line illustrations are used throughout, as well as a few pages of colour (used sparingly) for flag recognition.


posted via 2.102.118.45 user MartinH.


message 43938 - 01/22/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Seamans Handybook (was Well-known book on Naval Warfare)
I'm glad my thread has spawned two interesting tangents! I am pretty convinced by Adam Q's research on the bird book. Now I want to pick up on the book John takes to the island in S&A.

Someone mentioned it was a US publication. If the title matches exactly, that is a pretty likely.

However, Arthur Ransome had a copy of "A Seamans Pocket Book" (published by the Admirality) in his library when he died, published 1943. It could be this one too.

Has anyone seen inside either publication, to know if they are something a young lad would see as useful when on the island. How to splice some reef points, for example? (N.B. No mention is made of John consulting a book during that scene!)
posted via 81.129.149.81 user Magnus.


message 43937 - 01/22/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Bird Book was Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
A bit of both really. I inherited my copy of Sandars from my mother who had it from my grandmother but I was not a particularly keen birder so didn't really spend much time browsing it. One day I looked up the Great Northern Diver after reading the book again because I did wonder what a small bird book of the time might say. I was immediately struck by the similarities.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 43936 - 01/21/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Bird Book was Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare

You've convinced me, no question.

That's some pretty impressive sleuthing. Did you go hunting for Dick's book in particular, examining the various options, or come across Sandars in the course of other pursuits, recognize the similarity, and have a "eureka moment"?

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43935 - 01/21/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
Oh, I agree, Jon. I was merely postulating possible alternatives.
posted via 124.171.149.247 user mikefield.
message 43934 - 01/21/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Bird Book was Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
I believe that the bird book which Dick used in GN? was pretty convincingly identified by me as "A Bird Book for the Pocket" by Edmund Sandars, 1st edition 1927, Oxford University Press.

I wrote an article for the 2005 Mixed Moss entitled "Is the Dick's Bird Book?"

Here is an excerpt from the article which gives my reasons for believing that this is the book.

The reasons why I am so positive that this small book was the one Dick consulted are the quotes from the book that Ransome gives in the text and also the illustrations in Great Northern? To start with, Ransome states that the Great Northern and Black Throated Divers were shown on the same page. This is what Sandars shows. In addition, there is the Latin name, colymbus immer immer, the species name was changed in 1931 to gavia immer immer, (note: I have read that urinator immer immer was also used for some time between colymbus and gavia but I am not sure for how long).

Sandars idiosyncratically abbreviated the Latin name to colymbus immer2 with a superscript 2 and continued to use colymbus immer2 in later editions. In Chapter VII “Is it or isn’t it” of GN? Ransome refers to colymbus immer which might be easily done if he did not notice or realise what the superscript 2 meant. He also uses direct quotes from the descriptions of the Great Northern and Black Throated Diver in Dick's book. These are exactly the same words as Sandars' text.

Nests abroad. Usually seen solitary. Black Throated Diver Colymbus arcticus. Length 28 inches. Great Northern Diver Colymbus immer. Length 31 inches.
Sandars’ description of the Great Northern Diver is also notable as being very short and lacking in the details given for other birds. This would have added to Dick’s frustration giving him too little information to conclusively identify the Great Northern Divers.
Finally, the picture of the Great Northern Diver in Sandars' book is one of those where he has chosen to put an enlarged picture of the head and neck of the GN to make the differences in appearance from the Black-Throated diver clear, just as Dick does in his notebook. The picture of the whole body of the GN in Sandars book is quite small and tucked into a space on the page. What is also striking is how similar Ransome's illustrations of Dick's notebook are to the images from Sandars' book. They face the same way, in the same pose and are almost identical in detail and relative size.

I am certainly satisfied that Dick’s bird book was Sandars’ A Bird Book for the Pocket. The pictures and the text hang together. It is a suitably sized small handbook to carry aboard a on a cruising yacht. It was published at the right time and was a popular field guide, maybe the book belonged to Mac and the Sea Bear rather than Dick, though it seems unlike Dick to go on an expedition without some reference book.

posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43933 - 01/20/18
From: Jon, subject: Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
IIRC Liddell-Hart was a military, not a naval, officer, and wasn't particularly involved in naval strategy considerations except to suggest ships and naval maneuvers as models for armoured warfare. Gustavus Adolphus, similarly, was primarily a land commander and strategist. Mahan is probably the foremost writer on naval strategy, therefore the most likely candidate.
posted via 98.218.103.166 user Jon.
message 43932 - 01/20/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: unexpected AR reference
The reference in Lord Of The Flies is always jarring to me, even knowing it's coming. It's very effective though, bringing the story right to my emotional doorstep. They're ordinary kids, just as I was...

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43931 - 01/20/18
From: Tiss Flower, subject: unexpected AR reference
For the past fortnight, I've been listening to a "gritty" crime drama, "Stone", on BBC Radio 4. It was very good and made even better by an unexpected reference to S&A as a book that was meaningful in childhood to the murder victim and his estranged father. There's no telling where AR will pop up. Any others?
posted via 109.145.202.67 user Tiss_Flower.
message 43930 - 01/20/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Sinbad
WD was published in autumn1937, a couple of months after Sinbad the dog joined the Campbell, but well before he became famous during the Battle of the North Atlantic.

Sinbad the Sailor seems the most likely source for the moggy and the pooch.
posted via 88.110.83.67 user Mike_Jones.


message 43929 - 01/19/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Sinbad
Hh'mmm.... To me, the kitten was always just named after Sinbad The Sailor. And if it had been a giraffe or an elephant -- assuming the Swallows could have rescued it :) -- they would still have called it Sinbad.
posted via 124.171.149.247 user mikefield.
message 43928 - 01/19/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
That was Captain Sir Basil Liddell-Hart, Dave -- "British historian and theoretician of war". Good spotting. I think he's a good candidate. But I think Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden is a good candidate too (as is Mahan), and I'm not sure we'll ever know who exactly AR had in mind as the author.
posted via 124.171.149.247 user mikefield.
message 43927 - 01/19/18
From: David Bamford, subject: Sinbad
Today's edition of the website 'Atlas Obscura' has a story about sea-going pets. It featured one 'Sinbad', a dog on board the USCG ship 'Campbell', torpedoed during convoy-protection duties in the Battle of the Atlantic. Sinbad was awarded six medals during his wartime service, anbd considerable press publicity. Could this gave suggested a name for a certain small abandoned kitten? Or was it just the well-known sailor from the "Arabian Nights, whose name was given to both dog and kitten?
posted via 120.148.2.68 user David.
message 43926 - 01/19/18
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
There was an English academic who was a very good strategist, quite prominent in the thirties, and whose name eludes me for the moment. Could it have been Liddell, or am I getting confused with the BBC announcer? I think that his given name was Basil. He predicted the Japanese 'island-hopping' invasions of the Pacific war. Can anyone else come up with the rest of his name? He may have been the source of John's quotation.
posted via 120.148.2.68 user David.
message 43925 - 01/19/18
From: Jon, subject: Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
IIRC there've been other book quotes in the 12 that couldn't be traced, verbatim, to any particular book. "Nests Abroad" may be the most glaring. I think there are also some books referenced where the titles haven't matched up with anything currently identifiable. Given that in SA John was bringing The Seaman's Handy Book, a US Navy publication, he evidently had a better-than-normal acquaintance with American naval and maritime writings.
posted via 98.218.103.166 user Jon.
message 43924 - 01/19/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
I have often wondered about this bit. It has been discussed several times before on TarBoard and no doubt elsewhere but I don't think anyone has ever come up with a definitive source for this "well-known book". I don't think that Sun Tzu is a likely source, for a start it is not about naval warfare and I also wonder how well it was known in 1920s England.
Alfred Thayer Mahan does seem a likely possibility but the quote has not yet been found in his works. Of course, John could have paraphrased the meaning in which case finding the quote would be difficult.
I wonder if there were any naval warfare books of the right date in Ransome's library? Or perhaps it was one of the one's which Ivy and Tabitha impounded and sold.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 43923 - 01/18/18
From: Jon, subject: Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
I always figured he was referring to Alfred Thayer Mahan.
posted via 98.218.103.166 user Jon.
message 43922 - 01/18/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
S&A - Chapter XVII

“In naval warfare,” said John, remembering a well-known book, “two things are important; to know exactly what you want to do and to do it in the manner that your enemy least expects.”

I don't think this is exactly what is said in 'The Art of War' by Sun Tzu. Was it that book, or another, that Ransome was referring to?

posted via 81.129.149.81 user Magnus.


message 43921 - 01/16/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: AR Typsetting, was Re: Misprint in Great Northern?
Having suggested that swap of "us" and "an", I now wonder how it may have come about, or if it is a viable hypothesis at all.

Specifically, was GN? printed from locked formes, with such moveable type as I at first imagined, where "us" and "an" would have been individual pieces of cast type able to be moved about independantly? Or was it printed from etched plates, where the entire text of a signature (so several pages worth of type) was etched, complete, into a single metal plate? If the former, my hypothesis has merit. If the latter...

Perhaps an etched plate might have been created using a forme --with the moveable type-- in which case my original hypothesis stands. A forme could have been made up, locked, and used to print the plate with an acid-resist, then the forme would have been rearranged into the text needed for next plate, etc. The book itself would have been printed off the plates while the formes and type were merely part of the typesetting process, used and re-used for any number of books. I imagine this would be much easier (and cheaper) for Cape than keeping/storing a complete set of formes. Later editions, once the mistake had been noted, would have had a new plate etched with corrected type.

But if the original plate was photo-engraved(?), where no formes were involved(?), we'd need to look for a different explanation.

I simply don't know enough about the printing process of that era to guess with any authority. My original guess ("us"/"an") feels sound to me, but I'd want to hear from a printer with historical knowledge before I called it gospel.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43920 - 01/16/18
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Misprint in Great Northern?
Cook is described as old. If it was 1933 and she was 63, she would have been born around 1870, the year compulsory eduction was introduced. In 1880 when she was 10 it was still possible in some areas - especially, I suspect, rural ones - to leave school at 10 (not raised nationally to 11 until 1893).

Rural education in the late 19th century is described, for example, in Lark Rise to Candleford by Flora Thompson.
posted via 95.148.181.242 user eclrh.


message 43919 - 01/16/18
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Misprint in Great Northern?
Yes, I think this is one of the rare AR errors, but a very excusable one. AR wants us to 'hear' Cook's kindly voice as Dick reads the note. I suppose Cook would use 'owt' in written form, because this word is not mis-spelt and she would have seen the word in print in North Country fiction and the local press. However, she would surely not have written 'makin', but would have included the 'g', as she did in 'wanting' in the very next sentence. In print, 'makin' is a spelling mistake which Cook would not make. But, in haste, she perhaps would have left the apostrophe out of 'owts'.

None of this is any sort of problem and is a bit pedantic, but I find it of interest. The pitfalls of authorship!
posted via 86.156.56.162 user Peter_H.


message 43918 - 01/15/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Misprint in Great Northern?
We find out that Cook's surname is Braithwaite earlier in P&M when she leaves a note at the Dogs Home.

"Cook," said Dorothea, reading a scrap of paper by the flick-
ering light. "And I've gone and missed her." She gave Dick the
scrap of paper and he read:

Hope your makin do. If owts wanting you can tell Jacky.

M. Braithwaite.

It seems odd that she would write a note in dialect, it sounds like something she would say out loud but surely she would have been taught "proper English" for more formal things even short notes.

posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43917 - 01/15/18
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Misprint in Great Northern?
Found NO reference to "Lewis" in any of the GN books.
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.
message 43916 - 01/15/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Misprint in Great Northern?
Yes, Alex’s idea that two two-letter typefaces "an" and "us" got mistakenly reversed seems most likely!
posted via 202.49.158.52 user hugo.
message 43915 - 01/15/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: S&A, Chp 1
Good one - I think you're right about WDMTGTS. An author has to subtly sneak in the teaching that his readers might need later, but without telling them. He has to show, not tell (a popular theme in how-to books about writing fiction).

I saw a very small example of a similar matter, only just now, but it is a debatable one that just happens to resonate with me personally.

In P&M Chapter XX:
“She knows, with her son a policeman and all,” said Jacky. “I asked Mrs. Braithwaite at Beckfoot, but she wouldn’t tell me nowt.”
“Who is Mrs. Braithwaite?” asked Dick.
“That’s Cook,” said Dorothea. “Go on, Jacky. What did she say?”

Now some people might see this as blatantly telling your readers, not showing. And half-way through the 11th book is a late time to impart such information too!

But to me, this is just such a classic moment of true observation on the male-versus-female brain. I have said the same thing to my wife so many times:
Wife: "I will ask Deirdre to look after the cat next week."
Me: "Who's that?! Never heard of her!
Wife: "You spoke to her yesterday; the lady with a bad leg who lives three doors down and we see in church if it's not raining. She's got a son called Bernard and her ex-husband was in the RAF. She likes cheese-rolling and poker."
Me: "I am aware of the existence of this person. I swear nobody has ever mentioned her name in my presence."
Wife: [rolls eyes]

posted via 81.129.149.81 user Magnus.


message 43914 - 01/14/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Misprint in Great Northern?
I find no reference to this in a quick look aat Wayne Hammond's "Bibliography" nor in the Addenda and Corrigenda from 2009. However his Bibliography doesn't delve down to that level (as opposed to his Tolkien Bibliography, which of necessity does). Having said that, it is a curious misprint and I incline to agree with Alex about the (mis)use of 2-letter type elements.

I don't think there is any reference to "Lewis" in the book, but would defer to Ed if he finds differently.


posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43913 - 01/14/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Misprint in Great Northern?
My 1948 Macmillan has the correct text, as does my 2003 Godine.

Interesting that "Sanus" is an anagram of Susan, but not a reversal --"nasuS". If it were a typesetter's error, I suppose I could see how the upper case "S" would obviously go first in the chase, when making up the forme, and then the rest... got scrambled. If they were using pre-cast two-letter increments --both "us" and "an" being useful words on their own-- it might have been a case of using an upper-case "S" and then swapping the next two type-pieces.

Interesting quirk! Sort of a "Wicked Bible" of A&R.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43912 - 01/14/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Misprint in Great Northern?
Checked my 1947 Cape Edition (a 1st.) and it is 'Susan' there, but my 1964 edition is as yours - 'Sanus'.
posted via 95.149.55.225 user MTD.
message 43911 - 01/13/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Misprint in Great Northern?
My copy of ''Great Northern'' has an interesting misprint in Chapter II, when Roger says "We jolly well won’t (go back) ..... and earned a grim look from Sanus". Of course in the Red Fox edition I checked, it is " .... a grim look from Susan". Susan not Sanus. Mine is a Cape hardback, page 31: the Eighth Impression, January 1956; Type reset 1958; Reprinted 1964. So I suppose the error was made in 1958?

PS: Is Lewis or the Isle of Lewis mentioned by name in GN? The 2013 Red Fox edition has a map of the north of Scotland showing Oban and Mallig, Skye and Lewis.
posted via 203.96.138.207 user hugo.


message 43910 - 01/13/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: S&A, Chp 1

I have encountered lesser versions of it throughout the series, but S&A Chp1 is the best of the lot.

The only other one that leaps to mind is WDMTGTS Chp1, where we see Goblin almost miss her mooring and be swept away by the tide. It's a good forewarning of "bad things happen if you're at the mercy of the tide" that sets the stage for the later drama. However, it's not as immersive a prelude.

He then does similar, smaller things throughout the earlier chapters of WDMTGTS --a constant awareness of tide, current, and shoal water, the boat stuck on the mudflat, etc. But that's just basic writer's craft.

It's the scale of his accomplishment in S&A Chp1 and the subliminal ease of it that, for me, puts it in the context of genius. Sailing is *not* a simple art to explain, and in that instance he does it so very, very well.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43909 - 01/13/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: S&A, Chp 1
Wow. Just wow!

I cannot believe I have never noticed this before. It all is so clever and cunning, yet totally unforced and almost subliminal.

Alex, can we have your observations on other chapters and other books please!
posted via 81.129.149.81 user Magnus.


message 43908 - 01/06/18
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: S&A, Chp 1
Oh yes, I do agree with you Alex! Each evening when I climb into bed before my partner does, I read a few pages (currently of S&A) as a sort of 'nightcap'. I read it slowly, not for the story, but for the writing. I revel in the way AR uses his words so economically. I also enjoy the naturalness of the children's conversations.
posted via 120.148.65.37 user David.
message 43906 - 01/05/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: S&A, Chp 1
Again and again I come back to AR's brilliant chapter 1 of S&A.

First there is, in the first sentence, so much of what you need to know about Roger, his family, his mother's mindset, and the character of his (their) interactions with the world. None of the information is forced, not a word is wasted, and it soaks in effortlessly, allowing us to see the Walkers exactly as we need to for the coming story.

Beyond that, I cannot imagine a better way to introduce the concepts of beating and running to readers who might never have had cause to imagine how a sailboat must interact with the wind. A child zig-zagging up a hill, a little out of breath and wishing he could just run straight into the wind, perfectly anthropomorphizes the concept, and allows us to understand intuitively the intrinsic frustrations of tacking into a wind. Then the way Roger puts his arms out and runs back down the hill makes it clear just what a boat must do, and how much easier is that point of sail.

It is a chapter of genius, giving the reader all they need to know about the central conflict of the story to come: which way will the wind be, in the war with the Amazons? I don't know of any other book that teaches those fundamentals of sailing on so intuitive a level.

As a writer, I am always stunned and delighted by that chapter more than any other.

Just had to rave about it.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43905 - 12/27/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Merry Christmas and Season's Greetings to all TarBoard readers
Minus 26 degrees Celsius this morning, but the sun is shining and the world is beautiful in its white blanket.
posted via 184.151.36.253 user rlcossar.
message 43904 - 12/25/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Merry Christmas and Season's Greetings to all TarBoard readers
In Melbourne, it began nice and cool (21deg. C,) but warmed up during the afternoon until airconditioning was required for the drive home.
posted via 120.148.36.174 user David.
message 43903 - 12/24/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Merry Christmas and Season's Greetings to all TarBoard readers
Thank you Adam and seasons greetings to everyone.

I envy you the snow, here in Secret Water country its just another too warm day for the time of year and trying to rain!
posted via 2.28.231.174 user MTD.


message 43902 - 12/24/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Merry Christmas and Season's Greetings to all TarBoard readers
Softly, at first, as if it hardly meant it, the snow began to fall.

It is still early evening on Christmas Eve here in Toronto with the snow falling a bit harder since it started earlier this afternoon but it is not a blizzard so I won't be making a sailing dash for the North Pole.

May all TarBoarders have a very Merry Christmas and don't blow all your money on a mincing machine.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43901 - 12/23/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Public Domain
Generally the copyright of a book (and the characters?) depends on the years (70 or 50) since death of the author and is not affected by a remake of a film. The stories of Arthur Conan Doyle (died 1930) are out of copyright and presumably can be freely used. The same story could be filmed in 2017 and again in 2018.

In America though works published in the United States prior to 1928 are all in the public domain. From 1928 to 1977 the period was 95 years from date of publication and could require renewal, hence the books in the S&A series could have different expiry years? The Wikipedia article below mentions a 2016 case law ruling that remastering of pre-1972 music extended copyright because of the work involved, but I do not know if this ruling extended to films? And would it apply to the original unremastered work? The 1998 "Sonny Bono" Copyright Extension Act extended copyright for works of corporate authorship like Disney’s Mickey Mouse films to the earlier of 120 years since creation or 95 years since publication.

posted via 203.96.138.96 user hugo.
message 43900 - 12/21/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Public Domain
I assume the copyright only ceases on works that have not been re-published recently? This is Disney's usual method; to bring out a revamped version in some new format, just to stop it slipping into the public domain.
posted via 81.129.149.81 user Magnus.
message 43899 - 12/20/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Public Domain

AR's works re: public domain in 2018:

http://publicdomainreview.org/collections/class-of-2018/

(At the bottom of the article.)

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43898 - 12/17/17
From: Paul, subject: Re: LP Record
Enjoyed it when first I heard it. I'll have to dig out my copy - and then a device on which to play it!

posted via 86.153.140.106 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43897 - 12/17/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: LP Record
Sorry about the previous post, can't even spell my own name!
posted via 95.145.229.143 user MTD.
message 43896 - 12/17/17
From: Nike Dennis, subject: Re: LP Record
Its was released at the time of the 1974 film of 'Swallows and Amazons' and includes music from the original soundtrack and some of the dialogue linked to convey the story (so long since I've listened to my copy!)
posted via 95.145.229.143 user MTD.
message 43895 - 12/17/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: LP Record
LP of what?
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43894 - 12/17/17
From: kay, subject: LP Record
I spotted an LP which seems to be audio with some theme music and some of the original dialogue. Does anyone know if this is a good thing to collect (price was £1.99) or is it just a 'cash in?
posted via 90.193.117.37 user Kay.
message 43893 - 12/13/17
From: Kay, subject: Re: Coots In The North
Mark. I got mine from Ebay at just over £6 It said 'acceptable' condition but when I got it it looked almost as new. Guess I was just lucky
posted via 90.193.117.37 user Kay.
message 43892 - 12/13/17
From: Mark D, subject: Re: Coots In The North
I've been looking for this for some time. The only copies I've seen seem to be going for silly money. The cheapest I've seen recently is a used copy on Amazon at £33.
posted via 185.125.226.2 user MarkD.
message 43891 - 12/12/17
From: Kay, subject: Coots In The North
60 years after my Uncle gave me The Big Six for Christmas (followed by Coot Club) the following year I found this site and am reading the 12 again.
I had not heard of the story (or more correctly part story) and was lucky to find a copy and am reading it with the plaintiff sounds of Hank Williams for accompaniment.
I read here (or somewhere) that AR abandoned the story and one reason given was he didn't know how to get the boys home yet it seems to me there is a simple mechanism for this.
Like AR I have a soft spot for the D & Gs and think if AR had finished it it would have been another wonderful book. Still I guess I'll have to be satisfied at meeting them again after all this time.
posted via 90.193.117.37 user Kay.
message 43890 - 12/10/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: The Value of 1st Editions was Re: Sale of 1st editions
there are times when the physical book has almost as much importance as the text they contain.
And of course, there's always the value of marginal notes. My father was a prolific marginal noter.
He'd been an air raid warden in his time- I still have his tin hat hanging in the hall; well, where else do you put it? It's very comfortable and annotated. There's a luggage label inside attached to the webbing that tells where he bought it (Woodrow, Piccadilly) and the date, August '39.
And in "Post D" there are additions to Strachey's text confirming the truth of his observations.
posted via 90.252.99.43 user PeterC.
message 43889 - 12/10/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: The Value of 1st Editions was Re: Sale of 1st editions
I agree Peter, there are times when the physical book has almost as much importance as the text they contain. The first four or five AR's I have were my late brother (who died in childhood) and I have some other books that belonged to my late father, they all have an importance beyond their content.
posted via 95.150.15.63 user MTD.
message 43888 - 12/09/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: The Value of 1st Editions was Re: Sale of 1st editions
Another reason is to see the drawings in their best form (the pre WWII editions.)

I would have thought that this is the main reason to want, if not a first edition, certainly an early one. Plates do lose sharpness and definition with repeated printings.
But otherwise, I agree that as a matter of strict utility, an eBook version is as good as any print edition. I have a shelf-full of the original green Cape 12 hardbacks (except for ML, which has walked away some years ago and is unmissed), but for the ones I actually read reasonably often (WH, PP, PM) I have bought eBook versions.
I do acknowledge that there can be a special thrill in handling an early edition of a book, something that creates a tangible link with a special period in the past. In 1962 (he wrote in the margin) my father bought an original 1941 edition of "Post D- Some Experiences of an Air Raid Warden" by John Strachey. It's splendidly written with the same clarity and unfussy directness as AR's best, and the stories (fiction based on fact) bring the time, and its social assumptions, vividly to life. The book itself was a Gollancz utility edition, between plain blue boards in a yellow dust jacket which has literally fallen apart, and on paper full of acid which has turned it brown and is eating it away. But it's still readable, I keep it by my bed and have read it many times, and the very crumbling state of it takes me back to what Strachey is describing. I remember it as a small child, and I vividly remember the excitement of the sirens. Holding that contemporary book makes it all the sharper.
posted via 90.252.99.43 user PeterC.


message 43887 - 12/08/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Desert Island Discs
About 13 minutes in, in fact... (I thought I'd missed it.)
posted via 124.171.142.20 user mikefield.
message 43886 - 12/07/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: The Value of 1st Editions was Re: Sale of 1st editions
I agree Alex, I value AR's works for all the right reasons and its only recently I've acquired a few first editions. Another reason is to see the drawings in their best form (the pre WWII editions.)
posted via 95.149.55.239 user MTD.
message 43885 - 12/07/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: The Value of 1st Editions was Re: Sale of 1st editions
I've got a couple first editions --an AR (purely by chance) and a Kipling (a gift from a good friend)-- and they are on my shelf to be read. No, technically they offer nothing that a modern reprint doesn't already provide. There is a certain pleasure in handling them, though. Perhaps a reverence for the story? I don't think I would buy a First as an investment, and certainly not of a book that I didn't treasure the story itself, and it would have to be a story that has by its longevity earned a place as a valuable element within my literary psyche. But with the right book, there is definitely a sense of awe, along the lines of "wow! this is where it started!" that is fun.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43884 - 12/07/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: The Value of 1st Editions was Re: Sale of 1st editions
As someone who values books more for their content than their presentation, I cannot really understand those who value a first edition so much more highly than a new edition, or a good second hand copy of the 13th impression.
In my opinion, books are made to be read and even an ebook which is read is more valuable than a first edition kept locked up in a climate controlled bookshelf and never cracked open.
A painting or other work of art can be admired and is usually unique, so I can understand why someone would be prepared to pay more than the artist ever received for it, and I would include an illuminated handwritten book as a work of art. Similarly a very rare and very early printed book could be said to have historical value over and above its intrinsic worth as a book. However a 20th century author's first edition is virtually identical to all following editions and impressions and is basically an industrial product.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 43883 - 12/06/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Sale of 1st editions
It seems that this collection of AR first editions did not sell. The bottom estimate of £8,000 must have been too high. If this is true, then the auctioneers probably over-valued the books other than ‘Swallows and Amazons’. I read today in ‘Jibbooms and Bobstays’, the admirable Newsletter of the Nancy Blackett Trust, that for their marathon all-day reading of ‘We Didn’t Mean to Go to Sea’ in October they obtained a first edition for just £30.
posted via 86.148.81.120 user Peter_H.
message 43882 - 11/26/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Dowsing
There's quite a lively discussion about this on the Arthur Ransome Facebook page. You'll have to scroll down a bit to find it with this reference.
posted via 107.167.112.145 user awhakim.
message 43881 - 11/21/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Dowsing
A report on the BBC for news from Oxford shows that UK water companies are catching up with AR.
posted via 95.150.15.164 user MTD.
message 43876 - 11/21/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: CRAG FAST SHEEP
If so, they can't be all that rare.
posted via 81.129.127.149 user Peter_H.
message 43875 - 11/20/17
From: Paul, subject: Re: CRAG FAST SHEEP
Does that make a total of 30?
posted via 86.144.170.185 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43871 - 11/20/17
From: Dan Lind, subject: CRAG FAST SHEEP
BBC.com news tells of six rare sheep trapped on a ledge after being chased there by pet dogs. They were rescued by firefighters on the Jersey Island.
I bet they researched WH first to find out how to do it.
posted via 70.78.126.205 user captain.
message 43870 - 11/18/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Desert Island Discs
I've remembered, I think, the name of the woman who made the comment - Marghanita Laski.
posted via 95.149.130.62 user MTD.
message 43869 - 11/17/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Desert Island Discs
Thanks for bringing that to our attention.

If she is so sure of this why was so much money invested in the film last year and why are the 12 still all in pring in hardback and paperback?

I remember in the 1970s on 'Any Questions' a woman saying she went to France for her holidays as there was no beautiful countryside in the UK!
posted via 95.149.130.62 user MTD.


message 43868 - 11/17/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Desert Island Discs
This week's castaway is Anna Pavord, the gardener. She speaks of growing up in South Wales, roaming the hills with her brother and a gang influenced "by a man not very much in favour now, Arthur Ransome." Rather a sad reflection.
If you can get BBC iPlayer, the quote is about 11 minutes in.
posted via 107.167.113.33 user awhakim.
message 43867 - 11/16/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Sale of 1st editions
Either that or they loved Peter Duck so much that the book was read to pieces and had to be replaced.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 43866 - 11/16/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Sale of 1st editions
Interesting that the owner didn't like Peter Duck.
posted via 107.167.112.217 user awhakim.
message 43865 - 11/15/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Sale of 1st editions
Next week a collection of all 12 books will be sold by auction in Gloucestershire (UK). The 'Swallows and Amazons' copy is a 1st edition, with (apparently) original dust jacket with Spurrier maps. Most of the others are 1st editions. The estimate is £8,000-12,000. In case you’re interested, here’s the link:

Chorley’s – Sale of AR 1st Edns.


posted via 81.129.127.149 user Peter_H.


message 43864 - 11/13/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Stories: context
. . . and I have always imgined Nancy as being, like AR, a Foreign Correspondent for The Times or Guardian. In her case, she would look for the 'hottest' spots, of which there were plenty in the early forties!
David.
posted via 120.148.68.224 user David.
message 43863 - 11/12/17
From: John W, subject: Re: Stories: context
I like to think of Titty as a war artist (or photographer), and Dorothea as following in her creators footsteps and being a journalist.


posted via 86.19.218.132 user johnw.


message 43862 - 11/09/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: The Little People of the Wood
I hadn't noticed that! Shows he's a good seller!
posted via 95.146.184.217 user MTD.
message 43861 - 11/09/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: The Little People of the Wood
I cant see pages 4 and 5 anywhere, which is a real shame, otherwise we could enjoy the whole thing properly!

So who read Wayne Hammond's addendum and realised there was another mystery book out there? Maybe AR wrote a short story for 'The Book of the Month' in 1909/1910 too? Keep your eyes peeled in the secondhand bookshops everyone!
posted via 86.191.65.146 user Magnus.


message 43860 - 11/08/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: The Little People of the Wood
You can view the final pages if you scroll down through the seller's item description, it also includes Hammond's description from his addendum.
posted via 95.146.184.217 user MTD.
message 43859 - 11/08/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: The Little People of the Wood
Not quite. Wayne Hammond explains why here...
posted via 86.191.65.146 user Magnus.
message 43858 - 11/08/17
From: MarkD, subject: Re: The Little People of the Wood
Just had a quick look and there’s no copy in the TARS library
posted via 159.180.96.201 user MarkD.
message 43857 - 11/08/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: The Little People of the Wood
With Arthur Mee,no less. This one even seems to have escaped Wayne Hammond's Bibliography. See p.225.
posted via 86.148.217.232 user awhakim.
message 43856 - 11/08/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
I must say I missed the connection, Alan. But I doubt if Christina dates from, what was it? 1938. :)

If anyone knows any way of downloading this clip, rather than streaming it, I'd be grateful to learn how. My "streaming", even though I've finally got something to work after a fashion, is more like a few disconnected drips....
posted via 185.186.77.65 user mikefield.


message 43855 - 11/08/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: The Little People of the Wood
Interesting read. I liked how the charcoal burners wigwam appeared and the little observational details of the plants and animals.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 43854 - 11/08/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: The Little People of the Wood
One of Ransome's very early books, from around 1909, is for sale on ebay at present. This 24 page story is so rare that I have never seen a copy in the last ten years.

I'm telling you not so you can bid for it (the price is already over £100) but rather that you grab the chance to look at the photos, for you may never get another opportunity to see a copy!

The seller has photographed about 90% of the book's pages, so you can almost read the whole story. See what you think of the style of writing...

posted via 86.191.65.146 user Magnus.
message 43853 - 11/08/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
In all this discussion, plus arguments on how to get a download (on the other side of this thread, and Facebook) there was a passing complaint that they are on a Margoletta. But has nobody noticed that in fact it's the Lady Christina? Doesn't the name Hardyment come to mind?
posted via 107.167.112.216 user awhakim.
message 43852 - 11/08/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
Okay, finally got it with the aid of a free VPN. Limited downloads though, and jerky. I guess it'll do....
posted via 88.150.131.210 user mikefield.
message 43851 - 11/07/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
Thanks Dave. That's the conclusion I'd come to as well. I don't really want to pay for a VPN that I'd use only once in a blue moon, so I've been putting off doing it. There are a few free ones though, which I'm investigating.

Also, Alan has suggested a private workaround to me, for which I'm most grateful.
posted via 165.227.55.125 user mikefield.


message 43850 - 11/07/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
I've not tried any of this but as a guess, part of what is happening is that the software (Channel 4, iPlayer, and/or Flash) is checking your IP address to see if it's in the declared code area. You might be able to get around this by using something like TOR or see this article on VPNs and how to fool destinations as to where you came from: https://medium.freecodecamp.org/how-to-set-up-a-vpn-in-5-minutes-for-free-and-why-you-urgently-need-one-d5cdba361907.

But the effort might be more than the results warrant, as as the old advert says, "your mileage may vary".

posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43849 - 11/06/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
Channel 4 is funded by the UK government just as the BBC is, but they're not connected (though that's maybe why your having similar problems as people do using the BBC's iPlayer.)
posted via 95.150.15.165 user MTD.
message 43848 - 11/06/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
Ah. Thanks Peter, now I've got you. I clicked on 'Ireland' but, as with you, it reverted to the US. And it still doesn't work. Aaargh!

I appreciate your efforts though -- very many thanks.

Is Channel 4 a part of the BBC as Adam suggests, do you know?
posted via 124.171.146.111 user mikefield.


message 43847 - 11/06/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
Mike - if I go to http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/about/ (sorry, no time to do active link) I get the 'Adobe Flash Player' home screen - at bottom left there is a 'choose region' button. If you click that, you should get a list including 'Australia'. However, if I click on 'Australia', I am sent back to the home screen, which then indicates 'United States'. Can't explain this. Worth a try, anyway.
posted via 81.132.174.210 user Peter_H.
message 43846 - 11/06/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
That is what I see from Canada too. I am used to the BBC not allowing overseas viewers but have no experience with Channel 4.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 43845 - 11/05/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
Thanks again,Peter. From what screen are you selecting 'Choose Your Region'?

I haven't even got that far yet. As soon as I click on your original link I go to what looks the starting screen of the 47 min episode, with the Play button in the middle of a lovely picture of the two of them on what looks a red-painted steel narrowboat. But clicking on the arrow (or the lower one, on the timeline) produces just nothing at all.

Having just come back from a week on the Broads, I'd really like to see their take on it. (More about my time in Ransome country when I get some photos up and running.)

Below that picture mentioned is a list of other episodes -- some of which I'd also like to watch -- with a box stating "Only show episodes I can play" already ticked. But none of them works. Very frustrating....
posted via 124.171.146.111 user mikefield.


message 43844 - 11/05/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
I've just clicked on 'Choose your Region' and then on 'Australia' and ended up with 'United States'. This keeps happening. I think Channel 4 has problems in this area - if you Google on 'Adobe Flash Channel 4' you'll see a long list of issues. I am not sufficiently technically knowledgeable to steer through these, but I suspect, alas, that the 'Canals' programme is not available on demand in your area. To be honest, it's not a 'must watch' AR programme - just a pleasant interlude really.
posted via 81.132.173.188 user Peter_H.
message 43843 - 11/04/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
Thanks Peter. I did indeed update Flash before I started, but no luck. I didn't see an option to 'Choose Your Region', but maybe I missed it? If so, extra guidance would be most welcome.

However, I did see an option to Register myself with Ch 4, but when I tried that my only country choice was UK or Eire. So perhaps it's only a local service anyway? :(
posted via 124.171.146.111 user mikefield.


message 43842 - 11/04/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
Mike - Before the programme would start, I was instructed to update Adobe Flash first - there was a button to do this. If the button hasn't appeared, you could go to http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/about/
and check the version required for your browser. You could also click on 'Choose your Region', which includes Australia.
(Apologies if you know all this, and anyway it may not work.)

posted via 81.129.95.27 user Peter_H.
message 43841 - 11/04/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
I'd love to watch it (and others in the series), but all I get is a tantalising static picture. Aaargh!
posted via 124.171.146.111 user mikefield.
message 43840 - 11/03/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Morse Code
Morse code is not dead yet. The headlines a few years ago referred to the use of morse as a primary means of ship-to-shore communication and the two five-minute periods each hour when radio traffic was kept to a minimum so as to keep the airwaves free for emergency traffic.

The armed forces still use morse code by radio and light. The latter is regularly used by warships for line-of-sight communication. It has the advantage of being directional (with a proper signalling lamp) and un-jammable. As a watch keeping officer I was expected to be able to send and receive at 5 words per minute, a pathetically low speed compared to our experienced tactical signalmen. With a lightweight lamp all you see was a continuous flicker of light.
posted via 2.102.116.46 user MartinH.


message 43839 - 11/01/17
From: Paul, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
You're right, Peter. I, too found it peaceful and Ransomean, a splendid word - it deserves a place in the OED straight away - which instantly sums up all we like about his descriptions of people and places. Our local canal, the Basingstoke, is five minutes' walk away, and whenever I walk the dog along the tow path in the Spring I think of scenes from CC.

The slow television programmes are very good. The other evening I watched the two hour canal boat chug along the Kennet & Avon, and felt totally relaxed after a somewhat hectic day. The first time I saw it I thought it was a pity AR had not set something on a narrow boat. Malcolm Saville redressed the balance, and now the Wests have almost combined the two.
posted via 5.81.204.24 user Paul_Crisp.


message 43838 - 11/01/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
True, perhaps I was too critical (and I was aware of Prunella Scales onset of dementia), perhaps it comes from knowing the books so well! I did think it was a pity it was all squashed in to one programme.
posted via 2.29.96.120 user MTD.
message 43837 - 11/01/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
Yes, if Prunella Scales had read CC a few months ago she would most likely have forgotten it now. Instead she relied on long-term memory of reading AR as a child, which I found quite genuine. The programme is not meant to be accurate reportage of a "the Norfolk Broads today" type, but is a film of a gentle cruise, mainly playing on the affectionate and whimsical relationship of the couple. It is really part of the "slow television" fashion at the moment. I found it peaceful and somehow Ransomean. We do hear about some modern hullabaloos being apprehended!
posted via 31.51.45.214 user Peter_H.
message 43836 - 11/01/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
Don't be too hard on Prunella Scales. She is suffering from dementia.

Not having seen the canal programmes, I can't compare it, but it passed a pleasant hour. I would have liked to see the railway posters advertising Broads Holidays featured as well as the boating catalogues.
posted via 88.110.85.110 user Mike_Jones.


message 43835 - 11/01/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
Sorry to disagree Peter, but I found the programme disappointing other than some great footage of the broads from the air (and as much as I admire both of them for their acting.) To be told that the Broads themselves are 'man made' is a 'secret' was odd!

There were moments when Prunella Scales comments about CC came across as if she had never read the book until asked to for the programme.

They could have made more about how AR was actually highlighting that the increase in tourist usage even in the 1930s was harming the Broads, it was busy with hire boats when I visited as a child in the 1960s but some of the footage would maybe put people off going there at all!

So for the two of them that's the Broads done and dusted, previous series have covered a whole area's canals and waterways.
posted via 2.29.96.120 user MTD.


message 43834 - 10/30/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: AR eBooks
I know Amazon will sell me stuff from their US site, though they do push the Canadian site when I try it. So I hope Chapters will let your mother buy Ransome ebooks.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 43833 - 10/30/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: TV 'Coot Club' trip
If you have an hour to spare, I recommend an episode of the Channel 4 'Great Canal Journeys' series (including waterways) starring veteran actors Timothy West and Prunella Scales. This episode features the Norfolk Broads - they hire a restored 1938 launch and set off from Horning. Prunella was brought up on Ransome and has 'Coot Club' with her, and quotes from it frequently. Good camera-work, and there's some historical footage as well. It's very peaceful - no drama, but quiet and charming. Margoletta they are not, but a fair amount of red wine is consumed . . .

Timothy West and Prunella Scales on Coot Club journey

posted via 31.51.45.214 user Peter_H.


message 43832 - 10/30/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: AR eBooks

Thanks Adam. I've both bookmarked the site for myself and sent it to my mother. Hopefully they'll sell to those of us south of Lat 49.

Yes, Kobo and Nook both use ePub.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43831 - 10/30/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Stories: context
But there is a new biography of Powell being serialised on Radio 4 this week - 1.45 pm daily.

Thank you, yes. I've got it on Kindle and reading it now.
Well worth it. The pleasure of relating the life to the novels is great.

posted via 90.252.108.93 user PeterC.


message 43830 - 10/30/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Stories: context
My answer to this is to get a Kobo instead of a Kindle.

Maybe. I was referring there to an iPad, which I use with the Kindle app because navigation and searches are so much better than on my (early) Kindle. But the Kindle is ex-my wife's, and she is against half measures so it has front illumination by flip-up LED, which works very well. It's just the user interface which is a pain in the bum. I'm sure the newer ones must be better.
posted via 90.252.108.93 user PeterC.


message 43829 - 10/30/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: AR eBooks
I bought mine from Chapters Indigo. It is a Canadian company so I don't know what their policy is for selling to other countries. Mine were for the Kobo ereader but I think Nook and Kobo both use the epub file format.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 43828 - 10/29/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Stories: context
"...although best read in the shade."

My answer to this is to get a Kobo instead of a Kindle. They're front-lit with adjustable levels of brightness, and can be read if necessary on a moonless midnight inside a snake's stomach. :)
posted via 124.171.146.111 user mikefield.


message 43827 - 10/29/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Stories: context
But there is a new biography of Powell being serialised on Radio 4 this week - 1.45 pm daily.
posted via 107.167.113.32 user awhakim.
message 43826 - 10/29/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: AR eBooks

At long last my mother has been reading S&A. She is thoroughly enjoying them (no surprise), and has just finished PD. Her preferred medium is eBook --specifically Nook-- but while she has found up through WH, and then WDMTGTS, she can't find the others. Can anyone point me (thus her) to a source?

Thanks,
Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43825 - 10/29/17
From: Mark D, subject: Rugby School
Just spent the weekend at Rugby School, AR's alma mater, as a friend of mine is a boarding house master there. It's quite a lovely school, and was lovely to sit on the Close and imagine the famous faces looking on it as boys.

https://sophieneville.net/2013/12/11/unveiling-a-plaque-to-arthur-ransome-at-rugby-school/

posted via 148.252.129.180 user MarkD.


message 43824 - 10/29/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Stories: context
Kindle may be the answer. The paperback I have been given is in depressingly small print.

Kindle is the answer to most things, provided that an electronic version of the book is available. Overy's account is on the dense side, and small print must make it harder going. I read my Kindle books on an iPad Mini, where the print is hyper-clear although best read in the shade. You can get magnetic soft covers very cheaply, and they fit into the same pocket as a paperback, although much thinner. Searching for and finding text, and navigation, is much better than on the early Kindle machine I also have.
And of course, although this is definitely off topic, it's a rather nice camera permanently in your pocket.
Drawbacks? Battery life isn't as long as the Kindle's, although what are night times for? And I would like to get Anthony Powell's memoirs but they are both out of print and not in ebook. Drat.
posted via 90.252.108.93 user PeterC.


message 43823 - 10/29/17
From: Paul, subject: Re: Morse Code
Reading an account of the Palestine campaign in the Great War I came across mention of an Indian Army telegrapher who could receiver and answer an incoming message with one hand whilst forwarding it with the other. When the British officers who saw this expressed surprise the chap said that it was commonplace with telegraphers from the Indian railways - obviously it was
-. --- .--. .-. --- -... .-.. . --
posted via 5.81.204.24 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43822 - 10/28/17
From: Dan Lind, subject: Re: Morse Code
I;m so pleased to read that while Morse is gone - more or less - it is not forgotten. I learned sending Morse from a Canadian key, and was surprised when I went to sea to find the Marconi key, built like a tank complete with a big knob, and as I recall, ball-bearings. It stuck out on the edge of the desk and there was no place to put your elbow. I soon fixed that by removing the Marconi from the desk, installing a flexible cord, and removing that big knob; Those were the days....
posted via 70.78.126.205 user captain.
message 43821 - 10/28/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Stories: context
Kindle may be the answer. The paperback I have been given is in depressingly small print.
posted via 88.110.92.248 user Mike_Jones.
message 43820 - 10/28/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Stories: context
Dick's role in inventing the cavity magnetron is of course well known.

Really? I always thought that the names of the real inventors/developers, Randall and Boot were so perfect, I had Dick down as working on Gee and Oboe. I always like to think that he might have run across Roger in the RAF.
posted via 90.252.108.93 user PeterC.


message 43819 - 10/28/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Stories: context
I am currently reading "The Morbid Age - Britain and the Crisis of Civilization 1919 - 1939" by Richard Overy.
And now, so am I. Thank you for the heads up. And thank heaven for Kindle.
posted via 90.252.108.93 user PeterC.
message 43818 - 10/27/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Morse Code
In learning Morse Code, there are certain memory gimmicks that can help, such as, for "Q", which suggests "QUEEN" - and that reminds me of: "GOD SAVE the QUEEN" - note which words receive emphasis and take more time, whereas the "the" is quick and short, so the code that is suggested is "DASH, DASH, DOT, DASH", the code for "Q".

There is a "secret" that almost everyone knows, and that is the little line that goes: "SHAVE AND A HAIR CUT, TWO BITS". When this is spoken the "AND A" part is a pair of words but spoken rather quickly together, whereas the other words are held longer. If one is knocking at the door of a friend, one might want to use this "secret" code to indicate that "Hey, it's ME out here..." The knocking of this phrase sounds like: "tap, taptap, tap tap - pause - tap tap". If this tapping was interpreted to be Morse Code, the double taptap done quickly together is the DASH, whereas the others are just single taps. As for timing, the time to do a "TAP" is the SAME as the "TAPTAP" - reminds me of the DOUBLE CLICK on a computer MOUSE. So when tapping in Morse, the distinguishing feature is NOT the "DASH takes 3 times longer" as that is the rule for sending Morse using a flashlight, or a whistle. There is a certain beat the sender uses such that a unit of time is spent in sending the TAP as is spend in sending the TAPTAP, with two units of time for the "PAUSE" which indicates the end of that CHARACTER, or five units of time to indicate the end of a WORD.

So the SHAVE and a HAIR CUT, TWO BITS, when tapped, is MORSE for: "DOT, DASH, DOT, DOT - pause - DOT DOT" which is the code for "L" and "I".

One cannot TAP a Short tap for DOT, and a LONG TAP for DASH. Length of time cannot be used to distinguish the tapped DOT from the tapped DASH. To try to distinguish by a different timing, one gets ambiguous meanings, as one might try to pause a moment to tap for a DASH, but what is then the difference between a DASH, and a DOT at the end of the character? The PAUSE is a separator, not a part of the letter.

A long TAP? Doesn't work. A BANG is a BANG is a BANG.

At least, this is the way that was taught to me as a kid, and we made use of it, using the steam pipes and a system of radiators to communicate to anywhere in the building - that tapping sound really carries through those pipes.

Years ago, I saw this same explanation in a SEA SCOUTS handbook.

If the OFFICIAL SCOUT concept has dropped Morse code, that may not be in there any more, unless one finds an OLD copy somewhere.

Hope this helps understand the how.

The problem with learning Morse is trying to find someone else likewise interested to practice with.

A note of warning: do not try to tap using the knuckles, as that skin won't last more than a few words, but use the butt end of a pocket knife for example instead, or some other tool.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43817 - 10/27/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Morse Code
I assumed CF simply whacked harder for the dashes than for the dots.
posted via 88.110.92.248 user Mike_Jones.
message 43816 - 10/27/17
From: Peter Wagner, subject: Morse Code
In a recent post, {Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)), Ed mentioned tapping in Morse Code. I have never been happy with the concept of reliably sending Morse Code by tapping, as a dash (dah) is three times as long as a dot (dit). Tapping just produces a transient sound not a sustained sound. So "M" (- -) would sound very similar to "EE" (. .) et cetera (just for a bit of Latin too!).
posted via 94.250.228.202 user PeterW.
message 43815 - 10/26/17
From: Harry Milldf, subject: Re: For Harry Miller
Thanks for the wake up call Mike and for the link I must have missed in 2008
posted via 76.64.142.166 user dreadnaught.
message 43814 - 10/26/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Stories: context
While it is good to see AR in such distinguished company, to suggest that he supported Stalin seems a bit rich.

Quite bonkers, I'd have thought. His real passion was for Lenin, wasn't it? Apart from Genia, of course.
posted via 90.252.108.93 user PeterC.


message 43813 - 10/25/17
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Stories: context
But I thought that Nancy was in SOE? In Missee Lee (p188) she hints that she was good at French. I gather that the files are still subject to the 100-year rule, so whatever it was must have been of exceptional secrecy.

Dick's role in inventing the cavity magnetron is of course well known. Without him the Battle of the Atlantic might have taken an entirely different course.


posted via 86.186.129.248 user RobinSelby.


message 43812 - 10/25/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
I must admit I agree Peter (about Dorothea), along with Nancy I've always felt these are AR's most realistic characters

I think that may be because the originals were close by. Dot, I believe, was AR's affectionate satirical take on himself, the author. Nancy might well have been drawn in part from Taqui Altounyan, the other half of who would have been John. Obviously, you always have to bear in mind that they are imaginary characters. I can't see any of them as clones, except perhaps for Roger Walker/Altounyan, who is described in SA as being teased for his interest in steam ships instead of sail, and who in real life became a flying instructor. I find it hard to think of him as being much different from his AR character.
posted via 90.252.108.93 user PeterC.


message 43811 - 10/24/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Stories: context
I have speculated in this way myself Peter.

My views (and please everyone remember this is no more than a game) that John was in the Navy but nothing as outstanding as he may have hoped for, Roger in the Navy too but taken prisoner in the far east.

Ted Walker, I imagine would have been heavily involved (as being already in the Navy) but is killed in the early years of the war.

Susan, also in the Navy but in a far more important work than any of the others desk-base. Dick, a definite for Bletchley Park recruited from university.

I agree with you about Nancy and feel she would have been frustrated by the lack of action!

Titty and Dorothea I imagine surviving in London, with Titty having a good time much in the way Mary Wesley wrote of her own wartime experiences in her novel 'The Camomile Lawn'. As for Peggy, I don't know, probably tried to be like Nancy but never quite achieved it.
posted via 2.31.102.228 user MTD.


message 43810 - 10/24/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
I must admit I agree Peter (about Dorothea), along with Nancy I've always felt these are AR's most realistic characters. I know from posts here that Susan has her supporters but other than in WDMTGTS she always seems too perfect!
posted via 2.31.102.228 user MTD.
message 43809 - 10/24/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
Thanks Martin, I was curious as to begin with I had trouble with reading (looking back I would now have been probably diagnosed as being dyslexic) but it all fell in to place when I was about 8 or 9 and I became the kind of reader you describe.
posted via 2.31.102.228 user MTD.
message 43808 - 10/24/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Stories: context
An interesting post, Peter. I am currently reading "The Morbid Age - Britain and the Crisis of Civilization 1919 - 1939" by Richard Overy. It provides a very thorough backdrop to the literary world of the Twenties and Thirties, e.g. AR's sympathy with developments in Russia until the death of Lenin and the removal of Trotzky, and the preoccupations of the Dons in Dorothy L. Sayers' "Gaudy Night".

On the perennial question of AR's politics, in Tuesday's "Times" Melanie Phillips, comparing the evils of fascism and communism, refers to "many other cultural figures who supported Stalin and the Soviet Union, such as the writers Sidney and Beatrice Webb, Arthur Ransome, Bertolt Brecht, Picasso, Charlie Chaplin and more."

While it is good to see AR in such distinguished company, to suggest that he supported Stalin seems a bit rich.

posted via 88.110.92.248 user Mike_Jones.


message 43807 - 10/24/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Stories: context
I've just been going through WH (yet) again. I usually have several books on the go, the other current ones being the memoirs of Barbara Skelton "Tears Before Bed-Time", which couldn't be more unlike AR's stories, and is great fun, and "The Auden Generation" by Samuel Hines, about the generation of English poets in the 1930s, and which covers much of the period in which AR's stories were written and take place. It covers that time in which young poets were trying to get over the fact that they had failed to participate in the Great War of '14-'18, and so failed to be able to prove themselves as their immediate predecessors had done, and felt it terribly keenly. They were also fascinated and terrified by the coming war, foretold by the rise of the Nazis and Fascists, by the Spanish Civil War, in which several of their number died, and which presented them with an existential question; what use were they, what use was their poetry?
Reading this in between bouts of the igloo in the snow, and Molly Blackett cheerfully visiting from Beckfoot all, thanks to the skill of AR, vivid and realistic, creates a completely real place and time. And it does, as we have discussed here, lead to questions like "Was Ted Walker on the planning staff for D-Day?" We know what Roger did (RAF flying instructor). How about Dick? War Office science? Radio navigation? And Susan, hugely methodical and trustworthy. Bletchley Park? Dot, Titty, Peggy- cypherines? Maybe in the middle east (that happened to Barbara Skelton- but she became a mistress of, among many others, King Farouk, who whipped her with a pyjama cord on the steps of the palace, in Cairo. I'm not sure that this would have tempted any of AR's girls) Nancy might have run a chunk of the ATS or, the nearest thing to being freelance, run her own transport/ambulance unit? Or, of course, Farouk. She was lively enough.
The point is, reading the books together does open all of them to wider ideas. Makes them all the better.
posted via 90.255.62.49 user PeterC.
message 43806 - 10/24/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
Mike Dennis asked, "Do you think you were an exceptional reader"

I probably was, but at the time probably didn't think so. At home we were encouraged to read from an early age, and I read anything I could get my hands on: books, comics, backs of cereal packets etc. When starting senior school we were given a reading list and were told that by the end of the year we should have read at least twelve books from it. I could tick off far more than twelve so went on with reading what I wanted.

A that time I was reading a wide variety: The "Biggles" books, Green Sailors, the Lone Pine series, the Jennings books, SF authors such as Asimov and Heinlein; classics like The Railway Children, Mary Poppins and Kidnapped.

I still tend to be an enthusiastic and eclectic reader, though with a high percentage of non-fiction. Some of those childhood books seem dated now, but the S&A series are as good as ever.
posted via 2.102.116.46 user MartinH.


message 43805 - 10/24/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
Thank you Alex.

The copy of ML I had was my mother's childhood copy, printed on wartime utility paper. Similarly the copy of SD. Now this is now in a state of near ruin. I read it so often that that the spine was damaged and the front cover is falling off.

The sinking of Wild Cat and the way that Swallow and Amazon separated afterwards always moved me. But I was excited by the escape of Shining Moon through the gorge and although I didn't initially grasp the details understood that it was a great feat of seamanship.
posted via 2.102.116.46 user MartinH.


message 43804 - 10/24/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
However, it is now one of those I don't read much at all.

Same here. In fact, I have the green JCs lined up in my book case, and discovered when I wanted to look up something that ML was the only one missing. I have no idea where it might be.
These days there's always the possibility of downloading a Kindle copy. I've done that for my favourites- PM and WH, which I dip into on park benches and in cafés. Instant pleasure and relaxation.
You can tell that I'm in love with Dorothea.
posted via 90.255.62.49 user PeterC.


message 43803 - 10/23/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)

"And you may, yourselves, have read in the newspapers how the people of St. Mawes, in Cornwall, woke one morning to find a little Chinese junk, with a monkey at the masthead, anchored off their harbor mouth."

We read ML at the same age, and with the same ignorance that it was metafiction. It was my favorite at the time; I literally read the (dust) cover off the book (it's now tucked inside the boards). However, it is now one of those I don't read much at all.
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43802 - 10/23/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
Though we have different views on ML Martin, interesting that you say you read it when you were 6 or 7. Do you think you were an exceptional reader (my wife's granddaughter was, so much so she pretended at primary school she was less able than she was!) These days when you look at the books aimed at that age group they are certainly not the calibre of AR!
posted via 2.31.102.228 user MTD.
message 43801 - 10/23/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
I have always enjoyed ML, and as it was one the first of AR's books I read (probably aged 6 or 7) it was a while before I realised that it, along with PD, was metafiction.

I think the last sentence is one of my favourites - the people of St Mawes waking to find a Chinese junk at anchor with a monkey at the masthead. Sorry I don't have a copy to hand, so provide the exact quotation.

posted via 2.102.116.46 user MartinH.


message 43800 - 10/22/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Trip to the UK
Thanks for posting that link, Mike. It was quite moving. I could easily relate to being unable to keep up with the demands of a boat, but also the attachment which one feels toward it. I still like to hear from friends how Swallow is faring. Her new owners are live-aboards, so have changed the interior to provide the necessary extra comforts which that lifestyle needs.
posted via 120.148.68.224 user David.
message 43799 - 10/22/17
From: Ancient Tarboarder, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
Oh yes, Peter, oh yes.
posted via 86.139.51.242 user beardbiter.
message 43798 - 10/22/17
From: beardbiter, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
Seems a long time since I last posted on Tarboard- Facebook is just too easy...
Anyway, I wonder if the pike was as tasty as the one I ate in Russia last winter?
As for ML, it seems a bit perverse to have this as one's favourite, seeing as it belongs to a different genre to most of the canon. Nevertheless, it has its admirers, including me. The twists and turns of the plot are excellent and entirely coherent, given the characters and the setting AR so skilfully evokes. And the Latin lessons are ingenious, entirely original as well as being highly amusing. I did study Latin at school, so I can't read ML from the position of someone who never sat through amo, alas, I loved a lass, but I'm sure that most people who've ever been to any kind of school can get the general picture.
posted via 86.139.51.242 user beardbiter.
message 43797 - 10/22/17
From: Paul, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
There still is. Local branches of the English Classical Association have adopted the American concept of a Latin quiz known as the Certamen, and many of the initial questions used came from there.This idea was introduced to our branch by an American teacher of classics, who has now returned to...Maryland!
posted via 81.151.253.76 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43796 - 10/22/17
From: Paul, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
And, so the story goes, in the Granite City, they greet you with "We have a lovely tea... and it's very reasonably priced."
posted via 81.151.253.76 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43795 - 10/22/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
I went to high school in the late 50s in Maryland. I'd read ML by then and it got me interested in Latin. My school actually offered Latin and I tried to sign up for my language requirement, but the courses were all full. So there seems to have been some interest even in the U.S.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43794 - 10/22/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
Ed - Latin in ML :- you need to remember that when AR wrote ML in 1941 Latin was still a standard subject in most schools in the UK, so he assumed his readers would get the jokes. He had thrown away his school Latin Grammar, so had to borrow one from the children of Margaret Renold and of course they had one. I went to school in the 1950s and of course did Latin, and I found the 'learning Latin' passages in ML entertaining and ingenious - it was through Latin that they persuaded Missee Lee to release Captain Flint. I still laugh every time I read Capn Flint stammering "magnissimus . . .Magnanimous?"

AR was entitled to assume his British readers would get the Latin jokes. He was not to know that 70-80 years later Latin would be taught in very few schools. "Those little Latin samples" are part of the period charm of AR, and I would not like to have done without them.
posted via 81.132.174.50 user Peter_H.


message 43793 - 10/22/17
From: Mike Field, subject: For Harry Miller
Harry, scroll down to your post about Lulu dated 23 August to see my reply.

Minor further news on the trip to be posted soon.

[ Image ]

posted via 124.171.217.142 user mikefield.


message 43792 - 10/22/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
Particularly the ones that live in Morningside (or so I was told by a Scottish friend years ago) and they have very RP accents!
posted via 2.29.89.67 user MTD.
message 43791 - 10/21/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Trip to the UK
Thanks Harry. We did indeed have a great trip. But regrettably we didn't catch up with John after all, as he had to appear at a meeting right when we'd planned to join him in Falmouth -- apparently some viaduct or other would have fallen over without his presence.

I too remember his 'Lulu' stories very fondly, along with Kate's lovely illustrations for them. And I daresay that you, like me, hoped the stories and paintings might be published one day. But it seems that life got in the way, as it so often does, and it's not going to be. :(

You and I are not the only ones who remember Lulu fondly, by the way. Check out this link from nine years ago.

posted via 124.171.217.142 user mikefield.
message 43790 - 10/21/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
I believe the Edinburghers are more 'English' than the Glaswegians. :)
posted via 124.171.217.142 user mikefield.
message 43789 - 10/21/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
I entirely agree with you, Mike.
posted via 124.171.217.142 user mikefield.
message 43788 - 10/21/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
Regular listeners to Radio 4's I'm Sorry, I Haven't a Clue will be familiar with the line "You'll have had your tea".
posted via 109.180.8.45 user eclrh.
message 43787 - 10/21/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
With regard to the presence of LATIN in ML, it is nice to find something that Roger is the local expert on, but don't make the reader have to likewise be a LATIN expert in order to "get it". Those little Latin samples became "Multitudinus Crapidus" that I could have done without.

It is not "fun" for our friends to consider having the "heads chopped off." Such is cruel, whereas in WD, their need to use sailing skills in order to SAVE THEIR LIVES in the fog and high winds at night is challenging, letting them prove their abilities.

To me, the highlight of delight in ML was the use of Tapping in Morse code when CF was imprisoned below decks, yet was able to communicate with Nancy on the deck.

A similar highlight (using Morse with serious intent) was in WH, when Nancy saw the light flashing "NP" telling her, the D's were at the "North Pole".

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]

posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43786 - 10/21/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
Interesting Dan, I think that's the first time I've read anyone saying that ML is their favourite of The Twelve. I have to admit it's my least favourite.

PD I can accept as a 'made up' story from the S & A's enthusiasm for 'Treasure Island' but ML just pushes that notion too far, I think I've only read it three or four times and most recently as an academic exercise to see how and if it connected to the others.
posted via 2.29.89.67 user MTD.


message 43785 - 10/20/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
When I was travelling in Scotland last month, a Glaswegian told me that if you dropped in unexpectedly on someone in Glasgow you'd be asked, "You'll have some tea, won't you?", whereas if it happened in Edinburgh the question would be, "You'll have had your tea, won't you?"

Having received warm welcomes in Glasgow and remote (albeit polite) ones in Edinburgh, I reckon that sounds about right.
posted via 124.171.217.142 user mikefield.


message 43784 - 10/20/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
" She'd grown up with breakfast, lunch, dinner, supper."

Me too (Melbourne in the 40s), although often dinner was also referred to as tea, the words being essentially used synonymously. If there were guests coming for that meal though it was always referred to as the more formal 'dinner'.
posted via 124.171.217.142 user mikefield.


message 43783 - 10/20/17
From: Dan Lind, subject: Re: 15lb Pike caught in Martham
My favorite line is, "Bamboo", from my favorite of The Twelve. ML shows the most imagination.
posted via 70.78.126.205 user captain.
message 43782 - 10/20/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: 15lb Pike caught in Martham
Well at least this guy still has something to live for

And that, other than what I believe is everybody's favourite line as the snow starts to fall in WH, is my favourite thought in AR's books.

posted via 90.255.62.49 user PeterC.


message 43781 - 10/20/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: 15lb Pike caught in Martham
Well at least this guy still has something to live for
posted via 184.151.36.89 user rlcossar.
message 43780 - 10/18/17
From: Woll, subject: 15lb Pike caught in Martham
Only half the Death and Glories'!

posted via 87.113.240.86 user Woll.
message 43779 - 10/15/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?
Of the ones you listed, the closest is Milan, Italy. Only about 800 miles out! Clearly Opera has a number of server farms to which I am randomly attached.
Firefox allocates me to Emsworth, Hampshire, the next town down the road, about 30 minutes walk.
posted via 107.167.112.219 user awhakim.
message 43778 - 10/14/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Country Diary
AR mentioned in the Country Diary in Saturday's Guardian:
posted via 109.180.8.45 user eclrh.
message 43777 - 10/13/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?

Alan,

So of all those I listed, which one is closest to accurate?

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43776 - 10/12/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?
That was better - only one mile out. Back to Opera for this one - see you in New Zealand?
posted via 107.167.112.145 user awhakim.
message 43775 - 10/12/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?
That's a good point, Alex. When I checked my own address this morning, I was said to be in Central China. Since everything in the shops is Made in China now, I assumed this was part of the general trend of life. However, I wasn't aware of doing a rapid world tour during the day, so I have gone on to a Firefox browser to see if it anchors me to home. This morning was Opera.
posted via 86.148.217.209 user awhakim.
message 43774 - 10/12/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?

Alan,

That's a good point, about tracking the IP address. I'm so used to VPNs and TOR muddying the water that I never bother, but I doubt that's much of an issue here on Tarboard. Besides (and I don't mean this to sound critical of you or anyone else who does that bit of sleuthing), I always feel like a stalker...

All that said, it looks like it isn't infallible: plugging in your IP address to five different IP locators has you variously near Albequerque, New Mexico, USA; Milan, Italy; San Mateo, California, USA; Jakarta, Indonesia; or somewhere in the middle of China. So either you're running TOR, you've got an *exhausting* travel schedule, or the internet search engines aren't entirely reliable (shocking, I know).

But yes, I'm in Olympia, WA. The very south end of Puget Sound.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43773 - 10/12/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?
To veer off in a technical direction, if you read any post using the Latest Tarboard Messages log, it has a final line giving the IP address. If you feed that to a lookup program (e.g. whatismyipaddress.com) it will tell you where the Internet thinks the writer's computer is located.
In your case, Alex, it says Washington State. Correct?
posted via 107.167.112.216 user awhakim.
message 43772 - 10/11/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?

Paul,

I have often bumped into that same uncertainty about just where a Tarboardian is located. Yes, a Dutch barge on Puget Sound would certainly demand a properly AR adventure, wouldn't it?

As for pictures, I haven't yet figured out how to use this website's italics yet, let alone post photos, but maybe I'll learn for the occasion.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43771 - 10/11/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Barbara Altounyan
She was on for a third time a few minutes ago. As far as I know, this completes the series.
posted via 109.180.8.45 user eclrh.
message 43770 - 10/11/17
From: Andy, subject: Re: Barbara Altounyan
It was an excellent interview. I was in the car when the name 'Barbara Altounyan' was mentioned, and thought 'surely she's..?' :)

And today, heading off to the morning shop, I put the radio on to hear 'Arthur Ransome...' on a programme relating to the 100th anniversary of the Russian Revolution. It didn't go into much detail, but - probably correctly - referred to him as one of many English in Russia who were 'intoxicated' by the social changes they were witnessing.

Andy
posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.


message 43769 - 10/11/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?
Alex,
One of the problems of being an occasional Tarboard user is that one doesn't always know where in the world live those with whom one is conversing. If you lived in the UK or Europe you could have found a Dutch barge fairly easily. I agree that to get one to Puget Sound would be... challenging - but oh what a book in the AR style you could make of it!
I look forward to seeing pictures when you do find your floating library.

Paul
posted via 31.48.73.116 user Paul_Crisp.


message 43768 - 10/10/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?

I have to agree that Chico looks closer to Pterodactyl, to me, and by size alone seems to fit the bill better --but I know absolutely nothing about motor yachts of the area and of the era. I'm only judging by the two illustrations: the size of Jemmerling's library and the general appearance from "Peggy at the cross-trees."

As for my own boat-cum-library, a Dutch barge would be fantastic, but there aren't too many over here, and none on the market here in Puget Sound. The best candidate I've found so far is a retired BC Forest Service boat.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43767 - 10/10/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Swallows and amazon.com
It is surprisingly difficult to write a passage, let alone a book, in anything approaching Ransome's style. The Times comic effort may have been a brave stab, but it still fell short, in my view. IIRC, some years ago there was a competition in TARS to see if anyone could write a reasonably convincing continuation of the story of "Coots in the North". I don't think anyone managed it.
posted via 81.129.95.180 user Peter_H.
message 43766 - 10/10/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Barbara Altounyan
Barbara Altounyan, daughter of Roger, was on the BBC Radio 4 programme "PM" yesterday (Monday) and again today in connection with her (fairly new) charity The Hospice Biographers.
posted via 109.180.8.45 user eclrh.
message 43765 - 10/10/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?
Chico seems to fit the bill better than Rania; LOA 73ft to Rania's 45ft, and more importantly a 16ft beam rather than R's 10ft 3". She also instinctively "looks" right (I had noticed that before this correspondence). Chico has an interesting history some of which is on her website. On 31st May 1940 she took 1000 men off the beach at Dunkirk and out to the larger ships. Next day she returned home with another 100 men aboard. I like the photo on the Association of Dunkirk Little Ships site showing her twin Lewis gun mounting. Just think of the carnage Mr Jemmerling could have performed with such a mounting on Pterodactly.....
posted via 31.48.73.116 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43764 - 10/08/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: BBC News Website
Good to see a report on the BBC News Website about AR and that it is publicising a future event, but...
shame there's a very basic mistake in it!


posted via 95.149.55.185 user MTD.
message 43763 - 10/08/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?
While a Rampart is a strong possibility for the Pterodactyl, I feel that the cruisers being built in the Firth of Clyde by Silvers (the name which I couldn't remember) may be more likely. This is because they are 'local' to the Hebrides. I agree that Millers were the builders at St. Monans.
posted via 120.148.68.224 user David.
message 43762 - 10/07/17
From: Mark Walker, subject: Re: Re-reading 'the twelve' after a decade-long gap
+2 for Patrick O'Brien's Aubrey/Maturin series. Best ever. For adults.

I like to re-read after a gap of several years, for this does ideed bring forgotten details to light.

Others, like the Aubrey/Maturin 'dad jokes' one does not forget. "In the Navy one must always take the lesser of two weevils"; and the Bosun's cat, "the only name for which can be Scourge".

As memorable at least as "Better drowned than Duffers" but with the added benefit of being both clever AND funny!
posted via 121.217.27.42 user Buzzook.


message 43761 - 10/07/17
From: Mark Walker, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?
Local Kiwi member, Garry Wood, speculated in 'Furthest South' May 2014 that 'Pterodactyl' might have been a Rampart 45 built by George Desty's Southampton-based Rampart Boat Building Works.
He cites an exteant example, 'Rania', one of the Dunkirk Little Ships, that looks a lot like the sketch of Pterodactyl. Google it.
The St Monans boatbuilder may have been JW Millers?
posted via 121.217.27.42 user Buzzook.
message 43760 - 10/07/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?
You are right on the money there, Adam. There was a boatbuilder in the Firth of Clyde (in Rothesay, I think) who built large numbers of this kind of small ship to excellent quality, and many of them are still around and treasured. My memory fails to bring up the name of the company. The principal designer was one John Bain. Similarly, I have forgotten the name of the builder in St, Monans, Fife, but I do remember that they were mostly famous for their double-ended fishing trawlers. The only drawback was that they were iron-fastened, which was fine for the expected life of 20-odd years. However, some of them are now reaching their century, and are having to be refastened. Nothing wrong witht the larch from which they were built, though.
posted via 120.148.68.224 user David.
message 43759 - 10/06/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?
I envisage something like this which dates from 1932 and still operates off the west of Scotland.

[ Image ]

posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43758 - 10/06/17
From: Paul, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?
A very brief glance through the 1950 edition of Lloyd's register of Yachts shows Peter Duck, Racundra and Selina King, but no Nancy Blackett (nor a Pterodactyl!). It obviously calls for further research.

Re a boat to accommodate a library, have you thought of one of the Dutch barge conversions? I visited one a couple of years back which was crammed with books! There are several on the Thames near Old Windsor and Runnymede, and occasionally one comes on the market. There are also some craft that appear on e-bay. Good luck.
posted via 86.156.48.17 user Paul_Crisp.


message 43757 - 10/06/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: Swallows and amazon.com
It made me smile when the rest of the paper seemed filled with fairly depressing news about a massacre and a party conference.
posted via 86.156.48.17 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43756 - 10/05/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Swallows and amazon.com
I'd forgotten about that! Thanks Allan.

I'm still with Peter on this topic, as he says "There have been much wittier pastiches of Ransome..." and Victoria Wood is certainly one of them!
posted via 2.29.97.249 user MTD.


message 43755 - 10/05/17
From: Allan_Lang, subject: Re: Swallows and amazon.com
Titty says that there will be a YouTube video that explains it

There is indeed

posted via 101.178.163.19 user Allan_Lang.
message 43754 - 10/05/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Who was Pterodactyl?
I'm in the middle of finding a boat to live aboard when I sell my house next spring: a powerboat, to serve as tender to my 19' sloop and as home for me, including my library.

In that context, it's proving to be quite a search to find a boat adequate for even the 80 linear feet of my pared-down library.

That got me to thinking about the notorious Pterodactyl, and AR's illustration titled, "In the cabin of the Pterodactyl," and how big the Pterodactyl must have been to provide the space in which that scene takes place. Especially since that appears to be an athwartships cabin, and boats of that era were typically far narrower than boats of today. She must have been quite a good sized yacht! Does anyone know if AR modeled Pterodactyl on a specific vessel, or --if that information isn't available-- have any access to contemporary yacht registers that might offer a likely candidate? All speculation is welcome.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43753 - 10/04/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Swallows and amazon.com
Surely we can take comfort from the thought that when the leader writer wanted to refer to a children's adventure classic that his readers would relate to, he chose SA.

posted via 88.110.90.188 user Mike_Jones.
message 43752 - 10/03/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Swallows and amazon.com
A different view - I found the Times spoof leaden and humourless. E.g. John has never pitched a tent before, so Titty says that there will be a YouTube video that explains it. Oh hilarious! There have been much wittier pastiches of Ransome in recent years, some on Tarboard.
posted via 81.129.95.180 user Peter_H.
message 43751 - 10/03/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Swallows and amazon.com
This is the title of the Third Leader in yesterday's Times in response to the Springwatch team wanting "outdoorsy tales" for today's children. Some beautiful lines such as "I ordered this tent last night from Amazon," said Able Seaman Titty who was thinking of changing her name to Kitty.... Meanwhile John was getting jittery, "Thing is, I've never pitched a tent before."...."Don't worry," said Titty, "there'll be a YouTube video that explains how to do it."

If you haven't read it try to get a copy or go on line; it's worth the effort.
posted via 86.151.254.141 user Paul_Crisp.


message 43750 - 10/01/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: 2016 S&A film offer
As mentioned before, I'm going to view it (if I ever can) as another story made up by our S&A characters sitting around the campfire. I'm sure their imaginations could have created this just like they came up with Peter Duck or Missee Lee.
posted via 184.151.36.14 user rlcossar.
message 43749 - 10/01/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: 2016 S&A film offer
You have my sympathy, Ed. Seeing it in the cinema with an excited grandson, I could see how it worked for him and enjoyed it as an action film. Viewing it at home on DVD, my reactions were like yours: a travesty. And poor Mrs Blackett!
posted via 88.110.64.51 user Mike_Jones.
message 43748 - 10/01/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: 2016 S&A film offer
You have my sympathy, Ed. Seeing it in the cinema with an excited grandson, I could see how it worked for him and enjoyed it as an action film. Viewing it at home on DVD, my reactions were like yours: a travesty. And poor Mrs Blackett!
posted via 88.110.64.51 user Mike_Jones.
message 43747 - 10/01/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: 2016 S&A film offer
Saw AMAZON.COM (USA) offering the new SWALLOWS AND AMAZONS, so I ordered it. I watched it all the way through, but do not think I want to make that mistake again.

For BBC movies, being an American, I need English Subtitles. The Potter series had that, and it was a big help to SEE what those kids were saying. Adults come through ok for the most part, but young people just don't project the words so I can get them. Lord of the Rings had English Subtitles that were a big help there also. But this S/A had FRENCH, no English subtitles. The old two seemed to talk ok, but the younger two had a problem with me hearing their words.

As for the PLOT, it had so very little to do with what I read as a child and had come to LOVE. The older two are TOO OLD. Not much difference apparent between the ages of Susan and her Mother. So much was added that just was not in the book, and even those moments similar to the book were so distorted from what I expected.

Only two visited the Charcoal Burners, and that was to get fire. Like the book, Mother had to remind them to take the matches, which (not in the book) they lost overboard with their food. John throwing a rock at the houseboat, and getting yelled at by its occupant. In the "war" don't think they looked anywhere but in the Beckfoot boathouse. No digging on Cormorant Island to find the stolen chest. And that "secret harbour" is a pitiful jury rigged resulting from sticking a few rocks upright off some shore. No real HARBOUR with protection from winds. Nothing like the Peel Island southern end which has come to be believed as the Real Secret Harbour. Anything else is just not right. The usage of that title is a gross misleading heading. A brief scene where someone is studying MORSE code, a tool that never came up again, unused, and not in the book. Where did THAT come from? Why put that in?

It was very disappointing. To appease my anger, I dug out my 1974 VCR tape and thoroughly enjoyed that version where my only serious complaint was NO STORM to blow down the tents. Those kids were of realistic ages. The Amazons looked reasonable, not made up Halloween monsters.

This new DVD? Back into the box, to the back of the top shelf, where hopefully it will be forgotten. So little of the real story is there, and that is what I was looking for.

John holding a revolver to some guy's face - Not the JOHN that I grew up with as my childhood playmate, and a good friend for the rest of my life.

Shy can't that story be properly put into a movie without totally screwing it up?

Waste of good money.

Thanks for letting me VENT...

Ed Kiser, Kentucky USA
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43746 - 09/25/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
Having been connected with various schools I found that pupils brought in "dinner Money" (these days paid on-line!), looked forward to "lunch time", or brought "packed lunches". They accepted both terms, but on outings the invariable question - usually on arrival - was "When is it lunch time?"



posted via 81.151.141.31 user Paul_Crisp.


message 43745 - 09/24/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
As usual I'm coming late to this discussion.
I was brought up in the 60s in the west of England and we always had breakfast, dinner, tea and (sometimes) supper.
Dinner referred to the main cooked meal of the day. For instance we always spoke of "school dinners" and never "school lunches".
When we came home it was to "tea", a meal of bread and butter, jam and cake. On occasions it might become high tea with a hot dish, perhaps smoked haddock
For us supper was only a hot drink, often cocoa, and a biscuit.
posted via 2.102.116.46 user MartinH.
message 43744 - 09/22/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: The next generation
Hmm, where did the link go. Let's try again!

www.sailransome.org

posted via 81.156.115.105 user Magnus.
message 43743 - 09/21/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: The next generation
MarkK and Andy, it sounds like you might want to sail 'Swallow' whilst you are visiting the Lake District in 2018! See link below.

I was very careful for many years, not forcing my kids into a boat or a tent. I was too paranoid they would hate it if I insisted. So I just took it easy. I think one has come round to my way of thinking, but not the other...
posted via 81.156.115.105 user Magnus.


message 43742 - 09/20/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
Peter... I am GLAD that others using e-books can now have the pleasure I have enjoyed these many years by having access to Machine-Readable TXT files of the Ransome Twelve. My collection has been the source of many a search. And as for those requests from Tarboard to look up "[high tea]" or whatever, I was glad to do so, and found the results very educational for myself as well.

My TXT files were created well before E-books became all that available. They were the result of determination and the pleasure of re-living my childhood adventures with my childhood friends. Typing them in, I got to see EVERY punctuation mark, every BRITISH spelling that my American spell checker would protest about, and get to see EVERY passage, some of which I felt were somehow previously skimmed over, and delightfully finally to add them to my reading experiences, yet amazed to find that I had not remembered ever seeing that piece before. It was a labour of love (my American spell checker just threw up on "labour") that continues to bring to bring me great pleasure and enhances that wonderful Ransome experience.

I have learned much from his Twelve, and am grateful he put it all together. And I am grateful to my Tarboard "friends" that have enhanced those experiences for me. That gratitude is also to Tony Richards for his sharing his camera and its photo collection showing the land that Ransome wrote about, giving me the REAL view of the place my childhood friends took me to, to share with them the beauties of those locations otherwise so foreign to me. That photo collection is now over 24 THOUSAND pictures that have provided me with hours of slide shows to vicariously return me to that land of my childhood imagination.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]


posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43741 - 09/20/17
From: MarkD, subject: Re: The next generation
Excellent advice - my cherry-on-top modification will be to add an iPad liberally loaded with Peppa Pig and her ilk.

posted via 185.125.226.2 user MarkD.
message 43740 - 09/20/17
From: MarkD, subject: Re: The next generation
Thank you...really hope it works for you all. If it does, will you post the results on here?
posted via 185.125.226.2 user MarkD.
message 43739 - 09/20/17
From: MarkD, subject: Re: The next generation
Made me laugh, thank you!

Yes, the idea has to be to fire the little ones' imaginations...I don't think it really matters where and how we manage it, or how "authentic" the experience is...just as long as it's real enough in their heads.

posted via 185.125.226.2 user MarkD.


message 43738 - 09/20/17
From: MarkD, subject: Re: The next generation
I think you've nailed our fears here. Everywhere I go in the UK seems to be an overcrowded and oversanitised space where the main concern is to sell you a hugely overpriced and disappointing sandwich in plastic wrap, washed down with a lukewarm disposable cup of dishwater with a tacky souvenir to take home with your fudge. No camping, no fires, please keep off the grass.

Nevertheless, we will visit the Lakes in the coming weeks and see if there's a way of making it work in this country. In parallel my wife and I agreed last night to rent a lakeside cabin with boat for a couple of weeks in Sweden next summer. Just working out the logistics of getting everyone there now. If the holiday works as a proxy for a "proper" lakeside S&A break I'll post my findings up on here. The idea is to find somewhere remote enough that the kids can eventually camp nearby the cabin without annoying anyone, with a lake big enough to sail on.
posted via 185.125.226.2 user MarkD.


message 43737 - 09/20/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: The next generation
Well Mark, an interesting question.

My thoughts (for what they are worth as a non-parent, never sailed, never camped but lifelong AR reader) is I agree with your wife, and not just because one of semi-obsessive interests other than AR is most things Scandinavian!

From what I have seen the Norway and Sweden options will give you and your children a more 'real' experience of the S&A world. Why?

As regular readers here know I live in the area of Secret Water, which though not mentioned in the book includes the Naze. Recently the local council in conjunction with the Essex Wildlife Trust have built a 'visitor's centre' so turning a natural headland in to a glorified theme park. It's supposed to be an educational centre for the school parties that visit mainly for fossil hunting on the beaches, but of course it is no more than a cafe and gift shop.

I have not visited the Lake District since childhood, but get the impression from TV documentaries that the natural landscape is more and more viewed as a place where famous writers spent there time and were inspired - Wordsworth, Potter etc and thanks to the recent film AR is not far behind. So there are lots of ‘helpful’ places to visit and signs everywhere to satisfy visitors.

When AR wrote the SA series he often had digs at the encroachment of visitors, and these days (as at the Naze) they are being accommodated at the expense of what made the landscape inspiring in the first place. I do wonder what he would make of the area now?
posted via 95.145.229.152 user MTD.


message 43736 - 09/19/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: The next generation

Three cheers for you, MarkD! I have no kids, want no kids (though haven't minded occasionally filling the role of Captain Flint), and I'm in the US anyway, so I doubt I have any worthwhile advice for you, but I'm pleased to read what you're trying for.

FWIW, I had S&A read aloud to me at age five, my first summer on a small island off the coast of Maine, where I would eventually spend the rest of my summers until I was 26. I then devoured the rest of the series on my own (I was a precocious bookworm), was taught to sail in a small boat (though I didn't solo until I was 10), and set out on a career of piracy and exploration. That included arming myself with a wooden cutlass (a toilet float cut in half makes an excellent guard) and burying sea-glass and beach-combed treasure every year in big tea tins --note: pacing off compass bearings is brilliant, but the length of a child's pace changes dramatically from one year to the next, so don't bury anything you'd be heartbroken not to recover. Post SW, it also involved a couple years of running compass bearings around the entire island --surprisingly, NOAA's charts are actually pretty accurate. My father still feels the best gift he ever got me was a 9' rowboat, when I was 9. I sailed from the English Channel to the China Seas in that dinghy, all without crossing outside the two-fathom line around the Island.

When I went to live with my mother, in the mountains of California, I promptly got in trouble when I chipped big holes in one of her favorite landscape boulders while prospecting for gold. I also got a lesson in safe bouldering after an adventure searching for cragfast sheep --you never knew; there might have been one up there!-- almost went badly. (As an adult, I eventually went on to instruct technical rock climbing and mountaineering.)

My point is that once the S&A match was lit, with the right encouragement and with the right landscape it was a self-sustaining combustion, and ignited my imagination in whatever environment I found myself. Make your kids the offer to enjoy it, and then enjoy it with them, and I expect things will go very well.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43735 - 09/19/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Class and language in the books

I'm not sure if this is interesting, but it's there on Wiki:

"As late as 1945, Emily Post wrote in the magazine Etiquette that luncheon is "generally given by and for women, but it is not unusual, especially in summer places or in town on Saturday or Sunday, to include an equal number of men" – hence the mildly disparaging phrase, "the ladies who lunch". Lunch was a ladies' light meal; when the Prince of Wales stopped to eat a dainty luncheon with lady friends, he was laughed at for this effeminacy."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunch

Which may be why the S&A characters intuit that "lunch" is a meal taken with natives.

That webpage has all sorts of interesting and potentially applicable "social etymology" of meals.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43734 - 09/19/17
From: Andy, subject: Re: The next generation
I'm 54, and demolished The Twelve from an early age, re-reading them many times during my childhood. The books, however, never clicked with my brother or sister: I'm not sure why.

I was lucky enough to grow up not far from the Lakes and - luckier still - learned to sail while at school. Subsequently I did a pile of dinghy sailing during my twenties and thirties, but had to stop and sell up (I just had no time) when my two boys were very young: they, as a result, have had no experience in small boats.

Without any pressure I'd hoped, perhaps through some form of psycho-osmosis :) that they'd pick up the Ransomes at a young age, but they didn't, and I didn't want to push it. They've camped (and loved it), they've heard my sailing yarns often enough, and they're clearly aware of my groaning shelves of regularly-read Ransome-related literature - so I have a plan: my last chance to quietly enthuse them!

Next year is Dad-Gets-The-Wayfarer-Year, and following some Scottish Loch sailing to weed out any dufferishness (we live in the Central Belt) my plan is for a week's camping and sailing in the Lakes. I'm certain they'll amuse me, the old 'un, with traipsing around the Ransome landscape and maybe - just maybe - get bitten by the outdoors and what it has to offer. My secret weapon in this is my stepdaughter's son, 'then aged seven'. He and I have talked long and hard about things, and we've both decided a future of piracy and skullduggery on the high seas is really all we want out of life. Now, if there's a chance my boys as young adults can see the world through their nephew's eyes (and I think it's a good chance, stuck in a couple of tents together) all is not lost!

Mark, with regards to your post, the only practical advice I can give is this: I took my eldest son camping when he was just twelve weeks old. In Belgium. We survived. A few years later, camping on one of the coldest, wettest nights I've ever witnessed, and concerned that the kids (then about eight and four) would a/ hate it, or b/ drown in the tent, both boys said they loved every minute and 'when can we come again?'

posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.


message 43733 - 09/19/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: The next generation
Rule 1 for this journey, unless your children are very good travellers: keep as far as possible to Motorways and Roman Roads. My young son seemed to be sick at every bend on traditional roads.
Rule 2 is to keep them occupied. Word games like I Spy, and singing. You could try teaching them Shanties, but any songs you know. Best of all, ones that can be extended indefinitely like "Old Macdonald had a farm". And in your case, Norwegian folk songs.
Don't even think of having a quiet time in the front with the children in the back.
posted via 107.167.112.145 user awhakim.
message 43732 - 09/19/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
A few examples from my own experience.
I visited my nephew in Cumbria a couple of weeks ago (in the Eden Valley, real AR country) and we were given Tea: Roast Lamb and all the trimmings, with wine. And this is very usual in the North - and probably Scotland. (Followers of I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue on the BBC will know that the Scottish word-charades always start with "You'll have had your tea.")
Exactly the same rules in Australia in my experience. Tea is a major meal, the last of the day, except possibly a light snack last thing. It can even have guests like a dinner party. Though at AusTARS meetings they provide magnificent Teas - sandwiches and cake, probably enough to live on for the rest of the day.
Growing up in Wales in the 1940s, Tea and High Tea were two distinct meals. Tea was Bread and butter (more likely margarine), jam and cake if we were lucky, and of course tea. High Tea had all that plus something solid like a poached egg to make it into a full meal. At home, Lunch was at midday, and Dinner was an evening meal for grown-ups.
When I was called up into the Army, we were firmly told that Dinner was at midday, Tea was late afternoon after work, and I assume evening Dinner only happened in the Officers' Mess.
On a related theme, not in the S&A books, I have found that if I am asked "Would you like a drink?", in the South it's something like a G&T, but in the North it's a cup of tea. Takes a little getting used to.
posted via 107.167.112.145 user awhakim.
message 43731 - 09/19/17
From: MarkD, subject: The next generation
I’m now about to hit 40, and have very small children. My interests are largely outdoors – camping, foraging, cooking, shooting, fishing, sailing (plus rugby and cricket!). I was chatting to my younger brother earlier this year about why we turned out the way we did, and got onto the subject of AR’s books. It really hit me then that the AR books I’d loved as a child had had a very profound effect on my life. I’d been trying to emulate much of what I’d read about, not just for myself but as a preparation to creating the same experience for my own future children, because it seemed like the “right” thing to do.

Now that my eldest is three it suddenly occurred to me that whatever I was subconsciously preparing for has arrived, and I now just need to make it happen for them! I’ve re-read the 12 and found the old magic still there, and now I’m about to buy a small boat, and try to persuade my dad to trade down his own largely unused modern yacht for something smaller and hopefully more traditional.

We’ve joined TARS and are now planning our first recce up to the Lakes to see what can be achieved. My wife is Norwegian and grew up camping and holidaying in basic family log cabins on a private island and in the mountains, and the usual arguments on family sailing holidays. She thinks that we’re better off hiring waterside summer cabins complete with boats in Sweden or just wild camping in Norway (and is dead set on just hiring boats in the UK instead of owning).

Has anyone tried this journey with kids in the UK? Any advice on what worked for you, or tips of things to do while the kids are still very small? I appreciate it’s a broad topic, but it’s a wonderful journey and I can’t wait to take my kids on it...and then grit my teeth, cross my fingers and turn my back and let them go and do it on their own…!


posted via 185.125.226.2 user MarkD.


message 43730 - 09/19/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
That's brilliant work, Magnus and Adam, using e-books, but I can't help feeling slightly sad that the search 'monopoly' possessed for many years by Ed Kiser is no more. Very-long-time Tarboard users may recall, many years ago, those oft-used and immortal words:

"Perhaps, Ed, you could do a search for '[high tea]' and prove I am right?"*

*copyright 'Arthur Random' 2003.

posted via 81.129.127.205 user Peter_H.


message 43729 - 09/19/17
From: MarkD, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
Great bit of work! Looks like he was quite consistent, lunch for native midday meals and dinner for others. It's a very strange distinction to make though...any thoughts on why?

posted via 185.125.226.2 user MarkD.
message 43728 - 09/19/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
I checked and could only find one instance of a lunch being mentioned during an adventure. In Coot Club, when Tom Dudgeon wants to delay lunch until they are underway after passing under a bridge.
Two others are aboard the Goblin in We Didn't Mean to Go to Sea, when they are cleaning up and when Daddy invited Mother and Bridget to luncheon after their return. So adults involved in all three cases.

All the others are definitely native meals or referring to native meals.

SA
And we wanted to be allies at once, if only we hadn't promised to be home for lunch.

If we'd only known we'd have given you broadside for broadside till one of us sank, even if it had made us late for lunch.

SD
Mother's taking the great-aunt out to lunch, so we needn't be in till tea.

Those two pirates were twenty minutes late for lunch yesterday.

They won't be back till lunch-time. (GA & Mrs Blackett)

"We've got to be back to lunch," said Peggy.

But Captain Flint kept reminding them that they had to be back for
lunch, and they were only looking round as quick as they could before racing down again to the Amazon and setting sail for home.

PP
Pull down the swinging bit, and push the slide across till lunch-time next day.

I'll just see what Cook wants. And you'd better have lunch before going.

How are you getting on, Dick? What about the pigeon-bell? Lunch in another half-hour.

Dick, his work done, went into lunch with a very happy smile.

After a lunch that was not dry bread after all, during which Mrs.
Blackett told them just what shops to go to and what to get

He met Mrs. Blackett in the hall. "Hullo, Dick," she said. "You're just in time for lunch.

CC
She had taken them to lunch at an inn where everybody was talking about boats at the top of his voice.

The twins were in at lunch-time, and they seemed to think he (Baby) was theirs.

Tom would not wait for lunch. (Aboard the Teasel)

BS
"We've got to have lunch with the Admiral if we're not going anywhere."

Towards one o'clock they went home to Mrs. Barrable's for lunch and in the afternoon Dick and Dorothea borrowed the bloodhound and came back to Scotland Yard to wait for the return of the detectives.

"I'll telephone to Mr. Farland. You come home for lunch, Tom, and I'll tell you then if you can see him or not.

"We'd better begin lunch," said his mother and began to mix a salad.

Dick had bought a bottle red ink on the way back after lunch, meaning to mark with a cross the place where the shackles were found as soon as the photographs had dried.

The others were watching the door and wondering why Tom was so long over his lunch.

WD
Five hours later John, Susan and Jim Brading were resting in the cockpit of the Goblin after a hard morning's work and a luncheon of bread and cheese and ginger beer.

"We've a grand spread nearly ready in the cabin, and the owner and the skipper and the crew and the passengers want you and Bridget to honour them by lunching aboard.

PM
I've told her it would be as well if she made a practice of resting after luncheon.

They were very early, and for fear luncheon might not have begun at Beckfoot, they worked their way round through the wood till they came down on the road well beyond the house, crossed it after careful scouting, and were presently looking down from the ridge on Beckfoot.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43727 - 09/19/17
From: MarkD, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
That's a very useful bit of work Magnus.

I'd like to put "lunch" in the search engine to see how often it is used and by whom, and referring to a native or explorer meal. It would be even more instructive to do this with Ransome works not from the 12, to observe his own usage.

It might sound like I'm a bit obsessive on this point, but it is probably the one thing that jars every time I read the books and I'm curious whether it was deliberate or just unconscious usage by the author. As Andy noted, the usage of “dinner” for the midday meal would probably have been commonplace for Cumbria and Leeds, and the North generally but not for the South or in RP which I'd guess (possibly erroneously) most of the children would have tended towards.
posted via 185.125.226.2 user MarkD.


message 43726 - 09/18/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
The power of the ebook search facility has revealed to me...

SECRET WATER - CHAPTER I

And then, when they had come back for high tea at Miss Powell’s they learnt that something had happened that had made Daddy at least feel quite different. Tea was over before he came in smiling to himself.

THE BIG SIX - CHAPTER XX

Mrs. Barrable gave them a high tea so that the Death and Glories had no need to worry about supper. They told her some of what they were doing but not all, and she did not ask questions.

THE BIG SIX - CHAPTER XXII

They made a leisurely round of the busier parts of the village and then, sure that everybody would know that they had left the Death and Glory, went slowly back to the Doctor’s house where they found high tea nearly ready for them.

posted via 81.156.115.105 user Magnus.


message 43725 - 09/18/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
Equally not necessarily relevant to the books:

I grew up in suburban Washington D.C., my parents were from the midwest. We had breakfast, lunch, and supper. On Sundays we had breakfast, dinner, and supper of some sort. No tea or any sort of fourth meal (and no second breakfasts either).
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43724 - 09/18/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: 2016 S&A film offer
With another perspective, the less money it is, the more chance of people seeing it.

I still have not had a chance to watch the 2016 version here in Canada

posted via 184.151.36.234 user rlcossar.


message 43723 - 09/18/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Class and language in the books

I don't know if this is relevant to the situation in the books, but where I grew up --Maine and Massachusetts, so very much New England-- "dinner" was the biggest meal of the day, whenever it was held. If it was held at midday, the subsequent lighter meal in the evening would be "supper". If dinner was held at the end of the day, the preceeding, lighter midday meal would be "lunch".

Overhearing a conversation with a colleague who was himself from Texas, and of a similar age as me, this distinction was also the case there --much to the bemusement of the (much younger) student with which he was conversing.

Sadly, while I grew up drinking tea throughout the day, we never had "tea" as a meal. I always envied the S&A characters that cultural advantage.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43722 - 09/18/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
Hilaire Belloc confuses the matter further with the dying words of Henry King:

"Oh my friends, be warned by me,
That breakfast, dinner, lunch and tea
Are all the human frame requires...."
posted via 92.18.212.120 user Mike_Jones.


message 43721 - 09/18/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
I agree - the map is very interesting, though possibly a little too generalised. Here are some observations noted during this year. Staying in Wester Ross in the last couple of weeks I heard High Tea used, with the implication that dinner was only for the tourists. The same when staying with some relatives of my wife near Newcastle. Supper is used in London and certainly in the Home Counties for a late meal, as in supper after the theatre. It's dinner in mid-Devonshire (not the tourist part); at least, that's my experience!
posted via 86.153.140.190 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43720 - 09/18/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
I am fairly sure that the expression "high tea" does not occur in the books - I doubt if Susan would know what it was.

I agree- I can't remember "High tea" appearing anywhere in the books. But I think Susan would have known what it was. My upbringing was strictly middle class, and immediately after the war, so in the '40s, I knew what "high tea" was, although in my family, we had "tea" and "supper".
posted via 90.252.96.169 user PeterC.


message 43719 - 09/18/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
The map is interesting. However, the description "tea" is more complex than that. I come from a Lancashire family and I recall that there was a big difference between "tea" and "high tea". "Tea" means just that - a cup of tea at about 4.00 pm with maybe a cake or scone. "High tea" was taken at about 6.00 pm and consisted of something cooked - e.g. sausages or kippers, with bread and butter. Once again, tea, i.e. the drink, was served. I am fairly sure that the expression "high tea" does not occur in the books - I doubt if Susan would know what it was. The explorers' evening meal was probably a cross between high tea and supper, and it was a moveable feast anyway (literally).
posted via 81.129.127.205 user Peter_H.
message 43718 - 09/18/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
People have tried to track this sort of North/South language divide before. Here's one example, although it comes from modern usage, not the 1930s...


posted via 81.156.115.105 user Magnus.


message 43717 - 09/17/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: 2016 S&A film offer
It wasn't long after its release on DVD etc that copies appeared on e-bay!
posted via 95.150.76.26 user MTD.
message 43716 - 09/16/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: 2016 S&A film offer
And, sadly, on Wednesday I saw the 1974 film on offer for a penny less!

posted via 86.153.139.247 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43715 - 09/16/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: 2016 S&A film offer
In my branch of Sainsbury's this morning, the 2016 S&A film DVD was on offer for £3.00. They say that everything finds its correct price level in the end.
posted via 81.129.127.205 user Peter_H.
message 43714 - 09/15/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
I think they use both terms lunch and dinner for a midday meal. However, when they are referring to a "native" indoor meal it tends to be lunch and when it is an outdoor camping or sailing meal, it is dinner.

Not sure about tea as there are too many references to the beverage rather than the meal.

As for referring to Mrs Braithwaite as Cook, I think that this is just referring to her by her job rather than her name, just as Nurse is never named, though I am not sure she was ever spoken to as "Nurse" either. Similarly, the doctor in the North is always referred to as just "the doctor", again I don't think his name is ever mentioned but I can see it being perfectly normal to say Hallo, Doctor" to him without it being impolite.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43713 - 09/15/17
From: Andy, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
Breakfast, dinner, tea, supper - for me, born in Cumbria in the 60s. My mum, from darn sarth, took a few years to get used to this order. She'd grown up with breakfast, lunch, dinner, supper.

Andy

posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.


message 43712 - 09/15/17
From: Andy, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
Breakfast, dinner, tea, supper - for me, born in Cumbria in the 60s. My mum, from darn sarth, took a few years to get used to this order. She'd grown up with breakfast, lunch, dinner, supper.

Andy

posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.


message 43711 - 09/15/17
From: MarkD, subject: Class and language in the books
Hi, not sure if this has been covered before, but I was re-reading the books after joining tars and one thing that struck me was some of the language used by the children - "dinner" instead of "lunch", "tea" instead of "dinner", "Cook" instead of "Mrs Braithwaite" for example. All of these aren't terms I'd expect people of that social class from the South of England to use these days. Was it different back then, or does it e.g. just reflect Ransome's own usage (i.e. Northern usage for meal names)?

posted via 185.125.226.21 user MarkD.
message 43710 - 09/13/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
It was motor traffic breaking up the surface of the old water-bound roads that led to the authorities tarring them all.

That sort of thing still goes on, even with a loose AR connection.
In Siberia one winter, around the end of the Soviet Union, we found that in a steelworks town they would dump hot slag from the steelworks on the icy roads in town, in huge explosions of steam, which would melt and re-freeze to create a kind of abrasive ice-bound surface which people could drive on as though it was a dry road.
In the spring it would melt, and the acidic slag would drain into the river and kill all the fish.
Nobody cared, except the local fishermen, and nobody cared much about them. Anyway they had lakes to fish in, which we were told were full of PCBs.
I don't suppose that AR would have come across these apparently eternal Russian attitudes when he was there. Far too much happening...
posted via 90.252.96.169 user PeterC.


message 43709 - 09/12/17
From: andy clayton, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
It was motor traffic breaking up the surface of the old water-bound roads that led to the authorities tarring them all. The oil based tar held the surface intact against the suction effect of the swiftly moving rubber tyres. Carts with iron tyres hadn't damaged the roads in that way.

posted via 147.147.232.39 user cousin_jack.
message 43708 - 09/11/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
Not quite that bad! It was traffic in his fishing areas of the North-West. He was very much against Tarmac, which drained off into the rivers and poisoned the fish. You will remember in PP that cars left a trail of dust on the road behind them.
posted via 107.167.112.144 user awhakim.
message 43707 - 09/11/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
Of course! The campcraft illustrates it perfectly. Mate Susan never asks for firelighters in book 1 (they only need matches) and in WH everyone scorns the Ds for needing newspaper.

So the fire-lighting must have been taught for a while before S&A.
posted via 81.156.115.105 user Magnus.


message 43706 - 09/10/17
From: Dazvid Bamford, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
Golly, Alan, if The Man objected to London's treaffic in the Twenties, what would he make of it now? Especially, I believe, (not having tried it myself) the M25.
posted via 120.148.68.224 user David.
message 43705 - 09/10/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
Mr Toad's caravan was what was known at the time as a Gypsy Caravan, a very romantic item. Certainly some years ago, one could hire one to tour around Ireland; I don't know if that's still possible. Of course, you have to handle the horse too. Almost nothing in common with the basic motor-car-hauled caravan we are discussing.
And Owen, if you look in your copy of Fair Cops and Glowworms you'll find AR objecting quite fiercely to motor traffic in the 1920s.
posted via 107.167.113.35 user awhakim.
message 43704 - 09/10/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: Treasure Island
Well, there's "Barbecued Billygoats!" That seems to crop up from time to time.

The only two other places I could think of, in SD and SW, didn't refer to barbecues though ("Great Aunt Steak", and the Human Sacrifice). Given Mother's Australian background, "Corroboree" seems to have been the term in favour for the event.
posted via 73.173.62.89 user Jon.


message 43703 - 09/09/17
From: Dan Lind, subject: Treasure Island
We know that AR read TI, and believe PD was influenced by it. In
TI, Long John Silver was called Barbeque by his shipmates.

Did AR include any reference to BBQs in The Twelve? There is, of course, much mention of campfires and cooking, but BBQs?

Just wondered. (I haven't The Twelve at hand,)


posted via 70.78.126.205 user captain.


message 43702 - 09/09/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
In the story, "WIND IN THE WILLOWS", Mr.Toad enjoyed (for a while) his horse drawn CARAVAN, until he saw a motor car. His interests had to move up with the new technology.

Wonder when the idea of putting an enclosure on a wagon got started...

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43701 - 09/08/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
That's a really good question.

As I see it, unless they had done a fair bit of camping in previous holidays, with a considerable share of the campsite "chores" carried by the children so that they had been observed being competant at campcraft, I would expect the idea of camping on the island would never even have been considered. Mother would have squashed it pretty quickly, perhaps offering them a camp at Darien as an alternative --sort of like the Beckfoot camp in PP.

I expect Mike's right with the "best knife ever" enthusiasm --which is also a pretty good quirk for AR to have picked up on and inserted into the story.
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43700 - 09/07/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
I have seen the occasional photo of pre-war caravans here in Australia, but they looked, and probably were, very home-made. Using an axle and 28-inch artillery wheels sourced from a derelict car, they were anything but elegant or stylish. I doubt that we had any commercial production of caravans until the 1950s. My parents hired a 'Carapark' van in 1957 for a holiday. It was very basic, a rectangular box with rounded edges and corners, clad in aluminium. That was an early commercially-built van.
posted via 120.148.68.224 user David.
message 43699 - 09/07/17
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
Alan is quite correct. Motor caravanning started in the 1920’s and was starting to burgeon in the 1930’s. Of course, horse drawn gypsy type caravans has been about many years before.
The attached mockumentary film clip shows what was possible in 1932, about the time SD was written.

I think caravan/camping sites in the Lake District were an anathema to AR.

posted via 51.6.241.95 user OwenRoberts.
message 43698 - 09/07/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
Caravanning must have existed in the Thirties, though they were much more basic than modern ones. Think the kind of caravan that is now used at shows to accommodate the announcer. (Not sure this is true in Australia, David.)
I am sure of this, since I was given a Dinky Toy caravan before the war. It would never have gone into production unless caravans were fairly well-known.
posted via 107.167.113.134 user awhakim.
message 43697 - 09/05/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
Mary Walker was bought up on a sheep station (SA18) and had a nanny (SD2). The owner of a sheep station would be part of the "squattocracy".

It recalls Neville Shute’s 1955 novel “Requiem for a Wren” in which the Wren thinks that it will be a comedown to marry an Australian “farmer”, thinking of farmers as "peasants". The Australian (who is killed in the war) went to a private grammar school and Oxford University, and comes from a large sheep station (though I can’t recall if he was the heir to the sheep empire).

posted via 202.154.144.56 user hugo.
message 43696 - 09/05/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
Caravanning had to wait until well after the end of the WW II, when more people could afford cars. Like telephones, personal cars were quite scarce in Britain in the Thirties. There is no suggestion in the books that the Walkers owned a car, although if they could afford a nanny they would be able to afford a car. But moving two adults, five children and a nanny would require a small bus!
David
posted via 120.148.68.224 user David.
message 43695 - 09/05/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
I suppose we are meant to assume they have done 'outdoorsy' things in all their previous school holidays (including sailing at Falmouth) so they have stayed in a few wild spots before, maybe in borrowed tents?

Good point! Susan must have learnt how to build fires and fireplaces somewhere. Still, that might have been on family day trips or picnics, with no real camping involved. Was caravanning common in that time? My family did tent-camp on the Chester River (MD) for day sailing when my littlest sister was 2 or 3, but I rather doubt (especially pre-disposable-diapers) anyone in their right mind would take non-potty-trained infants camping for pleasure. So that would seem to rule out the two years before SA, unless the older Swallows went with their father.

As to the canvas, it's described as "light" canvas, so I've always thought of it as closer to muslin.
posted via 73.173.62.89 user Jon.


message 43694 - 09/05/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
Good point (about Mother), but then there a plenty of hints about her childhood in Australia not being that of a typical middle-class navy wife!
posted via 95.149.130.35 user MTD.
message 43693 - 09/05/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
Good observation!

I suppose we are meant to assume they have done 'outdoorsy' things in all their previous school holidays (including sailing at Falmouth) so they have stayed in a few wild spots before, maybe in borrowed tents?

But Mike is right: often a child's first penknife is "the best knife ever" and so on.

This has made me think about Mother, and her middle class-ness. Would an officer's wife, with a nanny and farmers wife to look after her, be prepared to sew a tent? I can imagine her doing some fine needlework, but canvas is tough stuff, and it is hard work to get a needle through!
posted via 81.156.115.105 user Magnus.


message 43692 - 09/04/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
Good question, from the books how they had spent previous holidays is vague.

To answer with some seriousness, Susan's comment is quite common in children as to what is the 'best', it is more a statement they cannot imagine ever experiencing anything better.
posted via 95.149.130.35 user MTD.


message 43691 - 09/04/17
From: Jon, subject: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
. . . of Swallowdale (Titty made the obvious exception of Wildcat Island).
Aside from Wildcat Island and the beach at Horseshoe Cove, where else had they camped? Mother had to make the tents used in SA, and they used rugs/blankets for sleeping then; the tents and sleeping bags are clearly new for SD. Counting the Peak of Darien seems a bit of a stretch, since they hadn't actually put up a tent there.

posted via 73.173.62.89 user Jon.
message 43690 - 09/04/17
From: Andrew Craig-Bennett, subject: BELLS - a clock
I have an American ship's clock - a Chelsea - which was still afloat in 1956 as it has a San Francisco chronometer repairer's sticker on the underside - which strikes ship's bells - apart from the dog watches, which are not curtailed. It seems every American ship, both warship and merchant ship - that was built for WW2 had one, and some of them had electric repeaters so the bells could be heard throughout the accomodation.

posted via 109.158.45.180 user Methersgate.
message 43689 - 08/30/17
From: Peter Wagner, subject: Re: Ships Bells Program
Can you not put it on Dropbox and post a link to download it?
posted via 94.250.228.202 user PeterW.
message 43688 - 08/29/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Ships Bells Program

Ah. Shows about how savvy I am, hm?

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43687 - 08/28/17
From: John, subject: Re: Ships Bells Program
Sorry: I mean a website location so it can be downloaded. GIT would be a bit beyond our members.
posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.
message 43686 - 08/27/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Ships Bells Program

I use a Mac, otherwise I'd offer.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43685 - 08/24/17
From: John, subject: Ships Bells Program
Dear all:

I need a spot where I can put the program so it can be tried as it is developed. It will be an exe file able to run on Windows.

I do not have such a spot.
John
posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.


message 43684 - 08/23/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Service -- so really simple -- question is what do you want it to do exactly
A service application is designed to be long-running, so it usually polls or monitors something in the system. The monitoring is set up in the OnStart method. However, OnStart doesn’t actually do the monitoring. The OnStart method must return to the operating system after the service's operation has begun. It must not loop forever or block. To set up a simple polling mechanism, you can use the System.Timers.Timer component as follows: In the OnStart method, set parameters on the component, and then set the Enabled property to true. The timer raises events in your code periodically, at which time your service could do its monitoring. You can use the following code to do this:
posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.
message 43683 - 08/23/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Clarification: Re: BELLS
I have a clock programme running.

What do we want it to do?

posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.


message 43682 - 08/23/17
From: John, subject: Re: Clarification: Re: BELLS
It should not be that hard to write a ships bells program in C#.
Run as a service, check time every 30 minutes and then wait for the exact point and sound a bell or two.

posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.
message 43681 - 08/23/17
From: Harry Miller, subject: Re: Trip to the UK
Have a great trip Mike and let John know his "Lulu" stories are well remembered by me and no doubt many others.
posted via 70.55.216.36 user dreadnaught.
message 43680 - 08/21/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: BELLS
Yes, I like rereading books too, particularly the “Lake” books in the series . An article on the Australian Barry Humphries said that as a child he was upset when his mother gave away all his books to a charity: “But you’ve read them all, Barry!” The article thought that Barry’s snobbish character Dame Edna Everidge was partly based on his mother.
posted via 203.96.129.149 user hugo.
message 43679 - 08/20/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Trip to the UK
Bon, voyage to both of you! Val and I wish you all the very best of weather, accommodation, food and drink. Have a great trip!
David
posted via 120.148.68.224 user David.
message 43678 - 08/20/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Hullabaloos
In 2012 in a Glasgow B&B we were told that the rules about no food or drink in the rooms did not apply to retired married couples like us who were having sandwiches and wine; the rule was aimed at stag parties. We may have seen rules about “no fish and chips” in rooms too as the aroma is quite penetrating and lingering (so can also be banned backstage). Two notices in English B&Bs warned that if the toilet was blocked there was a £50 or so plumbers callout charge , so dispose of sanitary pads elsewhere!


posted via 203.96.129.149 user hugo.


message 43677 - 08/20/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Trip to the UK
Well, Jenn's and my second trip to the UK starts tomorrow. This one's for two months, instead of the three last time when we toured a lot of Europe as well. We're starting with a week on a hired 'Margoletta' on the Norfolk Broads, then having a short cruise around Secret Water before staying with my SOS mate John in Essex. (With a bit of luck we'll get to see 'Goblin' on the way round, too.)

Then across for a tour of Oxford with friends we met in Canada (or was it China? -- can't remember) a few years back, and who studied at Oxford and know it well. And along the way there'll be a brief visit to Elsfield Manor, the erstwhile baronial seat of John Buchan. Then on to Glasgow for some family research on Jenn's side, before a cruise of the whole of the Western Isles, starting at Stornoway and ending at Barra Head. Then we finish with Scotland with another shorter cruise to see Iona and Staffa (and of course Fingal's Cave).

Then boat to Dublin as a stopping-off point to see most of Ireland by back roads (including some family research on my side). Then back to London briefly before heading off for a back-roads tour of Cornwall -- and catching up with an old mate JohnR (of 'Lulu' fame) in Falmouth.

Finally home via Bangkok to see ex-pat mate Bruce and his lovely Thai wife Meow, before back to (we hope) a considerably-warmer Canberra.

Should be fun. :)
posted via 124.171.218.243 user mikefield.


message 43676 - 08/20/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: BELLS
My wife is the same (about re-reading, once she's read a book that's it), I did get her to read S&A which she liked (and does have an understanding about my obsession!)
posted via 95.145.229.141 user MTD.
message 43675 - 08/19/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: BELLS
My wife does not understand why I would ever want to read any book more than once. I believe the last time she read any book was when it was an assignment in school. I have tried to get her into reading any of the Ransome series, but no go.

However, she did hear my computer ringing those bells, and asked what that was all about, so I explained the concept of the bells and the names of the "watches". A few days later, I had overslept (permitted when retired), and she woke me by saying, "It is 3 bells of the fore-noon watch, and you are still in the bed." She must have gotten the idea right. What a pleasant surprise, nice way to wake up, too. Now when she asks me the time, I give it in bells time, and she just nods her head in understanding. Finally, she has learned something from Ransome. She likes the clanging of the bells on my computer, says it is like having a grandfather clock in the hall clanging out the time, just in a different style.

However, if friends are visiting, and she or I say something about the time using bell notation, we do get funny looks from the visitor.

It is like talking in CODE, but one that is not really a secret.

But we seem to enjoy doing the bell talk to each other, as a
"togetherness" thing. No harm in that...

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43674 - 08/19/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Hullabaloos
True John, but part of the current problem is heavy drinking, loud music and lewd behaviour all of which is having the same effect on locals as the Hullabaloos did and AR was drawing attention to.

As Roger Wardale pointed out in 'Arthur Ransome on the Broads' such visitors from the towns and cities may have been good for the local economy, Ransome was pointing out the problems they were creating (p. 58)

It seems what is happening today is a very similar situation.
posted via 95.146.63.167 user MTD.


message 43673 - 08/18/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Hullabaloos
The Hullabaloos are a mixed group (three men and two women) but going by the scene on the staithe with the Death and Glories and Mrs Barrable there is some sexual tension or rivalry; and as Mrs Barrable says they start making bets as to whether they can find Tom!
posted via 203.96.129.149 user hugo.
message 43672 - 08/18/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Clarification: Re: BELLS
And here's silly old me thinking a telephone was just for making phone calls.... :)>
posted via 124.171.218.243 user mikefield.
message 43671 - 08/18/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Clarification: Re: BELLS

Hope everything goes well.

No, this app is a dud. The bells don't even have a good tone. I'll have to wait for ship's bells until I bring the chiming clock in from the boat for the winter. I'm going cruising for a few days tomorrow, though, so I'll enjoy them then.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43670 - 08/18/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Clarification: Re: BELLS
Great, thanks very much. I'll check this out a bit later today. Have to admit I would not recommend this app to anybody.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43669 - 08/18/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Clarification: Re: BELLS

DRAT! The html coding removed a bunch of words from my post. Sorry for the pseudo double post, but here's what my last one should have looked like:

MacHD > Library > Ship's Clock --I think. Now that it's in the trash I can't remember if it was an independant folder within Library, or if I had to go into another folder within Library, like Componants, to find it. It was pretty obvious, though.

MacHD > Library > PreferencePanes will let you get rid of the actual control panel, rather than just hiding it via the System Preferences.

There's also a file titled "org.sonofagun.shipsclockd.plist" in the Preferences folder, if you want to be really tidy. I *think* that's in the master Library, but it might be in the User Profile Library.

Remember that there are a couple different Library folders: one within your User Profile, and then the master Library under the MacHD icon. You want the latter to dig out the Ship's Clock app itself. (I always get stumped by this detail.)


posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43668 - 08/18/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Clarification: Re: BELLS

MacHD > Library > Ship's Clock --I think. Now that it's in the trash I can't remember if it was an independant folder within , or if I had to go into another folder within , like , to find it.

MacHD > Library > PreferencePanes will let you get rid of the actual control panel, rather than just hiding it via the System Preferences.

Remember that there are a couple different folders: one within your user profile, and then the master under the MacHD icon. You want the latter. (I always get stumped by this detail.)

How the deuce would AR have gotten anything written if he'd needed to mess with a computer? I sometimes consider going back to a fountain pen!

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43667 - 08/18/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Clarification: Re: BELLS
Where did you find it? I've been unable to locate the thing anywhere and it looks as though it's the MacOS equivalent of a daemon - which gets us into complicated stuff.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43666 - 08/18/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Clarification: Re: BELLS

Never mind: Found the app itself and dumped it.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43665 - 08/17/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Clarification: Re: BELLS

No luck here, either: it installed, and worked for a few hours, but then it stopped bothering to chime unless I asked for a "test" (possible on the 10.11 control panel). But it didn't then resume chiming by the clock.

Thank you, Dave, for telling me how to remove it from the Preferences pane. I wish I knew where the app itself was, to remove it from the computer.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43664 - 08/17/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Clarification: Re: BELLS
Well...it turns out it does install correctly but not as an app, rather as a sort of system service. And the only place it appears is in the System Preferences pane at the very bottom (that's where the controls for it are). But it is running and it marks the time correctly.

However there's no way I could find of turning it off. So getting rid of it was more of a challenge - I had to use an option in its control panel to remove it from the System Preferences pane, and then rebooted the system. At least it did remove although it didn't call it that - I was afraid something more complicated was in my future.

So yes, there's a Mac Ships Clock that works under MacOS Sierra 10.12.6 but controls are minimal and inobvious, as is removing it.

Apologies for stuffing all that in a TarBoard post but I wanted to be clear about what to do if you decide to try it.

posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43663 - 08/17/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: BELLS
It doesn't install correctly on MacOS 10.12.6 either. More specifically, it appears to install correctly and claims a successful installation, but once done you cannot find the application anywhere.

posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43662 - 08/16/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: BELLS

Thanks Jon. I've installed it, and will report back on how well it works. It's a pretty old app, so there's no telling how well it'll play with my OS10.11.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43661 - 08/16/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: BELLS
The Mac version is here. More info about the various versions is here. However, the Forum has a report about it failing to install correctly on MacOS 10.5.8. The report is several years old, and hasn't been responded to. All links will open in (one) new tab/window.
posted via 71.81.246.204 user Jon.
message 43660 - 08/16/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: BELLS
Looking into it. A friend who is quite nautical has such an app on his iPhone for sure and I'm going to get that link as well.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43659 - 08/15/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: BELLS

Does anyone know if there's a Ship's Bells app for Mac computers? I couldn't find one specifically for that in their App Store, but I may not be searching correctly.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43658 - 08/15/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: BELLS
Off-topic, I know, but when I got my current PC I insisted on buying a USB plug-in floppy disk drive, which I can now use with any computer.

I haven't used it yet.... :)
posted via 121.45.192.118 user mikefield.


message 43657 - 08/15/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Hullabaloos
... and I've just been reading Wardale's 'Ransome on the Broads', in which he says a boat full of trippers was cast of at Yarmouth in 2012.
posted via 121.45.192.118 user mikefield.
message 43656 - 08/15/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: BELLS

"OTOH, it rather reminds me of a former colleague, whose ring tone for his wife was "General Quarters"."

I just choked on my tea.

Thank you, Jon. I needed some laughter today.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43655 - 08/15/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: BELLS
Yes, there's one for Android; it's mentioned on the Ship's Clock home page. I don't see mention of the iPhone app there, however.

OTOH, it rather reminds me of a former colleague, whose ring tone for his wife was "General Quarters".
posted via 71.81.246.204 user Jon.


message 43654 - 08/15/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: BELLS
A two-edged sword for your family and friends, but you can also get a Ships Bell app for the iPhone (and presumably for Android as well). Perhaps we should put links on ATR for those?
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43653 - 08/14/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Hullabaloos
From a report in the UK Sunday Times last week end it seems all those things that AR was aiming his criticism of in his portrayal of the Hullabaloos in CC is once again a problem on the Norfolk Broads.

The report (I can't provide a link as you have to be an ST subscriber)told how cabin cruiser hirings by hen and stag parties are causing problems with the excessive drinking and extreme lewd behaviour.

I have memories of this being a problem in the 1970s, and then most hire companies refused to hire boats to all male or female groups, it seems now the lure of more income or fear of accusations of discrimination have meant companies once more allow them - and the trouble they cause!
posted via 95.150.14.189 user MTD.


message 43652 - 08/14/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: BELLS
Nothing to do with Bells (or AR really) but good to read you are still on XP Ed, same here (and very occasionally the A: drive), perhaps it is something to with those of us that have been involved with computers from the pre-PC days (that is PC as in IBM - I don't mean 'political correctness' or 'Intercontinental Ballistic Missile')

So there is an AR connection, a kind of nostalgia for different times when people seem to understand how and why things were done in a certain way. Or am I just getting old?
posted via 95.150.14.189 user MTD.


message 43651 - 08/14/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: BELLS
You can also open the ShipsClock folder on your menu and run ShipsClockConfig, which will let you start/stop the service, set the desired volume and set a "quiet" period if you don't want it going off at all hours (and half hours) of the day and night. According to the notes on SourceForge, the current version (the .msi installer package) runs on all versions of Windows up to 7.0.
posted via 71.81.246.204 user Jon.
message 43650 - 08/14/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: BELLS
It'll install under Windows 10 (I'm on the Creator's Update) if you right-click on the installer package and choose "Troubleshoot compatibility". Then you will need to either restart your computer or start Task Manager and go to the "Services" tab where you can start "Ships Clock". If it'll run on 10, it should run on earlier Windows versions using the same basic approach (run the installer in "Compatibility Mode"). I'll give it a go on Win 7 when I get the chance (busy editing two videos, one a time-lapse).
posted via 71.81.246.204 user Jon.
message 43649 - 08/14/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: BELLS
Welcome to The Anachronisms Club, Ed.

I too ran that ship's bell program under XP, but I haven't tried to load it with my current OS Win 7, so I can't tell you whether it still works or not.
posted via 121.45.192.118 user mikefield.


message 43648 - 08/14/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: BELLS

SHIP'S TIME

The concept of using BELLS to announce the time probably originated
with the Swallows's Father, who was an officer in the Royal Navy.

---------- SACH30.TXT
"Four bells of the middle watch," said Captain John, who had
looked at the chronometer with his pocket torch and had just
put it into ship's time for himself.

"What is it in real time?" asked Peggy.

"Two o'clock in the morning," said Captain John. After all,
there were some things these Amazons did not know.

[In the later stories of the series, it seems that Nancy had
become familiar with the concept of telling time with bells.]


---------- SDCH33.TXT
We'll bring our own rations. This is just in case you might
all be exploring if you didn't know we were coming. Expect
us about eight bells of the forenoon watch (John knows
when).

[Part of a note from Swallows's Mother, who seemed quite comfortable
with the concept of bells telling time.]

---------- SDCH17.TXT
Nancy threw the core of her apple into the camp fire and asked
Captain John to look at his chronometer, it was already past
eight bells, and it was clear that even if Captain Nancy and Mate
Peggy ran the whole way home, they had not the smallest chance
of being back for tea.


Nancy's cheerful voice changed suddenly. "The great-aunt
won't be saying how good we are if we're a minute late for
supper. Come on, Peggy. What's the time, John?"

John looked at his watch, but did not put the time into bells.
It was far too serious for that.

"All three meals," said Peggy.

"We've fairly done it this time," said Nancy. "Come on.


---------- PDCH36.TXT
away round to the north-west, and at eight bells, when Titty, and

---------- PDCH18.TXT
But Captain Flint was up again at seven bells, and so were all the

---------- PDCH22.TXT
"Three bells," he said to himself, and then, as Bill looked up from his

---------- PDCH34.TXT
When Nancy struck eight bells, one two, one two, one two, one two,


---------- GNCH1.TXT
"Two bells! Five o'clock. Tea!" called Nancy, almost as if she wanted

---------- GNCH8.TXT
"Four bells," said John, rubbing his eyes. "I thought we were starting

The morning passed. Roger sounded eight bells for noon.


---------- MLCH1.TXT
Nancy'll take over at eight bells. They'd better be getting some sleep

----------------------------------------------------

On the Internet at:

http://www.allthingsransome.net

is offerings of several items of software, one of which is "SHIP'S BELLS"
that makes the computer announce the time on the hour and half hour be
the ringing of a bell tone.

There are several applications offered at that site that have been made
available some time ago. Operating systems have progressed to where
sometimes the older apps will not be accepted by the newer Windows, saying
that "The application is not compatible with the Operating System". As
for me personally, I still use Windows XP, and that is old enough to
be able to run easily the offerings of ATR website. The XP system is no
longer "supported" but for me, it is the one that still works, and runs
the stuff I want to run. I would have rephrased that error message to say
that "The Operating System is no longer compatible with your application."

Perhaps the growth of technology creates such questions as to "where can I
play my 78 RPM records?" Or where to play my 8-track tapes, or even my
tape cassettes or my VHS home videos (such players are becoming rather rare).

My XP computer still has the A: drive (diskette), which can let me
boot a DOS DISKETTE, where I truly feel comfortable with understanding how
to do the things I want to do. I keep several back up copies of that boot
disk, because after all, that is over 30 years old, an anachronism.

But then, at my age, perhaps I am just an anachronism of a bygone age.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43647 - 08/12/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: S&A 2016 film in New Zealand plus trailer
Have seen the 2016 S&A film which was quite good; there was some clapping at the end. Set in Summer 1935, and Ted (Daddy) was in Hong Kong. Titty is Tatty and Susan (but not Tatty) wears shorts.

More arguing between John and Susan than there were in the book, and John calls Roger a duffer twice (which he never does in the book). Roger did manage to lose John’s knife and to fall overboard from Swallow! And would Susan lose a hamper of food overboard when going to the island? The Swallows have binoculars not a telescope.

Introducing the Russian spies who are after Jim enables the film to star a vintage motorcycle sidecar combo and a seaplane, plus a chase along the roof of the steam train carriages! Rio must have had a production of The Mikado on, going by all the Japanese costumes in a procession.

posted via 203.96.139.112 user hugo.


message 43646 - 08/11/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Charcoal-burning to make fireworks to damage houseboat roofs
An interesting history of the manufacture of gunpowder, starting with a drawing of charcoal-burners' mounds. (That's the AR connection....)
posted via 121.45.192.118 user mikefield.
message 43645 - 08/10/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: S&A dustjacket change?
That was quite radical back then!
posted via 95.150.197.139 user MTD.
message 43644 - 08/10/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: S&A dustjacket change?
Cape did in the merest understated way 'promote' the first film on their hardback edition of S & A. I have a 1982 edition and on the dust jacket under ARTHUR RANSOME is printed 'now filmed by Richard Pilbrow'
posted via 86.151.254.248 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43643 - 08/10/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: S&A dustjacket change? - Correction
Apologies, I didn't dig far enough. The book icon in the Kindle library is indeed (now) a picture from the new film. But when you actually load the book, the cover page is the familiar dust jacket (with "80th Anniversary Edition") on the cover.

So the icon is probably just Amazon/Kindle and the publishers themselves may not know anything about it. Possibly an advertising stunt on somebody's part.

It's still irritating; all the rest of the canon are shown with icons of the dust jackets. I hope they will revert S&A to the original icon.

The credit for the digital publication is "RHCP Digital".
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43642 - 08/09/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: S&A dustjacket change?
Its unusual for hardbacks to be used in a promotional way when there is a film or television adaptation (I have no 'inside' knowledge on this, just observation over the years.)

It does seem that Cape have stuck with the original dustwrapper designs, despite all the changes made to the paperback ones.
posted via 95.149.130.44 user MTD.


message 43641 - 08/09/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: S&A dustjacket change?
I went into Foyles bookshop on Waterloo station last summer, when the film came out, to see if they had any promotion going. At first I thought there was none. Then I realised the table beside me had a large pile of new paperbacks, with the cover carrying the picture from the film poster.
I haven't seen any hardback updated like that, but I haven't been looking lately.
posted via 82.145.210.242 user awhakim.
message 43640 - 08/09/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Railway to Rio
For those of you who are reading Pigeon Post this summer and have wondered about the railway journey to Rio, this month's Steam Days magazine has an article about the branch from Oxenholme to Windermere, illustrated with period photographs including pre-1923. After noticing the cover, I looked through a copy at my village newsagents and was impressed - I might even buy a copy!
posted via 86.151.254.248 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43639 - 08/07/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: S&A 2016 film in New Zealand plus trailer
Judging by Ed's comments here regarding that film, it sounds like it's "Lucky you" as well....
posted via 121.45.192.118 user mikefield.
message 43638 - 08/07/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: "burghers of Carlisle"
OOPS - how did that other stuff get in there.

Let's try that poem reference again:

http://www.bartleby.com/41/570.html

There. Now try that. sorry for the momentary confusion.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43637 - 08/07/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: "burghers of Carlisle"
http://www.gocomics.com/forbetterorforworsehttp://www.bartleby.com/41/570.html
SWALLOWDALE QUOTE:
'And the red glare on Skiddaw roused the burghers of Carlisle'

The above reference has the poem whose last line is quoted in Swallowdale. This poem here was references as being much more difficult than the one Captain Flint suggested they "learn" for the GA, especially since they already knew it: "CASABIANCA". The use of warning beacon files on mountain tops was also seen in LORD OF THE RINGS.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43636 - 08/07/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: S&A dustjacket change?
I just went to Amazon.co.uk and searched for "Swallows and Amazons" under "Books"; nothing printed that came up used the 2016 movie picture that showed on the Kindle listing. There were several different images that turned up, and none were the classic Cape image sets. Interestingly, one, a 1993 hardback, showed a photo from the '70s movie as the cover, and two DVDs, both ostensibly 2016 releases, showed the two different movies. The Jonathan Cape site was no help at all. The audio recording of SA had a cover in the style of the classic Cape covers, but with totally different and unrelated pictures (assorted etchings of marine and avian wildlife, and a sidewheeler strongly resembling the SS Savannah of 1819!).
posted via 71.81.246.204 user Jon.
message 43635 - 08/07/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: S&A dustjacket change?
The TWELVE are a set. There is reason to feature a certain style of dust cover on each book that claims it is a member of that set. For SA to come up with a movie commercial violates this membership concept. The "SUSAN and JOHN" on that movie are more in loco parentis than the elder siblings of Titty and Roger, and are definitely not the ones i grew up with and have been close friends with for the rest of my life. The result is repulsive and makes me glad I have the three sets of the older style collection, including one set with the art work of those first editions.

As for reading on the Kindle, I sent the TXT files I typed to that device to carry them with me. No movie commercial there.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]

posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43634 - 08/07/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: S&A dustjacket change?
A few years ago I acquired all of the SA books as Kindle editions while visiting the U.K. The entries in the Kindle library are of course the familiar dust jackets -- or were. Not so long ago I noticed that the first volume, S&A itself, no longer had the familiar dust jacket; the file had been updated to now have a picture from the 2016 movie. I'm not thrilled -- regardless of the merits or lack thereof of the film, I liked the original dust jacket and rather resent this.

But now I wonder if the printed hardcover has this changed dust jacket? I strongly suspect at least paperback edition in the U.K. does but PB editions don't usually use the dust jacket of the hardbound book as a cover.

posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43633 - 08/07/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: S&A 2016 film in New Zealand plus trailer
Lucky you! It still has not made it to Canada
posted via 184.151.37.159 user rlcossar.
message 43632 - 08/04/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Re-reading 'the twelve' after a decade-long gap
I remember 'The Log From The Sea Of Cortez' as being a thoroughly good read -- although, like you, it must be thirty years or more since I read it. I think it was in that book that there was a wonderful account of why you wouldn't try sailing a cat-boat anywhere, because you'd only ever go downwind until you fetched up on a lee shore and had to be towed off....
posted via 121.45.192.118 user mikefield.
message 43631 - 08/04/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Re-reading 'the twelve' after a decade-long gap
May I join your 'Occasional Bibliophiles' group, please? I have a number of books which I haven't read for many years, The Twelve among them. There are the Complete Sherlock Holmes, for example, and many books of poetry. My current read is John Steinbeck's 'Log of the Sea of Cortez, which I am re-reading after some thirty or more years, and I can't remember any of it. Yes, I would say that 'resting' books increases my enjoyment of them. At this rate I have enough to keep me going until I 'finish my innings' (so to speak).
David
posted via 120.148.68.224 user David.
message 43630 - 08/04/17
From: John Wilson, subject: S&A 2016 film in New Zealand plus trailer
The 2016 film is on at the current New Zealanfd International Film Festival, and the website has a trailer for the film on it.

posted via 203.96.137.78 user hugo.
message 43629 - 08/03/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Food and drink in Swallows and Amazons
This link is of course for amazon.co.uk. The book is available on amazon.com in the U.S. (and there's a cross-link on the upper right of the page on amazon.co.uk if you're in the U.S.), In the U.S. it's $2.99 (or free with Kindle Unlimited -- which is only free for 30 days).
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43628 - 08/03/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Food and drink in Swallows and Amazons
Thanks Magnus
posted via 2.31.100.178 user MTD.
message 43627 - 08/03/17
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Food and drink in Swallows and Amazons
Thanks for providing the link. I haven't attempted anything as controversial as the recipe for bunloaf - that's over my pay grade.

posted via 86.173.173.117 user RobinSelby.
message 43626 - 08/03/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Food and drink in Swallows and Amazons
I found the link.

This book had better get the bunloaf recipe right, or there will be trouble.... (wink)

posted via 31.51.234.7 user Magnus.
message 43625 - 08/02/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Food and drink in Swallows and Amazons
Interesting Robin - could we have a link?
posted via 2.31.100.178 user MTD.
message 43624 - 08/02/17
From: Robin Selby, subject: Food and drink in Swallows and Amazons
Ransome devotees may be interested to know that I have published an article on Kindle called ‘Food and drink in Swallows and Amazons’. It answers vexed questions such as how much corned beef did the explorers consume during the series, and looks at the way in which Ransome used meals to structure the books. Awards are given for Best Meal and Best Breakfast. The text is supported by detailed statistical appendices. I trust that Dick would approve of them.

Robin Selby

posted via 86.181.147.102 user RobinSelby.


message 43623 - 08/02/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Re-reading 'the twelve' after a decade-long gap
Nothing weird about this. I was given all 12 in JC hardback starting with WH in 1948, when I was four. WD was given to me when. I was six, and it is fair to assume that a lot of the early gifts were read to me! They have been prominent on my shelves ever since
posted via 88.110.81.179 user Mike_Jones.
message 43622 - 08/01/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Re-reading 'the twelve' after a decade-long gap
A complete weirdo? Not at all!

I devoured the books in my childhood (and as I have explained here a few times lived an alternative childhood through them as an escape from the real world.)

As an adult I always had a complete set of the 12, a mixture of the hardbacks from childhood and paperbacks of the ones I had not got. I have to admit I didn't read them much but they were there on the shelf.

Then in my mid-thirties when the Brogan biography was published I became a mature student at the University of Essex where he lectured and I met him - well, sought him out (as I have explained before) which motivated me to return to the books.

In the last ten or so years I've gone to the other extreme (I can thank the Internet and the discovery of TarBoard), I have multiple sets of the 12, I have re-read them numerous times and read as many of the books about them and AR I have been able to get hold of.

Why? As an older adult I appreciate them on two levels, just for the pleasure of reading them and then reading them to discern AR's methods and motivations as an almost academic process.

What I find most interesting is that every time I read them for whatever reason I discover something new, something I had not noticed before, so even though I know the plots this does not detract at all from the re-read.

It's a curious thing, only yesterday a book blog I follow had a post about 'comfort' reading, and my response was of course AR's 12.
posted via 95.149.130.2 user MTD.


message 43621 - 08/01/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Re-reading 'the twelve' after a decade-long gap
Every once in a while (as in a few years) I get an urge to read some of them. I try to pick different ones as I won't get through all 12 each time I decide to read any of the. Right now I'm introducing an elderly friend to them and he is reading them as e-books. He likes the ones with more adult themes like WDMTGTS.

I have my set in a very prominent spot in my home and acknowledge them regularily
posted via 184.151.37.236 user rlcossar.


message 43620 - 08/01/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Re-reading 'the twelve' after a decade-long gap
After a decade of so of going without, I, too, felt it was time to re-read the Ransome tales and renew my childhood friendships with those people. I was amazed how quickly I was able to finish a book, just several hours. It was not re-reading, it was scanning and turning pages, reminding me of what was happening without going into detail. This led me to an alternative procedure: TYPE the stories to a computer .TXT file. It forced me to avoid skimming, but to look at every word, every punctuation mark, note any spelling difference from my American spell checker and the British style of Ransome (ignored up to then). It also got me to notice some errors in the books. This time, I came across parts that I did not remember, that perhaps on previous readings I had just skipped over the descriptions and got onto the actions. There was "newness" in this project that made it a delightful adventure of discovery, much to my pleasure. It also provided me with a computer readable source to search for words or phrases to enhance my relationship with these childhood friends. It was a grand adventure, well worth the efforts, presenting me with a renewal of those adventures that continue to be dear to me even after all these years.

Now I am motivated to re-read, not the books, but my typing, as I am looking for typo errors, which somehow managed to escape notice on previous re-readings. At least this medium avoids wear on the books themselves, some being rather fragile with age. Looking for these errors of my own making helps me to want to look closely, with avoiding the scanning that had previously diluted my revisits to the books.

It is a labour of LOVE that continues to return joyous bounty. I feel I know these people, knowing them as dear friends, continuing to bring me the delights of being "with" them, regardless of my true age.

I am grateful to Ransome for having given me so much pleasure, for having taught me so much without me having to feel I had to learn something, for letting me enjoy the sailing my own with my children on board, for bringing signalling to my attention for me to learn, and then to teach, not only my friends, but my children, and now my grandchildren. My reward was for a grandson to send me a birthday note, consisting of a printout of just dots and dashes. The proof of the pudding is in the eating thereof, and he ate it well.

And my thanks to the Ransome internet community for enhancing my understanding and appreciation of the wonders of these stories. and providing photographic peeks into the land he wrote about, a place I will never get to go, but with the pictures giving me a vicarious visit.
Total so far from Tony Richards Lakeland Camera is 23 GIG of photos.
Not that Ransome's word descriptions needed any further enhancements, but those photos do help make it all so real.

So my THANKS to Arthur, and to You All.

The adventure continues...

Ed Kiser, Kentucky USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43619 - 08/01/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Re-reading 'the twelve' after a decade-long gap
If you are a complete weirdo, then I am quite similar. While my books did not sit completely unopened on the shelves as I occasionally took them down to check some reference or passage, I did not read them completely through for many years until this spring.

I am now re-reading my Patrick O'Brian's which have also been sitting closed for a number of years awaiting a propitious time for another passage. Again, I keep noticing little things which I have either forgotten or never picked up on previous voyages.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43618 - 08/01/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Re-reading 'the twelve' after a decade-long gap
I agree totally with Magnus about the pitfalls of repeated reading of the 12. What I would recommend is to create a 10-year cycle and read one book each year, with two occasionally. I've been doing this for 30 years now and the stories always seem fresh, to the extent that I often can't remember what happens next. (This is also one of the very few advantages of old age.)
posted via 81.129.95.99 user Peter_H.
message 43617 - 08/01/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re-reading 'the twelve' after a decade-long gap
Most of you Tarboarders enjoy re-reading Ransome's S&A books over and over, I am sure. I had to stop doing it though, as I got to a point where every word became too familiar, and I was longing for the deeper enjoyment which comes from reading a book with fresh eyes.

I have a good memory for book plots/details and song lyrics (sadly my brain disregards more useful everyday knowledge) and so there was never any surprise. I really felt my pleasure was being dulled by over-reading.

So I took a break. A ten year break!

I knew that nothing less was going to have any affect on my memory. Hopefully time apart from the books would allow me to later re-read with fresher eyes, and properly enjoy something I loved. It is upsetting when you love something, but cannot truly enjoy doing it. Nothing can conjure up that magic of the first ever reading, of course, but this is about as good as I'm going to get.

I've remained totally Ransome-obsessed, of course. I've still been reading books about Ransome's life, and trying new titles from the Mariner's Library he helped set up. But I found my decade-of-holding-back gave me plenty of time to try new authors too, and there have been some pleasant surprises (and many other books cast aside in disgust!).

I honestly don't feel I have missed out on anything. The green hardbacks have been there on the shelf the whole time, giving me comfort without even needing to be opened!

So do tell me:
1) Am I a complete weirdo?
2) Could you ever take such a break?
3) Do you predict success or failure?
4) Will any place/time suffice, or must I find the perfect moment and the perfect location to heighten my pleasure?
5) Binge on them all quickly, or spread out over a number of years?
posted via 31.51.234.7 user Magnus.


message 43616 - 07/29/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: TARS Literary Weekend
Alan,
Ironically, I read your posting about twenty minutes after my late-night (11.30 pm) return from the final recce for the Literary Weekend up in Edinburgh. Whether or not others have read what you had written and were stirred into action, but suddenly we've taken three more bookings since last night; people might not be posting on Tarboard, but they are reacting to messages such as yours! See you in Edinburgh,

Paul

posted via 81.151.141.22 user Paul_Crisp.


message 43615 - 07/28/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: TARS Literary Weekend
No I won't be going ( the only event I crossed the ocean for was the 10th AGM) though I'm sure it would be interesting. I'm currently introducing S&A to an older friend who is reading books voraciously in his late years and we have two copies as prizes for an upcoming family day at our yacht club

posted via 184.151.37.235 user rlcossar.
message 43614 - 07/28/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: TARS Literary Weekend
TarBoard has always (or at least it seems that way) to exhibit periods, sometimes long ones, of apparent dormancy. Only to wake up when somebody posts something that provokes comments. I once spent a few months keeping track of the lulls between posting spurts (several years ago) and they lasted up to 2-3 weeks on occasion.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43613 - 07/28/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: TARS Literary Weekend
Man: I have been in Italy and the internet here is like way slow.

I am still alive, wish I had more time.

Rob are you in the Lake District at the moment -- thinking of visiting from italy for a day or so and would not mind catching up

John
posted via 137.204.150.33 user Mcneacail.


message 43612 - 07/27/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: TARS Literary Weekend
Well, there's your answer, Alan....
posted via 124.171.131.251 user mikefield.
message 43611 - 07/27/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: TARS Literary Weekend
Is Tarboard dead? Nothing for over a week. Over on the Arthur Ransome Facebook pages, people are asking whether members are going to the weekend in Edinburgh (Sept 1-3). So I thought I would ask here, by way of a test for signs of life.
posted via 82.145.210.244 user awhakim.
message 43610 - 07/17/17
From: Mike Jones , subject: Country Life Magazine 12 July
A pleasant article about a sail on the Nancy Blackett with background on AR and a piece about Sophie Neville.

Interestingly, there is a still from the 1974 movie and a note on how to obtain it on DVD, but no mention of last year's film
posted via 82.132.227.140 user Mike_Jones.


message 43609 - 07/17/17
From: Mike Jones , subject: Country Life Magazine 12 July
A pleasant article about a sail on the Nancy Blackett with background on AR and a piece about Sophie Neville.

Interestingly, there is a still from the 1974 movie and a note on how to obtain it on DVD, but no mention of last year's film
posted via 82.132.227.140 user Mike_Jones.


message 43608 - 07/15/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: The Explorers
Yes, I noted that one too, Ross, and had the same thought. Then I wondered if perhaps there was enough greenery close to the bridge to screen the explorers properly. But I do agree that it's a pretty likely candidate for the prototype.
posted via 124.171.131.251 user mikefield.
message 43607 - 07/15/17
From: Ross, subject: The Explorers
There is a photo on todays Lakeland Cam that reminded me immediately of the illustration from Swallowdale. Its a low stone bridge that Titty and Roger likely went under to avoid crossing the road.
posted via 184.151.36.131 user rlcossar.
message 43606 - 07/14/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Canada's 150th Anniversary
Did AR ever visit North or South America? I'm not sure he ever did.

Not even to sit on a hill above Pernambuco, talking with Arthur Gnosspelius about copper mining in the Lakes? How sad...
posted via 90.255.61.166 user PeterC.


message 43605 - 07/14/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: World Hetitage site.
if they're inaccessible/impenetrable, how do they kow that they're worth designating?

Like the rest of us; they look at it on Google.

posted via 90.255.61.166 user PeterC.


message 43604 - 07/14/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Canada's 150th Anniversary
No Yukon. Closest you get is Alaska mentioned in both WH and PP.

Did AR ever visit North or South America? I'm not sure he ever did.
posted via 31.51.234.7 user Magnus.


message 43603 - 07/13/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Canada's 150th Anniversary

Wasn't there mention of the Yukon in WH? Or perhaps PP? Though maybe that was in reference to what's now Alaska. Can't recall; may be imagining it anyway.

Ed, are you around to run a search?

Alex
posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43602 - 07/12/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: World Hetitage site.
Inaccessible Island, near Tristan da Cunha in the South Atlantic, was so named when it was first discovered and it was found to be impossible to climb the high cliffs and get access to the interior. Since then people have managed to get up them and found the smallest non-flying bird the Inaccessible Island rail.

I suspect Inpenetrable Forest in Uganda was found to be hard to penetrate. Its now one of the major gorilla refuges.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43601 - 07/11/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: World Hetitage site.
If in Scotland - obvious answer
if in Wales -- see if it has been mined

posted via 137.204.150.12 user Mcneacail.
message 43600 - 07/10/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: World Hetitage site.
There are quite a few 'tracts of countryside' on the UK part of the World Heritage List.

I didn't know until I saw that list that there's an Inaccessible Island.

I did know that there's a Bwindi Impenetrable National Park in Uganda.

I'm tempted to ask, if they're inaccessible/impenetrable, how do they kow that they're worth designating?
posted via 109.180.191.50 user eclrh.


message 43599 - 07/10/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: World Hetitage site.
It is not a tract of countryside it is the only tract of countryside worth anything.
posted via 137.204.150.35 user Mcneacail.
message 43598 - 07/09/17
From: Jock, subject: Re: World Hetitage site.
There are quite a few 'tracts of countryside' on the UK part of the World Heritage List.
posted via 178.43.134.194 user Jock.
message 43597 - 07/09/17
From: Owen Roberts, subject: World Hetitage site.
UNESCO awards the "Lake District" World Heritage site status.
I wonder how much the influence of AR and other authors have contributed to this award?
In the UK, awards have been made to mines, bridges, stone and brick artefacts - rare for tract of countryside to be included.
posted via 51.6.241.58 user OwenRoberts.
message 43596 - 07/08/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Beckfoot Plumbing
I agree entirely with Adam's comments.

posted via 124.171.200.16 user mikefield.
message 43595 - 07/08/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Beckfoot Plumbing
You must remember that (apart from the piracy) ML reflects AR's own experiences of China in 1927. The country may well have changed in the 13 years since, though he would have had no first-hand knowledge.
In any case, ML is notionally set in about 1932, only five years after his journey there.
posted via 82.145.211.187 user awhakim.
message 43594 - 07/08/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Beckfoot Plumbing
Buchan was a slightly older generation from Ransome, he also wrote about more cosmopolitan surroundings (Fosse manor excluded) as such he reflected the casual racism and anti-Semitism of discourse in his time. How much was personal (he was an avid Zionist for example) and how much putting attitudes on his characters which he did not wholly espouse is hard to say.

After all Ransome does use the n-word in a casual conversation without it obviously being a slur, and his description of some of the Chinese in Missee Lee strikes me as being a bit patronising at the very least and possibly racist if you want to go that far.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43593 - 07/08/17
From: john nichols, subject: Beckfoot Plumbing
So I am reading John Buchan's The Three Hostages in an Italian Café and I come across his description of a ram needed for his house in the Cotswalds to supplement the well.

it seems in 1924 just using the term ram was enough for the readers. If you used it today no one would have a clue except Tarboarders

--------------------------------------------------------------------

If Max (Beaverbrook) gets to Heaven he won't last long. He will be chucked out for trying to pull off a merger between Heaven and Hell ... after having secured a controlling interest in key subsidiary companies in both places, of course.

H. G. Wells

I thought this also interesting on the Lake Land cam today.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I must say I am struck by the racism in Buchan -- was that really normal at the time -- AR seems to have been completely normally modern compared to Buchan
posted via 137.204.150.34 user Mcneacail.


message 43592 - 07/07/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Canada's 150th Anniversary
Kayaks are not considered to be a sort of canoe in Canadian English, they are a separate type of watercraft, just as rowing boats are not canoes (except at Beckfoot of course).
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 43591 - 07/07/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Canada's 150th Anniversary
Reading the words "Canadian canoe" now strikes me as looking odd. Here, of course, we just call them canoes

Serious paddlers call them canoes in Britain too. The other sort are kayaks.
posted via 86.145.168.104 user MartinH.


message 43590 - 07/06/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Canada's 150th Anniversary
Reading the words "Canadian canoe" now strikes me as looking odd. Here, of course, we just call them canoes.

I recall a joke that my children used to tell.

"What do Chinese people call Chinese food?"

"Food".
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43589 - 07/06/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Canada's 150th Anniversary
The best mention you're gonna get is chapter 3 of Coot Club:

Tom drove it along with a single paddle, like a Canadian canoe, and he took some pride in being able to keep the Dreadnought moving at a good pace without making the slightest sound.
posted via 31.51.234.7 user Magnus.


message 43588 - 07/04/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Canada's 150th Anniversary
Belated thanks for the good wishes. I don't think AR ever wrote anything specifically about Canada, not even in Winter Holiday or Pigeon Post with the gold prospecting both of which could have had a Canadian connection.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 43587 - 07/03/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Canada's 150th Anniversary
As one of those Cannucks, thanks eh!
posted via 184.151.37.94 user rlcossar.
message 43586 - 07/02/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Canada's 150th Anniversary
best wishes to all our Canadian friends on this significant anniversary for Canada.
David
posted via 110.144.4.9 user David.
message 43585 - 06/25/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: S&A 2016 film releasing in the US
Currently there are no plans for any Canadian theatrical release. Ias ked about it and got this response.

Hi Adam,

Swallows and Amazons will not be receiving a Canadian theatrical release but will be available to rent on iTunes on July 14! Let me know if you have any other questions. Thanks!

Best,
Taylor Devorsky
Marketing and Outreach Assistant
Samuel Goldwyn Films
8675 Washington Blvd, STE 203
Culver City, CA 90232
T: 310-237-6876
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43584 - 06/23/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: S&A 2016 film releasing in the US
It's apparently a VERY LIMITED screening. Elizabeth Jolley tracked down their distributor and got this response on the full schedule:
Hi Elizabeth,

Great to hear from you! Please find below the cities for the release and theater they will be playing at in each city. Note that, for the shows listed as 7/13: these cities will only be showing the film for one night only on that Thursday night. If a 7/14 date has an asterisk by it, then the theater will also be playing Thursday showings as well. In addition, as I let Robin know, the film will available on video-on-demand services iTunes, Amazon Video, Google Play, Vudu, and Fandango Now and on Cable VOD platforms through AT&T, DirecTV, InDemand, and Ubiquity on July 14 as well. Let me know if you have any questions!

7/13/17 (One Night Only)
Bellingham, WA: Pickford Film Center
Cape Cod, MA: Wellfleet Cinemas
Mystic, CT: Mystic Luxury Cinemas
Seattle, WA: SIFF Film Center
New Haven, CT: Ciné 4

7/14/17
Pasadena, CA: Laemmle Playhouse*
Portland, OR: Clinton Street Theater*
Lambertville, NJ: ACME Screening Room
Boston, MA: Apple Cinemas Cambridge*
Columbus, OH: Gateway Film Center*
San Francisco, CA: Presidio Theatre*
Plainville, CT: AMC Plainville 20
Londonderry, NH: AMC Classic Londonderry 10
St Petersburg, FL: AMC Sundial 20
Washington, D.C: AMC Loews Rio 18


Best,
Taylor Devorsky
Marketing and Outreach Assistant
Samuel Goldwyn Films
8675 Washington Blvd, STE 203
Culver City, CA 90232
T: 310-237-6876



Whether the 7/14 showings will run for a full week, or only the one day, I don't know.
posted via 73.173.62.89 user Jon.
message 43583 - 06/22/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: S&A 2016 film releasing in the US
I'm looking forward to this. It may not stick to the original plot perfectly but it doesn't seem too far off a story the children may have concocted around a camp fire in the likes of Peter Duck.
posted via 184.151.36.113 user rlcossar.
message 43582 - 06/22/17
From: Jon, subject: S&A 2016 film releasing in the US
Samuel Goldwyn Films contacted Robin Marshall to let him know that they will be releasing the latest S&A film this summer. Web page here. The message, passed on via Simon Horn of TARS-Canada, mentioned it releasing in St. Petersburg, FL on July 14; I expect that will be the general release date, but they don't mention locations or dates on the web page.
posted via 160.111.250.108 user Jon.
message 43581 - 06/21/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Answers found in P&M
The last time the Blacketts' schooling was discussed was in December 2016

I see I mentioned the quote about Mrs Blackett visiting them at their school in post 43137 on New Year's Eve. Maybe some were too busy celebrating to take it in.
posted via 109.180.191.50 user eclrh.


message 43580 - 06/21/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: The two Billies - Charcoal burners.
Maybe the metal container is a development since AR's youth.
posted via 109.180.191.50 user eclrh.
message 43579 - 06/21/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Answers found in P&M
Going to school 'locally' does not preclude boarding. When I was at boarding school in the 50s and 60s, many of the pupils lived within Twenty minutes by car.
posted via 88.110.76.119 user Mike_Jones.
message 43578 - 06/21/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: The two Billies - Charcoal burners.
where AR got his reference from to use in the book

From his own experience (as with most things). He describes in his Autobiography childhood holidays at Nibthwaite where there were "charcoal-burners who in those days still dwelt in wigwams carefully watching their smoking mounds".
posted via 81.129.127.148 user Peter_H.


message 43577 - 06/20/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Answers found in P&M
The last time the Blacketts' schooling was discussed was in December 2016 and the first poster said that he had assumed that the Blacketts went to school locally. Admittedly most people in that thread thought that they were boarders, but there you are. So not necessarily a settled question in some minds.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 43576 - 06/20/17
From: Glen Jansen, subject: Re: The two Billies - Charcoal burners.
Thank you Robert, yes I must admit that I thought so too. This was a technique used in the Wyre Forest, Worcestershire, - perhaps it was also used in the Lake District as well. Not quite sure where AR got his reference from to use in the book.
posted via 81.170.14.53 user Worldofmouth.
message 43575 - 06/20/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Answers found in P&M
I'm surprised to see AQ regarding these questions as newly settled. I thought they'd both been settled at least once before.

You missed another relevant quote in PM, three pages into the first chapter (pp.9-10 in my Cape hardback): "Before leaving, Mrs Blackett had visited Nancy and Peggy at their school" (singular). I think that one has been appealed to in previous discussions.

One point which I can't remember whether we've discussed before: In WH chapter 5 we learn thet the Ds had previously skated "on the indoor skating rink close by the University buildings at home". Did we establish whether ther is/was a rink in Bloomsbury or other plausible London site?

Of course their father could have moved from another university to London between WH and PM - especially as he seems not to have the title Professor in the earlier books.

posted via 109.180.191.50 user eclrh.


message 43574 - 06/20/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: The two Billies - Charcoal burners.
Over the decades I've seen three or four items on TV about charcoal burning, but your video is the first in which they set fire to the wood in the open, then cover it with earth as in the book. The others all used large cylindrical metal containers.
posted via 109.180.191.50 user eclrh.
message 43573 - 06/20/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Walker family 'schoolroom'
I have assumed that a room was set aside for the young Walkers who were not yet of an age to go to boarding school, say seven or eight. So it would have been a constant feature of their accommodation wherever they were stationed.
posted via 88.110.76.119 user Mike_Jones.
message 43572 - 06/19/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Walker family 'schoolroom'
This talk of the Blackett's school arrangements has reminded me of something I do not understand about the Walker family.

S&A Chapter XXIII:
A few minutes later Captain John was lying flat on his stomach on the ground with the guide-book and its map open before him. ...
“There isn’t room to do it here really properly,” he said, “but this is a sketch chart and we’ll do a good one after we get home.”
“A huge one,” said Roger, “like daddy’s chart of the China Seas.”
“And we’ll hang it up on the schoolroom wall to show where we’ve been,” said Susan.

S&A Chapter XXIX:
A moment later Captain Flint walked into the firelight. He carried a large cage wrapped up in a blue cloth cover. ...
[label reads] “From Captain Flint to the able-seaman who saved his Life.”
“But I didn’t save your life,” said Titty.
“I didn’t write life. I wrote Life,” said Captain Flint. “Mixed Moss. It’s the same thing.”
“Thank you very much indeed,” said Titty. “I’ll hang it up in the schoolroom, ready for the parrot.”

What is this 'schoolroom' they speak of? A room at home where they are taught? By Mother or a governess? Or do they mean a 'common room' at a real school?

(Apologies if this has been covered before; I can't find it online.)
posted via 81.129.149.32 user Magnus.


message 43571 - 06/19/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Answers found in P&M
Later in PM (Chapter 3) Nancy says: "last time she was here (i.e. SD), Uncle Jim told Mother she ''must never have the G.A. here again except in term time. And Mother said she never would". Also indicating that the Amazons went (together) to a boarding school.
posted via 202.154.144.216 user hugo.
message 43570 - 06/19/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
Magnus asks, Who can name a book that deceives the reader as to a lead character's sex?

A book I read a few years which, had me assuming one gender when it was revealed to be the opposite in the final chapter, was "Sunset Breezer" by Rosie Austen. Incidentally this is also a book about sailing, though primarily about the people and places seen rather than the mechanics of sailing.
posted via 109.150.84.197 user MartinH.


message 43569 - 06/19/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: Answers found in P&M
I think the evidence for the Amazons attending boarding school's been around longer than that. In SA, Peggy and Susan speak of going to school at the end of the summer in much the same terms; in WH, the quarantine papers for all three families were pretty much the same; and in SW, Mrs. Blackett was coming down to London to "scrub and holystone" the Amazons to get them ready for school. If they were day students, she wouldn't need to meet them in London for that.
posted via 73.173.62.89 user Jon.
message 43568 - 06/18/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Answers found in P&M
The first I believe was common knowledge.

The second I think is a very good piece of evidence. Good find!
posted via 184.151.36.113 user rlcossar.


message 43567 - 06/18/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Answers found in P&M
A recent reading of "The Picts and the Martyrs" has given me what I consider to be definitive answers to a couple of issues which have been discussed here a number of times. The first is the question of where do the Ds live?

It appears that they are glad to have been invited to Beckfoot by an absentee Molly Blackett because otherwise they would have had to spend two weeks "sweltering in London" while their father marked exam papers.(Chapter 2) I doubt that they would have sweltered there unless it was their home.

Secondly, did Nancy and Peggy go to boarding school?

The GA seems to think so, because in her letter inviting herself to come and look after the lonesome waifs abandoned by their mother, she writes"...your mother did not tell me that she would be away from home when you returned from school for your vacation." (Chapter 3)
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43566 - 06/18/17
From: Glen Jansen, subject: The two Billies - Charcoal burners.
I was recently in Bewdley museum in Worcestershire, and as part of their display on charcoal burning in the Wyre Forest, showed this short video of charcoal burners. I was struck as to how similar it was to the description by AR in S&A. I hope you enjoy this.
posted via 81.170.11.232 user Worldofmouth.
message 43565 - 06/17/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Grand Aunts??
The OED entry for grand-aunt (which it hyphenates) says it is much rarer than great-aunt, but is commoner in Irish English than in other varieties.
posted via 109.180.191.155 user eclrh.
message 43564 - 06/17/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Grand Aunts??
GRAND AUNTS is an answer in today's Times Crossword. The clue includes the phrase "intimidates relatives", which argues at least a subliminal acquaintance with AR on the compiler's part, but I don't think I have ever come across Grand Aunts. I think Great Aunts should rise up in protest.
posted via 88.110.89.9 user Mike_Jones.
message 43563 - 06/17/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Grand Aunts??
GRAND AUNTS is an answer in today's Times Crossword. The clue includes the phrase "intimidates relatives", which argues at least a subliminal acquaintance with AR on the compiler's part, but I don't think I have ever come across Grand Aunts. I think Great Aunts should rise up in protest.
posted via 88.110.89.9 user Mike_Jones.
message 43562 - 06/16/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
Perhaps it is a British thing, as being American, most of these authors mentioned in this topic I have never heard of. I did read Secret Garden and the Alice In Wonderland and Through the looking Glass, but those others are just unknowns to me. However, my older sister had quite a collection of the Nancy Drew series, which I enjoyed every one.

One side note here, about Through the Looking Glass: that book gave me a word that has become a part of my vocabulary, even though when I use it, people question me as to whether maybe I just made it up, and cannot believe it was used in that classic Alice book. The word is MISCONSCREWED which lets it be subject to invalid interpretations. It means to DELIBERATE take the wrong understanding knowing some other meaning was intended. Now, have fun looking through your Looking Glass copy to see if you can find it.

Oh, the things we learn from the love of Ransome. These daily visits to this Forum are quite an education.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43561 - 06/16/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
Perhaps it is a British thing, as being American, most of these authors mentioned in this topic I have never heard of. I did read Secret Garden and the Alice In Wonderland and Through the looking Glass, but those others are just unknowns to me. However, my older sister had quite a collection of the Nancy Drew series, which I enjoyed every one.

One side note here, about Through the Looking Glass: that book gave me a word that has become a part of my vocabulary, even though when I use it, people question me as to whether maybe I just made it up, and cannot believe it was used in that classic Alice book. The word is MISCONSCREWED which lets it be subject to invalid interpretations. It means to DELIBERATE take the wrong understanding knowing some other meaning was intended. Now, have fun looking through your Looking Glass copy to see if you can find it.

Oh, the things we learn from the love of Ransome. These daily visits to this Forum are quite an education.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43560 - 06/16/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Death od Margaret Sanders
Thanks for sharing this bit of Ransome related info. I hope that kids are signing out those books
posted via 184.151.37.53 user rlcossar.
message 43559 - 06/14/17
From: Methersgate, subject: Re: Lottie blossom 1 looking for new owner.
I would just like to say that she is a very nice boat and has been kept that way by her expert owners, so a very nice "buy" for someone.
posted via 109.158.29.95 user Methersgate.
message 43558 - 06/14/17
From: Methersgate, subject: Re: Swallowdale - Explanation - a copy that has it...
My copy has the Clifford Webb illistrations and has the following dates:

First Published 1931
Reprinted July 1932
Reprinted August 1932

It has "FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT READ "SWALLOWS AND AMAZONS" at pages 13 and 14 and the text begins on page 17
posted via 109.158.29.95 user Methersgate.


message 43557 - 06/14/17
From: Methersgate, subject: The Secret Garden
My father was born in 1903 and "The Secret Garden" was the favourite book of his sickly childhood (he spent quite a time in an isolation hospital with diptheria).

He came back from a trip to Nairobi ("Civilisation" - we lived in Mogadishu!) with a copy of S&A for my seventh birthday. It was obviously the book that he would have wanted to be given as a child, but he was 26 when it came out!

Unsurprisingly, the other favourite books in his juvenile library were by E. Nesbit, but he also suffered the sort of thing that Lewis Carroll lampooned in "Alice", because he used to come out with remarks about "improving the shining hour", and suchlike.
posted via 109.158.29.95 user Methersgate.


message 43556 - 06/14/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
Magnus asks, Who can name a book that deceives the reader as to a lead character's sex?
In an adult book, Rose Macaulay's The Towers of Trebizond takes great care to be ambiguous about the gender of the lead character, Laurie, until the very end. Modern commentators don't come to it with fresh eyes, and tend to give the game away.
If you think you don't know the book, it has one of the most famous opening sentences in literature: "Take my camel, dear", said my Aunt Dot, as she climbed down from this animal on her return from High Mass.
posted via 82.145.211.186 user awhakim.
message 43555 - 06/14/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Death od Margaret Sanders
Some of you may have known Margaret Sanders, brother of John Sanders who married "The Ship's Baby". I have heard that she died recently, though I don't know the exact date.
Margaret was a supporter of the legacy of Ransome and the S&A books and, about 14 years ago, provided a full set of the books to our local primary school.

posted via 109.150.84.197 user MartinH.
message 43554 - 06/14/17
From: Duncan, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
Yes - I think that's always a good idea.
Having said that Secret Garden was always "up there" with my favourite books as a child and I never thought of it as a "girl's book".

Interestingly, I'm teaching an adult evening class about short stories at the moment, and I used one of Bill Naughton's short stories for children (Spit Nolan) and the women in the group (they're all women!) all thought that it would appeal to boys rather than girls. The reason didn't appear to be because it was a story about boys (I'm not sure there was a single girl) but because it focused so much on the technicality of the go-karts/trollies. It does make me wonder whether the technical sailing (and occasionally fishing/prospecting, etc) elements of AR's books ever put off girl readers? I don't really see why it should do, but I suppose being a bit obsessed with one particular thing is quiet boyish.
posted via 212.219.3.100 user Duncan.


message 43553 - 06/11/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
Edith Nesbit, who I believe Ransome admired. had a mixed family as leads in most of her children's books.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43552 - 06/11/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?

I notice that all of us who have contributed to this thread thus far are male. In our exchange, we all seem to agree that the gender of the lead character doesn't make much difference to any of us, personally, and we've seen a fair bit to indicate it might not make *much* difference at all so long as the story itself is engaging.

How about each of us now takes the time to go ask a female friend? A little bit of direct research, instead of guessing from past conversations?

My ex just arrived, so I'll ask her, and I'll ask my sister when I see her this week.

More later.

Alex
posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43551 - 06/11/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
I can think of pre AR/EB books with more the one lead character, but they tend to be all boys or all girls, e.g Little Women, written by a woman, and The Coral Island, written by a man.

More generally, the idea of a lead character is limiting in itself. Who is the lead character in e.g. Oliver Twist or Dombey and Son?
posted via 92.18.209.175 user Mike_Jones.


message 43550 - 06/11/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
"She has expressed concern that boys are not inclined to read books that have a lead girl."

Did she express this as a feeling on her part, or an assertion? Either way did she offer any substantiation (I'm not looking for peer-reviewed studies here, but a bit of understanding would help). I am curious because this strikes me as possibly "anecdotal evidence", which isn't.

Perhaps the previous concern that children weren't reading at all has been superceded?

posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43549 - 06/11/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
...can there really be ‘female’ and ‘male’ books?

The original question was about a male or female lead, and whether that mattered to children. It would be nice to think it doesn't matter, but I'm pretty sure it does.

Anyway, it has made me think...

AR, Enid Blyton, and many others were cunning in their use of a mixed group, so that the idea of a 'lead' character was carefully blurred. Was this a relatively modern trick, in the 1920s/30s? I wonder if older books (Treasure Island, for example) were more often stuck with a single lead character. Was that the exception or the rule?

Plus...
Who can name a book that deceives the reader as to a lead character's sex? I recall that the last page of "The Turbulent Term of Tyke Tiler" (1977 Carnegie medal winner) reveals the trick the author has been running throughout the book. Most people assume it is a stereotypical naughty schoolboy, not a tomboy.
posted via 31.48.241.183 user Magnus.


message 43548 - 06/11/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
This maybe slightly ‘off-topic’ with regard to AR but can there really be ‘female’ and ‘male’ books?

If there are, then when and who decided that AR’s are for ‘boys’ (though some of the early editions reviews show that they were clearly thought of as that.)

To the general question, I just read novels that look interesting from their blurb, if when I start reading them I don’t enjoy them or like them I just stop. Quickly thinking about it most of my favourite novels are by women and so are my favourite writers, at a very quick estimate I would say 70%.

Not that it matters, it doesn’t even come down to the quality. Sometimes I read ‘rubbish’ as a form or relaxation or escape.
posted via 2.30.78.183 user MTD.


message 43547 - 06/10/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: Copyright on AR's works
The Godine Ransomes have the same illustrations as the JC Ransomes. Spelling, too.
posted via 73.173.62.89 user Jon.
message 43546 - 06/10/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
Yes, My 13/14 year old daughter loves the Alex Rider series, and the Percy Jackson series. She has no problems with a male lead and action/adventure.

Then she read Jacqueline Wilson and other 'girly' stuff as well. That's the way to do it: rounded!

On the same theme...
All grown men should try a 'chick flick' book once or twice. They are a very interesting insight into the secret world of women. Will make your eyebrows rise! (And you may well groan, of course.)
posted via 31.48.241.183 user Magnus.


message 43545 - 06/09/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Copyright on AR's works
In Australia and New Zealand books published simultaneously in America and Britain were only available from the British publishers until this cozy agreement was deemed uncompetitive. Part of rules allowing parallel importing, although this can cause problems with electronic items under guarantee where (quite fairly?) the authorised importer does not feel obliged to honour the guarantee. And allowing multizone DVD players means that DVDs can be imported by local suppliers like "The Warehouse" and played in New Zealand.

PS: do the American Godine editions of S&A books have any differences apart from the illustrations eg Americanised spelling? Of course some British editions eg Red Fox also have their own or amended illustrations compared with Cape.
posted via 202.154.145.223 user hugo.


message 43544 - 06/09/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
I had heard of Anne of Green Gables, Katie and what she did, Little Women, and Noel Streatfeild's ballet books, but it never occurred to me to read any of them. But how many girl contemporaries of mine used to read Biggles?

I think that makes sense, in general. Boys will identify more readily with boy characters, and identifying with the characters is certainly important. But I had a sister, and she read Malcolm Saville books... And I certainly read those, and enjoyed them a lot. I suspect that "cross-gender" reading happens a great deal between brothers and sisters.
I don't think that my sister read my Biggles books, but Anne, my (Swiss) wife, who was one of a family of four sisters, told me that they all read Biggles books.
posted via 90.255.37.238 user PeterC.


message 43543 - 06/09/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
As for the issue of boys being 'put off' I think it is far more complex than just saying its becasue there is no male lead.

I'm sure it is much more complex than just the gender of the lead character. In my opinion boys like stories with action and adventure and are not so keen on "goody goody" books. Girls are more content with a slower story which develops character and emotional ties. These are probably generalisations and there are probably examples among your own family and friends which do not fit.

Certainly I read some books that were considered to be for girls: Ballet Shoes and Heidi for two. The former I reread at least once.

Are there any teachers or librarians on tarboard who can tell us whether the Alex Rider series appeal to girls as well as boys, and do boys read the Tracey Beaker books?
posted via 86.189.206.87 user MartinH.


message 43542 - 06/08/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
I agree. I too had never thought of lead characters in AR's books. Pretty well all the children have their moments of "leadership", and the books are the richer for it.
posted via 88.110.92.1 user Mike_Jones.
message 43541 - 06/08/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
When I first read AR it never occured to me that there were single lead characters at all, and now all these years later realise this is one of his many strengths as a writer.

As for the issue of boys being 'put off' I think it is far more complex than just saying its becasue there is no male lead.
posted via 95.150.15.77 user MTD.


message 43540 - 06/08/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
Does Lauren Child feel equally strongly about the possibility that girls feel the same way about books with a lead boy? Thinking of my own childhood, I had heard of Anne of Green Gables, Katie and what she did, Little Women, and Noel Streatfeild's ballet books, but it never occurred to me to read any of them. But how many girl contemporaries of mine used to read Biggles?

From the point of view of sales, children's authors benefit from appealing to both sexes, as AR obviously did.
posted via 88.110.92.1 user Mike_Jones.


message 43539 - 06/08/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?

I know "Secret Garden" was one of my favorites while growing up, as were the "Borrower" books, with Arrietty in the lead. The only other book from my youth (that I remember) with a female lead was "From The Mixed-up Files Of Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler", but I think I'm comfortable saying that had I been handed any given story, the protagonist's gender wouldn't have mattered so long as s/he was admirable and it was a good story.

As for S&A, I know I identified with both John *and* Titty, in about equal measure. It was much more about sympathetic personalities than similar chromosomes.

Alex
posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43538 - 06/08/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
I believe that Philip Pullman's "His Dark Materials" books are popular with boys as well as girls despite one of the main child characters being female.
Going back to John Wilson's post on 25 great girl characters video 9http://www.tarboard.net/tarboard/messages/43509.htm) I find that I had read about half of the books mentioned, some I hadn't because I was too old!
I suspect that good literate children's books will appeal regardless of whether the main character is a hero or a heroine.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43537 - 06/08/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
I believe that Philip Pullman's "His Dark Materials" books are popular with boys as well as girls despite one of the main child characters being female.
Going back to John Wilson's post on 25 great girl characters video 9http://www.tarboard.net/tarboard/messages/43509.htm) I find that I had read about half of the books mentioned, some I hadn't because I was too old!
I suspect that good literate children's books will appeal regardless of whether the main character is a hero or a heroine.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43536 - 06/08/17
From: andy clayton, subject: Do boys read girls books?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-40185267


Lauren Child, who writes Charlie and Lola stories, has become the new Children's Laureate. She has expressed concern that boys are not inclined to read books that have a lead girl. Ransome changed the gender of Taqui Altounyan to John Walker to improve the balance of S&A but there is still a preponderance of females in the series. Certainly the leaders, or the ones who narrate the viewpoint are often the girl characters. Did this affect the interest of any of the male readers here? I am thinking not at all or they still wouldn't be reading them today. Thoughts?
posted via 46.208.204.1 user cousin_jack.


message 43535 - 06/06/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Copyright on AR's works
In Canada, as a relic of Empire and Commonwealth, most British authored books are usually first published by British publishers using British editions rather than American publishers using American editions. Sometimes American editions are imported and so you can compare the two in bookstores, for example the Red Fox and Godine editions of Ransome's works.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43534 - 06/05/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Copyright on AR's works
While the expiry of copyright on AR’s works in Britain is from 1 January 2038, in Canada, New Zealand and a number of other countries it is “Life + 50” (not 70) years or from 1 January 2018. But I do not propose to reprint "Swallows and Amazons" next year (relief all round!). In America as the series were published before 1978 the rule is 95 years from date of publication, and the copyright on "Swallows and Amazons" will expire in 2025 or 2026, and later for other books in the series. I do not know whether it is 95 years from the exact date or (like current copyright) from the beginning of the next year i.e. 1 January 2026 (obviously preferable, in view of the difficulty sometimes in establishing the exact date of publication or of author’s death). This would depend on the date of publication in America (and perhaps Canada?) I suppose. I noticed in a biography of Ngaio Marsh that some of her crime novels in the 1930s to 1950s were published in different years in Britain and America (sometimes later but in some cases earlier, e.g. "Spinsters in Jeopardy" in 1953 by Little Brown, Boston, and in 1954 by Collins, London).

PS: I noticed in the Wikipedia article on "Copyright in the United States" that a judge in 2016 decided that copyright on remastered recordings would be extended, in view of the work in remastering them.

PS: as noted the performing rights to Barrie’s play "Peter Pan" (owned by the Great Ormond Street Hospital) were extended indefinitely. As Barrie died in 1937 his British copyright ran out at the end of 1987; but was brought back by the 1995 harmonisation of EC copyright, until the end of 2007.

posted via 203.96.137.144 user hugo.
message 43533 - 06/03/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: My politics is fishing
Thanks, Woll. I realise now that several of the messages you refer to were removed before I read them - hence my puzzlement.
posted via 5.81.1.61 user Peter_H.
message 43532 - 06/03/17
From: Woll, subject: Re: My politics is fishing
The messages that were removed from the "Copyright on AR's works" conversation, contained political opinions not relevant to a discussion on copyright in relation to AR's works, or TarBoard. The other messages in the conversation remain in place.
posted via 87.112.221.8 user Woll.
message 43531 - 06/02/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: My politics is fishing
Thanks again, Adam. :)
posted via 124.171.165.188 user mikefield.
message 43530 - 06/02/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: My politics is fishing
Sorry Adam, but I don't understand how discussing the international aspects of copyright law has necessarily to be 'political'. As I saw it, the argument was in essence whether, from the Ransome point of view, it might have been better to have aligned our copyright laws with those of the USA and Canada (both mainly English-speaking) rather than with the laws of the European countries (all non-English speaking and therefore, with one or two exceptions, not really interested in Ransome's works). Copyright is complex and by its nature arouses international issues - these should not be confused with politics. AR's 'fishing' answer was given to Sir Basil Thomson, Head of Scotland Yard, when AR was in real danger of being arrested as a spy - rather a different matter altogether.
posted via 5.81.1.61 user Peter_H.
message 43528 - 06/01/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: My politics is fishing
Fair cop, guv'nor. You got us bang to rights. P C Tedder would be proud of you.
posted via 92.18.210.27 user Mike_Jones.
message 43527 - 06/01/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: My politics is fishing
Thank you.
posted via 90.255.37.238 user PeterC.
message 43526 - 06/01/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: My politics is fishing
Thank you.
posted via 90.255.37.238 user PeterC.
message 43525 - 06/01/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: My politics is fishing
I would ask you all to review the TarBoard Terms and Conditions of Use, especially No.6 "Whilst encouraging a wide range of views, we will consider removing any content that other users might find offensive, threatening or merely annoying."

Given the comments I assume that one or more of these apply and have acted accordingly.

posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43518 - 05/31/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Copyright on AR's works
The copyright on Arthur Ransome’s works published before 1923 has expired in America. While America now has the "Life + 70y" rule for works published from 1978, his works from 1923 would come under different rules in America (depending on year of publication not of death, and sometimes whether the copyright had been renewed).

Now, the important date is the year of death of the author, and copyright expires 50 or 70 years after death, or rather from the 1st of January of the next year. Hence the period is not affected by the date of death in that year, or the years in which the works were first published. For Ngaio Marsh (died 1982) the copyright period will be the same for her first work (A Man lay Dead, 1934) as for her last (Light Thickens, 1982). Her piece about Roderick Alleyn was probably published before her death so the same rule would apply (though for works published posthumously there are different rules).

Re Ngaio Marsh, she was still producing plays by the Canterbury University Drama Society in the 1960s when I was a student there, and I was in the crowd scenes as a Roman for her last production, of Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar.

posted via 202.154.149.1 user hugo.


message 43517 - 05/31/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: Copyright on AR's works
There can be changes to copyright, but in Britain it took a Prime Minister to achieve it. The book in question is "Peter Pan" the gift of the rights by J. M. Barrie to Great Ormond Street Hospital for children has proved to be "a significant source of income". The rights should have expired in 1987, fifty years after Barrie's death, but a change to the Copyright Designs & Patent Act ensured that in the UK the hospital will always continue to enjoy the income. If you want to find out more, go on the hospital website (www.gosh.org/about-us/peter-pan/copyright

posted via 86.157.210.139 user Paul_Crisp.

message 43515 - 05/31/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Copyright on AR's works
I had heard that copyright is 'renewed' when a work is republished, hence the new editions of S&A out a few years ago will overrride the "70 years from author's death" rule. Can any experts say if this is correct?

Apparently, this is why Disney remasters their films every so often, and makes a shiny new case for them. Gotta keep the copyright going ad infinitum in each country they distribute to!
posted via 86.163.162.89 user Magnus.


message 43514 - 05/30/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Copyright on AR's works
Thanks Adam. I don't expect to be around by then....
posted via 124.171.211.235 user mikefield.
message 43513 - 05/30/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Copyright on AR's works
Copyright law is very complicated and also varies between different legal jurisdictions.

In the United Kingdom, the basic rule for literary works such as books or plays etc. is 70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the death of the author or last surviving author in the case of multiple authors, occurs. So Arthur Ransome's work will be out of copyright in the UK on 1st January 2038. These laws change from time to time so don't make any expensive advance plans for your personally published special edition of Swallows and Amazons until nearer the date.

posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 43512 - 05/30/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Copyright on AR's works
This thread is prompted by comments on the 'Swallowdale - Explanation' thread below.

I'd like some information from someone in the know about copyright, please. My (sketchy) reading about copyright and the Berne Convention would appear to show that copyright in a written work generally expires 50 years after the author's death.

Does that means that copyright in AR's works will expire in three days' time? Or if not, why not?
posted via 124.171.211.235 user mikefield.


message 43511 - 05/30/17
From: Jock, subject: Re: The 25 greatest fictional girl characters
A great list, even if the Blackett sisters are only placed at no. 14, and they miss out Sally Lockhart, one of my own favourites.

http://pullman.davidficklingbooks.com/publication?pubID=99
posted via 178.43.119.39 user Jock.


message 43510 - 05/30/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Swallowdale - Explanation
For ATR to post Their Own Story would of course require permission from the Arthur Ransome Literary Executors (ARLE) as it is presumably still under copyright and part of AR's Literary Estate.

It is also available in print, as it happens: Their Own Story was published in Christina Hardyment's Arthur Ransome and Captain Flint's Trunk.

Under these circumstances, I don't think it is something they would be comfortable with having us publish at least at the current time.

Dave

posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43509 - 05/30/17
From: John Wilson, subject: The 25 greatest fictional girl characters
An Auckland father and his eldest (11) daughter have rated the 25 greatest girl fictional characters, including the Blackett sisters! Recommended reading includes Swallows and Amazons, Winter Holiday and Coot Club.

They did not include some like Lewis Carrol’s Alice as not enough of a a character in her own right. And the Blackett sisters were No 14, to save you watching the video (and hearing of many I hadn’t heard of!). So the Blackett sisters; Peggy as well as Nancy!


posted via 202.154.149.1 user hugo.
message 43508 - 05/29/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Swallowdale - Explanation
Owen, I'm sure people would love to read your article if you care to post it.

In any case I can't see why ATR wouldn't post Their Own Story verbatim for those who haven't read it, and since I've got it in PDF form I'll ask Dave T. if he'd like to put it up.

Dave, would you care to put it up? :-)

In the short term, I've put Their Own Story on my own website for anyone interested. (If Dave decides to host it on ATR, then I'll take it down again.)
posted via 124.171.211.235 user mikefield.


message 43507 - 05/28/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Swallowdale - Explanation
Thanks to both Owen and Mike Field for reminding me of the obvious places I should have had a look at first!

I think it was actually seeing it in the book so taking me by surprise that did it!
posted via 95.150.76.111 user MTD.


message 43506 - 05/28/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Swallowdale - Explanation

Count me as "interested", please.

Alex

posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43505 - 05/28/17
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Re: Swallowdale - Explanation
For those who were members of TARS, I wrote an article on this topic in 2007. These pages appeared in the 1st, 2nd and I think 3rd impressions. They disappeared thereafter.
This was all tied up with AR wanting readers to buy books in chronological order, an idea that was firmly sat on by Cape.
SD was a mess from the date point of view, I suspect AR lost track of the dates through his constant redrafts and pressure to complete in time for the novel to be published by Christmas. There were also many references to PD although the novel was published after SD.
Perhaps, if anyone is interested, I could republish the article on ATR. Although out of courtesy I would want to let TARS/MM know that I was so doing.

posted via 143.159.28.254 user OwenRoberts.
message 43504 - 05/28/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Swallowdale - Explanation
I seem to remember that Hugh Brogan quoted it. Anyhow, I've kept a copy from somewhere. I'll be happy to scan it if anyone wants it.
posted via 124.171.211.235 user mikefield.
message 43503 - 05/28/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Swallowdale - Explanation
Thanks Dave, where I should have looked!
posted via 95.150.76.111 user MTD.
message 43502 - 05/28/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Swallowdale - Explanation

VERY cool!

Is there a copy of that Author's Note floating around that I might have a look at it? My 1932, fourth impression, doesn't have it.

Alex

posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43501 - 05/28/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions

And there are many reasons to not buy a Kindle! ;-)

Alex
posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43500 - 05/28/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Swallowdale - Explanation
According to Wayne Hammond's Bibliography of AR, that note was in the first edition (1931) (referenced as "the author's note") bur later omitted. It didn't appear in the first U.S. edition (1932).
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43499 - 05/28/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Swallowdale - Explanation
I recently acquired a copy of SD from August 1932, my previously oldest copy was from 1936. I was surprised to see a page before the book proper begins entitled

FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT READ
"SWALLOWS AND AMAZONS"

which explains the circumstance of SA and the creation of the PD story on the wherry in Norfolk.

Does anyone know if AR wrote this, or if he insisted on its inclusion? I've not seen it in any other edition.
posted via 95.150.76.111 user MTD.


message 43498 - 05/26/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
Ah. You might well be right at that, Alex. I know that that was one of my reasons for not buying a Kindle, anyway....
posted via 124.171.211.235 user mikefield.
message 43497 - 05/26/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
Yes, the Kindle can run anything you like --*IF* you convert it to .mobi. So can any e-reader --Nook, Kobo, etc.-- run anything you like, so long as you convert it to a file format it understands. (I think the exception to this is .pdf, which most e-readers can run innately.) That's what your "free bit of software" is doing: converting a file to a format your e-reader can read. And yes, they're generally wonderful and easy to use. My personal favorite, of those bits of software, is Calibre (also free), since I can use it to edit the ebook at the same time. Potentially, I could even use Calibre to add in the missing ML postscript.

IIRC, the exceptions to this conversion system are ebooks that have embedded DRM. Typically, those cannot be converted from one format to another --since unlicensed modification or distribution is the entire point of DRM. Now my understanding is that DRM is relatively easy to circumvent, so some freeware may be able to manage the conversion despite the DRM, but that isn't something I play about with or know anything about.

Alex

posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43496 - 05/25/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
The Kindle can load anything you like, if you run it through a free bit of software first. I've taken all sorts of file formats, from other 'locked down' ebook publishers, run them through a (legal) converter, and transferred them to my Kindle with the USB cable.

No fancy knowledge required.

The one I use is at the link below. There may be others that are better.

posted via 81.156.113.180 user Magnus.
message 43495 - 05/25/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions

IIRC, it was that Amazon sold all their ebooks in .azw, which is .mobi with DRM (much to the annoyance of publishers, the retailer is who enables DRM), and only the Kindle can read .azw. So (initially) to read ebooks bought on Amazon, you need a Kindle, and if you bought a Kindle, and built a nice .azw-format library, it is with Kindle that you are stuck.

Alex

posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43494 - 05/25/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
... except that I think Kindle originally only used its own format because it hoped people would therefore have to buy its e-book readers or not read anything much. What an invitation to the competition.

I myself have a Kobo and everything I want to read, whether on the reader or on the computer, I either download directly in EPUB format or download in HTML and convert.
posted via 124.171.196.222 user mikefield.


message 43493 - 05/25/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions

Ebook sales have been flattening dramatically over the last couple years --this has been quite the subject of discussion amongst writers and publishers-- so a decision may have been made at Godine, based on the sales performance of the earlier books, to not release the later books as ebooks.

Alex


posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43492 - 05/25/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions

Pretty much every publisher releases their ebooks for both Kindle (.mobi, .azw) and Nook, etc. (.epub). Doing otherwise would limit their potential market.

Alex


posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43491 - 05/25/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
For quite a while they didn't have the rights to publish some of the later books at all, though I guess now they have done all of them? This could be related to that earlier issue.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43490 - 05/24/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
They've been out for a few years; I really need to write Godine and ask why they don't make the rest of the series available on ebook.
posted via 164.39.226.33 user Jon.
message 43489 - 05/24/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
Words are fine; images of course are still the scans; since Godine uses the JC as their basis they look OK too.
posted via 164.39.226.33 user Jon.
message 43488 - 05/24/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
Kobo uses epub format so I assume that they now publish in several different formats.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43487 - 05/24/17
From: d, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
So are they .mobi (Kindle format)? Or is RH publishing multiple e-formats?
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43486 - 05/24/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
My ebooks were bought in Canada from Kobo and are published by Random House, who are now owners of Jonathan Cape.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43485 - 05/23/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
Adam, do you have the Kindle editions or the Godine? I would guess Kindle since you have the ML flaw but it would be really curious if the Godine books have the same problem. That's assuming ML is available in the Godine releases of course, which I don't know.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43484 - 05/22/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions

How do the US ebooks look, in terms of good reproductions from the printed version? A lot of times an e-publisher will just scan a printed version and use OCR to transition the text to .epub. This is a far cry from ideal.

And then there are publishers who omit the postscript of ML... (Ugh!)

Alex


posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43483 - 05/22/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
I recently found myself with a surfeit of Chapters gift cards a few months ago so decided to splurge on the complete set of ebooks for my Kobo to go with my Puffin paperbacks and my Cape hardbacks.
I just checked and the Missee Lee postscript is still missing from my version too.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43482 - 05/22/17
From: dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
Thanks, Jon, I didn't realize that; did this happen recently?

I managed to get the entire set of British editions a few years ago (but I had to be in the U.K. and another couple of hoops to do it) thanks to Rob Boden.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43481 - 05/21/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
In the US, SA, SD, WH, PD, WD and PM are available in epub through Barnes & Noble Nook. To get the rest of them available in the US, I guess we need to badger David Godine (whose brand is on the US ebook editions).
posted via 195.162.103.82 user Jon.
message 43480 - 05/21/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
Are the ARs available as ebooks? I know they weren't for quite a while.

Yes, there's aa authorized set available from Amazon.co.uk for the Kindle. The transfer editing was a little sloppy (there's an awful omission of the postscript of Missee Lee (the paragraph following THE END) starting with "Well, not quite the end. ...") unless it's been corrected in the last couple of years.

I don't know of any editions in other e-formats.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43479 - 05/21/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
I'm glad Magnus said that, about the paperbacks being so big. My sense was that the Capes weren't that thick, but not having Puffins to measure against, I decided I must be delusional. The Capes aren't that much thicker than the Godines --and hardbacks are so much nicer!

This is embarassing: I have both a Kindle and a Nook (I use them to test-run different formats of my own writing) and didn't even think of them. Which tells you what I think of them as a reading experience!

Are the ARs available as ebooks? I know they weren't for quite a while.

I don't currently have a solar set-up, but it's on my wish list, so I can keep the computer charged and, thus, keep writing while I'm out sailing. Maybe, if I do get set up that way, an e-reader would be the most practical option, even if it doesn't have the same appeal as a real book.

Nah. When I'm fog-bound, I want a book.

And I agree with Mike Dennis, that sometimes it's good to make a choice and limit selections. The ones I listed are my favorites; the companions I'd want along on a cruise.

Using my sister as a lending library is a clever idea, but I'd rather be self-contained, and not bound to visiting any given port.

Again, thank you all.

Alex


posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43478 - 05/20/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
I'm not sure it would be heresy, but it just isn't the same as reading a physical book, the interaction with the pages and so on.

Yes, e-readers can store a huge number but better to have to make some proper choices. On occasions, even from AR's twelve, it makes us choose one or two in preference to others.
posted via 95.149.130.83 user MTD.


message 43477 - 05/19/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
You could have a lending library with your sister mailing different editions to and from ports of call.
posted via 184.151.37.19 user rlcossar.
message 43476 - 05/19/17
From: Patrick Fox, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
Would it be heresy to suggest a Kindle? Plus a solar charger, since I imagine you won't have power on board. I've found a solar to USB charger very effective at keeping phones etc charged on several small boat cruising / camping trips, and a B&W kindle is much less demanding on power.

Cheers
Patrick
posted via 185.58.164.43 user PJF.


message 43475 - 05/19/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
The new editions are ENORMOUS compared to the old ones. A 2015 paperback is thicker than a 1930s hardback! I don't know if it was a deliberate choice by the publisher to make the books look good value for money. I think it is the margins which do it. And the slightly larger type.

Of course kids books are expected to be longer these days. I laugh when I compare the Narnia stories to the final Harry Potter or The Hunger Games etc. 1cm or less has grown to 3 or 5cm!


posted via 81.156.113.180 user Magnus.


message 43474 - 05/18/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
Thank you all.

As much as I love hardbound, I agree that a more sacrificial (I hate applying that word to a book!) paperback would be the way to go, for use aboard the boat.

From the dimensions you've all given me, it sounds like I need to dig around for a couple of the Puffin edition. My sister has a set, and I'll be seeing her this next week. I'll bring a set of calipers to make sure of the thickness --that should startle her!

Alex


posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43473 - 05/18/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Colouring Illustrations
I was brought up not to deface books, so it never occurred to me to colour in the pictures in the SA series. Now of course, with photocopying facilities being run of the mill, children could well enjoy colouring in enlarged AR drawings. And why not?
posted via 88.110.83.219 user Mike_Jones.
message 43472 - 05/18/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
I have seven of the books in Puffin, bought in the early or middle 1980s. They are about 7+1/8" tall (varying by a millimetre or so) by about 4+3/8" (varying similarly) by about 7/8" thick.

My one Red Fox, Swallowdale, is just under 7" tall by again about 4+3/8" by 1+1/4" thick.


posted via 109.180.195.92 user eclrh.


message 43471 - 05/18/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Colouring Illustrations
Yes, Amazon Publications did an S&A Colouring Book in 2005. It was called Vol.1 with a view to a second one for the Broads. But it sold very sluggishly, and we eventually in 2015 reduced the price (cheaper by the dozen) to clear the shelf space. All gone now, but I was able to get one last year as a present for a young friend in Australia. A great success, too!
It's worth quoting the blurb:
Many of us who read the Swallows and Amazons books as children took crayons or paints and coloured our favourite illustrations. Perhaps others, who would have liked to do so, did not try for fear of spoiling their books. Sharp-eyed viewers of the Ransome Remembered video will have spotted that the Altounyan children coloured their pictures too.
With permission from the Literary Executors we have reproduced twelve pages of illustrations for you to colour or simply frame. We would like to make it clear that the choice is not that of the Amazon Publications team. Instead we went to two young Tars, and have listened to their advice.
Do you remember the wonderful colourists who brought the Rupert Bear Annuals to life? Here is your chance to follow their example. Pencil crayons, watercolours, felt pens - the choice is yours.

I periodically come across copies with crayon colouring; nothing as good as the "Russell Lodge" water colours. But those pictures are crying out for the reader to join in.
posted via 82.145.211.214 user awhakim.
message 43470 - 05/18/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Colouring Illustrations
You may recall that the covers of the old Puffin paperback series had AR drawings which had been professionally coloured in. On the whole I liked these, except that for some reason on both the Big Six and Picts & Martyrs covers Dorothea was shown wearing a lurid pink frock. On the Pigeon Post cover, Susan and Titty were also shown in pink frocks. Why the artist didn't simply use white, I don't know.
posted via 31.51.45.174 user Peter_H.
message 43469 - 05/17/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
First thought Alex, without even measuring the various volumes, is the Puffin editions from the 1960s and 1970s.
posted via 95.146.184.162 user MTD.
message 43468 - 05/17/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Colouring Illustrations
When I was nine I was given a copy of Elleston Trevor's 'The Island of the Pines' for Christmas -- a wonderful book that I read at one sitting after lunch on Christmas Day. (Along with AR's books this is one all my all-time favourites, reread every couple of years.) The book has literally dozens of b&w full-page and in-text illustrations, and I made it my early mission in life to colour them all in with my 'Lakeland' pencils. (That's the AR connection.)

Looking at them 60+ years later, I can't pretend they're beautifully done. But I don't think they're too bad, and I know I had an awful lot of fun doing them....

[ Image ]

posted via 124.171.196.222 user mikefield.


message 43467 - 05/17/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
I think paperbacks would be a better way for you to go, Alex. Keep the good hard-covers for use on land. I've had the full Red Fox paperback set for years, along with my Jonathan Cape series hard-covers. The downside of paperbacks is that the illustrations are pretty small and smudgy.

My Red Foxes are 7" x 4 1/4", and the thickest is probably 'Swallowdale' at 1 1/2". BookFinder indicates that AbeBooks has used copies of 'S&A' for $US1 plus postage, and if all the titles are available that way you could get the whole set for a pretty modest outlay.

Moreover, if you want decoration for a bulkhead, you might consider one of my maps, laminated, to go with them. :-)

posted via 124.171.196.222 user mikefield.
message 43466 - 05/17/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
Here's a question for the collectors: what are the outside (overall) dimensions of the different editions of the books? For instance, Godine's edition is 8" x 5-1/2". Ideally I'd like to know the thicknesses of S&A and WDMTGTS, too --again, Godine's are 15/16" each.

I ask because I'm putting together a small, stuck-at-anchor-in-the-fog fiction library to have with me on my very small boat for a multi-month cruise I'm planning in the next few years. My sloop is only 19', so space is extremely limited, and precedence must be given to coast pilot, cruising guide, etc., thus I'm wondering which AR edition has the smallest footprint. At the moment, I'm looking at only taking my two favorites, S&A and WDMTGTS, together with a few other favorites (Racundra's First Cruise, The Day's Work/Many Inventions, collected Saki, collected O.Henry, Three Men In A Boat).

In some ways thickness is more of a concern, since I'm more limited by length of bookshelf than height (9" max) or depth 6-1/2"). So while the Puffin Edition softcovers are smaller footprints (standard mass market paperback), they may be thicker.

I have Godine and Cape editions on my shelf, but I don't have a Puffin close at hand, and I know nothing of the Vintage Classics, RedFox, or the different Random House editions. And there may be others who, by going with lighter paper or denser/smaller type, are what I ought to be looking for.

Any thoughts?

Alex


posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43465 - 05/16/17
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Re: Coloured Illustrations
My daughter was a fanatic colour of book illustrations. I used to take the book into work and make decent copies on parchment paper for her use.
I think TARS through Amazon Publications, used to and maybe still do, a colouring book of some Lakeland illustrations taken from the books.
Did see in a second-hand book shop a copy of S&A, where the chapter header – which repeat up to four times – had all been coloured but the main illustrations left uncoloured. It looked attractive and perhaps I should have purchased it.
Overall, unless the book edition is rare, well executed colouring can add something tote book and even more so if it is done by a faly member

posted via 143.159.28.254 user OwenRoberts.
message 43464 - 05/16/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Coloured Illustrations
I agree Alex about colouring in books, and these were a surprise (I've seen editions for sale on e-bay where some poor colouring in is presented as an advantage!)
posted via 2.28.231.176 user MTD.
message 43463 - 05/16/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Coloured Illustrations
I don't at all approve of coloring in the books, but those *are* surprisingly good. Especially the one of Tom sailing home.

This is borderline heresy, given that they're AR's illustrations, but what would a colored-illustration edition be like? Looking at the other books on my shelf, I don't really envision something like Howard Pyle or N.C. Wyeth plates. Are there illustrators out there who could do the works justice?

Alex
posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43462 - 05/16/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Coloured Illustrations
Recently I acquired a 1st edition of CC, one of the main reasons for me trying to get 1st editions of the twelve is the quality of the illustrations.

When I looked through this copy two of the illustrations had been coloured in what appears to be either water-colours or basic children's paints. Surprisingly, whoever carried it out did quite a good job. You can see each of them at these addresses -

http://www.the-russell-lodge.co.uk/images/cccoloured01.jpg

http://www.the-russell-lodge.co.uk/images/cccoloured02.jpg

(My thanks to the owners of Russell Lodge to let me use their Webspace to store the images.)
posted via 2.28.231.176 user MTD.


message 43461 - 05/16/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Lottie blossom 1 looking for new owner.
Oh, I agree with you Ross. However, I was thinking about the suggestion that the NBT adopt Ragged Robin. I am sure that the NBT has very linited resources with which to maintain Nancy, and would not want to 'Bite off more than they could chew'. I was trying to point out that it is not just the purchase price which has to be considered, but the ongoing maintenance, which is not cheap.
David
posted via 110.144.119.183 user David.
message 43460 - 05/15/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Lottie blossom 1 looking for new owner.
Every hobby has a cost.
posted via 184.151.37.107 user rlcossar.
message 43459 - 05/15/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Lottie blossom 1 looking for new owner.
The problem with adopting a beautiful and well-cared-for yacht is that you also adopt the ongoing and recurrent maintenance expenses. As if the eye-watering cost of antifouling paint wasn't enough, the cost of mooring/marina and insurance is sure to bring on cardiac problems! How do I know this? Don't ask!
David
posted via 110.144.119.183 user David.
message 43458 - 05/14/17
From: Andy, subject: Re: Lottie blossom 1 looking for new owner.
£15000. If only my lottery ticket had worked... is this possibly an option for the Nancy Blackett Trust?

Andy
posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.


message 43457 - 05/12/17
From: Ted_Evans, subject: Lottie blossom 1 looking for new owner.
Lottie Blossom 1 (aka Ragged Robin III), Hillyard 6 tonner, owned by Arthur & Evgenia in 1952, is for sale due to age and infirmity of current owners.

She is in excellent condition, fully equipped for cruising overseas.

See link for details of construction, inventory etc


[ Image ]

posted via 2.103.26.190 user Ted_Evans.


message 43456 - 05/09/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: The Amazons 2017
Thanks Paul. I'd noticed a BBC report about them -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-39817430

and wondered if there was an AR connection.

Interesting they chose 'The Amazons' and not 'The Swallows'!
posted via 2.28.82.25 user MTD.


message 43455 - 05/09/17
From: Andy, subject: Re: AR Betting Club
:)

I'm looking forward to horses called 'Trotsky's Secretary', 'Death and Glory' and 'Jolys Tin-Trumpet'. Hopefully all riding in the Outlaw Stakes at Norwich.
posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.


message 43454 - 05/09/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: The Amazons 2017
Whilst in Suffolk at the weekend, I picked up the latest edition of ‘Bounce’, which describes itself as East Anglia’s leading independent lifestyle magazine. The cover picture was of a group called The Amazons. According to the article about them, they “are tipped to be one of 2017’s biggest breakthrough rock acts”. They release an eponymous debut album later this month (you can hear some of it on their website) and have had a recent tour. When asked why they chose the name The Amazons, the reply was “There’s a book by Arthur Ransome called ‘Swallows and Amazons’; it was a movie set in the Lake District in the 1920s – it’s the most inoffensive, bordering on dull, super not rock n roll book.”

Good luck to them; I quite enjoyed the track I heard from their website. Their tour takes them around Europe and then to Japan and South Korea.When they are in Exeter I might send my son to hear them and gain his opinion - he is nearer their age! You may well know of them already, but if, like me, you didn’t, remember folks, you heard of them here first!

Oh yes, and unlike the ancient warrior race and the crew of ‘Amazon’ they’re all male.

posted via 86.144.170.253 user Paul_Crisp.


message 43453 - 05/07/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: AR Betting Club
Following our success in the Grand National, bets were placed today on a horse called "Mr Lupton" in the 2.55 race at Newmarket. It won at 10-1. (Arthur Lupton was a nephew of Arthur Ransome.)
posted via 81.132.174.53 user Peter_H.
message 43452 - 05/06/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Search Question for Ed Kiser
I've just realised another literary connection is in the Harry Potter books. The explanation of the term is most interesting...I think AR would have approved!
posted via 81.156.112.7 user Magnus.
message 43451 - 05/04/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: Search Question for Ed Kiser
Curiously, the political meaning came up in Double Jeopardy today, asking about the "Never Blaine" Republicans in 1884.
posted via 73.173.62.89 user Jon.
message 43450 - 05/03/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: 2017 Appeal for funding TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Thank you to everyone who has contributed to the Appeal so far. We have raised enough money to cover next year's expenses. If you donated, you will be getting an individual acknowledgement.
The links on TarBoard and All Things Ransome will stay active for the next two weeks for anyone else. Donations can be accepted at any time by going to the link below.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43449 - 05/02/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Search Question for Ed Kiser
"Muggle-Wump" is used in Roald Dahl's book The Twits. That is the only literary connection I can think of.

Much better reading than anything even slightly political.

posted via 81.156.112.7 user Magnus.
message 43448 - 05/01/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Search Question for Ed Kiser
Yes, Boris did go to Eton.
posted via 88.110.70.198 user Mike_Jones.
message 43447 - 05/01/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Search Question for Ed Kiser
I think Boris went to Eton. By a supreme irony, some years ago our TV ran a play about his youth at Oxford, and filmed it at Harrow School.
posted via 141.0.14.145 user awhakim.
message 43446 - 05/01/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Search Question for Ed Kiser
I couldn't get that either, perhaps as Johnson went to such a school (I don't know where he went) he wouldn't read books that featured them.
posted via 95.146.63.150 user MTD.
message 43445 - 05/01/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Search Question for Ed Kiser
Since Hogwarts is a sort of Eton (albeit for girls as well as boys), I fail to see how Johnson could have been too posh for it.
posted via 88.110.70.198 user Mike_Jones.
message 43444 - 04/30/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Search Question for Ed Kiser
The original letter writer in the 'i' commented that Johnson was of course too old to have picked it up from Rowling (and too posh!), so it seems to some that AR's books are for the 'posh'.
posted via 95.146.63.129 user MTD.
message 43443 - 04/30/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Search Question for Ed Kiser
Many thanks Ed. Such a great resource for us all!

Your search confirms what I already suspected.
posted via 95.146.63.129 user MTD.


message 43442 - 04/30/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: Search Question for Ed Kiser
Since the word's Algonquin in origin (title of a tribal leader), and used (historically) in American politics, I'd be surprised if it was used anywhere in The Twelve. I wouldn't be surprised if AR knew the word, but I could only (remotely) imagine it being used (by Capt. Flint) in ML or GN. The letter-writer must have been engaging in "Alternative Facts" :{)#
posted via 73.173.62.89 user Jon.
message 43441 - 04/30/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Search Question for Ed Kiser
Strictly irrelevant on this forum, but according to chapter 4 of the first Harry Potter book, one of Albus Dumbledore's titles is Supreme Mugwump, International Confederation of Wizards.
posted via 109.180.74.119 user eclrh.
message 43440 - 04/30/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Search Question for Ed Kiser
"MUGWUMP" - Scan produced NOTHING. "MUG" - plenty of tea drunk from a MUG. If that word is in any of those twelve books, I would love to hear about that, as it would mean that I have a TYPO and did not spell it right, so my search would not have found it. Tried "WUMP" and again, nothing.

Thanks for asking me to run this search. Glad my collection of TXT files can be of good use.

Typing them in was a Labour of Love, a delightful re-visit with my childhood playmates, who now, some 75 years later, help me to stay young as I return to those adventures of my childhood.

I was easily hooked. First of all, there was a MAP in the front, a map frequently referenced until memorized. Then there were those first three words:

"Roger, aged seven,..."

My Dad's name was ROGER, so that was familiar. I was also SEVEN years old, and quickly identified with Roger. He was my personal representative. I was him, or, he was me - we did things together. I was able to be a part of the group.

They were Good Friends to grow up with. I am grateful they were there for me.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43439 - 04/30/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Search Question for Ed Kiser
Ed - as you may know here in the UK we have an election coming up in June, and the word 'mugwump' has been used and much argument over its meaning and origin.

In the 'i' newspaper a letter was published claiming that our Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson, only knew the word as he was 'posh' and read Arthur Ransome books in his childhood.

So Ed, could you search your database and find out if AR ever used the word?
posted via 95.146.63.129 user MTD.


message 43438 - 04/25/17
From: Duncan, subject: Re: 1974 film 40th Anniversary Edition - Aspect Ratio
I hadn't noticed that - will have to look back at it.

What I did notice is that the picture is wonderful. You can see so much that I've never seen before. And there are some likeable little extras too.
posted via 212.219.3.100 user Duncan.


message 43437 - 04/24/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: 1974 film, Aspect Ratio - it's more complicated!
I was completely lost by your film comments on all the ratios etc.. but it was like reading a physics textbook for the first time and wondering if it would ever make sense. A few pictures would help.

I have taken a scan of the instruction book for my TV. I'm afraid that's the best I can offer.

posted via 141.0.14.147 user awhakim.
message 43436 - 04/23/17
From: Allan_Lang, subject: Re: Movie "The Eagle"
To draw the coincidence out. There was a better, faithful production of Eagle of the 9th in the 70s (BBC TV 1977) which was completely satisfying.

Not the least, Marcus discarding the guise of stoic Roman centurion for that of the ebullient Greek quacksalver The Great Demetrius of Alexandria, Inventor of the Invincible Anodyne, the premier treatment for sore eyes (and yes that is how he always introduces himself, despite Esca's efforts to restraint the overacting)
posted via 101.178.163.14 user Allan_Lang.


message 43435 - 04/22/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: 1974 film, Aspect Ratio - it's more complicated!
I was completely lost by your film comments on all the ratios etc.. but it was like reading a physics textbook for the first time and wondering if it would ever make sense. A few pictures would help.

I remember reading Sutcliff as a young boy -- I remember the book was about a young slave boy? But I could be wrong.

If you are going to the Lake District have fun -- drive carefully the roads are narrow and the hospital is probably outside the golden rule
posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.


message 43434 - 04/22/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: 1974 film, Aspect Ratio - it's more complicated!
I have played my video tape version on my TV. It sets automatically to 'wide', which distorts everything sideways to fill the screen. But if I set the TV ratio to 1.66:1, it shows perfectly, with of course black edges. Is this impossible to achieve with your Blu-Ray?
The tape was the 'double bill' of The Railway Children and S & A.
posted via 141.0.15.33 user awhakim.
message 43433 - 04/22/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: 2014 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
Noticing that the film The Eagle, starring Channng Tatum as Marcus Flavius Aquila, is on UK TV later today, I am reminded that AR is not the only children's author to suffer at be hands of film-makers; Rosemary Sutcliff is also a victim, as are devotees of her The Eagle of the Ninth.
posted via 92.18.219.95 user Mike_Jones.
message 43432 - 04/22/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: 2014 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
Noticing that the film The Eagle, starring Channng Tatum as Marcus Flavius Aquila, is on UK TV later today, I am reminded that AR is not the only children's author to suffer at be hands of film-makers; Rosemary Sutcliff is also a victim, as are devotees of her The Eagle of the Ninth.
posted via 92.18.219.95 user Mike_Jones.
message 43431 - 04/21/17
From: John Richardson, subject: 1974 film, Aspect Ratio - it's more complicated!
OK, just setting off for Holly Howe!

The aspect ratio problem is not quite as I've set out above. The film seems to have been shot at 1.66:1 - so already less widescreen than a 16:9 TV. So that would explain why one ends up with black bars left and right rather than top and bottom.

I'd still question why they chose to lose so much top and bottom by zooming in further than required. And then, comparing it with earlier DVD releases, those are different again: in those, the film appears additionally, to have been squashed.

I'll post again when I've sorted out exactly what's happened.... hopefully linking to some example stills from each version.
posted via 80.5.128.85 user Cantabrigian.


message 43430 - 04/20/17
From: John Richardson, subject: 1974 film 40th Anniversary Edition - Aspect Ratio
Going up to the Lakes for a long weekend, and staying at Holly Howe. Thought I'd take the 1974 film with me, to continue the initiation of a friend into all things Ransome - (she's been very good and read S&A and Swallowdale already....)

So ordered the Blu-Ray of the 40th Anniversary edition which claims to have been 'digitally restored'.

I don't want to be entirely negative: the film itself is, of course, as faithful and charming as ever, and it's great to see it in such high resolution for the first time. And in widescreen - almost - and here comes the rub...

...BUT: The film plays at full screen on a 16:9 1080p TV. This means it's playing at an aspect ratio of 1.78 - i.e. with no black bars top and bottom. Since it was shot in the (usual) cinema AR of 1.66 this means it's been cropped left and right...

...except it's WORSE: Comparing it with an old VHS I have, which had been panned and scanned for broadcast on TV back in the days when they were all 4:3, the Blu-ray (and presumably DVD) on this addition has ALSO lost content top and bottom.

It looks very like someone has taken a copy which had already been pan & scanned (i.e. cropped left and right) for 4:3 display, and then zoomed a 16:9 rectangle into that to return it to widescreen format - i.e. cropped it again (top and bottom).

And THEN, because presumably they could see they were losing so much, they didn't dare to push it to full wide-screen 16:9 (and lose even more top and bottom) and so have left it with (admittedly quite small) black bars left and right.

Nonetheless, this is absolutely the WORST of all possible combinations of choices. Insult is added to injury by the fact that the blu-ray box states the AR to be 1.66:1 - i.e. as originally shot for cinema. Which it palpably isn't!

Has anyone else noticed this, or have more information? It seems such a pity. I wonder if there is now anyway to see the film as originally shot (short of persuading a cinema to screen a print that hasn't been mucked around with)?

Despite all this I'm sure the blu-ray will enhance a weekend at Holly Howe, but Jibbooms and Bobstays - who were the tame galoots who arsed up the Blu-ray authoring to such an extent?

DUFFERS. You should be DROWNED. Or hanged in chains at Execution Dock. The only reason you won't be is we're all too nice around here.
posted via 80.5.128.85 user Cantabrigian.


message 43429 - 04/16/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: A New Jemmerling?
Sounds like the fellow Hulme was actually acting very Dick-as-Big-Six-ish, stalking the guy and building a case. That's an accomplishment on its own.

*Very* much a pity that it was a suspended sentence. I'd have much rather seen a couple hundred hours of community service, at the very least.

Alex
posted via 24.17.138.45 user Pitsligo.


message 43428 - 04/16/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: A New Jemmerling?
Indeed. Rather a pity it was only a suspended sentence, I thought.
posted via 124.171.148.51 user mikefield.
message 43427 - 04/15/17
From: Ross, subject: A New Jemmerling?
A story from Britain about a butterfly collector. Where was Dick when he was needed?

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-friday-edition-1.4071260/british-ex-bodybuilder-convicted-of-killing-rare-butterfly-1.4068416
posted via 184.151.36.184 user rlcossar.


message 43426 - 04/15/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Dot
'Take my camel dear,' said my aunt Dot, as she climbed down from this animal on her return from High Mass.

Rose Macauley

(Seen on Lakeland Cam today
posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.


message 43425 - 04/13/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: 2017 Appeal for funding TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Supported
posted via 184.151.37.224 user rlcossar.
message 43424 - 04/12/17
From: dave Thewlis, subject: A new book about women pirates
Just published at the beginning of this month. Here's a Smithsonian article - an interview with the author and a link to the book on Amazon:

The Swashbuckling History of Women Pirates
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43423 - 04/12/17
From: Peter Wagner, subject: Re: 2017 Appeal for funding TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Done. Thanks for all your efforts. Keep up the good work.

posted via 94.250.228.202 user PeterW.
message 43422 - 04/12/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: 2017 Appeal for funding TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Done. Worth every piece of eight!
posted via 88.110.73.4 user Mike_Jones.
message 43421 - 04/11/17
From: Allan_Lang, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
Quite possible for Ted and Mary to meet before, or even during, the early years of WW1. There were 9 cruisers on the Australian station in 1910. These had reduced to 4 in 1914, plus another 3 forming the New Zealand Division of the RN.

Less likely during WWI.
There were 9 Cruisers on the Australian Station in 1910, but they had all returned to England by 1913 (or would never return, being scrapped in Australia)

The 4 cruisers in Australian waters in 1914 (The Australia Station was transferred to RAN control in 1911, and phased out in 1913) were 2 new "Town" Class Australian cruisers HMAS Sydney & Melbourne, "Challenger" Class HMAS Encounter and "Perlorus" class HMAS Pioneer (both transferred to Australia in 1914).
The NZ Ships were 2 more "Pelorus": Psyche & Pyramus and the NZ operated "Pearl" class Philomel (as a training ship)

Now Ted could have been a "loaner" RN officer to Australia or New Zealand, but all those ships were scrapped in Australia after 1918, and only three made it out of the Indian or Pacific during the war.
Philomel, which served the early war years in the Mediterranean.
Sydney & Melbourne, which didn't reach English waters until late 1916, which is getting perilously close to John's presumed conception.

All in all, I favour a prewar meeting
posted via 101.178.163.206 user Allan_Lang.


message 43420 - 04/11/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
" since Adam was in short pants" Oh, I am sure its been longer than that, I am really not that old.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43419 - 04/11/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
Quite possible for Ted and Mary to meet before, or even during, the early years of WW1. There were 9 cruisers on the Australian station in 1910. These had reduced to 4 in 1914, plus another 3 forming the New Zealand Division of the RN.

I know we think of ships and their crews being fully employed in wartime, but they still spent a lot of time in port undergoing routine maintenance and allowing plenty of shore-going opportunities for the officers and men.
posted via 86.150.244.36 user MartinH.


message 43418 - 04/10/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: 2017 Appeal for funding TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Done! And I echo Mike Field.
posted via 95.146.63.38 user MTD.
message 43417 - 04/10/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Bob Blackett was Captain Flint's Age
I had in mind the "candle-grease incident" in SD where Titty hears that the Great-Aunt "made mother cry" and Jim said "Bob would have liked them as they are". I think that Molly and Bob would both get the blame for their wild girls. Though if the Blackett family was local, they might have been mentioned occasionally in other books as they would be uncles or aunts to the Amazons? But perhaps one uncle was enough.


posted via 203.96.138.35 user hugo.


message 43416 - 04/10/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: 2017 Appeal for funding TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Done. And thanks to Adam and everyone else concerned for their ongoing work in keeping these sites running for us.
posted via 124.171.148.51 user mikefield.
message 43415 - 04/10/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
"...since Adam was in short pants"

Short fig-leaves?

(Sorry.)
posted via 124.171.148.51 user mikefield.


message 43414 - 04/10/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
With Germany holding a large colony in New Guinea, I would be very surprised if there were no RN activity around our shores. Also, Fremantle has been a strong RAN base, serving the Indian Ocean, since Adam was in short pants.
posted via 121.213.0.220 user David.
message 43413 - 04/10/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
Perhaps Mary's father was working in England and had brought his family over (some sort of post at the High Commission?). They stayed when war broke out and the dashing young First Lieutenant saw her as good breeding material at a thé dansant at the Ritz. Such a good breeder that after five children Ted's only hope of effective birth control was a posting to Hong Kong.
posted via 88.110.73.4 user Mike_Jones.
message 43412 - 04/10/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Bob Blackett was Captain Flint's Age
Perhaps when Molly married Bob she "married beneath her" into a family that was not in the local gentry, and this was the reason for the Great-Aunt’s disapproval of Bob?

Sorry if I'm forgetting something obvious but do the books say the GA disapproved of Bob?
posted via 109.180.74.119 user eclrh.


message 43411 - 04/10/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: 2017 Appeal for funding TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Last year we were able to use our saved funds to avoid asking TarBoard and All Things Ransome users to contribute. However, we have used up our reserves and so we must come back and ask for your financial assistance again this year.
We are holding a limited time appeal for funds to maintain our All Things Ransome and TarBoard website domains alive and to pay the operating expenses to our website hosting service while still leaving us with a reserve to cover any future payments. Our accounts are available for inspection on the All Things Ransome site.
This year we are again asking you to generously donate a few pounds, dollars, or any other currency to keep the bank accounts topped up so we can keep All Things Ransome and TarBoard going.
Once more we are using PayPal this allows you to pay over the internet through your PayPal account or by credit card through PayPal. There are no additional fees to you, the site is secure and we will not keep any records of your details to maintain your privacy. To make a payment, please use this Appeal link which can also be found on the All Things Ransome site and the main page of TarBoard.
Contributions to the All Things Ransome Association in furtherance of its goals are welcome; please note however that the Association is not tax-exempt or a charitable organization in any jurisdiction.


posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43410 - 04/09/17
From: Allan_Lang, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
That may have been me, but my conclusion was it made Mary almost a decade older, on the basis that AFAIK there were no RN ships visiting Australia during the war years.
But John was clearly born during WWI, so a postwar marriage is out.
Which leaves Ted serving on a RN Cruiser on the Australia Station between 1905 (when the last one arrived) and 1910-1913 (during which time they gradually returned to England).
That leads to an 18 year old Mary meeting and marrying Ted in Sydney during that period. (Later is not possible as c.1914 Ted will be too busy to go camping with Mary before John is born.)
posted via 101.178.163.14 user Allan_Lang.
message 43409 - 04/09/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Bob Blackett was Captain Flint's Age
Re Bob Blackett and the suggestion that Bob was a school friend of Jim; Mrs Swainson says of the Walkers (SD9) "who are the others ..... they don’t look to me like Blacketts, nor yet like Turners" implying that Bob Blackett was from a local family.

Perhaps when Molly married Bob she "married beneath her" into a family that was not in the local gentry, and this was the reason for the Great-Aunt’s disapproval of Bob? I have a couple of examples several generations back in my family; one marrying the family maid and another remarrying to the family groom.
posted via 202.154.149.211 user hugo.


message 43408 - 04/09/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: 2016 Movie
I have wondered (though not when I read it first!) what else John and Nancy discussed when they went off to investigate Leading Lights (SA11)! But although the "elders" in the later books would be well into their teens, the "brats" (to use the term in WH) were not, and the last book GN is largely about the younger ones in the shore party, particularly Dick and Roger!

Even if there were what the local library calls YA or Young Adult books in the thirties, I don’t think child readers of the series would have wanted the later ones to become YA books about the four "elders" (John & Susan plus Nancy & Peggy).

posted via 202.154.149.211 user hugo.


message 43407 - 04/08/17
From: Jock, subject: Conflicting objectives (was: Ransome, Shanties and Piracy by the BBC)
I understand that Eshkeri and Lewis have now entered into into a post hoc financial arrangement, though, sadly, Lewis's name will not be added to the credits. Yes, I agree with you completely about the music in the 1974 film.

Moving on to the the 2016 film. I found it very difficult to watch end to end, because there were so many times when I just wanted to stop, not because the story departed so much from the original, but because, again and again, the film seemed to be diverging from the spirit of Ransome's book. In the end I did seeing the film in its entirety, but only by seeing it in three or four separate sessions.

There is a good review of the 2016 film on the video blog Projector which I thought was very even-handed.

posted via 178.43.129.84 user Jock.
message 43406 - 04/08/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Ransome, Shanties and Piracy by the BBC
A propos of this, 'Grammarly' has just issued a piece about what to do if your work is plagiarised. (I don't know how relevant the strategies might be in this case.)
posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.
message 43405 - 04/08/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Ransome, Shanties and Piracy by the BBC
Well, I don't know whether I was listening to the Sailor's Prayer on that clip you linked to or not, but I'm afraid I wasn't impressed by it, or at least by the arrangement. If the part of that little snatch I listened to is typical of the music in the rest of the film, then I guess that's another reason I'm not sorry to not have seen it.

Compare that music of Eshkeri's (plagiarised or not, which is another issue) with the music -- and especially its use of shanties -- composed by Wilfred Josephs for the 1974 version.

posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.
message 43404 - 04/08/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
To obtain possible evidence for Ted Walker's age I have checked at what age a number of officers who would have been his approximate contemporaries were promoted Captain.
Phillip Vian 40
Bernard Warburton-Lee 40
Lord Mountbatten 37
Andrew Cunningham 37
Henry Harwood 41
Frederick Wake-Walker 41

The first four I picked because they all had reputations as destroyer officers and Ted was serving in a destroyer in Malta (as a Commander in Command?)

As both Mouthbatten and Cunningham were high fliers, who were both ultimately made First Sea Lord, it looks as if 40 was an approximate age for officers to be promoted Captain during the "between the Wars" period. This would be his approximate age at the time of WD and SW, giving a birth date of 1892 give or take a year or so.

This does raise the question of what post Captain Walker would be taking up. The main Naval establishment in the area was the Boys Training establishment, HMS Ganges, but that would have been under the command of a fairly senior Captain. Could he have been in a post planning potential sites for wartime bases in the event of hostilities? Coastal forces were based around several of the Essex estuaries and the RN Patrol Service depot established at a holiday camp in Great Yarmouth.
posted via 109.150.85.9 user MartinH.


message 43403 - 04/08/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Grand National entry
"Didn't I tell you?" (Pigeon Post, p. 160)
posted via 81.132.174.125 user Peter_H.
message 43402 - 04/08/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Grand National entry
Congratulations to the Tarboard tipster. Arthur's horse won!
posted via 141.0.14.217 user awhakim.
message 43401 - 04/08/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
...there is no reason to assume she's that young; if they met in Australia, it's unlikely there'd be more than a couple of years difference in their ages.

It could be that Ted and Mary met in England. Perhaps she returned to UK to England for some reason; possibly family or educational.

I believe the RN frowned on junior officers marrying too soon.

That was the case. I think the suggestion was that officers should not marry until they were senior Lieutenants. Knowing how poor the pay scales were most probably could not afford a wife and family!

posted via 109.150.85.9 user MartinH.


message 43400 - 04/07/17
From: Jock, subject: Ransome, Shanties and Piracy by the BBC
Ransome's references to sea shanties kindled my lifetime interest in the subject. In 1992, I came across the Polish sea shanty group, the Cztery Refy, in Swanage of all places! I discovered that, while in England sea shanties are usually sung in the back rooms of pubs, in Poland shanties are listened to by hundreds (and sometimes thousands) of people who attend shanty concerts and festivals all around the country.

Ransome's friend, John Masefield, played an important role in the process whereby the shanty did not die, but evolved and moved from the deck of a ship to the floor of a pub or concert hall.

In 1996, I acted as the Refy's minder at the International Festival of the Sea in Bristol, which was attended by some 100 artists from all over the world. Here, I had the privilege of meeting the remarkable ex Royal Navy submariner and shantyman Tom Lewis, an acquaintance that was renewed in Poland at the Iława shanty festival a few months later.

Imagine my amazement to discover that Ilan Eshkeri, the composer of the music to the new S&A film, 'borrowed' Tom's Sailor's Prayer and that this 'borrowing' took place without any credit to Tom whatsoever.

posted via 178.43.134.91 user Jock.
message 43399 - 04/07/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
For that matter, does that scenario --Bob as Jim's friend, marrying Jim's sister-- parallel a fantasy AR might have had with the Collingwoods, thus placing Nancy and Peggy in the position of AR's fantasy, might-have-been daughters?

And yes, that's impossibly wild speculation, but since the thought occured to me...

Alex
posted via 24.17.138.45 user Pitsligo.


message 43398 - 04/07/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
"Molly & Jim Turner and Bob Blackett climbed the Matterhorn in 1901 (SD). Jim would then have been been 11 or so if born in 1890 but I thought perhaps the Turners and Bob were then somewhat older, perhaps teenagers?"

I suppose I always imagined that Bob and Jim were school friends. Bob came home with Jim on holiday, where Jim introduced him to his sister, Molly, who was enough of a tomboy to join them on their Matterhorn Expedition (Nancy and Peggy must have gotten it from both sides) --and things progressed from there.

Might that push everyone's ages up a few years, which would fit more with Commander Walker's career?

Could the Oxford boat race clues be shuffled around to make that fit?

Alex
posted via 24.17.138.45 user Pitsligo.


message 43397 - 04/07/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
Ted Walker is a Commander in WD. And the likely youngest during SA for Mary Walker may be 32-34, but there is no reason to assume she's that young; if they met in Australia, it's unlikely there'd be more than a couple of years difference in their ages. And he certainly wouldn't have been on his first cruise when they were married. I believe the RN frowned on junior officers marrying too soon.
posted via 73.173.62.89 user Jon.
message 43396 - 04/07/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
Re Captain Flint’s age, Molly & Jim Turner and Bob Blackett climbed the Matterhorn in 1901 (SD). Jim would then have been been 11 or so if born in 1890 but I thought perhaps the Turners and Bob were then somewhat older, perhaps teenagers?

And there are no clues as to who is the older, Molly or Jim? Probably Molly?

John Walker is supposed to be about 12, so Mary could be 32 to 34. But Ted Walker who is a Commodore or Captain is rather older than Mary.

posted via 203.96.134.67 user hugo.


message 43395 - 04/06/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
National Union of Journalists. I used to be a member. Some of them were a bit weird.
posted via 81.132.174.125 user Peter_H.
message 43394 - 04/06/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
I would put Mrs Walker at about 32 to 34 based on marriage age and children - did someone not once say cold have met when UK Fleet in Australia?

On Beatles help Album the semaphore spells NUJ - weird stuff
posted via 165.91.13.72 user Mcneacail.


message 43393 - 04/05/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
I *like* that bit of deduction!

As I see it, that age fits well with his general demeanor, too.

Alex
posted via 24.17.138.45 user Pitsligo.


message 43392 - 04/05/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: Donald Campbell anniversary
Thank you for posting this and the link to Stanford's Blue Bird. I had not heard it since singing it at school. His Magnificat in G was always a favourite to sing in the days when I had a voice!

Only noted your posting today when looking back for something. Did actually remember the 50th of Donald Campbell, and the BBC News film; was interested to see how the children's programme 'Blue Peter' covered it as they were following Campbell's attempt and had had him on the programme shortly beforehand.

posted via 86.144.212.136 user Paul_Crisp.


message 43391 - 04/05/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Captain Flint's Age
For the sake of something to do I have been pondering on Captain Flint’s age. Of course this is not given in the books, but looking for clues, the only ones I could find were: carving Ben Gunn’s name more than thirty years previously, and Oxford winning the Boat Race when CF grabbed a policeman’s helmet and got himself arrested.

The name was probably carved prior to 1901, memories of exact dates in childhood can be unreliable, but it could be the same year they climbed the Matterhorn. Is it reasonable to think of CF as ten in that year, but perhaps younger?

Oxford won the Boat Race in 1905, and then annually from 1909 to 13. If the information in ML is taken as correct, then CF was up during at least one of those years. 1905 seems too early, so 1909 onwards could be a good bet.

As CF “chucked Oxford before Oxford made up its mind to chuck him”, he probably left at the end of his first or second year, possibly after very poor exam results. So he could have gone up in 1907 or as late as 1912. The later dates seem less likely based on his carving and mountain climbing dates.

Based on this flimsy evidence I suggest that Master James Turner was born in 1890, give or take a year. Placing his age as about 40 in S&A.

posted via 109.150.85.9 user MartinH.


message 43390 - 04/03/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Susan - Nurse or Torturer?
Scarum, not sacrum! The curse of predictive text!
posted via 88.110.86.69 user Mike_Jones.
message 43389 - 04/02/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Susan - Nurse or Torturer?
As AR points out somewhere, it was because of Susan's reliability that the Swallows were allowed to go off alone and have their adventures. Her treatment of burns and scalds would have accorded with AR's understanding of what that treatment should be.

Mrs Blackett appears to have had a lot less faith in her harum-sacrum daughters.
posted via 88.110.86.69 user Mike_Jones.


message 43388 - 04/02/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Susan - Nurse or Torturer?
As AR points out somewhere, it was because of Susan's reliability that the Swallows were allowed to go off alone and have their adventures. Her treatment of burns and scalds would have accorded with AR's understanding of what that treatment should be.

Mrs Blackett appears to have had a lot less faith in her harum-sacrum daughters.
posted via 88.110.86.69 user Mike_Jones.


message 43387 - 04/02/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Cambridge Bias Due To ML
I think Miss Lee and her father had been salting money away in Swiss bank accounts over the years, and when things turned Maoist in China she turned up in Europe and bought Beckfoot.

The marmalade always predisposed me in favour of Oxford, though it's not actually why I ended up there. Oh, and OUP had a great range of children's books.
posted via 88.110.86.69 user Mike_Jones.


message 43386 - 04/02/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Cambridge Bias Due To ML
It must be that I'm afraid of the school mistress image! She might put me in detention!

I always felt slightly sorry for Missee Lee, denied the opportunity to follow her scholarly ambitions and having to return as a reluctant pirate.
posted via 109.155.179.201 user MartinH.


message 43385 - 04/02/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Cambridge Bias Due To ML
WHAT?! This is precisely the reason I cheer for Oxford! I would rather align myself with Captain Flint than Missee Lee. I still see her an an 'enemy'.
posted via 81.156.112.7 user Magnus.
message 43384 - 04/02/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Cambridge Bias Due To ML
I've just been watching the Oxford v Cambridge University boat races, and, as usual, I was cheering for Cambridge. Having attended neither university I can think of no other good reason for this than indoctrination by Missee Lee all those years ago.
posted via 109.155.179.201 user MartinH.
message 43383 - 04/02/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
It seems clear from SA chapter XVI, The Birthday Party, that the two mothers had met for the first time when Mrs. Blackett called on Mrs. Walker at Jacksons farm. Mrs. W describes Mrs. B as jolly, another element missing from the new film.
posted via 88.110.86.69 user Mike_Jones.
message 43382 - 04/02/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Grand National entry
The Grand National race takes place next Saturday (8 April), and one of the fancied horses is called 'One For Arthur', trained by Peter Scudamore and currently 14-1. Worth a small flutter? Grab a chance . . .
posted via 81.132.174.125 user Peter_H.
message 43381 - 04/02/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
I'd forgotten about that!

I do wonder if AR had trouble with what to do with his characters when they got older, the plots would need more than just sailing and camping.
posted via 95.146.184.239 user MTD.


message 43380 - 04/02/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
Seems a reasonable theory, I've always wondered if the Walker and Blackett/Tuner adults knew each other before the children met.
posted via 95.146.184.239 user MTD.
message 43379 - 04/02/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Susan - Nurse or Torturer?
Standard treatement in my childhood in the 1960s, though I always thought it strange and would make more sense to use something cold!
posted via 95.146.184.239 user MTD.
message 43378 - 04/01/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
A Jim and Mary episode could rank with he missing chapter from GN, in which John and Nancy go off for the day together.
posted via 88.110.86.69 user Mike_Jones.
message 43377 - 04/01/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Susan - Nurse or Torturer?
According to the Dermatology Clinic at UAMS, it is very important to immediately cool the skin after receiving a burn. This helps stop the damage from the burning process. Putting butter or other greasy ointments on a burn may actually make things worse, since the grease will slow the release of heat from the skin. This causes more damage from the retained heat.

The best way to release heat from the skin is with cool water. Ice and ice water are too harsh and may further aggravate already damaged skin. Cool water helps to gently remove heat from the area.

To learn more about the personalized care provided by our doctors using state-of-the-art equipment and technology, please visit our medical services section.
posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.


message 43376 - 04/01/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Susan - Nurse or Torturer?
The idea of dunking people in salt water after burns dates from the Battle of Britain when I believe they noticed that pilots who were burnt did better if dunked in the channel instead of landed in Hampstead, nothing against Hampstead - not likely to drown except in the tea.

Although in MASH - the US Doctors ally against the UK dr who gave everyone a grain of morphine and a cuppa.

OS grid reference TQ265855
London borough
Camden
Ceremonial county Greater London
Region
London
Country England
Sovereign state United Kingdom
Post town LONDON
Postcode district NW3
Dialling code 020
Police Metropolitan
Fire London
Ambulance London
EU Parliament London
UK Parliament
Hampstead and Kilburn
London Assembly
Barnet and Camde
posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.


message 43375 - 04/01/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
One does just wonder: a fancy-free Jim Turner in his houseboat and the lively Australian Mary Walker with her husband on the other side of the world.

WASH YOUR MOUTH OUT WITH VEGEMITE LEFT IN THE SUN FOR 3 WEEKS IN THE DESERT
posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.


message 43374 - 04/01/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: Susan - Nurse or Torturer?
Remember, too, that Mother told Titty (in SA, as Man Friday),
“Weren’t you scalded?” said Robinson Crusoe.
“Badly,” said Man Friday, “but I buttered the places that hurt most.”

posted via 69.140.32.156 user Jon.
message 43373 - 04/01/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Susan - Nurse or Torturer?
I believe that was the "correct" treatment for minor burns back in the day. Nowadays it is recognised that cold water on a burn is the best treatment.

Another bit of medical misinformation comes in Winter Holiday when the doctor recommends that you rub frostbite with snow.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 43372 - 04/01/17
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Susan - Nurse or Torturer?
Having just listened to PP, and hearing again Susan advise Roger to put butter on a burn, it got me wondering: Is that good medical advice? Wouldn't Roger be frying himself? Are there any other examples of Susan's perhaps dubious medical tips?
posted via 86.152.148.207 user Tiss_Flower.
message 43371 - 03/30/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: DVD regional codes re 2016 S&A movie
PG is a strange category. On Tuesday my 5 and 8 year old grandchildren enjoyed (more than I did) two PG films: SA and Beauty and the Beast. I suppose they both had happy endings!
posted via 88.110.81.30 user Mike_Jones.
message 43370 - 03/30/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: DVD regional codes re 2016 S&A movie
Mine, bought in the UK, specifies: 'Region 2'

Incidentally, I see that it also has the BBFC 'PG' symbols, i.e. that Parental Guidance is needed for viewing by a child under 12, and a warning of "mild threat, infrequent mild violence".
posted via 81.132.174.125 user Peter_H.


message 43369 - 03/30/17
From: John Wilson, subject: DVD regional codes re 2016 S&A movie
Re playing DVDs the problem is the DVD zoning (not the format), designed with new-release films in mind. North America (US & Canada) is Region 1 while (Western) Europe is Region 2 etc; some DVDS are multi-zone sometimes called Region 0. You can convert DVD players to multizone. In New Zealand DVD players are (legally) advertised and sold as multizone, and when we got a player which was not multizone some years ago the retailer sent it back to the Auckland distributor for modifying (DVD players and similar items here are generally Japanese brands though possibly made in Malaysia or Thailand etc). While Oz, NZ and Latin America are Region 4, most DVDs sold here are American or British (some of the BBC DVDs of Dad’s Army I have are labelled on the back “Regions 2 + 4”). Can someone say what zones the 2016 S&A movie is for; generally low down on the back of the case).


posted via 203.96.143.54 user hugo.
message 43368 - 03/30/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
See my comments on DVD zoning (as new subject).
posted via 203.96.143.54 user hugo.
message 43367 - 03/29/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
I still want to see the new movie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've decided to approach it like Peter Duck or Missee Lee as a great made up tale created by the adventure loving kids as an adventure story on the lake.
posted via 184.151.37.97 user rlcossar.


message 43366 - 03/29/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
I wasn't denying Captain Flint his needs, just remarking on the parallel being drawn with AR.

One does just wonder: a fancy-free Jim Turner in his houseboat and the lively Australian Mary Walker with her husband on the other side of the world.
posted via 88.110.81.30 user Mike_Jones.


message 43365 - 03/29/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
One cannot expect Capn Flint to be a monk - one assumes that he had his needs met to use an old English expression.

Mrs Blackett and the girls were terrible - any mother and 2 daughters from a competent English Boarding School Upper form would have been better speakers


posted via 128.194.94.56 user Mcneacail.


message 43364 - 03/29/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
One cannot expect Capn Flint to be a monk - one assumes that he had his needs met to use an old English expression.

Mrs Blackett and the girls were terrible - any mother and 2 daughters from a competent English Boarding School Upper form would have been better speakers


posted via 128.194.94.56 user Mcneacail.


message 43363 - 03/28/17
From: Mike Jpnes, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
Only one piece of duff casting? I would add Mrs. Blackett to the list for the new film, which I played on DVD for the grandchildren this morning, at their request.

I get more irritated each time I see it, though I liked the shopkeeper's insinuation that Captain Flint might have a woman in Leningrad; presumably the scriptwriter had done some research into AR's personal life.

At least it was a less deafening experience than Beauty and the Beast in the cinema this afternoon.
posted via 88.110.83.219 user Mike_Jones.


message 43362 - 03/28/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
John – I agree. A tradition seems to have developed whereby every attempt at a Swallows & Amazons film contains a really duff piece of casting. In the 1974 film (in other respects excellent) it was Ronald Fraser. This time it is Kelly Macdonald. The next filmed attempt is due in 2058 and who will it be? One of the very few compensations of no longer being alive is that I personally will not have to sit through it!
posted via 81.132.174.125 user Peter_H.
message 43361 - 03/28/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
Ed:

I got the S and A DVD fro England, you cannot play it in a DVD player, but a computer will play it ok. I watched it without trouble on a Dell Computer.

It was quite cheap from Amazon UK - less than taking my daughters to a movie.

My real bully beef is the Scottish Writer made the mother Scottish - there are many female Australian Actors in the UK who could have played that part with more verve and style than the actor used. One is not supposed to use a word like Frump on this august board so I shall not, but...

John

posted via 128.194.94.53 user Mcneacail.


message 43360 - 03/27/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
Alan - How well I remember that TV link to permit me to "BE THERE" and never leave Florida. My mode of speech was intentionally kept free of certain heavy local dialect in view of who that audience was. I have done broadcasting on the radio in my younger days, working my way through college, and the guide there was "sound like Walter Cronkite" as that was hopefully a General American dialect, suitable for non-USA ears. I am glad you folks were able to understand me enough to get by, as hopefully that was my deliberate intent.

As for the DVD, for some fantastic reason, a DVD that works in England does not necessarily work in the USA. This S&A movie is a British product, available in the British DVD, but as for it ever making it across The Pond to be available in USA compatible format DVD, perhaps that is a long wait.

British Adult actors, I can hear and understand them, such as "FOLYE'S WAR" (an excellent police mystery TV series) It is the YOUNGER set like in Harry Potter and now in S&A that fail to land properly on my ears.

The version I was watching was on YOUTUBE, and as someone pointed out, it was probably an illegal copy, with poor reproduction of the sound which would garble the words even more. I did see a TRAILER version on YOUTUBE, and it being official, that sound seemed to be proper, and glory be, I was ABLE to HEAR them considerably better (if not perfectly). The lost of understanding therefore I believe to be the poor quality of the sound reproduction, but, that is all I had access to. My VCR cassette tape (this goes back quite some years) of the 1974 version was quite understandable for the most part. Meanwhile, this new S&A is just not within my grasp. Humph...
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43359 - 03/27/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
The problem may be modern sloppy acting.

In many ways, it may be modern, better acting. Although I always thought that Nancy would be more likely to used middle class "received pronunciation" than the regional accent she appears (from the trailer) to have been given in the film.

As for rapid cross-cutting, that's the modern fashion. It probably started in Hollywood.

Maybe in Hollywood, but really, I suspect that it's from TV and video games. For contemporary children, not for the likes of us.
posted via 90.254.43.134 user PeterC.


message 43358 - 03/27/17
From: Harry Miller, subject: Re: Bohemia in London
Thanks Andy. I agree. The passage is pure Ransome and the painting is perfect.
posted via 70.54.140.153 user dreadnaught.
message 43357 - 03/27/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
I've now had a look at my DVD, and Ed, you're quite right. The sound quality is very poor, and most characters are doing 'regional' accents, which makes it more difficult. But my 'official' DVD does have subtitles.
posted via 141.0.15.35 user awhakim.
message 43356 - 03/26/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: 2014 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
Ed, Where did you access the newest version? Was it in a movie theater?
posted via 184.151.63.226 user rlcossar.
message 43355 - 03/26/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
"Separated by a common language." But Ed, when you addressed the TARS Literary Weekend audience by video link, we had no difficulty understanding you. The problem may be modern sloppy acting.
I have the official DVD, but haven't watched it yet. Obviously time to get it out and see what it's like. As for rapid cross-cutting, that's the modern fashion. It probably started in Hollywood.
posted via 141.0.15.35 user awhakim.
message 43354 - 03/25/17
From: Jock, subject: Re: 2014 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
Ed, Do you mean the 2016 "Swallows and Amazons"? When I saw this, I had many problems with the new film.

The transfer to YouTube is technically incompetent and, illegal to boot.

I have seen the film courtesy of iTunes, Apple's platform for selling digital content. The sound is somewhat better than on YouTube. The other problems remain.

Time to reread the book!
posted via 178.43.117.5 user Jock.


message 43353 - 03/25/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: 2014 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
1974 version of S&A movie was quite understandable. The sound quality of the latest version just "swallowed" the sounds to the level of just noise, with an occasional word slipping by as understandable. Maybe ENGLISH as spoken in the Mother Country has shifted that far during these past few decades. When the 1974 version first came out, I was able to obtain a video TAPE to play on my VCR in a mode compatible with US requirements. That tape is to me a precious possession.

Perhaps the process of transferring the video from one medium to another caused the quality of the sound to become a bit damaged. I saw a YOUTUBE version. This problem did not seem to hurt the 1974 version on YOUTUBE however. The sound this time seemed to be just a NOISE, and it is quite natural to say that "A NOISE ANNOYS".

I also noticed in this new version that the camera action was very much UP CLOSE with very brief snap shifting quickly to the next glimpse. I was seemingly always shifting my point of view to the next point of interest, without the time it takes to discover just what that point might be, only to have the scene flip again. It was irritating. In real life, we quite often have out eyes flicking back at forth, from one point of interest to another with only brief moments on any one point, but for the camera to act like my eye movement was tiresome and irritating. I'll not be making the mistake of trying to view this new version any time soon. Much better to go read the book. That has always been a delightful experience.
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43352 - 03/25/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: 2014 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
Ed, have you seen the 1974 movie of S&A? Were you able to understand that? I haven't seen the new one so I can't do an actual comparison, but it could well be that the 1974 movie holds closer to "BBC" english which isn't terribly difficult for most Americans to understand. If you haven't seen the 1974 version yet, there's a link to it on YouTube from the Media Vault page in All Things Ransome.

Dave Thewlis
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43351 - 03/24/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: 2014 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
Sorry 'bout that, I got the gentleman's name incorrectly spelled, as it should have been "GABRIEL WOOLF" - mea culpa. I have all twelve of his recordings, both the early set of cassette tapes, and then a later issue of CD recordings, a valuable part of my Ransome collection. I especially enjoyed his rendition of certain local dialects, like Jacky, or the Eelman, or the Scots in GN?. But all quite understandable. Maybe it is the difference between his words, the words of an adult, and the dialect spoken by the children in S&A.
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.
message 43350 - 03/24/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: 2014 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
Being an American, living in Kentucky, I was delighted to finally find an access to view the Movie of S&A 2014. Eager to finally get to see it, I found there was a problem similar to watching the HARRY POTTER movies, in that I only caught a word or two here and there, but mainly, was unable to understand the Accent the characters used, as being so unfamiliar to my own Southern American Dialect. HARRY POTTER on DVD gave me SUBTITLES in ENGLISH, so I was finally able to understand what was happening, but with no convenient translations into ENGLISH, I finally just had to give up on watching S&A as not being able to comprehend their words. If this comes out on DVD, and it has to be the AMERICAN style of DVD encoding, then maybe that will have ENGLISH subtitles, and then I can follow the events. Until such becomes available, and that may be never, I will just have to let this one slide on by, unviewed. Not happy about this, but the words spoken, especially by the children, are just not received. I got left out on this one, much to my disappointment. Harry Potter saved me by giving me subtitles; will S&A eventually do the same? "...a common people, separated only by our common language." Heard that somewhere... Now I understand. It is apparently not all that common after all, but at least, HERE on this Forum, we have the written word, not bothering with differences in pronunciation. I tried to watch, but it just did not work for me. Yet the spoken Ransome books by Wolfe seem to be quite comprehensible and a pleasure to experience.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]

posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43349 - 03/23/17
From: Andy, subject: Bohemia in London
I'm re-reading this (I've an October 1907 American edition) and loved the bit on coffee-stalls: it's so Ransome.

"There is something gypsyish about coffee-stalls, something very delightful. Since those days I've known many ... but there is none I have loved so well as this small untidy box on the Embankment. That was a joyous night when for the first time the keeper of the stall recognised my face and honoured me with talk as a regular customer. More famous men have seldom made me prouder. It meant something, this vanity of being able to add "Evening, Bill!" to my order of coffee and cake. Coffee and cake cost a penny each and are very good. The coffee is not too hot to drink, and the cake would satisfy an ogre."

...Or a Roger, I suppose.

But here's a thing: the Japanese artist mentioned later in the book is Yoshio Markino. And here's his painting of a (the?) coffee-stall, on the Embankment, dating to about the same time.

I'd like to think it's not a coincidence.

Andy
posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.


message 43348 - 03/21/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Islands Re: Not as thought/remembered
Ling Holme is far bigger than I envisage Cormorant Island. A small rocky island with a couple of bleached trees on it (from the cormorant droppings).
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43347 - 03/20/17
From: Duncan, subject: Re: Not as thought/remembered
That's the island that the Altounyans called Cormorant Island. But it's tiny. I don't think it's that much like the description. Most people seemed to think it was Silver Holme on Windermere (which is nothing like Cormorant Island now, but used to be less wooded when the cormorants lived there. I've often wondered about Ling Holme (but only because I'm obsessed with Wild Cat Island being Ramp Holme!!) Obviously that would have needed to be less wooded too! (This picture is Ling Holme by the way)

[ Image ]

posted via 212.219.3.8 user Duncan.


message 43346 - 03/20/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: Not as thought/remembered
That's because it's on Coniston, just South of Peel Island. Went right by it on the Swallows and Amazons cruise.
posted via 69.140.32.156 user Jon.
message 43345 - 03/20/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Not as thought/remembered
Cormorant Island is always an anomaly -- even as a child it struck me as strange and not real.

I do not remember seeing it on my sailing on Windermere.

posted via 165.91.13.85 user Mcneacail.


message 43344 - 03/20/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Not as thought/remembered
Cormorant Island is always an anomaly -- even as a child it struck me as strange and not real.

I do not remember seeing it on my sailing on Windermere.

posted via 165.91.13.85 user Mcneacail.


message 43343 - 03/18/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Not as thought/remembered
Have you re-read a book and discovered that something is not as you had thought it was?

I was checking the passage in S&A when Titty and Roger land on Cormorant Island to search for the "pirates' treasure" and was surprised to find the island was mainly covered in large rocks, and it was difficult to find a safe landing place. It is long time since I read the book, but in my mind Cormorant Island was mainly shingle and small pebbles. I wonder what else I've had wrong all these years?
posted via 81.140.174.146 user MartinH.


message 43342 - 03/08/17
From: David Maxwell, subject: Re: Suzie G. Heel
Thanks to all for the information!
posted via 97.78.238.94 user DavidMaxwell.
message 43341 - 03/08/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Suzie G. Heel
I found a rather sparse genealogy website (which focusses on celebrities) which indicates that Tabitha's daughter from her first marriage to Frederick Lewis, Hazel Vale, was the mother of the author Suzie Heel and the illustrator Sally Stride of the book "Once Upon a Magical Christmas Eve" which has the Ransome relationship on the cover, obviously hoping to cash in.

[ Image ]

posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 43340 - 03/08/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Suzie G. Heel
Tabitha married John Lewis a dockworker in 1934; they had a son and daughter. Tabitha fell out with her father in 1942 when she offered to sell him his library of books (inherited from Ivy), and as he did not reply she sold them to a bookseller for the bargain price of £25. He thought that she should have offered them back to him for free! From I think the 2008 biography "The Last Englishman" by Roland Chambers. Not a happy family relationship.
posted via 202.154.145.35 user hugo.
message 43339 - 03/07/17
From: David Maxwell, subject: Suzie G. Heel
I've found an interesting book by a Suzie Heel, a great granddaughter of Arthur Ransome. Did Tabitha get married and have kids? Maybe I'm just forgetting things now but that does not sound familiar to me. Can someone enlighten me on this?
posted via 97.78.238.94 user DavidMaxwell.
message 43338 - 03/06/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands and two more
Three million cheers! Jolly well done, Dave.
posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.
message 43337 - 03/05/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands and two more
THREE new videos... no idea where that missing "T" got to.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43336 - 03/05/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands and two more
hree new Youtube videos were added to the Media Vault of All Things Ransome today: Britain's Lost Waterlands: Escape to Swallows and Amazons Country; BBC - The Secret Life of Books Series 2 (2015) Part 6: Swallows and Amazons; and the full 1974 film of Swallows and Amazons.

posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43335 - 03/04/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Heading for the Broads district
Ah but did you get any 'suggestions' from George Owdon?
posted via 86.175.120.123 user Peter_H.
message 43334 - 03/04/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: What about Peggy?
I expect Mike Dennis's assessment is probably pretty accurate: AR needed Nancy to have a "sidekick", to showcase Nancy more clearly. Speaking as a writer myself, AR was also right at the limit of how many characters he could juggle, both in terms of keeping the story moving forward at a good pace and in keeping each character distinct within the all-cast scenes (especially writing with a younger audience in mind, where some subtlety of character must often be sacrificed for clarity). I have my thoughts on how he could have done it, to include a more developed Peggy, and perhaps should have done it, but it's easy (and unfair) to criticise when I'm not the one doing the writing.

Just my guess.

It's really too bad; as a character in her own right she has a lot to offer. She --and we, as readers-- got shorted as a lot of potential was ignored or set aside for story clarity. On the other hand, anyone writing S&A fan-fic has Peggy available as an open door into some very good stories.

Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43333 - 03/04/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: What about Peggy?
Good question! It's almost as if AR just needed a contrast to Nancy and nothing more.
posted via 95.149.130.55 user MTD.
message 43332 - 03/04/17
From: Tiss Flower, subject: What about Peggy?
I've always wondered why Peggy never got her moment to shine. She never really emerges from Nancy's shadow, even in WH when she does try to step into her sister's shoes. She seems to be something of an enigma. We know she's capable as she's as good a sailor as Nancy and we know she doesn't like thunderstorms. Otherwise she's the major character we know least about.
posted via 81.132.63.207 user Tiss_Flower.
message 43331 - 03/04/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Rites of Passage: John, Nancy... Dick?
It does seem AR was looking for a way to finish the series, but we know he was running out of ideas. Though CN is interesting it has always struck me as a bit 'forced', whereas GN gave him the chance to end things quite neatly.
posted via 95.149.130.55 user MTD.
message 43330 - 03/04/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Rites of Passage: John, Nancy... Dick?
I remember reading PD and ML as a child and not noticing the 'metafiction' idea, though I was confused by the PD references in SD. It's interesting there is no reference in the other books of how ML came about.

AR was clearly fond of Titty as a character as she does go through a number of events that could be said to be 'life changing'.
posted via 95.149.130.55 user MTD.


message 43329 - 03/03/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Rites of Passage: John, Nancy... Dick?
It's interesting to contemplate this in light of Coots in the North which Ransome started in the summer of 1943. It's unclear whether he eventually ran out of steam on CN by itself or whether Myles North's plot proposal in 1944 that turned into Great Northern? simply derailed CN (and maybe the Gamekeeper book as well?).

Perhaps if AR already had as a goal to find a conslusion for Disk, the the GN plot offered a better opportunity. Still, CN was shaping up to be the ultimate synthesis of the series (or perhaps he was balking at so obvious a completion?)
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43328 - 03/03/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Heading for the Broads district
Very many thanks to Peter Duck, who emailed me privately with a whole host of suggestions. :-)
posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.
message 43327 - 03/03/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Rites of Passage: John, Nancy... Dick?
It is hard for me to comment on this, as the "meta fiction" label on PD, ML and GN was never apparent to me as a child, and I thus find it hard to embrace it now. They are all fiction, and yet so wonderful I don't spend even one second believing it isn't real when I'm reading.

However, I think Alex's ideas have strong merit, with regard to the graduation to adulthood. Maybe it doesn't matter whether it is meta fiction or not.

I wonder if AR set out to make a deliberate choice on this matter, or fell in a natural storytelling habit/pattern through which these sort of plots naturally occur to one?

AR did once say, about writing, "stick in a brat, and the others gain independence at once."

Perhaps it is silly to start hunting around for other 'graduation's, but I couldn't help thinking of Titty's dowsing. She definitely grows up a bit, but not really into an adult. I suppose there are several other similar times in her life: being left alone on the island (nearly calling Mother back), the voodoo wax Great Aunt, the final mapping task in SW... These are all tiny examples of her making herself be more mature. So not a 'graduation', but just a tangent my brain ran away with.
posted via 31.48.241.211 user Magnus.


message 43326 - 03/02/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Rites of Passage: John, Nancy... Dick?
Some very good points Alex.

My feeling is that though GN does allow Dick to make the move towards adulthood (and Titty as well, together in the final pages) the arguments for it being a metafiction along with PD and ML are strong. I do think AR wanted a way of bringing things to a close, and if you ignore some aspects of the plot and even the writing he does so quite effectively.
posted via 95.149.130.55 user MTD.


message 43325 - 03/02/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Rites of Passage: John, Nancy... Dick?
I think it's pretty well accepted that AR wrote WDMTGTS to be John's "graduation" to adulthood, meeting the challenge of taking Goblin across the North Sea. It's quite a rite of passage, and perfectly tailored for John both as we know him *and* as we anticipate his adult career path (in the RN).

In that light, a while back I hypothesized that PM was a similar effort by AR to provide a similar rite of passage for Nancy, as she assumes more of the role and responsibility of a woman in that era and culture. Some people here thought that hypothesis had merit, which pleases me, though I would hardly deem my speculation canon.

Those were both conclusions for the Swallows (particularly John) and the Amazons respectively. Aside from ML (unequivocally fantasy-based), they take much less active roles in the series after their "graduations", leaving the stories driven more by the younger characters and the Ds.

Building on those thoughts, was GN? meant to be yet another of these conclusions for AR? An attempt to give Dick the same sort of "graduation" into adulthood? What would be more relevant for the character than to make an enduring scientific discovery? And yet it had to be in keeping with the accidental/inadvertant nature of the trials in WD and PM and, further, for the sake of plausibility, couldn't be too grand a discovery --something that re-wrote archeology, or minerology, or something that brought Dick (inter)national acclaim. It had to be important but understated; a proof of the character's character and a validation of the character's relevance within their world.

Does GN? fall into is-it-real-or-is-it-Peter-Duck? uncertainty because AR had to walk a fine line between an adventure that was plausible for his young, largely average characters and giving Dick a relevant rite of passage --which, for a scientific discovery, required something beyond what an average youth might experience? It must thus, by its nature, touch on science that will affect a greater sphere than just the characters, and thereby be a story that stretches our willing suspension of disbelief beyond so much of the preceeding series.

So was GN? his conclusion for Dick just as WD was for John and (arguably) PM was for Nancy, and are the elements necessary to that goal why GN? reads a bit more like fantasy?

Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43324 - 02/27/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Heading for the Broads district
... later this year. Also Pin Mill and Secret Water, and catching up with JW of SOS. Anything else we should particularly do/see if we can fit it in?
posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.
message 43323 - 02/21/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Two Lake District TV documentaries
There is also a programme on BBC4 at 21.00 tonight about the South Downs National Park. It could well include something about Chichester Harbour, where AR kept his boat in his later years.
posted via 141.0.14.72 user awhakim.
message 43322 - 02/21/17
From: Jock, subject: Re: Two Lake District TV documentaries
Sadly, dear Auntie's beeb-player only works if you have a UK IP address.
posted via 178.43.129.210 user Jock.
message 43321 - 02/20/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Two Lake District TV documentaries
In the last week or two there have been not one but two separate documentaries about the Lake District on BBC TV, each one hour long.

Life of a Mountain: a year on Blencathra is a sequel to the previous simlar film about Scafell Pike, which I think was discussed on here.

I've forgotten how to put more than one clickable link in a post so you'll have to copy and paste this one:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08f1cc0

The Lake District: A Wild Year also covered a one-year period and focussed on a sheep farm, including the rescue of a cragfast sheep, and some natural history - the programme website is linked below:

posted via 2.31.117.134 user eclrh.
message 43320 - 02/15/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Another famous writing chair is that of Roald Dahl. An ancient old thing, with a hole hacked our for his bent spine, tucked into a cold shed full of knick knacks (just as AR liked), a blanket on his knees and a board on his lap.

I strongly recommend visiting the Roald Dahl museum (Buckinghamshire, UK) if you can. Fascinating for adults and kids.

[ Image ]

posted via 81.156.117.125 user Magnus.


message 43319 - 02/14/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Apparently the chair is in the Harry Ransom Library (the name provides a tenuous connection with AR if anyone's looking for one) at the University of Texas, Austin. I have no idea how it got there. The makers were stated to be J. Foot & Son, who were then at 171 New Bond Street London, and who were in existence from at least 1901 to 1929.

When you say "the mother" do you mean the mother of Deedre, er, Diedre, er, Deidre, er, you know, that girl? :)
posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.


message 43318 - 02/14/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Ah, that takes me back! Them were the days when we had drink and biscuits provided for meetings. Embarrassingly now we point our visitors in the direction of the cafeteria and ask them to purchase their own refreshments.
posted via 86.175.180.84 user MartinH.
message 43317 - 02/14/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
In a BBC radio comedy years back, someone applying for the job of pushing a tea-trolley round a government building was asked whether she had the required BSc in Chemical Engineering for the post.

posted via 86.153.140.208 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43316 - 02/14/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
CM's chair -- find out what museum it is in - we can then measure it.

I still think he should have had Kilwillie marry the mother

John
posted via 128.194.94.27 user Mcneacail.


message 43315 - 02/14/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Back in the 1970s, meetings with civil servants in Sanctuary Buildings, Westminster, often began with a discussion of which hot brown drink had been served. The best clue was the time of day.
posted via 92.18.214.192 user Mike_Jones.
message 43314 - 02/13/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Ah well, I'm glad the chair sparked some interest. I think it's a fascinating article myself, I admit. Anyway, here's a larger version of the picture so you can better see how things work. (Sorry Alex, but I don't have the plans.)

[ Image ]

posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.


message 43313 - 02/13/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
I don't know where Mike finds these things, either; he's a gentleman of infinite resource! I also think that it is a thing of wonder, but just a little too upright for my taste. I'll stick to my recliner, thanks.
David
posted via 121.214.35.6 user David.
message 43312 - 02/13/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
The hot drink machines produced a uniformly foul brown liquid - many believed it made no difference whether you pressed 'tea' or 'coffee'.

That reminded me of a well-known line from Douglas Adams:

"He had found a Nutri-Matic machine which had provided him with a plastic cup filled with a liquid that was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea."

posted via 2.31.187.235 user eclrh.


message 43311 - 02/13/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
That chair is insanely awesome!

Where did you find it, and how do I get plans? I need to build myself one.

Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43310 - 02/13/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Crikey - it looks a bit like Old Sparky.

Doesn't it just?

posted via 90.252.185.154 user PeterC.


message 43309 - 02/13/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Crikey - it looks a bit like Old Sparky.
posted via 86.182.41.52 user Peter_H.
message 43308 - 02/13/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands- tea tea tea
Flint -- I was speaking metaphorically -- it is a bad as the 1860's in London

Oh, indeed. I though of it as a splendid conceptual parallel. But not Liptons.
I live in one of the more interesting, liveliest and loveliest bits of London, Peckham (one of the Donald's no-go areas, I think, complete with East End gangster funerals up the road) and it's in Lambeth which in Victorian pre-Bazalgette days was a cholera hot spot, as it drew its water from the Thames directly below the Vauxhall outflow from the City (this is from memory- if anybody wishes to correct the detail, please do).
Now, the water is sweet and cool, much better tasting than it was in the more prosperous South West of London where we used to live.
But I still drink tea from Waitrose Indian Chai bags, with milk, and it reminds me happily of that roadside tea seller in Delhi.
posted via 90.252.185.154 user PeterC.


message 43307 - 02/12/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Seventy-six years now, John. And CM has been gone for forty-five of them.... I have 'Whisky Galore' on tape, and re-watch it regularly.

Here's a photo of his wonderful writing-chair, which will amuse and interest his fans.

[ Image ]

posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.


message 43306 - 02/12/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Flint -- I was speaking metaphorically -- it is a bad as the 1860's in London -- we just kill the children slowly with lead instead of quickly with Cholera. Long live john Snow.

Everything in SA goes better with a cup of tea.

As Ed so wonderful post points to the all consuming presence of iced Tea in the South -- terrible stuff, worse than the worst cup of tea stewed for 2 day and then strained through old socks. Everyone around me drinks it.
Of course most of it is Lipton's Never in the course of human history, has one man made so much money from losing.'

I finished the movie, actually it left me feeling upbeat. The boat scene was interesting - the only funny thing in the end was the slow take off speed -- that was rigged, the rest was suitably scary, although one must remember the boats had a hull speed of about 5 knots. Why the heck did they not borrow two unstayed boats, take 2 phone calls and a couple of quid?

I will watch it again -- I beleive it is the 75th anniverary of the SS Politician. Long live CM.



posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.


message 43305 - 02/11/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Clean water and plumbing (no foul arrows or slings please) is an important consideration at the time and really up to to that point in time and one must say in Flint now.

I'd have thought that at the time, clean water would have been crucial, what with surrounding farming, and the lakes being such convenient sinks for sewage, and tea would have been a solution. As it is now with roadside tea sellers in India, where water borne diseases are very common.
In Delhi, I used to get tea from a roadside seller. He had a clay built charcoal fireplace, always lit, with a metal kettle. He added the milk and sugar before putting it on to boil. He would then pour it into unfired clay cups, which would last just long enough for you to drink the tea, but which would collapse into a lump of clay shortly afterwards, and be added to a pile of waste clay nearby. Result; you were assured that the tea was sterile, and that your actual cup was freshly made and free of contamination from previous customers.
It seemed to work; I drank quite a few cups from the particular seller, and had no gut troubles at all.
Flint's lead contamination wouldn't be be fixed by tea drinking, however.
posted via 90.252.185.154 user PeterC.


message 43304 - 02/10/17
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands now tea
A few thoughts on tea.
No machine that uses plastic cups can produce decent tea. Boiling water either melts the cup or makes it sag badly so that the tea spills. Boiling water proof cups for machines can be produced, but the used to cost £1.53 against £0.02 for the standard plastic cup.
The British Army has always produced foul tea. But if you have just completed a route march with a heavy pack – it seemed like nectar. Legend has it that the tea was laced with bromide to restraint the soldier’s sexual ardour. Milk may well have been cooked with the tea to pasteurise it and prevent an outbreak of TB.
IBM tea made in their London offices, which was made in a warmed teapot with boiling water. They used Lyons Orange Label (does anyone remember this?) tea. No tea bags in the pot – a major plus point.
Nowadays the teabag in a mug has become the standard way of tea making in most offices and many homes. A point of difference is to warm the mug over the kettle spout.
Iced tea without milk has been popular for many years. With lemon or lime it does make an excellent drink in warmer weather. Many people use Earl Grey for this type of tea.
Force cereal was discontinued in 2013 after 112 years of production. I did buy it occasionally for its S&A connections, it was a cornflake type of product and may be reintroduced as manufacturers seek to reduce the amount of sugar, salt and artificial colouring in cereals.

posted via 87.113.133.203 user OwenRoberts.
message 43303 - 02/10/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
I must speak up on behalf of the IBM tea drinkers. Most of us were British, with no pretence of being American. The hot drink machines produced a uniformly foul brown liquid - many believed it made no difference whether you pressed 'tea' or 'coffee'. Surprisingly, this was very popular.
Personally, I hardly ever bought the stuff. I called this saving of expense my tax-free income.
posted via 141.0.14.217 user awhakim.
message 43302 - 02/10/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Boiling water:

Clean water and plumbing (no foul arrows or slings please) is an important consideration at the time and really up to to that point in time and one must say in Flint now.

National Geographic once noted that the Japanese/Chinese workers died at a much lower rate on the railroad construction across America than the Irish - drank tea instead of water.

The latest NG includes a good article on why beer is better than water if you have a contaminated supply and it is impossible to tell contamination until you are sick or dead.

In Oz in the 60's milk and 6 sugars - stuff it - just give me the sugar

Ed - I love your post -- well done old bean.

What is one man's midden is another man's archeological treasure.

John
posted via 128.194.94.60 user Mcneacail.


message 43301 - 02/10/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
British Army, I should have made clear.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43300 - 02/10/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
That's certainly possible. Another data point, I had breakfast once in c. 1962 with a British unit near Hannover on an exercise. Big urns with tea premixed with milk. Perhaps it was an institutional thing.

To this day I like tea with milk (NOT iced tea of course) even though I have always preferred my coffee black
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43299 - 02/09/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Sounds to me Ed as if the IBM people were from the US and trying to be English (in my experience of them it happened quite often!)
posted via 2.31.100.146 user MTD.
message 43298 - 02/09/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
As a child I didn't understand the obsession with tea, but looking back I realise you had to boil the lake water to drink it safely, so you might as well have a cuppa.

Otherwise we'd have the books dealing with constantly boiling water and then leaving it to cool somewhere. Or adding a few drops of bleach.

Finding milk sources is also documented by AR in 'Racundra's First Cruise', and the 'Third' book too.
posted via 81.156.117.125 user Magnus.


message 43297 - 02/09/17
From: Allan_Lang, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
"Sometimes the tea would be used in their cereal "Force" but mostly it was for the tea."

Sounds revolting :)

I seem to recall Susan was slightly shamed of the shortcut of using Force (with milk) rather than making porridge.


posted via 101.178.163.14 user Allan_Lang.


message 43296 - 02/09/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
John - Ed here, enjoying a big glass of tea - Very Cold with ICE made by freezing the tea itself, so the melting does not dilute the drink. It has a twist of lemon to spark the flavor, but I dare not foul the drink with any thought of adding "milk" as that would not be my cup of tea.

In job assignment overseas that took me to London (the IBM offices there) I noticed the drink dispenser in those offices offered only one thing, tea, and the milk came with it with no option to the contrary. I once spoke to one of the IBM gentlemen working there about the tea and asked him why is there milk in this tea, wo which he responded, "To drink tea, without milk, would be terribly uncivilized." Well, that explains that...

It reminded me that in our beloved Ransome stories, it is of primary importance that a local source of milk be found so they could have their tea. Sometimes the tea would be used in their cereal "Force" but mostly it was for the tea. There were a few exceptional moments when for some reason they had to take the tea without the milk, but they seemed to brave through with no loss of life resulting.

Observing this custom was just one of the many rewards of reading Ransome's so very realistic stories. As a reader, I felt I was a part of the party; I was there with them. The language was a bit different, but then that was just part of the adventure, exploring those tid bits of differences in vocabulary and in the spelling.

Some words needed help from the Tarboard members to understand, and I am grateful for their explanations. I never would have understood what "MIDDEN" was without someone's definition. That word was used in describing the GA, as: "Girt auld hen 'at wants to be cock o' t' midden." (PM CH6) There were dialect words, like "YIN" (Jacky talk) meaning "one."

It was a fascinating education I got from those books, and not just how to sail. There are many that can say they learned to sail just from reading these books, and I am glad to among them. Building a campfire, hanging a pot over it, signalling, Never tried guddling for fish, but an interesting idea that is. Tried to use a devining rod but nothing happened. Sigh... At least I tried.

With my daughter living next door, I get to enjoy a "Ransome Moment" when I see a light in a bedroom window, flashing Morse, to which I immediately respond. Oh, there is the cell phone of course, but somehow Morse made it very special. It brings back that magical moment when Nancy happened to see, far away at the northern end of the lake, the flashing of the letters, "NP" and she understood. Now that was communication. When I read that moment, I feel like cheering with both arms raised high, as if celebrating the making of a Touchdown (American Football.) But then, that is what Reading these Stories does; it makes me want to cheer - and give thanks for giving me such delights.

I need to pour more tea into the ice tray to prepare more cubes. This glass here just finished that last lot.

So, to my fellow Ransome world adventurers, I lift my glass and say,

"CHEERS"

Ed Kiser, Kentucky USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43295 - 02/09/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
I agree a nice chap, although I once remember a TARS wife who said :: "Old men who enjoy a nice cup of tea." Or in Ed's case possible gatoraide

John

posted via 165.91.12.98 user Mcneacail.


message 43294 - 02/09/17
From: Jock, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Another documentary, this time by Ben Fogle, covering SA, Coniston, and the making of the first SA film.
posted via 178.43.119.116 user Jock.
message 43293 - 02/08/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Indeed, a thorough gentleman. And his boat Peggy Blackett is almost a dead ringer for Amazon too, so another tick for him. :)
posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.
message 43292 - 02/08/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Also one of AR's Literary Executors and a trustee of the AR Trust.
posted via 141.0.14.219 user awhakim.
message 43291 - 02/08/17
From: Jock, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands- AR locations
Both the cottage and Quay house were raised up in the 1980/90s

...and some time earlier after the 1953 flooding the sea walls were raised and reinforced with concrete slabs. The top end of the creek was cut off by the realigned sea wall.

posted via 178.43.119.116 user Jock.


message 43290 - 02/07/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Geraint Lewis - I met him about 15 years ago at Holly Howe when we stayed for a few days, think a youngish Captain Flint with a wife and a boat.

posted via 165.91.12.11 user Mcneacail.
message 43289 - 02/06/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Thanks very much Ed, that's a wonderful find -- one which I thoroughly enjoyed.

I also found a half-hour documentary by John Sergeant on YouTube about 'Swallows and Amazons' itself in the BBC's 'Secret Life of Books' series. It contains quite a bit about Ransome himself as well as the book, and includes conversations with Geraint Lewis and Christina Hardyment (with both of whom I'd corresponded but never actually met).

posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.
message 43288 - 02/06/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
My only regret is that they didn't call out more specific places; I think I recognized many of the Lakes and Broads locales, but it'd be nice to be sure.
posted via 69.140.32.156 user Jon.
message 43287 - 02/06/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands- AR locations
Unfortunately Witch's Quay no longer looks how it did in AR's day. Both the cottage and Quay house were raised up in the 1980/90s to protect from flooding which altered the appearance of the cottage in particular.
posted via 95.149.55.173 user MTD.
message 43286 - 02/06/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Constable Sam
Sammy Lewthwaite the policeman is wrong to blame John for the houseboat burglary (as suggested by Jim Turner) in SA. But he was right about the Amazons being connected with the study burglary in PM; and Nancy says he was “quite good for a policeman” when the GA describes Timothy and Sammy asks how she could be sure of the colours of his clothes in the moonlight. The GA had seen Timothy “loitering” near the house during the day, and says that suspicious characters should be locked up before they carry out any housebreaking!
posted via 203.96.130.39 user hugo.
message 43285 - 02/06/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands- AR locations
Click on this link, and sit back, and enjoy the trip to Ransome Land, made to be REAL.

Yes, I saw it on transmission and enjoyed it, although I suspect that as I live in London, the real places are really just down the road.

But I find the best exploration is Google Street View. Not everywhere is covered, of course, but for instance Bank Ground Farm (Holly Howe) and Lanehead (the Collingwood home) are literally neighbours. I never realised that until I "looked" at them. You can imagine AR walking across the intervening field to propose to successive Collingwood daughters. The transformation of Lanehead into a local council centre means you need a bit of imagination to work your way back to the '30s, but it's very doable. And if you look up "Low Ludderburn, Cartmel Fell" you can get to the wiggle in the lane where AR and Evgenia lived while he wrote the earlier books, look into the window of his "office" in the converted barn, see the wooden garage that they built for Rattletrap. It's powerfully evocative.
And actual locations in the stories are best found on the Broads, where the locations are well covered, and at Pin Mill, which has Alma Cottage, the Butt and Oyster and the hard pretty well unchanged from AR's pictures, and to a certain extent Hamford Water, where you can see views around the Wade, and the lane that leads towards Witch's Quay, although not as far as the place itself. It all takes me back.
posted via 90.252.185.154 user PeterC.


message 43284 - 02/05/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Constable Sam
Classed as an act of terrorism - bet the Insurance Co said no

John
posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.


message 43283 - 02/05/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Constable Sam
I can't help but picture the insurance clerk who reads the claim form submitted by the car's owner; "the car was blown up by the police." I'm sure that the police would have to explain to the insurance company, who are know to have no sense of humour when it comes to claims.
David
posted via 120.144.160.247 user David.
message 43282 - 02/05/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Britain's Lost Waterlands
BRITAIN'S LOST WATERLANDS: ESCAPE TO SWALLOWS AND AMAZONS COUNTRY BBC DOCUMENTARY 2016

For the Ransome fan that does not live in England, our chances to see the REAL places where his characters have as a playground are rare and never. You Englanders can view these places in person with a comparative minimum of travel efforts to do so. For that, us foreigners can feel a bit of, well, let's call it "aw shucks..."

For the Lake District Ransome stories, he created an environment that was quite a bit re-arranged from the actual locations in the real world. The places we know and love from his stories may have real places in his mind, but the actual locations did get a bit of shifting. So "the Lake" of Ransome's stories does not really exist but does share some similarities with Coniston and Windemere.

However, in the Broads stories of Coot Club and Big Six, and the North Sea tales of We Didn't Mean To Go To Sea and Secret Water, he managed to maintain a much more realistic "map" that closely resembles the actual geography of the regions.

To us foreigners, it is quite a delight to be able to "visit" (vicariously) these three locations and see the "real" places mentioned in his stories.

Through the magic of the internet, and of video cameras, we now have that chance to "visit" those places that Ransome made so dear to us all. On YOUTUBE, there is a BBC DOCUMENTARY that takes us to all three of these locations to see the REAL thing. As a foreigner (in the USA) I am grateful for this opportunity to get that first hand viewing of the actual places.

Click on this link, and sit back, and enjoy the trip to Ransome Land, made to be REAL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLjkfU1KziY&index=9&list=PLfmDakLYDgMzjztSuegZCfltsssiVPHga

Hope you enjoyed your "trip"...
Ed Kiser, USA, [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43281 - 02/05/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Constable Sam
The incident sounds like something that would happen to Constable Sammy from the SA series.

It was humorous

posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.


message 43280 - 02/05/17
From: andy clayton, subject: Re: Ransome Characters played by actors
Even AR had this problem. He developed the S & A characters in his head and his books, then when he went to visit the Altounyans in Syria, he experienced a terrible clash of fiction and reality which led to a falling out with the family. This is a problem, particularly with children who grow and change so fast, but also with friends who are separated for long periods of time. We have to be prepared to renew the friendship.
posted via 80.189.220.32 user cousin_jack.
message 43279 - 02/04/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Film Thoughts
That's an interesting approach, but I wonder whether the problem is really that SA is actually not the best and most adaptable of the books. I think it was Hugh Brogan who suggested that WH was the first of the series to show AR at his best, but film makers have never seen past the brand value of SA. Even the BBC adaptations of CC and BS were branded Swallows and Amazons for Ever!


posted via 88.110.90.72 user Mike_Jones.


message 43278 - 02/04/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Film Thoughts
I'm re-reading Peter Duck right now and though I have not had the opportunity to see this new film yet I'm wondering if people could accept it more if they looked at it as story created by the children. Peter Duck and even Great Northern (which I consider not a made up story) deal with bad people, violence and even guns. It seems to me it might fit the cannon when viewed this way.

Thoughts?
posted via 184.151.37.150 user rlcossar.


message 43277 - 02/04/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Ransome Characters played by actors
The actor who played Tom Dudgeon, Henry Dimbleby, is the grandson of one of the UK's most famous broadcasters, Richard Dimbleby. As a BBC correspondent, he reported the D Day landings and made the first radio broadcast from Belsen, and went on to a distinguished TV career. Henry's father and uncle are also well known broadcasters, but he has not followed in their footsteps; he is a food columnist and co-founder of a restaurant chain.
posted via 88.110.90.72 user Mike_Jones.
message 43276 - 02/04/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Ransome Characters played by actors
In looking at the movie, "Coot Club," I discovered a few background facts regarding certain actors.

A Hullabaloo, "Jerry," was played by Julian Fellowes, who some years later, was the author of the "Downton Abbey" hit series on TV. As much as I enjoyed that series, I wonder if my delight with it would have been altered by knowing it was written by a Hullabaloo. But really, it wasn't; it was written by the actor who played the role of a Hullabaloo.

The young boy, "Pete," was played by Jake Coppard, who died in 1986 at age 15, about two years after making his "Coot Club" and "Big Six" appearances.

We see these people as Ransome Characters, and somehow we feel we "know" them. Then comes the realization that the actor playing that role is his own person totally unrelated to the character that we see in the movie. It is sometimes a bit of surprise to find out things about these REAL people with lives of their own.

Too bad about "Pete" - there was no indication in the article as to the cause of death. All too young to have life cut so short.
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43275 - 02/03/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Constable Sam
Umm...?


Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43274 - 02/03/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Constable Sam
A bomb squad was called after concerns about an unattended Vauxhall Corsa at Workington police station, Cumbria.

Roads around the building, in Hall Brow, were sealed off and an explosion carried out at 08:00 GMT.

The force blamed "an internal communications error" and apologised to the owner.

Cumbria Police said other officers on duty were not aware colleagues had parked the car outside the station after helping its owner, who had been taken ill.


The building was evacuated, a 100m cordon put in place and the vehicle blown up.

Insp Ashley Bennett said: "We have made contact with the owner of the vehicle, explained the situation and have apologised to him.

"The officers who dealt with this morning's incident did so with public safety in mind and followed the appropriate procedures in respect to an unoccupied suspicious vehicle.

"The constabulary will review this incident and will take on board any learning."

posted via 128.194.94.60 user Mcneacail.


message 43273 - 02/02/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: 2016 Film - Climax doubts
Absolutely.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43272 - 02/01/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
I still want a chance to see it here in Canada
posted via 184.151.37.150 user rlcossar.
message 43271 - 02/01/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: 2016 Film - Climax doubts
Mike - in my experience, when things don't match up children are the first to notice!
posted via 81.129.123.43 user Peter_H.
message 43270 - 02/01/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Film Thoughts
Why did they not use the old Swallow that I part own (somehow) -- it does not have shrouds -- real bummer that was.

Which lake is in the movie?


posted via 128.194.94.26 user Mcneacail.


message 43269 - 02/01/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Film Thoughts
I started watching the film last night on my small computer screen.
My thoughts on the film,
first minute the year is listed as 1935 - makes no difference to the film so why change.

Greenock is the birthplace of the script writer in Scotland so the change in Mrs Walker is obvious, the writer has not done a film for 12 years and average ratings on the films is 6.6. So at average.

Only 90 running minutes and assuming 20-60 words per minute you are limited to 7000 words, so you have to take 3/4 of the book out. If you want the full book need a 5 hour movie like King Lear.

Lake has been bastardized and the map is really weird. What lake was it?

I cannot see why they mixed stuff up - charcoal burners, that story about lighting fire is just weird and the original better.

Snake in hand -- weird as well

Old Billy was in his 80s.

For the life of me I cannot see why even with the interesting changes and I have no great problem with the spy bit, AR probably did spy in some ways they did not stick to book bits --

Kids being kids is really Billy Bunterish and the overboard scene - pure farce.

Mrs Jackson would not be miscast in Taming of the Shrew and why did Mr Jackson have a truck - more likely a cart.

Amazon's - a random pair of English girls from a random boarding school would have been better.

I loved Titty and Roger was ok for his age.

So the author needed a good kick in the pants from someone who has some film experience and can understand how to portray AR elements without being childish.

Mrs. Walker smoking -- I bloody doubt it

The travelling north wasted 16 good minutes, 2 minutes could have introduced Cpn Flint and spys,

More after watching the end tonight.

I actually liked most of it - I hate the two mothers -- makes me think of a love in in the 60's and Scotland in 1890.


John
posted via 128.194.94.26 user Mcneacail.


message 43268 - 02/01/17
From: Mike Jones , subject: Re: 2016 Film - Climax doubts
It's a children's film. Suspension of disbelief?
posted via 82.132.228.145 user Mike_Jones.
message 43267 - 01/31/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: 2016 Film - Climax doubts
Impossible in the extreme
posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.
message 43266 - 01/31/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: 2016 Film - Climax doubts
I have given my opinion on the new film and don’t want to add to it, but I would be interested to know what others thought of the climactic event of the film – the attempt by the crews of ‘Amazon’ and ‘Swallow’ to prevent the aircraft which carries the captured Capn Flint from taking off from the lake. They do this by stretching a rope between the two boats so that it catches on the undercarriage (floats) of the aircraft.

I am not a sailor, so I may be completely wrong here, but it seems to me that to navigate two small sailing boats, using wind alone (no engines or oars), into the correct position on the lake, and then maintain station, keeping the rope taut, would take some time, depending on the wind conditions (in the film, there didn't seem to be any wind at all). I’m guessing but I would have thought at least 5-10 minutes. In the film, the time from the moment ‘Nancy’ throws the rope to ‘John’ to the moment the rope is caught on the undercarriage is 30 seconds (I have timed it). Surely this would not be possible?

By the way, I realise that film action is often time-condensed, but the problem here is that the simultaneous events aboard the plane are in real time. And by the way again, it looks to me as though ‘Nancy’ used a slip-knot to attach the rope to Amazon’s stem, so she was able to cast it off, but ‘John’ used a fixed knot, so he had to cut the rope with his pen-knife.

posted via 81.129.123.43 user Peter_H.


message 43265 - 01/31/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
Regarding "HIED".

Two references to the word "SHIED" - ML and PP, but no "HIED". At least, none in my TXT copies that I typed in myself, which makes that source subject to typo errors not found in the original books. There were those moments that I felt I had found an error, and corrected it in my version. Wish now I had left it alone, but that is the value of hind-sight.
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43264 - 01/31/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
Anyone who knows Shakespeare's Twelfth Night will remember Olivia saying, "Hie thee, Malvolio" when she wants him to act quickly.
posted via 141.0.14.146 user awhakim.
message 43263 - 01/31/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Rating films (was Contrasting Viewpoint)
Jock:

I can be as critical as the next boatswain, but if you look at the statistics the film achieved an 8.7 from Under 18 girls, granted a small set of numbers and one would normally question the statistical validity, but it is an indicator that perhaps the movie could reach a subset of girls who are not always shown in the best light in movies, I will let my 9 and 12 year old watch the DVD I just got and I will let you know.

Of course one could argue that effectively Nancy has more Y chromosome than John. (Personal and controversial opinion)

John

posted via 128.194.94.27 user Mcneacail.
message 43262 - 01/31/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Rating films (was Contrasting Viewpoint)
Interesting Jock, a quick look at the reviews showed that most of those that liked had not ever read the book. We also have to remember that it is not yet been released in the USA. Anyone know why?
posted via 95.145.229.242 user MTD.
message 43261 - 01/31/17
From: Jock, subject: Rating films (was Contrasting Viewpoint)
The Internet Movie Database (IMDb) audience ratings give quite a reasonable indication of audience reaction to a film.
I thought that it would be interesting to see how the new S&A film compared to some other family films.

7.9 – The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey
7.5 – Hugo
7.5 – Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
7.2 – The Hunger Games
6.8 – Miss Peregrine's Home for Peculiar Children
6.8 – Pete's Dragon
6.4 – The BFG (2016)

Now for the ratings of some classic films:

7.8 – Mary Poppins
7.9 – E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial
8.0 – The Sound of Music

And now for the IMDb rating of Swallows and Amazons (2016):

6.3!



posted via 178.43.127.230 user Jock.


message 43260 - 01/30/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
Though some of my criticisms of the film were to the way the source material was use, other observations I would have made if I had watched it having never read the book. The main reason in that it was a period piece presented as if it was the present day.
posted via 2.31.100.195 user MTD.
message 43259 - 01/30/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
"Hie" was used in my childhood too, but more with the connotation of "progressing towards" rather than "moving with alacrity".
posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.
message 43258 - 01/30/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
I certainly agree with the first part of your comment Dave, and I hope you're right about the rest too....
posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.
message 43257 - 01/30/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
Nor to me, as in "to hie after" something or someone. But I am not sure I've heard it in conversation in America, and I probably learned it from a book at a young age.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43256 - 01/30/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
I think that the fact that we, who are familiar with the original story, can watch the 1974 movie with some pleasure forty-three years later is a tribute to that film, and Claude Whatham's skill as a director. The new film, I feel, will sink without trace quite quickly.
posted via 110.148.118.20 user David.
message 43255 - 01/30/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
'Hie' is not a new verb to me John. I have always understood it to mean to move with a certain alacrity. I believe that its origin is Scottish, and so it would have been quite appropriate to use it in GN.
posted via 110.148.118.20 user David.
message 43254 - 01/30/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
I have commented on this film twice on Tarboard: after seeing it in the cinema with my eight-year old grandson, and after viewing the DVD at home with my AR library glowering down at me from the shelves. As I said, it worked as a film in the cinema, though some of it jarred, but was a much less happy experience at home.

As far as I can see, the film was reviewed, as it should have been, by professional film critics with weekly columns in their newspapers, whose job it is to review what they see as films, not primarily as adaptations of source material that is not in their area of expertise. Even a film critic who happened to be an AR enthusiast would still be expected to review SA as a film in its own right and judge it accordingly, though he/she might comment on its faithfulness as an adaptation. If such faithfulness had been the basis for judging the various film versions of The 39 Steps, 1 or 2 out of 5 might have been about right.

On that professional basis, 3/5 seems a reasonable score to have given it, though it goes without saying that the earlier film was a much more faithful adaptation.

posted via 92.18.213.247 user Mike_Jones.


message 43253 - 01/30/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
How hard is it to make a good movie from such excellent material?

I stumbled across the word hied - several times at the weekend in 3 different books, I have seen it before but not that regularly -

Ed is in hied in the AR books, I do not recall it - but I am not going to read them all - each author used to express speed

John
posted via 128.194.94.27 user Mcneacail.


message 43252 - 01/30/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
A professional negative review would be interesting to see - there must be one somewhere!
posted via 2.28.84.53 user MTD.
message 43251 - 01/30/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
"Don't let someone who has read it review it." Ugh. I suspect you're right, but on the off chance a knowledgeable review has slipped past the movie industry kapos, and someone here knows about it, a link would be appreciated.

As I said, it needs to be a professional review --Amazon.com reviews don't count-- to survive on Wiki. I haven't yet figured out a good way to cite AR forums to illustrate that devoted fans were not impressed.

I'm embarrassed for the BBC, that they allowed it to happen. I've only seen the YouTube teaser, and I'm still embarassed for them.

Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43250 - 01/30/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
It does seem Alex that most of the reviews in quality sources rated it 3 or 4 out of 5, but they all seem to use reviewers who were not AR readers. Over the years I've see this with a lot of film adaptations of books - don't let someone who has read it review it!

A good review from a BBC source is going to be unlikely as it was their film!

On Amazon the vast majority of the 100 or so reviews are 5 out of 5, and it seems that reflects the view of the media. Many of them reviewing the film as a stand alone production with no reference to its source material.
posted via 2.28.84.53 user MTD.


message 43249 - 01/30/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Contrasting Viewpoint

Could someone point me toward a commercial news outlet's *negative* review of the recent movie?

I just read the Wiki page on the movie, and the "Critical Reception" section is apallingly one-sided. Enough so to get me angry. Someone --me, I guess, unless someone else would (please) volunteer-- needs to paste in a couple reviews more in line with the general consensus of AR fans such as we here. The reviews need to be able to be cited; i.e. our commentary probably won't do, so someplace reputable(?) like BBC needs to be the source.

Assistance, please?

Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43248 - 01/30/17
From: Jock, subject: Re: S & A 2016 Film (Again!)
Having recently watched the film, I found this a very fair review.
posted via 178.43.114.252 user Jock.
message 43247 - 01/29/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: S & A 2016 Film (Again!)
Having at long last watched the film I've posted my review.
posted via 2.28.231.170 user MTD.
message 43246 - 01/27/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Ramanujan (was Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots')
Andy:

1. I always wondered as to your general location in England
2. A drone a day - excellent
3. Further to the comments about the books not starting aka Commander Walker and the no go telegram -- imagine the end of GN and Cpn Flint is talking to Nancy -- you are what?
John
posted via 165.91.13.203 user Mcneacail.


message 43245 - 01/26/17
From: Peter Matthews, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
Thank you Alan and Owen and sorry for not repling sooner but I have been away. 8 weeks certainly explains how they managed to get so much done in the holidays!
posted via 212.42.177.213 user Electronpusher.
message 43244 - 01/26/17
From: Andy, subject: Re: Ramanujan (was Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots')
I'm currently using an MPU6050 with an Arduino to monitor changes in angle over time. While fretting over the code, I have also thought that this is exactly Dick's kind of stuff. If 'born' 95 years later, he'd almost certainly have a home-brewed solar-powered GPS unit on Scarab.

Hmm... 'A drone a day keeps the natives away.'
posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.


message 43243 - 01/23/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Lovely AR cartoon on ATR
Ha Ha, I'd forgotten that!
posted via 142.176.10.175 user rlcossar.
message 43242 - 01/23/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: S & A Stage Production (not Bristol Old Vic)
True, DPIO also started at the Nuffield. Denise mentioned that explicitly in her talk.
posted via 141.0.14.219 user awhakim.
message 43241 - 01/23/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Lovely AR cartoon on ATR
This cartoon reminds me of a compilation of TarBoard postings entitled "Cut off before their Prime" that was published in the TARS journal Mixed Moss back in Winter 2003.

Some of the quotes:

Daddy's first draft "UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES CAN YOU CHILDREN SAIL ALONE IN A SMALL BOAT TO AN UNKNOWN ISLAND. LOVE, DADDY" (John Lambert)
or
"MAYBE NEXT YEAR BUT ONLY UNDER CLOSE SUPERVISION" (Ian Wright)

The Ross Cossar let the action proceed a bit further before bringing matters to a shocking end:
"At that moment something glanced off the saucepan with a loud ping. A long arrow with a green feather, stuck quivering in John's chest."
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 43240 - 01/22/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Reeflng, was: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Cool: I learn something new every day. Thank you!

For reference, to reef my gaff-rigged sloop, I take up on the topping lift to carry the weight of the boom, ease the throat halyard and make the tack pendant, ease the peak and make the clew pendant, then make fast the nettles along the boom. Sweat up the halyards and away we go.

From the sounds of it, Swallow is the same as my sloop. Goblin, with her roller-reefing boom, was different, of course. Any other instances of reefing in the books, to use as reference? As often as Knight appears in AR, I'd be interested in what other examples provide.

Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43239 - 01/22/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Having never sailed, let alone reefed, a lug-rigged boat I can't pass comment. However, when reefing the bermudean rig of a Comet or similar the reefing line raises the clew (providing you remembered to slacken off the kicker), then bring the new tack down to the gooseneck while slackening off the halyard. Fasten the reef points (bungee cords in our case), tighten the halyard, and finally the kicker.
posted via 86.129.192.189 user MartinH.
message 43238 - 01/22/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: S & A Stage Production (not Bristol Old Vic)
This will have been the dramatisation by Denise Deegan for the Nuffield Theatre, Southampton at Christmas 1988. Denise before that had a great success with Daisy Pulls It Off, a spoof play based on girls' school stories of the early 20th century. It ran in the London West End for a long time.

If asked I would have said I saw Swallows and Amazons earlier than 1988, but that date fits in with the period when I had the time and money to go to the theatre regularly. Incidentally I also Daisy Pulls It Off, also at the Nuffield, which I think was before it transferred to the West End.
posted via 86.129.192.189 user MartinH.


message 43237 - 01/22/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: S & A Stage Production (not Bristol Old Vic)
Thank you Alan, that explains a lot!
posted via 95.150.14.143 user MTD.
message 43236 - 01/22/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Unfortunately, neither the 1919 or the 1938 edition have an illustration.

It really is a good book, though he does get one thing "wrong"(?): in describing how to reef, he takes down the clew first, then the tack. Perhaps this reverse order is something peculiar to the traditional English cutter rig, where the main is loose footed and the tack left running so that it can be triced up? Either way, John gets it right in S&A, for Swallow: tack, then clew, then the nettles along the boom.

Alex

posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43235 - 01/22/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Conveniently, I just last night finished reading my copy of Knight (the 1919 edition, as pictured here). He describes how to mouse sisterhooks, but does not provide an illustration.

I think I have a pair up in the the "chandlery" section of my shop. I haven't yet figured out how to post a photo to this forum, but if someone can explain it to me, I'll provide an illustration.

Allan, I'll give fair warning so you can close your eyes.

Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43234 - 01/22/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: S & A Stage Production (not Bristol Old Vic)
This will have been the dramatisation by Denise Deegan for the Nuffield Theatre, Southampton at Christmas 1988. Denise before that had a great success with Daisy Pulls It Off, a spoof play based on girls' school stories of the early 20th century. It ran in the London West End for a long time.
There was another production of S&A a year or two later at Theatr Clwyd, and then Denise came and gave a delightful talk about it all at the TARS Literary Weekend in 1995. If anyone out there is a TARS member, they can get the "Transcripts of the Third Literary Weekend". I'm not going to quote it here: it runs to 11 pages of A4.
Sadly, though there was tremendous enthusiasm at the talk about another adaptation, nothing ever came of it.
(Incidentally, if you do get the transcripts, you'll find other gems such as Publishing Arthur Ransome by Tony Colwell, who looked after the books at Jonathan Cape's for years.)
posted via 141.0.15.34 user awhakim.
message 43233 - 01/22/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: OED
On that note, if you're not familiar with the web cartoon xkcd, and its author, Randall Monroe, check it out. He also put out a book titled "Thing-Explainer", using only the 1000 most common English words to explain such scientific concepts or creations as the Saturn V rocket, Big Bang, etc. It's quite something. Dick would be more eloquent, explaining science, but it gets the point across.

Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43232 - 01/22/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Lovely AR cartoon on ATR
Doesn't that just cover it?

Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43231 - 01/22/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Lovely AR cartoon on ATR
Mike, as Julia owns the original and refers to it as "her favourite" of the First Drafts, I think it is definitely not recent, but I haven't asked her.

Dave

posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43230 - 01/22/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: S & A Stage Production (not Bristol Old Vic)
Thanks Martin, at least us more to go on.
posted via 95.150.14.143 user MTD.
message 43229 - 01/22/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: S & A Stage Production (not Bristol Old Vic)
This is probably the production of SA I attended at Southampton's Nuffield Theatre in the early 80s. I've tried googling for further information but can't find anything.

I would have kept the programme for several years (as you do) but probably threw it out prior to a house move.

From what I remember it was pretty faithful in following the book within the constraints of a two hour theatre performance. The boats were mounted on a revolve and sailing was simulated by them rotating as if on a roundabout. No feathered headdresses just red stocking caps.
posted via 86.129.192.189 user MartinH.


message 43228 - 01/22/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: S & A Stage Production (not Bristol Old Vic)
Re-reading Peter Hunt's 'Approaching Arthur Ransome' he mentions in the preface a stage production of SA in the 1980s, I've tried some Online searches for it with no results.

Does anyone have any information of it?
posted via 95.150.14.143 user MTD.


message 43227 - 01/22/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Lovely AR cartoon on ATR
Could you imagine? Nobody would know who Ransome was today and film makers would be a total loss for creating children's adventure stories
posted via 184.151.36.61 user rlcossar.
message 43226 - 01/22/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Lovely AR cartoon on ATR
Dave - thanks for posting my review and for this cartoon, I'm a bit behind reading the latest Private Eye so had yet to see it!
posted via 95.150.14.143 user MTD.
message 43225 - 01/21/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Lovely AR cartoon on ATR
We've just posted a charming AR cartoon, one of the "First Drafts" series. See http://allthingsransome.net/vault/index.html or you can go directly to the cartoon at: http://allthingsransome.net/vault/First%20Drafts%20Arthur%20Ransome.jpg.


posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43224 - 01/21/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: OED
Allegedly one can get by with Basic English (either 850 or about 2000 words depending on the source) but I believe several thousand is more realistic. One of the useful things about English is that while it is awfully difficult to master, it is very easy to grasp enough to make yourself understood; one of the reasons English has become so ubiquitous.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43223 - 01/21/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Mike has given permission for us to post his review on All Things Ransome. See the Literary Pages Reviews section, or the Ransome Readers Recommend section.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43222 - 01/21/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Cringe-worthy Alex, isn't it? He'd used them to attach the jib-sheets, and the flogging sail made them work loose while he was on the fore-deck when the accident happened.

But sorry, I don't have a picture of moused sister-hooks and nor can I find one on the web. For those who really want to know though, you just bring the hooks together and clap a strong seizing (using the word loosely) around the shanks below the eyes.

While "Knight on Sailing" was certainly stated by AR as being used by John, nowhere in that book (as far as I can tell, and I have two editions as well as access to Tim's on-line version) is there any mention of sister-hooks.
posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.


message 43221 - 01/21/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: OED
While I enjoy improving my word power and learning more words I can weave into my life, I wonder what is a reasonable minimum number of English words one needs to get by.
posted via 184.151.61.104 user rlcossar.
message 43220 - 01/21/17
From: Hotted up (was: Review of SA&C), subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
We had this discussion only a few months ago.

"Hotted up" was a phrase commonly used by my parents and others I knew of their generation.
posted via 2.31.117.176 user eclrh.


message 43219 - 01/21/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
For those wishing to emulate John and Dick, below is a link to an on-line version on the All Things Ransome site.

ousing and its application to sisterhooks can be found in

CHAPTER XVI - GLOSSARY OF NAUTICAL TERMS

[ Image ]

posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 43218 - 01/21/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Mousing the sisterhooks: The answer is, of course, in Sailing (or Small Boat Sailing) by E.F. Knight, that "slim blue volume" that Dick and John are forever referring to.
posted via 81.156.113.224 user Magnus.
message 43217 - 01/21/17
From: Words, subject: OED
How many words are there in the English language?

There is no single sensible answer to this question. It's impossible to count the number of words in a language, because it's so hard to decide what actually counts as a word. Is dog one word, or two (a noun meaning 'a kind of animal', and a verb meaning 'to follow persistently')? If we count it as two, then do we count inflections separately too (e.g. dogs = plural noun, dogs = present tense of the verb). Is dog-tired a word, or just two other words joined together? Is hot dog really two words, since it might also be written as hot-dog or even hotdog?

It's also difficult to decide what counts as 'English'. What about medical and scientific terms? Latin words used in law, French words used in cooking, German words used in academic writing, Japanese words used in martial arts? Do you count Scots dialect? Teenage slang? Abbreviations?

The Second Edition of the 20-volume Oxford English Dictionary contains full entries for 171,476 words in current use, and 47,156 obsolete words. To this may be added around 9,500 derivative words included as subentries. Over half of these words are nouns, about a quarter adjectives, and about a seventh verbs; the rest is made up of exclamations, conjunctions, prepositions, suffixes, etc. And these figures don't take account of entries with senses for different word classes (such as noun and adjective).

This suggests that there are, at the very least, a quarter of a million distinct English words, excluding inflections, and words from technical and regional vocabulary not covered by the OED, or words not yet added to the published dictionary, of which perhaps 20 per cent are no longer in current use. If distinct senses were counted, the total would probably approach three quarters of a million.

Thus we can only wonder at the great words we learned from AR, I still get chipped for using AR expressions and being asked -- where did that come from and I just look and them and think Pudding Faces.
posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.


message 43216 - 01/21/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
SAD - teaches you one thing, a good leader is not a bad thing, a bad egg should be drowned at birth or at least sent down.

Academe has the exact opposite of a ship and it is a vey poor thing indeed
posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.


message 43215 - 01/21/17
From: Robert, subject: Re: Ramanujan (was Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots')
I have found that most academic people have very little interest outside their immediate office. I do an awful lot of very fine work with accelerometers, and at the moment we have one on a bridge in London, I have spent the last two months getting it to work on a Linux box, using MONO so that we had a more stable platform than WINDOWS and cheaper. I got it running on NUC, which is expensive and I just got it running on an English PI 2. We cannot use the USB driver written for windows so we go through the ethernet. Fair amount of code writing, but fun. Dick would have had a PI 2 or 3 on his summer hols.

During this process I cam across Ramanujan paper on Highly Composite Numbers, the sort of Bletchley Park cross Dick stuff you could really grow to love, although as Hardy said it was of little relevance, one does not do math or read AR for relevance one does it for fun.

I read the paper and was struck by the idea at the beginning of how he would count the prime components, I do not have anything like the skills that man had, but when I saw the answer I went damn that is simple. I then thought I could code it and check the answers, the paper notes that using a pencil and paper in 1915 Ramanujan missed only 2 of the highly composite numbers, literally numbers in the thousands and tens of thousands. One must ask if Ramanujan had been alive in 1941 would he have been at Bletchley and would he have solved those problems faster.

During this time of writing I did not have use the unmentionable device once, but I wish Ed and I could visit WI together and like little boys take a swim in the lake.

Now where is my book on plumbing.

posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.


message 43214 - 01/21/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'

...nearly dragged overboard by one of a pair of sister-hooks caught in the corner of his eye...


EEE! OOO! AH! Please don't talk about that ever again. It curls my toes.

Even if Allan is nuturing his sense of mystery, you need to find a photo of sisterhooks that have been properly moused, Mike.

Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43213 - 01/21/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'

"Hotted up" is unusual? Really? Daily phrase, here.

Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43212 - 01/21/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Aw, shucks.

Thanks, Dave. :)
posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.


message 43211 - 01/21/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
My daughter and I tend to use "hotted up", but that might be because we are S&A readers
posted via 86.129.192.189 user MartinH.
message 43210 - 01/20/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
In his 1869 book Down Channel, R T McMullen recounts how he was nearly dragged overboard by one of a pair of sister-hooks caught in the corner of his eye. That was how he learned he always needed to mouse them....

Out of deference to your susceptibilities, Allan, I won't enlarge on sister-hooks any further here. However, anyone interested in seeing what they look like can click on the link for a picture.

As far as I can make out, sister-hooks were not in fact used on either Amazon or Swallow, and there's only that one mention of them anywhere in the books.

posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.
message 43209 - 01/20/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Oh no, we still hot things up here. (Or else we zap them....)
posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.
message 43208 - 01/20/17
From: Allan_Lang, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
When I first read Ransome, at age 10-11, I was able to work out from context what most of the strange words meant

However, I am resolved never to spoil the mystery by ever learning what "mouse your sisterhooks" means (although it's apparently important.)
posted via 101.178.163.206 user Allan_Lang.


message 43207 - 01/20/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
I always stop reading over the phrase "hotted up". Is that still used? I always Heat things up.

posted via 184.151.61.104 user rlcossar.
message 43206 - 01/20/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
As an American, I cannot judge if certain expressions are still used in the British version of English, but there is one that I feel is possibly becoming a bit out of date (my guess), and that is, "I say>"

There are 469 times that expression is used in the Ransome 12. I do not know if that is still in current usage, or is this just a sample of the 1930's, or is that today still in popular usage.

In my reading of these books, the "I say" expression was very much a standout as being not the way I would say things. Then there was the spellings that my American spell checker kept harassing me about as I typed these texts into my computer. Another surprise of language usage differences came early in S&A as Roger ran up to the others while waving the telegram, and John questions him, saying, "DESPATCHES?" I never would have said that, and I would have spelled it as "DIS..." But this was part of the fun, the mystery, the joy of deciphering these expressions as being different from what I was used to. It was an Education, one that introduced me to some terms a sailor would know, but that I had to learn about, such as my feeling of success when I finally understood what the "Painter" was, that it had nothing to do with smearing stuff on the side of a house. A "Sheet" is not necessarily just what one spreads on a bed. A "Traveler" has nothing to do with someone on vacation. Then the truly foreign words of "pintle and gudgeon" both of which upset my American Spell checker. Reading Ransome has been an educational pleasure, showing me new places, new ideas, and a play world of fantasy that was made out to be so real He triggered my interest in signalling, a learned skill that gave me a leadership position in my group of Boy Scouts. For all he brought into my life, I am truly grateful.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43205 - 01/20/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Sorry, my link takes you to the middle of the discussion!
posted via 2.29.97.179 user MTD.
message 43204 - 01/20/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
This was discussed at some length over the last couple of years (including by myself) on the blog of an Australian author Michelle Cooper
posted via 2.29.97.179 user MTD.
message 43203 - 01/20/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
"_Books reflect the period they are written, not a much later era with different values._"

Alan Hakim, Mike Field, David Bamford: 100% yes. If something in the books makes you uncomfortable, learn from it and carry on.

Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43202 - 01/20/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
I concur with Mike fully, as I usually do. That's why we're such good mates.
David
posted via 137.147.12.219 user David.
message 43201 - 01/20/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
"Books reflect the period they are written, not a much later era with different values."

Exactly. That's why some words used by, inter alia, AR in the 1930s, words that are no longer acceptable in public speech, should nevertheless remain in the texts.

Some people in the past have thought that bowdlerised versions of AR should be published to suit today's tastes and preferences. This was discussed here a short while ago, with some bowdlerised examples produced to show how ridiculous the whole idea really is.

The books are the books. If you don't like parts of them, don't alter them, just don't read them. [Steps down off soap-box]
posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.


message 43200 - 01/19/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Titty did have those somewhat psychological moments. There was her imagination that had her pretending the Man Friday visit in S&A, and the melting in the fire of the GA wax doll that hinted at certain Religious procedures not normally associated with her normal life to the point she was sincerely worried that maybe she had truly harmed the GA. The "let's pretend" play world was creeping into her real world with not really accepting the difference of those two sets of rules. This was different from her "Man Friday" moment which she kept in the "let's pretend" mode in her mind. But that GA doll really bothered her. She was considered by the others, especially Susan, as not to be always believed, that she was apt to let her imagination run away with her, as when she kept insisting she heard the thieves on Cormorant Island bury the treasure. But to give credit when truly earned, she did have the sense to grab the AMAZON and "steal" it to win the "war." And as for her fear of the divining rod trauma, she did have the courage, once she was alone, to pick it up and have another go with it again, and this time to have some serious positive results.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43199 - 01/18/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Ramanujan (was Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots')
Even Srinivasa Iyengar Ramanujan had problems with lecturers

He also failed to get recognition from the mathematicians he contracted in England before he hit on Hardy. I don't think their identities have ever been published.
posted via 2.31.117.176 user eclrh.


message 43198 - 01/18/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
I have just finished reading the book, and my reaction in summary is that it won't get a permanent place on my Ransome bookshelf. The exposition of the plot of each book is good, but I know them already. Far worse is his constant harping on Empire themes. Books reflect the period they are written, not a much later era with different values. They came out when I was young, and the world of British children was as he described, though we all longed to have adventures like the S&As.
As for the analysis of the dowsing, I agree with Peter. It is a most memorable episode, but has never struck me as anything other than a true portrayal of a young girl being distressed by finding she had an unexpected gift outside her control.
I went on a dowsing course a few years ago, totally sceptical. It works. I can't explain it, and it certainly wasn't stressful, but the dowsing rods found what I was looking for, every time.
posted via 141.0.14.73 user awhakim.
message 43197 - 01/18/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Thanks for your comments, and I agree with yours.

The over analysis of Titty and dowsing bothered me as well, especially as I am able to dowse and fully understand the stress it can cause that AR describes very well.
posted via 2.29.97.179 user MTD.


message 43196 - 01/18/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
I think Mike’s critique of ‘Swallows, Amazons and Coots’ is pretty much spot-on. The author, Julian Lovelock, deserves great credit for writing a book on AR, doing an obvious huge amount of work, and then succeeding in getting it published. I also agree that some of the Amazon comments are harsh. However, John Nichols is right to mention academic reviews, because I feel that Julian Lovelock has fallen prey to the modern ‘contextual’ approach to literary criticism, in which you don’t just analyse the text, but you also consider the historical, political, social and psychological etc. influences on the author concerned. That may be appropriate with regard to some authors, but not Ransome, in my view. AR was an experienced, trained journalist, who wrote down what he saw and what he heard and little else. His approach to children’s fiction was the same – what did they do, what did they see, what did they eat. There was only one very real ‘activity’ which he didn't mention, and we all know what that was. He used his imagination to construct adventures for the children based on reality in a known landscape. OK, there are echoes of ‘Empire’ in Commander Walker’s naval missions but these are very much in the background.

Julian Lovelock has also deconstructed the Titty dowsing episode, and describes it as “more than a hint of the beginnings of Titty’s sexual awareness”. Titty was about ten in ‘Pigeon Post’ and that statement makes me uneasy. I feel it was unwise to include it. It strikes me that Titty’s distress was simply that of a child discovering that she had an irrational ‘gift’, i.e. water divining, but not feeling able to cope with it.

posted via 86.182.41.12 user Peter_H.


message 43195 - 01/18/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
If you wish to see harsh reviews, one only needs to look at academic reviews of dissertations, particularly if the reviewer does not like the supervisor, the student gets it in the head for something that occurred 30 years ago in a class. Even Srinivasa Iyengar Ramanujan had problems with lecturers. Of course the fact that he could see math most people can only dream about did not help. No one likes a Roger all of the time.

posted via 165.91.13.149 user Mcneacail.
message 43194 - 01/17/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Thanks Adam, You sum up what I felt on my first reading, but it deserved more (but judging by the few reviews on Amazon others felt the same, one was particular harsh.)
posted via 2.29.97.179 user MTD.
message 43193 - 01/17/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Very interesting review, Mike. I think that you have reflected some of my misgivings about the book. It is not that it is in any way bad, but it could have been better in some ways.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43192 - 01/17/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
To borrow badly and English "bally good", although I would give it the 12 year's meaning not the 60 year old's meaning
posted via 165.91.13.149 user Mcneacail.
message 43191 - 01/17/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
I have posted a revised version of my Amazon.co.uk review of Julian Lovelock's book on my blog.
posted via 2.29.97.179 user MTD.
message 43190 - 01/14/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Secret Water New Road
I've posted a photo of the new road name sign in the 'Town'.
posted via 95.149.55.159 user MTD.
message 43189 - 01/12/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Leegal tickling (was Victorious Moments)
Generally tickling or guddling is illegal in public waters. I believe that in private waters it is up to the owner whether or not to permit it.

The rationale seems to be to protect the sport of angling and the rights of fishing licence ownsers rather than for any fish protection reasons.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 43188 - 01/12/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Leegal tickling (was Victorious Moments)
I read this in two different places, tickling for fish is illegal in all waters in the UK. I could be wrong, but it appeared to be pretty specific.
posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.
message 43187 - 01/11/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Leegal tickling (was Victorious Moments)
I have a friend in Nuuk Greenland and he was tickling trout last summer but wished he had claws like the bears to grab onto the fish better.
posted via 184.151.63.129 user rlcossar.
message 43186 - 01/11/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Leegal tickling (was Victorious Moments)
When did it become illegal, why would anyone say this is illegal -- man against fish -- is there no fun anymore.

I think what's illegal is not ticling as a method of fishing, but the fact that the fishing rights on the river belong to somebody else.

Yes, taking fish from water belonging to someone else is poaching.
posted via 86.129.192.189 user MartinH.


message 43185 - 01/11/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Leegal tickling (was Victorious Moments)
Oops! Another mis-spelling of "tickling", and one in "legal" in the title as well!
posted via 2.31.117.176 user eclrh.
message 43184 - 01/11/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Leegal tickling (was Victorious Moments)
When did it become illegal, why would anyone say this is illegal -- man against fish -- is there no fun anymore.

I think what's illegal is not ticling as a method of fishing, but the fact that the fishing rights on the river belong to somebody else.

posted via 2.31.117.176 user eclrh.


message 43183 - 01/10/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Passenger & Spelling?
Like Robinson Crusoe and the SFR, the stranded guy is a mechanical engineer, so he has some skills, but not the "correct and complete skill set." He finally decides after a year alone to "wake up a girl." Adds to the plot, think 39 Steps girl added.

So we have an accident, is WS, we have the anchor lost. We have two, although 3 for a short while, people alone, and drifting through space, trying to work out how to manage, think WS and John and Susan getting to sea and safety. Did not PD say something about shores being dangerous?

There is the events to be dealt with, the kitten, being run down and one sees the same minor happenings in the Hollywood movie. They overcome adversity.

The ends are similar, everyone is safe and LHEA - think Cinderella.

So all the way through the movie, I had a good idea of the next stage as it was so close to WS. Instead of saving a drowning kitty, she saves the lost spaceman, etc...

I was just a bit intrigued as to why the lost couple did not have a couple of children and wake a few more up to make a village. Sensible thing to so and make for a sequel.

The interesting ethical issues in both are evident, do you leave an untrained or missing crew and wander off, in WS the Captain should never have left the boat - but that is just a personal opinion.

Interesting movie.

I purchased Swallows and Amazons DVD - had to get it from the UK Amazon, about 15 USD including postage.

John


posted via 128.194.94.53 user Mcneacail.


message 43182 - 01/10/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Passenger & Spelling?
My apologies, yes the Movie Passengers. My computer is crashing a bit at the moment so I will keep these brief.

In Passengers, the basic story is the old Swiss Family Robinson, with the castaways on a 100 year voyage to a new world. It is all automated and everyone is in hibernation. The ship runs into a meteor storm and a large one makes it through the "magnetic/electric" shield protecting the ship and damages one of the reactors. The ship is almost self healing, but not quite. In the energy blackout - a Robinson Crusoe person is woken up and is then stranded on the ship alone except for a robotic bar man, (best actor in the group by the way).

posted via 128.194.94.53 user Mcneacail.


message 43181 - 01/10/17
From: Tom Napier, subject: Re: Passenger & Spelling?
I assumed that "Passenger" was an allusion to the recent movie, "Passengers" about finding oneself the only person awake on a interstellar ship.

posted via 108.16.161.209 user Didymus.
message 43180 - 01/10/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Passenger & Spelling?
Thank you for this, Adam. I thought it was just me who was totally baffled.

May I join the club?
Anything to do with the "Spelling" thread?
"Tickling" is all very well, but cries out for context too.
posted via 90.255.41.69 user PeterC.


message 43179 - 01/10/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Cinema trips
Cinema trips are crazy prices these days. I advise all UK patrons to pay for Cineworld tickets using Tesco tokens (I build up the points for free) and then to buy popcorn, sweets and drinks from the supermarket before you go. No-one has ever raised an eyebrow at me lugging a rucksack along with me.

We often decant the purchases into a packet/container that makes less of a racket.

My friend related a conversation he recently had when he took his 7 year old to the cinema...

Employee: "There's your tickets, do you want to buy any popcorn?"
Little boy: "No, we've bought our own."
Parent: [Burns with shame]
Employee: [Whispers] "Good idea. I would!"
posted via 81.156.113.154 user Magnus.


message 43178 - 01/10/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Passenger
Thank you for this, Adam. I thought it was just me who was totally baffled.
posted via 92.18.216.117 user Mike_Jones.
message 43177 - 01/10/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Passenger
John,
I have no idea what you are posting about. Could you please explain.
Thanks
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43176 - 01/09/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Special Branch
Coleman also contends that Special Branch of equivalent have been tapping his phone for years. He seems to dislike the EU and the Inland Revenue ( a lot).

Funny that two Guardian writers had such problems.


posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.


message 43175 - 01/09/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Spelling
Tickling
posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.
message 43174 - 01/09/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Victorious Moments
AR has lots of interesting knowledge tucked into his books.

I was reading Vernon Coleman's Doctor books, and Thumper is arrested by the Water Bailiff for ticking fish in Devon.

When did it become illegal, why would anyone say this is illegal -- man against fish -- is there no fun anymore.

Interestingly Coleman mentions Buchan, but not AR. No real kids in his books.

He is not as good as AR - funny but not AR's hidden humour, nor his writing skills although they both wrote for the Guardian.

John
posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.


message 43173 - 01/09/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Passenger - spelling
contend
posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.
message 43172 - 01/09/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Passenger
I content that Passenger is just a poor man's WDMTGTS with less excitement and adventure.
posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.
message 43171 - 01/09/17
From: Ethics, subject: Re: AR and Ethics
Dear Dave:

We have to take the youngest child and then one of the friends so they are balanced so to speak. 4 tickets is about 20 bucks then popcorn, four drinks, and 2 candy make about 29.50, then the running around and petrol let us call it 50 bucks.
I took them all to see Rogue One (only 3) and it was 40.
posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.


message 43169 - 01/08/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: AR and Ethics
Certainly there is nothing wrong with it! I paid my daughter in sherbet lemons to read S&A and then she liked it, and read two others. Hurrah!

My elder daughters certainly need pushing to read the books that I decide are good for them. They read for at least an hour every day, of their own choice, but they point blank refuse to let me suggest a title. Every so often I put my foot down, they begrudgingly read an award-winner, and later tell me they loved it.
posted via 81.156.113.154 user Magnus.


message 43168 - 01/08/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Victorious Moments
Last evening I read the chapter The Race from Swallowdale to my wife. It has so much sailing knowledge tucked into the pages and I know learned as a young kid reading this very chapter.

It is also a chapter of victory where John managed a victory for his crew knowing his boat well and the routes he was willing to choose.
posted via 184.151.63.129 user rlcossar.


message 43167 - 01/08/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Victorious Moments
When you are watching a sporting event and the team you are pulling for scores, you feel like jumping up thrusting both arms up in the air and shouting, a very vivid display of emotion.

There are moments in these Ransome stories that seemed to be a Grand Event that made me want to stand up and cheer with arms raised in celebration.

Here are but a few of those moments; there are others.

In Pigeon Post, Roger comes to the realization that the piece of quartz he had just hammered loose from the wall had a glint of metal. He knew that he had found what they had all been looking for. He had really done it.

In We Didn't Mean To Go To Sea, there were so many moments of stress, of real fear of very real dangers. It was no made up child's game they were playing, like the Amazons pretending to be pirates. This was serious business, a struggle to remain alive. Things began looking up when the Pilot came on board, but a lot of questions as to how to make the next move, and how to pay for the Pilot and the telegram, different kinds of stress, but serious concerns. Then John happened to look up to that steamer next to them and suddenly recognized DADDY. Then, he was gone. So near, yet another failure. Then came that wondrous moment of Victory, as they heard the sound of a motorboat coming up behind them, and suddenly, they saw...DADDY. The shift in emotion was fantastic. Susan had to hide back in the cabin to manage her tears, but tears of relief, not of fear. The emotions of that moment completely turned around.

In Peter Duck, of course the moment of Victory was after the stress of the storm, the loss of their water supply, only to suddenly discover the treasure they had come so far to find. This emotional joy was somewhat restrained when they found that it was not gold picecs of eight which any respectable Pirate would have buried, but some pearls, some of questionable value. But they had found what they had come looking for.

Winter Holiday had that moment of emotional cheering on my part because it involved communication via code, that is, Morse Code. Nancy was recovering from her illness and was walking about to get her legs back in working order again. There was some stress as to the missing D's with even the Natives getting stirred up in the search for those missing two. But Nancy happened to look far away, to the north, and saw another light, below those of the village beyond, but a light that seemed to be blinking. She looked again, and realized that was CODE. She spelled out the letters, "NP" and realized what it meant, that the D's were at the North Pole.

This last Victory Moment was of special importance to me because it was Winter Holiday that triggered my desire to become familiar with CODE, Morse and Semaphore. My Ransome friends were actually using that. I learned it, and suggested to my Boy Scout Troup that we all should learn signalling. The Scoutmaster suggested that I teach my friends. For the nerd kid who was always the last chosen for the team, it suddenly put me into a leadership position among my peers. Those guys seemed to take to this project rather well. We did quite a bit of practicing from one end of a field to another. It was a social victory for me.

When ever signalling was used by my Ransome friends, it quickly got my attention, as in PP, John and Roger signalling with flashing torch back to the base camp as the two boys prepared to spend the night in the gulch, keeping watch. In Winter Holiday, there was that flurry of semaphore with Nancy (face like a pumpkin) in her window, with that delightful moment of realization as to what "SMT" meant. (Shiver my Timbers). Another moment that could have been a rather exciting victory of the art of signalling was mentioned in Swallowdale, but they never actually tried to get the idea to really work, and that was from the top of the Lookout Rock, they could see Holly Howe and mentioned the possibility of signalling to Mom back there from that rock, but they never made that effort. I always regretted that failure as it would have been quite a success to communicate across such a distance. This event was of course before Winter Holiday, so signalling at that time was not all that important to them.

Signalling was just another one of those features that made reading Ransome such an educational process. When I got my sailboat, I rigged it and sailed it having read nothing other than Ransome as to "how to" make it work, and did quite well. In the Scouts, I could build a campfire and hang a pot over the flame, because I had seen Susan do it and I had learned from her. It has been a learning experience to have those books a part of my growing up, and still a constant companion on into my retirement years. These books are among my prize possessions.

Thanks, AR... Ya dun Good...

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA ( kisered@aol.com )
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.



message 43164 - 01/08/17
From: Dave, subject: Re: AR and Ethics
When is a bribe a reward? When are either an agreed payment for say mowing the lawn, which might or might not be a regular task? Is it strictly according to whether the activity is fun? And what if it is perceived as fun the the "briber" but not fun by the "bribee"?
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43163 - 01/08/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Cost of movies was Re: AR and Ethics
Ah, of course. I'd forgotten the snacks.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43160 - 01/08/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Cost of movies was Re: AR and Ethics
Don't forget the cost of overpriced drinks and popcorn by the bucket, which is what my children wanted.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43159 - 01/07/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: AR and Ethics
John, does it really cost $50 to take an adult and a child to a movie where you are in Texas? Or are you including other family members?

Here (far Northern California) a daily matinee costs about $15 for two adults.

posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43158 - 01/06/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: AR and Ethics
If you want a serious answer then no its not, the fact you saved money by not taking her to see a film is of no relevance. Its interesting that she rejected going to see the film in favour of reading the book, or was she unaware of the chance to see a film?

Less serious answer, if it gets her reading any AR then why not? (Good choice to start with I have to say as its my favourite!)
posted via 2.28.82.117 user MTD.


message 43157 - 01/06/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: AR and Ethics
I'm not seeing anything unethical about this (though I would hope we don't need to pay people to do fun things). Some people get paid to watch movies. At work I get paid to read certain documents.
posted via 184.151.63.129 user rlcossar.
message 43156 - 01/06/17
From: John Nichols, subject: AR and Ethics
Dear Gurus:

Over Christmas I offered my 11 year old daughter 10 dollars to read Winter Holiday.

My wife told her that was bribery and she could not accept the money.

It costs me 50 to take her to the flicks, it saved me 40 -- is this ethical

John
posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.


message 43155 - 01/05/17
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
I can certainly confirm Alan’s thoughts on the summer school term dates. Many school terms ended on the penultimate Tuesday or Thursday in July. Public schools usually took external exams set by Oxford or Cambridge boards. In the 1920/30s these took place from late June until the 3rd weeks in July.
Between 1919 and 1951, these exams were for School Certificate at age 16 and Higher School Certificate at age 18. To matriculate meaning to be entered on a University’s register, meant passing 6 subjects simultaneously at SC level including English, Mathematics and Science. This entry requirement could vary but generally required a minimum of 5 subjects including any credits or distinctions.
These summer term end dates continued up until the 1980’s when external exam dates changed. After 1951, matriculation effectively disappeared and exams were replaced by O levels (later GCSE’s) and A levels.
Summer holidays ended after 8 weeks, although State schools only had 6 weeks. The difference was attributed to Public Schools working/playing sports on Saturdays.

posted via 87.113.133.203 user OwenRoberts.
message 43154 - 01/05/17
From: Allan_Lang, subject: Re: Character ages
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
In the 1940s (and therefore probably the 1930s; not much changed in this area during the war) the summer term at public schools ended about the third week of July, and the autumn term started about September 20th. i.e after 8 weeks holiday.
State schools broke up a little later, but restarted much earlier in September.

In Reply to: Re: Character ages (was: schools) posted by Magnus Smith on January 04, 2017 at 09:23:35:

Roger Wardale quotes a list of ages made by AR for his own reference when writing PM, which is set in "first fortnight of summer hols 1933". Chronologically it is 3 years after SA.
"R 10, T 12, S 14, J 15, D 13, D 12, N 15, P 14" Roger assumes the first 'D' is Dorothea.

WR to AR, this (S 14, J 15) not possible

S&A takes place on August. John is flush because he has birthday money from "just before they came to the lake" (June-July?)

But later Susan states that her birthday is on New Years Day

So if John is Twelve, Susan is Ten & five-eights.

posted via 101.178.163.14 user Allan_Lang.


message 43153 - 01/05/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Character ages
Roger Wardale quotes a list of ages made by AR for his own reference when writing PM, which is set in "first fortnight of summer hols 1933". Chronologically it is 3 years after SA.
"R 10, T 12, S 14, J 15, D 13, D 12, N 15, P 14" Roger assumes the first 'D' is Dorothea.
posted via 141.0.14.145 user awhakim.
message 43152 - 01/05/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
In the 1940s (and therefore probably the 1930s; not much changed in this area during the war) the summer term at public schools ended about the third week of July, and the autumn term started about September 20th. i.e after 8 weeks holiday.
State schools broke up a little later, but restarted much earlier in September.
posted via 141.0.14.145 user awhakim.
message 43151 - 01/05/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: S & A 2016 Film (Again!)
Having said on the earlier thread that my grandson and I had enjoyed it in the cinema as an adventure film for children, I watched it with him again on DVD at Christmas.

He enjoyed it again, but with the SA dodecateuch looking down on me from the bookshelf with half-a-dozen other AR related volumes, I found it a pretty miserable experience, especially the treatment of the Blacketts.

The scenes left out of the final cut mostly deserved to be, in particular ones with CF holding forth about German rearmament, but the one of the two mothers together was not without merit, although of course it is not in the book.
posted via 88.110.73.12 user Mike_Jones.


message 43150 - 01/05/17
From: Peter Matthews, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
Robert says that "Schools have been covered a fair number of times"
Sorry if I am covering old ground but I am curious as to what the normal dates for the end of term at the start of the summer holidays and the start back at school at the end, for boarding schools in the early 1930's
posted via 212.42.177.213 user Electronpusher.
message 43149 - 01/04/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Character ages (was: schools)
Regarding 'hoofs' I think all bets are off. My teenage daughters are size 6 and there's a lad in their class with size 12s already. Feet don't always have to tally with height or age, and during childhood they can grow at a rate that seems utterly independent of all other factors.

My youngest has had the same size hoofs for two or three years at Primary school, which has saved me a fortune in Clarks. Her elder siblings cost me a heck of a lot more.

So in this one area, at least, I am prepared to say that AR made no error.
posted via 81.156.113.154 user Magnus.


message 43148 - 01/04/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Donald Campbell anniversary
Today, 4 Jan, is the 50th anniversary of the death of Donald Campbell while attempting the world water speed record on Coniston in Bluebird. At the suggestion of a listener, Radio 3 marked the occasion by playing Stanford's The Blue Bird (at the time of the start of his first run).
posted via 2.31.117.176 user eclrh.
message 43147 - 01/04/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Some thoughts on schools)
I think that during the 1930s schools had much more freedom in the subjects they did, or did not, teach.

My mother went to what I believe was a fairly good private school, which taught no science until about age 14 when biology was introduced. As far as I could gather there were no chemistry or physics lessons as such.

If Dick showed an early interest in sciences could he have gone to school that had a strong scientific leaning?

I too have always assumed that John was a "Pubs" entry to Dartmouth. The book "Dartmouth" by Evan Davies and Eric Grove, states:
The regulations between the wars meant that the entrance exam could only be taken once, between the ages of 13 years 4 months and 13 years 8 months."
The age on entry is not given, though I suspect successful applicants started the next term. (Dartmouth operated a term system until May 1937) This would probably have John entering Dartmouth as a Cadet for the summer term before PP, though conceivably it might be the September entry.


posted via 86.129.192.189 user MartinH.


message 43146 - 01/03/17
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Some thoughts on schools)
Even in the 1930’s some public schools had an entry age of eleven. The school I attended did so and someone else kindly confirmed that Shrewsbury did so in the 1930’s.
Not so sure about Chemistry, I did start at prep school at 9 years old. Also my father ran his own chemical laboratory at a major utility so I had plenty of background. When I first read WH, at age of 10, I did not think that chemical analysis was unusual. However my public school had brand new chemical laboratories, replacing those demolished by a V1 in WW2, and may well have been enthusiastic about everyone having a good grounding in Science. However many schools left Science until later.
This does raise the age old question – where did they go to school? We know that Titty and Roger had a long railway journey that day according to Dorothea. As the D’s lived in London this could mean beyond London. It is quite possible that Titty and Roger went to a co-educational preparatory school in the south maybe near one of the main naval bases of Chatham or Portsmouth (Plymouth would probably be too far for a day’s travel, as the journey would be about 5 hours to Paddington) and then to travel through London to catch a train at Euston. It is probable that they would have been booked on a through train from Euston to Rio (Windermere) so that they would not have to change during the journey, possibly the “Lakes Express” which started to split into portions at Strickland Junction (Oxenholme).
We know John and Susan’s schools were not so far and they had been together on the previous train when they released the first pigeon. This could indicate that they had met on the way to Strickland Junction perhaps at Rugby or Crewe. They may also have changed at Strickland Junction as there were not many through trains to Rio.
Possibly Susan went to the Royal Naval School for the daughters of officers at Haslemere in Surrey. This school still exists as the Royal School with the Princess Royal as its President.
The only school were can be sure that John did not attend was Rugby (AR’s old school) otherwise he would have surely recognised Jim Brading in WD – who was educated there. He was probably not at Dartmouth otherwise is very unlikely that he could be present for all the Swallows adventures. More likely he was at a public school intending to be a “Special Entry” naval cadet at age 18. These special entry cadets formed half the officers in the Royal Navy and were called “Pubs” from their public school or grammar school background whilst those who had come through Dartmouth were named “Darts”.
Most schools, especially boarding schools) were concerned about pupils bringing back contagious diseases. We must remember that there were no antibiotics available in the 1930’s to control infections. Even in the 1950’s, I had to receive smallpox & diphtheria boosters before I was allowed to go to public school. Once at school everyone had to receive Salk polio jabs when these became available.

posted via 87.113.133.203 user OwenRoberts.
message 43145 - 01/03/17
From: Allan_Lang, subject: Re: The Blacketts school (& Dick)
On relative ages John is generally taken as older than Susan; he was based on Taqui the eldest Altounyan child according to Hugh Brogan, as Roger could not be the only boy in S&A. And is Molly Blackett older than Captain Flint? Not stated definitely re John or Molly that I can recall.

I have assumed that Molly was older than Jim because her memories of the Great Frost of the 1890s seem better remembered and more "adult"
posted via 103.232.208.252 user Allan_Lang.


message 43144 - 01/03/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Character ages (was: schools)
It's in PM, not PP, that we read of Dick joining the train at Crewe. That's a year and a half after WH, so he could easily be old enough to be at public school in PM despite the evidence on his young age in WH.

However I think we have to face up to the fact that the evidence on characters' ages and sizes is not entrely consistent. For example in PM Dot has the same size "hoofs" as Peggy, whereas in S&A Peggy is the same size as John.

In PM, Dick has done qualitative analysis in chemistry at school, which I imagine would not be in a School Certificate course (the then equivalent of the later O levels/GCSE), so I guess that suggests an age of 16+.
posted via 2.31.117.176 user eclrh.


message 43143 - 01/03/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: The Blacketts school (& Dick)
When the D’s are "signalling to Mars" (WH3) and initially get no reply, Dick says "Do it again" which Dorothea did: ''In matters like these, though she was the elder of the two, she always felt that Dick knew best.'' Of course, if Dick had been older than her, Dot would not have said "she did not think that Peggy could have been much older than herself" as if Dick was the elder he would have been about the same age as Peggy.

On relative ages John is generally taken as older than Susan; he was based on Taqui the eldest Altounyan child according to Hugh Brogan, as Roger could not be the only boy in S&A. And is Molly Blackett older than Captain Flint? Not stated definitely re John or Molly that I can recall.


posted via 203.96.143.237 user hugo.


message 43142 - 01/02/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: The Blacketts school (& Dick)
I am disappointed I cannot immediately place my finger on the place which tells us that Dot is older than Dick.

This is all I can find, and it makes it clear that the D's are both "youngsters", but not which of them is the eldest...

WH:
Close behind her came the four whom Dorothea put down in her mind as the elders, though she did not think that Peggy could be very much older than she was herself. She could not help hearing what they were talking about.


posted via 81.156.113.154 user Magnus.


message 43141 - 01/02/17
From: Allan_Lang, subject: Re: The Blacketts school (& Dick)
Re Dick: In Coot Club (a year later than WH) Dorothea says that both of them can swim and Dick got ''first prize at school for men under twelve''

Actually CC is only the Easter after WH

By WH, Susan is just 12. Dorothea probably a year younger, so Dick could be only 10.
posted via 101.178.163.14 user Allan_Lang.


message 43140 - 01/02/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: The Blacketts school (& Dick)
Re Dick: In Coot Club (a year later than WH) Dorothea says that both of them can swim and Dick got ''first prize at school for men under twelve''; Dick says ''Boys'', but everyone had understood (CC9). Dot recalls in Winter Holiday “the day when Dick succeeded in making sulphuretted hudrogen, and unluckily stumbled by the door and sent his whole apparatus flying into the spare room where Mr Jenkyns was to sleep”.

Hugh Brogan says somewhere that Dick reflects Arthur’s scientific experience (although AR dropped out of studying chemistry at Yorkshire College) and that Arthur and a friend had trouble disposing of some nitroglycerine they made.

posted via 203.96.143.237 user hugo.


message 43139 - 01/01/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
We know that Dick and Dorothea were the children of academics, and I think that it is reasonable to assume that they would have picked up a fair bit of elementary science just from conversations at home. They could scarcely avoid it. My father was toolmaker, and I picked up a lot of engineering lore quite casually. From my mother I inherited a pretty fair artistic ability, but that was more genetic than environmental.
posted via 120.144.9.178 user David.
message 43138 - 01/01/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
If Dick was only ten or eleven in Winter holiday, as I think I have seen it written somewhere, then he would not be at a public school for another one or two years after the summer of Pigeon Post. Boys used to go to public schools aged about thirteen at least. He could have been at a boarding prep school associated with a public school or just in reasonable proximity to one.

Mind you he seems pretty advanced for ten or eleven or even twelve in Pigeon Post. I certainly wasn't taught any chemistry until I was thirteen.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 43137 - 12/31/16
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
Schools have been discussed a fair number of times. Do we have some new members in this discussion? If so, welcome.

In chapter 1 of PM (pp. 9-10 in the Cape hardback) it is stated that, before leaving on her cruise, Mrs Blackett visited Nancy and Peggy at their school. So they were at a boarding school and both at the same one.

From the first paragraph of chapter 2 of the same book we know that Dorothea was seen off by her mother at Euston station, London, whereas Dick joined the train at Crewe. There has been speculation that he was at Shrewsbury public school.
posted via 2.31.187.161 user eclrh.


message 43136 - 12/31/16
From: Jon, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
But wouldn't day schools be equally anxious not to have "whole lot of people bursting out with spots all over, or faces like pumpkins, or turning red like lobsters or green and yellow with any kind of plague."?
posted via 69.140.32.156 user Jon.
message 43135 - 12/31/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
I had assumed from the three schools' quarantine rules in WH that they all went to boarding school.
posted via 88.110.86.134 user Mike_Jones.
message 43134 - 12/31/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
I had assumed from the three schools' quarantine rules in WH that they all went to boarding school.
posted via 88.110.86.134 user Mike_Jones.
message 43133 - 12/31/16
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
I can't remember anything specific, but have always considered they boarded at a comparatively local school; say in Westmoreland, Cumberland or Lancashire. For some reason I have the possibility in mind that they may have been weekly boarders.
posted via 86.179.135.235 user MartinH.
message 43132 - 12/30/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
Good question, the Swallows went to boarding schools judging by the odd reference in the books, and the Ds near to their father's university.
posted via 2.29.89.70 user MTD.
message 43131 - 12/30/16
From: Ross, subject: The Blacketts school
Where did the Amazons got school. I always thought it was local but in Swallowdale Nancy suggests that the GA is leaving and that they might not even see her next year if she arrives in term time,
posted via 184.151.61.2 user rlcossar.
message 43130 - 12/30/16
From: Ross, subject: Re: S & A 2016 Film (Again!)
Well one day I'll get to give it a chance and maybe I'll be disappointed too, but until then I'm going to believe that it can't be all bad.
posted via 184.151.61.2 user rlcossar.
message 43129 - 12/30/16
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Flying Down to Rio
Researching something to do with post-Great War British aeroplanes, I came across the Gnosspelius Gull registered G-BGN on 29th May 1923 and withdrawn the following year;. A second was built but unregistered; it crashed in1926, killing its pilot.
Oscar Gnosspelius designed the Gull whilst working in the test department of the Rochester based Short Brothers, later famous for their Empire and Sunderland type flying boats; a Lake District link is that Shorts had a war-time shadow factory on Lake Windermere. Before the Great War, in 1911 he had designed the Lakes Water Hen, a seaplane operating on Windermere.
Given the introduction of a seaplane in the recent film, who knows, perhaps a future production of Pigeon Post could have Squashy Hat using an aeroplane to reconnoitre the fells; perhaps the hawk that threatens the Pigeon Postal service could become a Gull or a Water Hen? At least such an inclusion would be an extra tribute to the actual, pre-copper prospecting, career of Squashy Hat, as well as a chance to include the title music from the 1933 film!
No doubt lots of readers know far more about SH’s aviation background, but I cannot recall it appearing on Tarboard before, and thought it might be of some interest for research over New Year’s day.

posted via 86.130.98.143 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43128 - 12/30/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: S & A 2016 Film (Again!)
According to the reviews on Amazon.co.uk a lot of it was filmed in Yorkshire and the Secret Harbour is a very poorly reconstructed one, not the actual place!
posted via 2.29.89.70 user MTD.
message 43127 - 12/30/16
From: Ross, subject: Re: S & A 2016 Film (Again!)
Maybe you could put it in a generic case and then one day watch it as just a story set in the Lakes without associating our much loved AR title to it.

I'd like to see it in part because it apparently shows the beautiful countryside that I generally otherwise only see through Lakeland Cam. I'm pretty sure that I'll be able to separate it from AR's work and enjoy the efforts of a film maker to tell a story.

And if any youth picked up real AR books this summer because they saw this movie then I think that is all good.
posted via 184.151.61.2 user rlcossar.


message 43126 - 12/29/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: S & A 2016 Film (Again!)
There's a thought! Firstly, because of who gave it to me and secondly I will get around to watching one day. But that my not be for a long time!
posted via 2.29.89.70 user MTD.
message 43125 - 12/29/16
From: Ross, subject: Re: S & A 2016 Film (Again!)
You can regift it to me
posted via 184.151.37.216 user rlcossar.
message 43124 - 12/28/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: S & A 2016 Film (Again!)
Link got lost!

http://held-to-ransome.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/a-1-minute-review-of-swallows-and.html
posted via 95.150.76.98 user MTD.


message 43123 - 12/28/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: S & A 2016 Film (Again!)
As I predicted I received a copy of the new film as a Christmas present, I've commented about it on a blog I started a couple of years ago but never post much to before.


posted via 95.150.76.98 user MTD.


message 43122 - 12/28/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Re: 2016 S&A Film - a late reaction
What a great way to start a new year, Andy. I would start with S&A, not just because it is the first. Each of the 12 can stand alone, of course. But, if your wife loves it, there's the warming thought of 11 more to enjoy. Plus, there's that wonderful feeling the next time you read S&A of entering that world again,and the anticipation of all the ones to follow. It's a feeling that never goes.
posted via 86.161.52.232 user Tiss_Flower.
message 43121 - 12/27/16
From: Andy, subject: Re: 2016 S&A Film - a late reaction
A brief update: my stocking contained NO films this Christmas. :)

My wife, for some (inexplicable and quite frankly shocking) reason, has never read Ransome, but she'd clearly listened to my early December wailing and gnashing of teeth.

She HAS, however, read plenty of C.S.Lewis. So, at the time, I'd asked her how she'd feel if the books she'd loved as a girl were to be turned into some action-adventure CGI Big Music outing. Done and dusted in 97 minutes. I think the message hit home.

And on this note ... I had not read the Narnia books as a young 'un, so we read them out loud to each other together, chapter-by-talking-lion-chapter.

As she now 'owes me one', which Ransome novel would the members of Tarboard consider to be the best to undergo this treatment? I have some thoughts, but would love to hear other suggestions.

Andy
posted via 88.111.192.54 user Andy.


message 43120 - 12/24/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Re 'Ransome Theme Park' (was Secret Water Road Naming)
Aha, it's Gollum again - a merry Christmas to you. Actually, I wish we could find deeper in Capt Flint's trunk his lost chapter describing the incompetent fish-frying - that would be a gem.

posted via 86.152.150.108 user JG.
message 43119 - 12/24/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Re 'Ransome Theme Park' (was Secret Water Road Naming)
What about "Spot the accurate bits in the new S&A film". (This one demands concentration.)
posted via 81.132.173.164 user Peter_H.
message 43118 - 12/24/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Re 'Ransome Theme Park' (was Secret Water Road Naming)
'The Highland Stalk' - can you evade the ghillies? 'Catch the buoy' or drift out to sea... Panning for gold, of course. Signalling to Mars. Santa's Igloo at Christmas. Dragon Festival.
We could be on to something.......
posted via 86.152.150.108 user JG.
message 43117 - 12/23/16
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Re: Re 'Ransome Theme Park' (was Secret Water Road Naming)
There is always the popular “Sailing blindfold in Rio Bay” (Summer Saturdays only).
Or the seasonal “Swim to the Fram under ice”
Maybe the authentic Great Aunt experience “ Be hunted by hounds in the woods”

posted via 84.92.128.73 user OwenRoberts.
message 43116 - 12/23/16
From: Ross, subject: Re: Re 'Ransome Theme Park' (was Secret Water Road Naming)
or the Dodging Pike Rock Challenge
posted via 184.151.61.60 user rlcossar.
message 43115 - 12/23/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Re 'Ransome Theme Park' (was Secret Water Road Naming)
Let's not forget the Captain Flint Plank Walk and the Lighthouse Tree Climbing Adventure.

Perhaps Slater Bob's Gold Mine Ride would be fun though a bit scary.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 43114 - 12/23/16
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Re 'Ransome Theme Park' (was Secret Water Road Naming)
The ever-popular rescue of a crag-bound sheep.


posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43113 - 12/23/16
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re 'Ransome Theme Park' (was Secret Water Road Naming)
But there's fun to be had with this concept! Any offers? 'Roger's scary abseiling' and so on?

The would have to be a Knickerbocker breaker!

"Octopus Lagoon" ride, the "Crab Island" experience, "Ice sled" ride
posted via 86.179.135.235 user MartinH.


message 43112 - 12/22/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Secret Water Road Naming
Yes, I've seen signs for that! At least TDC's decision is in proper recognition of AR. There's been no news on naming the roads on the housing estate that is being built to named with reference to SW.
posted via 95.150.197.189 user MTD.
message 43111 - 12/22/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Secret Water Road Naming
Many years ago a friend who knew of my interest in AR told me confidently that she'd driven past the 'Ransome Theme Park' near Ipswich. Turns out that she had seen a sign to the Ransomes Europark industrial estate (named after the lawnmower-maker, to whom AR was distantly related) on the A14. I had to break it gently to her that there were no S&A experiences on offer there.
But there's fun to be had with this concept! Any offers? 'Roger's scary abseiling' and so on?
posted via 86.152.150.108 user JG.
message 43110 - 12/22/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Secret Water Road Naming
This week the road name sign has been erected in the new development in Walton on the Naze at the site of the old Martello Caravan Park (off the B1034 Kirby Road) - the entry road is now 'Arthur Ransome Way'.

The decision was made by Tendring District Council back in September, a PDF can be seen here

http://tdcdemocracy.tendringdc.gov.uk/documents/d153/Printed%20decision%202716%20Proposed%20Road%20Naming%20and%20Numbering%20-%20Arthur%20Ransome%20Way%20Kirby%20RoadWalton-on.pdf?T=5

Curiously, the document refers to it being the old Naze Marine Holiday Park which is further towards the Naze and still in business!
posted via 95.150.197.189 user MTD.


message 43109 - 12/17/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Old Peter's Russian Tales
For those who might wish to get back to the genuine world of Arthur Ransome there is now available a new and revised paperback edition of AR’s book ‘Old Peter’s Russian Tales’ (first published in 1916), and this also includes ‘The Battle of the Birds and the Beasts’ (published in 1984). Both of these are collections of Russian folk stories, as noted down and translated by AR in his first visits to Russia. The stories give a wonderful insight into folk memories of ‘old Russia’ set among the vast forests, alive with animals. This is the real Russia that Ransome loved (nothing to do with cardboard ‘spies’).

This combined volume is published by the Arthur Ransome Trust (ART). If anyone’s interested, you can order the book at the ART online shop (not a bad Christmas Present?)

ART Shop



posted via 5.81.1.46 user Peter_H.


message 43108 - 12/16/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
I am not concerned with film-maker’s profits.

That's a perfectly reasonable position to adopt. I read the books- have only seen the 1974 Whatham film, which I thought was excellent. But my main "vision" of the stories comes from my ancient impressions from the books.
However, if we want to see films of the books, then we have to take into account the only thing that makes their production possible- the film producers' profits. And wanting the films is also a perfectly reasonable position to take.
We're getting both, so I reckon we're doing all right.
posted via 90.255.41.69 user PeterC.


message 43107 - 12/15/16
From: Ross, subject: Re: 2016 S&A Film - a late reaction
I'm still keen to see it. I have no plans to travel to Britain in the next year though so I guess I'll wait a while:(
posted via 184.151.63.148 user rlcossar.
message 43106 - 12/15/16
From: JG, subject: Re: 2016 S&A Film - a late reaction
A festive toast to you, Magnus, for your generous and fair-minded enjoyment of the pleasure of those thousands of other people of all ages and backgrounds. There are many other films for children these days which will do them less good in their lives.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 43105 - 12/15/16
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: 2016 S&A Film - a late reaction
"messing about in boats"

This certainly should have been a well loved oft repeated phrase found somewhere in a RANSOME book, but such is not the case.

I quote from "WIND IN TH$ WILLOWS" -

`Nice? It's the only thing,' said the Water Rat solemnly, as he
leant forward for his stroke. `Believe me, my young friend,
there is nothing -- absolute nothing -- half so much worth doing
as simply messing about in boats. Simply messing,' he went on
dreamily: `messing -- about -- in -- boats; messing -- -- '

Our beloved Ransome characters would certainly have agreed with such a claim.

And as for seeing the DVD of that movie, I am glad the technology used in that offering is for the UK, but NOT acceptable in machines in the USA. So I am spared the dismay of warping of the story I knew of my childhood friends.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43104 - 12/15/16
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: 2016 S&A Film - a late reaction
A good book lets the reader use their imagination. Once it is on screen you tend to think of the appearance of the actor rather than the character. Very good casting avoids this to a degree, but ever since seeing the 1974 film I see Sophie Neville instead of my vision of Titty.

Note how Ransome gives very few physical descriptions allowing us to have our own ideas of a character.


A very merry festive season to you all. Here's to a great 2017 full of people sailing, fishing, camping, exploring, playing, pretending, and maybe finding treasure...

Hear, hear! Perhaps the greatest treasure of all is simply finding the pleasure that messing about in boats is all about.
posted via 81.140.174.136 user MartinH.


message 43103 - 12/15/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: 2016 S&A Film - a late reaction
... and I should have added, I am in heated agreement with your September comments --

...it should be borne in mind that “Swallows & Amazons” is not a play – it is a novel, which is a very different animal. With a play, be it Shakespeare or whoever, all you need do is stick to the script, and then you can do what you like with the setting, the costumes, have women playing male roles etc etc, but it is considered a no-no to interfere with the script written by the playwright. With a novel, the whole book is in effect the “script” and therefore you should be faithful to it. A “new Nancy interpretation” is, to my mind, a perversion of what Ransome intended. He did not write Nancy as a “sulky pre-teenager” and therefore you should not portray Nancy as such. The fact that it may appeal more to present-day children (and thereby increase box-office appeal) is to my mind irrelevant. I am not concerned with film-maker’s profits.
posted via 124.171.84.85 user mikefield.


message 43102 - 12/15/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: 2016 S&A Film - a late reaction
Well, thanks for your last bit, Peter. But I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it, nevertheless. You're certainly right in that I was one who declared early on my intentions to not see it, however -- I just couldn't see how train chases and spies and aeroplanes could possibly play any part in S&A.

The book is the book, and it is what it is. Making a film from it by condensing and abridging material as deemed useful is one thing -- wilfully adding spurious material for whatever reason is something else altogether (and also is something up with which I steadfastly refuse to put).
posted via 124.171.84.85 user mikefield.


message 43101 - 12/15/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Availablilty of the books
Old news now, but I found the full set in an antiquarian bookshop in Adelaide while I was holidaying there about ten years ago -- bought them on the spot and had them mailed directly home.
posted via 124.171.84.85 user mikefield.
message 43100 - 12/15/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: 2016 S&A Film - a late reaction
A few people thought I was weird when I said I was deliberately avoiding the new film, as I did with the musical a few years ago. I just know it won't bring me any pleasure.

What WILL bring me pleasure, though, is thousands of other people watching the film and enjoying it on their own level. It is great that lots more people are now aware of Ransome's tales.

I'm pretty sure there's no danger of anyone gifting it to me this Christmas!

A very merry festive season to you all. Here's to a great 2017 full of people sailing, fishing, camping, exploring, playing, pretending, and maybe finding treasure...
posted via 81.156.113.154 user Magnus.


message 43099 - 12/14/16
From: Andy, subject: Re: 2016 S&A Film - a late reaction
...I am somewhat in fear I will be getting a DVD of this film all wrapped up by well-meaning gift-givers this Christmas. I can't say I want to see it, ever. :(

Andy


posted via 88.111.196.113 user Andy.


message 43098 - 12/14/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: 2016 S&A Film - a late reaction
Interesting view Peter.

I was in two minds about it, I avoided buying it on DVD but no doubt someone in the family will buy it for me for Christmas.

From all I've read and the clips and photos I've seen I have this feeling that I will end up with a response like yours.
posted via 95.150.197.253 user MTD.


message 43097 - 12/14/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: 2016 S&A Film - a late reaction
The new Swallows & Amazons film is now available on DVD. I watched it yesterday, for the first time. Sorry, but I hated every minute of it. The one advantage of watching on DVD is that I could fast-forward through the more unpleasant bits. If I had my time again, I would not have watched this film - it has left a deeply unpleasant taste in my mouth. It was far worse than I thought it would be. I think it was Mike Field who said he wasn't going to watch it at all. Good decision, Mike.
posted via 5.81.1.46 user Peter_H.
message 43096 - 12/01/16
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Registration, was Re: Sailing boats must have names
Actually, Mike, you made many good suggestions for future iterations. Anyone building a Fliptail would do well to read your ideas on it.

Aw, shucks... Bucephalus is actually a Ralph Stanley design, not a Herreshoff, but I think that's a pretty good pedigree, too.

Alex
posted via 204.194.168.209 user Pitsligo.


message 43095 - 11/30/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Accommodation on the Broads yachts (was:Sailing boats must have names)
The smallest crew member got to choose where to sleep – on the floor of the main cabin or in the sail locker (which on the "Hustlers is quite spacious) forward of the mast. The sail locker was the favourite, except when sailing at the end of March/beginning of April when it was terribly cold.

Not strictly relevant, but this reminds me so vividly of my nephew-by-marriage, Nick, who as a young lad crewed as sailmaster in "Merit", in two successive Whitbread races to New Zealand. He had no sense of comfort whatsoever, used to sleep on the floor next to the kitchen in his mother's flat, and on "Merit" slept in the sail locker. He'd monkey up into the rigging with his little hand held sewing machine to repair torn sections... Utterly mad. They did all right in the monohull class. He now has his own business (Europsails, in Geneva) and makes sail sets for others, so the Whitbread connections paid off well. He also brought a wife back from New Zealand, and before that seems to have sampled all the girls on the PacRim (well he was very beautiful, as well as a sailor in a foreign port, and these things count).
posted via 90.255.41.69 user PeterC.


message 43094 - 11/29/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Registration, was Re: Sailing boats must have names
Alex' last comment is not entirely true -- all I came up with was reams of praise for his build.... :)

I might also add that his sloop Bucephalus, to which Foal is the tender, has a great pedigree. She is one of my all-time favourite boats. Alex can correct me here, but I believe she's a Herreshoff design, being 19' on deck and drawing 3'-3". I love her perfectly-balanced gaff rig. And she's also perfectly-named, as you'll remember that the original Bucephalus was the horse ridden by the first Alexander-the-Great.

[ Image ]

posted via 124.171.166.234 user mikefield.


message 43093 - 11/28/16
From: Jock, subject: "Britain's lost waterlands..." (was: Sailing boats must have names)
Hmm... Thank you JG for the prod.

We don't have TV, and the powers that be have decided in their wisdom that the Beeb's iPlayer does not work outside the UK – an own goal for the UK's foreign office in my humble view.

Having got that off my chest, I did contrive to watch the programme and greatly enjoyed it, particularly the Broads and East Coast sections.

Yes it was the same "Wood Rose", though looking at the planking it's probably time she was fitted with new ribs, if not more!

posted via 178.43.197.245 user Jock.


message 43092 - 11/28/16
From: Jock, subject: Accommodation on the Broads yachts (was:Sailing boats must have names)
An interesting question! When my parents hired "Summer Breeze" she was billed as 3-berth, and from what I remember, the third berth was NEXT to the toilet. We actually had four crew members on board – the fourth sleeping on an extra mattress on the floor between the two main berths.

I usually had 3 crew members when hiring one of the 2-berth "Hustlers" and arranged for an extra mattress and bedding. The smallest crew member got to choose where to sleep – on the floor of the main cabin or in the sail locker (which on the "Hustlers is quite spacious) forward of the mast. The sail locker was the favourite, except when sailing at the end of March/beginning of April when it was terribly cold.

The Hunter fleet is immaculately maintained and the "Hustler" sail locker definitely does not smell!
posted via 178.43.197.245 user Jock.


message 43091 - 11/28/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Russians....
Well, it has taken the British media 90 years to pierce the 'local burglar' cover of our operatives; what else will now emerge?
posted via 81.159.83.70 user JG.
message 43090 - 11/28/16
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: Russians....
So, Comrade, the Russians in the film.... What did you want to discuss, or has it been censored by the Politburo?
posted via 86.157.210.253 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43089 - 11/27/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Re: Film taking fans back to book?
Listening to an unabridged reading of S&A is great, but this reader has misinterpreted fundamentally the first crucial plot line. He reads the famous telegram as "Better drowned than duffers. If not, duffers won't drown". I know the best interpreter of AR's books is Gabriel Woolf, but his readings are abtidged and, while I think he's done it so well, you hardly notice anything left out, I am a bit of a stickler for unabridged versions of books. Any thoughts on who would be as good an AR interpreter? Alex Jennings, who has done some brilliant Dickens' readings, has done his version of S&A but, sadly, the library's only copy has been withdrawn due to a missing CD. I think Martin Jarvis would be fantastic. His Just William readings are pure joy.
posted via 86.152.151.170 user Tiss_Flower.
message 43088 - 11/26/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
Have you seen the programme about AR on BBC 4 this evening? Exploring Lake District, Broads, and Pin Mill area. In the Broads part, there's a shot of sailing-boats for hire and I saw a 'Hustler'; then we see the commentator in his hired boat, and it's 'Wood Rose', marked as from Ludham. Same one, even?
posted via 81.159.83.70 user JG.
message 43087 - 11/25/16
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Registration, was Re: Sailing boats must have names
Thank you for the compliments all around! That's a "Fliptail 7" dinghy that I just built this past summer.

I've been interested in folding dinghies ever since reading GN?, and since towing a dinghy in a 19' sloop has serious drawbacks, I finally decided to build one. I very much wanted to build a Berthon, even contacting the company to see if they had plans --they don't, their modern business is in yacht services, but they're *very* pleasant-- or something like the Nautiraid "Coracle", which is as close as you can get to one of the old Berthons today.

No plans exist for something that complex, and a Nautiraid is beyond my budget, but the Wooden Widgets "Fliptail" looked good, so I went with that. I modified it quite a bit from the original, but I'm pretty pleased with how it came out --and for those wondering, it's nowhere near as tippy as Mac's. My narrative of the build is at the link below if anyone wants to follow suit, and I went into a bit more detail on the build on the WoodenBoat Forum (where our Mike Field came up with some good ideas for further mods). I can recommend the project wholeheartedly.

Alex

posted via 204.194.168.209 user Pitsligo.
message 43086 - 11/25/16
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Registration, was Re: Sailing boats must have names
Thank you for the info. It sounds as varied there as it is here.

Alex
posted via 204.194.168.209 user Pitsligo.


message 43085 - 11/25/16
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Registration, was Re: Sailing boats must have names
I was interested to note, Alex, that your very fine sloop is attended by a neat Berthon-style folding dinghy, which the good Mr. Ransome was quite keen on. By 'Berthon-style' I intend to indicate that folding dinghies of this design were manufactured in commercial quantities in the 1930s by the Berthon Boat Building Company on the Isle of Wight.
posted via 137.147.29.177 user David.
message 43084 - 11/25/16
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Registration, was Re: Sailing boats must have names
I don't know the situation in the 1930s, but currently vessels kept in the Norfolk Broads area for more than 28 days must be registered with the Broads Authority. Registered vessels should display the registration number where it can be easily read. See http://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/boating/owning-a-boat/tolls for details.

Other authorities have different rules and requirements. Most rivers and canals are controlled by the Canal and River Trust, whereas the rivers Thames and Medway are controlled by the Environment Agency.

I think boats on the lakes of the Lake District are registered with the local authority (council).

So all in all it depends on where you are.
posted via 109.150.85.222 user MartinH.


message 43083 - 11/25/16
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Registration, was Re: Sailing boats must have names
"All the craft proudly displayed their names, none had their registration numbers marked on the hull."

What's the law over there, for what needs visible numbers?

Here in the US, what boats are and aren't required to be registered varies from state to state: in Maine, my 19' sloop wasn't required to be registered because she doesn't have an engine (no engine, no reg, no size limit); in Washington State, anything over 16' on deck is required to be registered whether it has an engine or not. (Wasn't THAT a mess, sorting it out when I moved from one to the other!) Then there are nationally registered "documented" vessels, above five tons net, that must display a name and port of hail, but don't display any numbers. And commercial fishing vessels must display their fishing license as well as any registration numbers, but that's different. But if a boat is required to be registered, you're in serious trouble if you don't display your bow numbers and a valid annual "tag" that shows you've paid your registration fee.

For reference, here's my sloop's version: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8597/28812989774_1815ebc92c_b.jpg The first two letters are the state (WN is Washington; adding to the confusion, they don't necessarily correspond to the state's general useage two-letter abbreviation, where Washington is WA); then a sequence of numbers and letters unique to the boat (in Washington, four numbers and two letters; in Maine, typically four numbers and one letter); then the self-adhesive, reflective state "tag" that indicates your wallet has been duly emptied into the state coffers.

Should Goblin have displayed registration numbers? Sir Garnet? The Beckfoot launch? Teasel? Swallow and Amazon? Sometimes I see photos of cutters or barges and they have big numbers or letters on their sails, and sometimes numbers on their hulls --and I haven't any idea what I'm looking at.

How did things work then, and how do they work now?

Alex

posted via 204.194.168.209 user Pitsligo.
message 43082 - 11/25/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
Jock, I am sure I hired "Summer Breeze" out of Horning too! But that was 1998. My wife was horrified by what was probably the same toilet bowl you saw in 1964, which flushed with river water.

There were only two proper berths though, so did your parents make you sleep in the sail locker, forward of the mast? It was terribly smelly in there I recall from the one time I peeped in.
posted via 81.156.113.154 user Magnus.


message 43081 - 11/24/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Re: Film taking fans back to book?
After waiting patiently in line for my library copy of S&A on audiobook (unabridged), I have finally got it, but can't renew it because there is stll a queue after me. When the DVD comes out, hopefully the queue will lengthen again.
posted via 86.152.151.170 user Tiss_Flower.
message 43080 - 11/23/16
From: Jock, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
In 1964 (my first Broads holiday) my parents hired "Summer Breeze" a Bermudan sloop from a boatyard in Horning. In subsequent years, I had the good fortune to sail in various gaff-rigged boats from the magnificent Hunter fleet: "Wood Rose", "Wood Anemone", and two different "Hustlers". All the craft proudly displayed their names, none had their registration numbers marked on the hull.


posted via 178.43.206.242 user Jock.
message 43079 - 11/23/16
From: Patrick Fox, subject: Re: "As old as my tongue...
Mmm. How odd, I definitely associate it with Ransome in my mind. Its not said in the (1974) film is it? I'll keep thinking - irritating when you can't quite place something!!

Cheers
Patrick
posted via 185.58.164.43 user PJF.


message 43078 - 11/23/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: "As old as my tongue...
The quote about tongue and teeth is definitely not mentioned in any of the S&A books; I've confirmed with a computer search of the ebooks.

The only bit I can think of, which you might have been remembering, was this:


Young Billy gave a last pat or two to the smoking mound, and came to them. He was another old man, but not quite so old as the first.
“Dad been showing you round?” he said to the Swallows.
“Is he your son?” Roger asked the first old man.
“He is that, and got sons and grandsons of his own, too. You wouldn’t think I was as old as all that. But I’m Old Billy and he’s Young Billy.”
“He doesn’t look like a son,” said Roger.
Young Billy laughed. “Let’s have the box, dad,” he said, and Old Billy gave him the cigar-box.

posted via 81.156.113.154 user Magnus.


message 43077 - 11/22/16
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
"Elver, Fry, Grig is nicely alphabetical..."

That's a good point, keeping them alphabetically distinct. An old and important technique for keeping characters distinct in the reader's head --and, conversely, for linking them where appropriate: e.g. Dick and Dorothea. I had thought to keep Grig and Glut similar to match Dum and Dee, but maybe otherwise would be better.

Not sure about using a collective term as a name, though. A boat is an individual. Hmm...

Alex
posted via 204.194.168.209 user Pitsligo.


message 43076 - 11/22/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: "As old as my tongue...
I don't think mine would have, either.
posted via 92.18.211.69 user Mike_Jones.
message 43075 - 11/22/16
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: "As old as my tongue...
It was also a favourite saying of my grandmother (b. 1878). She was not a well-educted person and probably wouldn't have read it in Swift.
posted via 2.31.187.161 user eclrh.
message 43074 - 11/22/16
From: Mike Jones , subject: Re: "As old as my tongue...
I'm sure I haven't come across it in AR, but it was a favourite saying of my grandmother (b. 1891).
posted via 82.132.234.114 user Mike_Jones.
message 43073 - 11/22/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
Huh? Monosyllabic?? Must have been at the gin. Apologies.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 43072 - 11/22/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
Lovely try-out of my eel-tender names, Alex! I agree that 'glass' isn't ideal; a quick trawl (ha) of collective nouns for eels produces swarm, fry, bed, congress, wisp, draft, array, seething. 'Fry' is an East Asian collective term for glass eels; Elver, Fry, Grig is nicely alphabetical and monosyllabic.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 43071 - 11/22/16
From: Patrick Fox, subject: "As old as my tongue...
"As old as my tongue and a little bit older than my teeth" is, I was sure, said by one of the Billies in either S&A or Swallowdale. However, I happened to mention it to someone recently, to be told it was a Jonathan Swift quote, which google seems to confirm. And now I come to look for it in the AR books, I actually can't find it at all. Am I making up the Ransome connection? Does anyone else recall this saying cropping up in any of the books?

Cheers
Patrick
posted via 185.58.164.43 user PJF.


message 43070 - 11/21/16
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
No 100 points for me; I had to search them out. Clever references, though!

Elver, Grig, and Glass are pretty darn good, too. I might go with Elver, Grig, and Glut, to avoid using a name that's also a commonly used word.

Yes, AR could have provided such a list at the beginning, but then he'd have been expected to use the names throughout --else why would he have told us about them? Letting things like that drop away unused is bad form, as a writer. It doesn't add enough richness to the story to warrant the way it slows the story down.

That's all just a guess. Yes, he could have done it in a way that wasn't disasterous:

"They watched the dinghies pass, two ahead of Goblin, one astern, spooling out wakes straight enough John could find no fault in them.
"Elver", Titty read the departing transom of the first dinghy. And then, puzzled, "Glut."
"Grig," added John, watching the third, confident Swallow would have pointed just as well and wishing she could have the opportunity to try.
"Puddingheads," Roger confirmed his judgement.

The trick is, could he have set it up so that the opportunity to see and note the dinghies' names significantly added to the story, rather than just slowing it down? He had a lot to do, to get the Swallows gloomy, then put right, then on their way out to Secret Water, all of which was mostly preamble to the main storyline, so it needed to move as quickly as possible. Later, with each of Eels in their own boat, there was no advantage in using boat names as shorthand to refer to a collection of people, so he may have decided it wasn't worth the complexity.

And I could have all of that completely wrong, but I'm 700,000 words into a nine-book / 1m+ word fantasy series I'm writing, with over 450 named characters, so the principles of not confusing my (future) readers, and keeping the story moving forward, have become very important to me.

Alex
posted via 204.194.168.209 user Pitsligo.


message 43069 - 11/21/16
From: Jon, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
So, the BS connection? "Chimbley" was the last connection I made; "Warmints" was easy, and triggered "Bangate".
posted via 69.140.32.156 user Jon.
message 43068 - 11/21/16
From: Jon, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
So, the BS connection? "Chimbley" was the last connection I made; "Warmints" was easy, and triggered "Bangate".
posted via 69.140.32.156 user Jon.
message 43067 - 11/21/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
Elver, Grig and Glass
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 43066 - 11/21/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
You have half-convinced me, Alex, but not fully. There could have been a brief list of names right at the start of the voyage, and then they could have been ignored thereafter.

Moray, Conger, and Electric! I like those names.

But I prefer Bangate, Warmint and Chimbley.

If you can recall 'warmints' without looking it up you win 100 points.
posted via 81.156.113.154 user Magnus.


message 43065 - 11/20/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Beckfoot ownership, was Sammy's fears
Usually nowadays, a long lease can be inherited or is bought and sold on the open market and the value paid is not affected by being leasehold rather than freehold. If the lease was for a short period, then the price could be affected as it is possible that the landowner would not want to renew the lease rendering your purchase effectively valueless.

Some leases, especially of agricultural cottages in the 19th century could be tied to a given number of generations of a single family, in Hardy's novels a three life lease which expires when the third person dies, is typical.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 43064 - 11/20/16
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
As a writer, I suspect AR made a very conscious choice to *not* name those dinghies: AR was managing *a lot* of characters in those scenes, which is very tricky (he does it well, too), and adding three more names for the reader to keep track of would have made for more difficult reading. Wizard and Firefly could be used to refer to their crews collectively, thus can simplify a scene for a reader, but adding Moray, Conger, and Electric to the personae dramatis would only clutter it up.

Alex

posted via 204.194.168.209 user Pitsligo.


message 43063 - 11/20/16
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Beckfoot ownership, was Sammy's fears
Right. Got it. Sorry to wander off on my own. Thanks for clarification.

How would such a 999-year lease play out, in an inheritace? Would it be essentially as if the Turners had owned Beckfoot outright, and one of the kids (assuming James) would have inherited it, or is it more complex?

I've always loved the idea of a peppercorn rent.

Alex
posted via 204.194.168.209 user Pitsligo.


message 43062 - 11/19/16
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
Perhaps they were all marked
"Tender to Lapwing"
At one time and maybe still today, if a yacht had to pay licence or mooring fees, tenders would be included in the fee. If tenders had separate names then they would be liable for a separate fee.
Further north most Broads boats had letters & numbers without a need for names.
Perhaps someone could update this please, as it is a while since I was in East Anglia.
posted via 87.112.48.195 user OwenRoberts.
message 43061 - 11/19/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
Perhaps they were called Dum, Dee and Daisy.
posted via 88.110.67.65 user Mike_Jones.
message 43060 - 11/19/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Sailing boats must have names
I've just flicked through Secret Water to check my memory hadn't failed me. I cannot find any reference to the names of the three dinghies which the Eels sail.

Surely Ransome didn't dismiss these craft and let them go unnamed?! So many other pages are riddled with the carefully-italicised Wizard and Firefly. Then there's Lapwing, Speedy and Goblin. I just find it odd.

The Eel's dinghies even remain unnamed in the scene where six craft all raft up, and we learn who is sitting with who etc. This contains my second-favourite quote of all time, said by Roger:

"Here the fleet hogged."
posted via 81.156.113.154 user Magnus.


message 43059 - 11/19/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Beckfoot ownership, was Sammy's fears
...would have been paid...
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43058 - 11/19/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Beckfoot ownership, was Sammy's fears
You misunderstand me. I am not suggesting it was leased from James Turner, but I am suggesting that the whole house and grounds could have been leased from Lord Mucky-Muck's estate, perhaps by the Turner grandparents. This would allow them to act as "owners" in terms of decorating etc. and also treat it as a family home. The original lessors would have paid a lump sum for the lease equivalent to the value of the house at that time discounted depending on the length of the lease left. They might have to pay a ground rent of a peppercorn a year to the estate, but the lease could be held for many generations. I once "owned" a house in Lancaster which I bought with 997 years of lease left on it. I never paid the peppercorn rent but they didn't evict me for non-payment.

In Thomas Hardy there is a family which leased a farm for three generations and the drama in part turns on the death of the last leaseholder and the eviction of the family.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 43057 - 11/19/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Beckfoot ownership, was Sammy's fears
Nancy and Peggy clearly regard Beckfoot as the family home, so the most logical assumption is that it belongs to the Turners. It is unlikely that a maiden great-aunt would have owned it when there was a male Turner to father Molly and Jim. Suggestions that the Turners rented it seem rather unnecessary.
posted via 88.110.67.65 user Mike_Jones.
message 43056 - 11/19/16
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Beckfoot ownership, was Sammy's fears
Maybe it's just a difference in culture, but it strikes me as unlikely that CF's study or bedroom would be left intact on such a long-term lease. When I was a renter, I'd occasionally see houses posted for rent where an outbuilding --shed, barn, garage-- was unavailable to the renter, typically because it was being used as the owner's storage unit, but I never saw some portion of the house itself held aside for the owner.

Alex
posted via 204.194.168.209 user Pitsligo.


message 43055 - 11/18/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Beckfoot ownership, was Sammy's fears
It could be a long term lease which is different from renting month by month. Many estates lease out houses and cottages for a period of many years (up to 999). This makes the occupier essentially responsible for the maintenance of the building.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43054 - 11/18/16
From: Tom Napier, subject: Re: Beckfoot ownership, was Sammy's fears
As I have suggested elsewhere, it would explain a great deal if Mrs Blackett were renting Beckfoot from the GA.

posted via 108.16.164.82 user Didymus.
message 43053 - 11/17/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Beckfoot ownership, was Sammy's fears
If she rents it, why was she so involved with the decorators in PP? Wouldn't that have been the landlord's responsibility?
posted via 2.28.231.225 user MTD.
message 43052 - 11/17/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Beckfoot ownership, was Sammy's fears
Or maybe Mrs Blackett just rents Beckfoot, like the Collingwoods at Lanehead.
posted via 81.156.113.154 user Magnus.
message 43051 - 11/17/16
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Beckfoot ownership, was Sammy's fears
It struck me as a very practical arrangement. And while I imagine Molly would have had her own inheritance, separate of any bequest from Bob, to have that familiar home to anchor herself and her family would have become even more important, emotionally, with Bob gone. Keeping CF's study and bedroom available could serve as a similarly important emotional support: he's her brother, and while he might be off in South America prospecting for gold, he's still there for her.

Alex
posted via 204.194.168.209 user Pitsligo.


message 43050 - 11/16/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Sammy's fears
Bob Blackett was probably no pauper in his own right, so the Blackett girls would have been quite a catch.

posted via 88.110.67.65 user Mike_Jones.
message 43049 - 11/15/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Sammy's fears
I agree with that.

There seems to be no direct evidence of ownership, but Mrs Blackett certainly arranges the upkeep and Captain Flint has a study and a bedroom for whenever he is there.
posted via 2.28.231.225 user MTD.


message 43048 - 11/15/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Sammy's fears
I reckon that two cents of yours is worth $2, Alex.... That's the most sensible supposition I've heard yet.
posted via 124.171.166.234 user mikefield.
message 43047 - 11/15/16
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Sammy's fears
"Unmarried, disinherited in favour of the married daughter."

What if he *wasn't* disinherited: he *did* inherit Beckfoot, but since he spends his time off adventuring, why wouldn't he hand over the keys to Beckfoot to his sister, whom he obviously loves, and her husband, whom it seems he thought very highly of?

Yes, as the heir apparent he had taken over a big chunk of the household real estate with his study, but they're newly married and on their way toward a family, and he's still enough of a kid to enjoy living aboard his houseboat, so it only makes sense that Molly and Bob have the house to raise their family in.

Later on, when his nieces have turned into a proper pair of hoydens (in the modern complimentary useage, please), it remains convenient to use the houseboat just to have a little peace. Besides, when he admits it to himself, it's fun being the piratical uncle who lives on a houseboat.

Just my two cents.

Alex
posted via 204.194.168.209 user Pitsligo.


message 43046 - 11/13/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Warning -- DVD of the new film
It should be noted that TarBoard does not condone illegal copying of DVDs or BluRays. Please do not use our facilities to arrange any such transactions.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43044 - 11/11/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: DVD of the new film
Amazon are releasing the DVD in the UK on December 12 at the price of £9.99.
posted via 86.182.41.83 user Peter_H.
message 43043 - 11/11/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: DVD of the new film
Unlike books where there are often different publishers in Canada (Commonwealth distribution) and the US, North American DVDs and BluRays are all the same Region 1 or A code and different from the British Region 2 code which means you have to be careful about ordering from UK dealers.

There are some players which can play different regions but they tend to be more expensive.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 43042 - 11/10/16
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: DVD of the new film
I haven't seen anything but I'm not a film buff and don't follow film information, I'm afraid.

Are Canada and the U.S. the same code area? Can't remember.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43041 - 11/10/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: DVD of the new film
I see that the UK release of the new film on DVD/BluRay is coming on December 12th 2016.

Still no reports of a cinematic release here in Canada. Usually films are released simultaneously in the US and Canada, anything of interest from south of the border?
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 43039 - 11/07/16
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Availablilty of the books
Perhaps they sold all the copies of S&A?
posted via 86.189.206.52 user MartinH.
message 43038 - 11/07/16
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Availablilty of the books
I always check when I am in an unfamiliar bookshop to see if they have any of "The Twelve" in stock. Most have SA, and good bookshops often have 3 or 4 of the others. Full sets are rare.
But I was intrigued to find in a Sydney bookshop last week that they had a full set of all the 12 except SA, some in several editions.
This is even odder when you realise that the new film hasn't reached Australia.
posted via 14.2.89.159 user awhakim.
message 43037 - 10/28/16
From: John Wilson, subject: Sammy and the GA
The GA says to Sammy (PM29) "It would be useless to talk to your sergeant, but I regret that I am leaving too soon to have a few words with your mother", and Nancy said earlier (PM21) when the GA described the burglar’s clothes: "Sammy was quite good for a policeman. He asked her if she could be sure of the colours in the moonlight, and she had to explain that she had only seen the colours in the daytime when you (Timothy) were loitering .... suspiciously in the road" . So the GA knew to speak to Sammy’s mother!
posted via 203.96.136.19 user hugo.
message 43036 - 10/28/16
From: Allan_Lang, subject: Re: Sammy's fears
But who disinherited him, if his parents were both dead when he was so young that the GA had to bring him up?
Did he become the black sheep because of the way she brought him up?

Did they? Possibly only Grandmother Turner died young and Captain von Trapp brought in Sister Maria to raise his children*

He survives until 1916/17, when with Jim still in parts foreign and unknown, and the birth of Babe Ruth, he writes a new will.

* Sorry. wrong story there
posted via 101.178.163.206 user Allan_Lang.


message 43035 - 10/28/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Sammy's fears
Compare and contrast Ransome's treatment of Sammy as a bit of a figure of fun and an ineffective investigator who is flummoxed by his interview with the children on Wild Cat with his dealing with the much more formidable Constable Tedder in Coot Club and The Big Six.

Tedder is treated with respect if not a bit of fear and as a definite authority figure, no mocking or even teasing him. And it is not just the D&Gs whose social position might mean that they would be more intimidated, Tom and the Ds also respect him, even while wondering if he was the villain who cast off the boats.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 43034 - 10/28/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Sammy's fears
I still see Sammy as essentially a comic character.

Sammy's a classic music hall character, isn't he? The light relief. Gentle mockery of authority (but never questioning authority itself, nor society as it existed; AR may have admired Lenin but not in the Lakes).
Formidable women are clearly something AR enjoyed.

posted via 90.255.43.30 user PeterC.
message 43033 - 10/27/16
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Re: Sammy's fears
Although I agree with the earlier point that the Turners rather than the Blacketts' were probably the influential ancestors, not so sure that Jim Turner (CF) was disinherited.
Perfectly possible that he owns at least part of Beckfoot and his room indicates that he has at least a toehold there. He may live in the Houseboat in an attempt to distance himself from Nancy & Peggy. He certainly retains a great affection for his sister.
posted via 80.189.180.240 user OwenRoberts.
message 43032 - 10/27/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Sammy's fears
But who disinherited him, if his parents were both dead when he was so young that the GA had to bring him up? Did he become the black sheep because of the way she brought him up?
posted via 88.110.66.19 user Mike_Jones.
message 43031 - 10/26/16
From: Allan_Lang, subject: Re: Sammy's fears
But Jim was the Black Sheep. Unmarried, disinherited in favour of the married daughter. (WAG)
posted via 101.178.163.14 user Allan_Lang.
message 43030 - 10/26/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Sammy's fears
On a point of detail, it seems to me that the influential family was the Turners rather than than the Blacketts. My clear impression is that the GA brought up Molly and Jim at Beckfoot, the family home. Perhaps when Bob Blackett died the widow and daughters moved back there, although it would probably have passed to her brother as the son and heir.

Whatever, I still see Sammy as essentially a comic character.
posted via 88.110.66.19 user Mike_Jones.


message 43029 - 10/25/16
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Re: Sammy's fears
The Blacketts were people of influence and several people seemed to have worked for them. From Carrotty, the porter at the foot of the lake, who had worked at Beckfoot, to Slater Bob who went with Nancy's grandfather to help with mining in Africa. The Lewthwaite mother who was a nursemaid, Billy who is a part time chauffer and Mrs Braithwaite the full time cook.
Many servants (or workers) at one time all of whom needed accommodation. Some could have slept at Beckfoot either in the house or over the stables (there was probably at least a stable boy/coachman to look after the horses). Not unreasonable to assume that there were tied cottages for others as was usual in country districts when one needed workers close at hand.
Both Mrs Tyson and Mary Swainson will defer to Mrs Blackett are they possibly tenant farmers?
I will agree that it is not directly mentioned that they were landlords, but they certainly had a number of servants who then declined to one full time cook, as happened generally in the 1930’s.
No doubt the Great Aunt was a considerable influence over the surroundings even going to bully the vicar in SD because she had heard that standards were falling.
I have no doubt that the Backetts were the major family in their immediate area with a number of servants at one time. It might be instructive to compare the situation with the owners of Lanehead with the Collingwood’s as tenants.

posted via 80.189.180.240 user OwenRoberts.
message 43028 - 10/24/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Sammy's fears
I am sorry but I get very impatient with theories about the Blacketts being landlords and everyone else being subservient to them. There is no evidence for this and it is a dull 'political' way of explaining things. Sammy was afraid of his mother no doubt because of the sort of character she was, and I can easily imagine this. My own father was terrified of his mother!
posted via 81.129.95.179 user Peter_H.
message 43027 - 10/23/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Sammy's fears
I take it as another example of AR's humour: big, strong policeman terrified of his mother.
posted via 88.110.71.109 user Mike_Jones.
message 43026 - 10/23/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Sammy's fears
One of my favourite passages in SA, Sammy getting routed by Nancy as he's picked on an easy target in John, whereas if confronted with a criminal he'd probably run away (he receives similar treatment from the GA in the closing scenes of PM.)

It is probably a reflection of how the local constable was thought of and treated in the time AR was writing about.

I must take issue with the comment "He knows Nancy misbehaves...", she certainly, as we would say today, pushes the boundaries (in WH and PM in particular) but I don't think she ever 'misbehaves'.
posted via 95.149.55.175 user MTD.


message 43025 - 10/22/16
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Re: Sammy's fears
I think the relationship between the Lewthwaite's & Blackett's was almost servant like and may well have been so in former times.
It could be that the Lewthwaite's lived in a tied cottage owned by the Blackett's. At worst Mrs Lewthwaite and her younger son could have been thrown out (Did Sammy live there also?)of their house.
A bluff by Nancy, but one that would give a cause for thought.
posted via 80.189.180.240 user OwenRoberts.
message 43024 - 10/22/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Sammy's fears
Please can someone explain why Sammy is shaken when Nancy threatens,
“If you don’t go away at once I’ll tell your mother.”
What was Nancy going to tell?! Sammy's only misdemeanour was wrongly accusing John, a typically adult point of view that Sammy's mother would probably have agreed with.

“His mother used to be mother’s nurse, and she was our nurse too when we were very young. He’s our policeman. He isn’t afraid of anybody except his mother … and us, of course.”

The explanation of the bond between the two families doesn't seem to explain to me why a grown adult would cease doing his job. He knows Nancy misbehaves, so he's hardly got any reassurances that her friend (John) is innocent.
posted via 81.140.188.172 user Magnus.


message 43021 - 10/18/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: 'Secret Water' News
Horsey Island as a nature reserve is co-managed by Natural England and the Essex Wildlife Trust but owned by Vicky and Joe Backhouse, who rent the cottage for holiday lets and as I understand control access.
posted via 2.28.231.198 user MTD.
message 43020 - 10/18/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: 'Secret Water' News
All I'm aware of is that there is an annual open day when you can cross, and this is always reported locally as if it is the only occasion you can do so without permission.
posted via 2.28.231.198 user MTD.
message 43019 - 10/18/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: 'Secret Water' News
To launch a dinghy on the Walton Backwaters...

I find that attending the annual 'Swamazons' race, run by the Old Gaffers Association, from Walton & Frinton Yacht Club is the best way. The club is open to all race entrants (a small fee to enter) and you get to see lots of beautiful old dinghies, plus safety boat cover as you race round the island.

If you are a member of a sailing club, a courtesy email to W&FYC will probably grant you permission to use their facilities as a visitor, for one day. You can only launch between mid and high tide though.

NOTE THAT THE CAR PARK NEAR THE CLUB WILL FLOOD AT HIGH TIDE! ASK WHERE IS SAFE TO PARK!

I have paid to launch a dinghy from Titchmarsh Marina too, which costs a little more than feels suitable (in my opinion). I suppose it is more geared up for yachts. There is a concrete slipway so you can launch at any state of the tide. The gates close at 5pm which might cut short your visit if intending to tow your dinghy away and the end of the day.
posted via 81.140.188.172 user Magnus.


message 43018 - 10/18/16
From: RichardG, subject: Re: 'Secret Water' News
Mike, while the signing indicates that vehicles should not use the new stretch of Island Road on the mainland, it advises that it is, I think, a "permissive (or permitted) footpath", which is one that the landowner allows the public to use without it becoming a right of way. There is what looks as though it might have been a further notice board by the pillbox on the sea wall, but if so the board has vanished. So there is nothing visible on site that advises about requiring permission to cross the Red Sea on foot, or how to go about getting it.
posted via 77.44.122.220 user RichardG.
message 43017 - 10/17/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: 'Secret Water' News
You're right Richard, which in a way makes the suggestion even more strange. As SW centres on Kirby-le-Soken rather the Walton (other than getting the rudder repaired) the council are trying to exploit the connection - they attempt to in publicity material but are always vague so avoiding copyright and permissions from the literary executors!

Sounds like you had a good trip, I assume you're aware that to cross the Red Sea you have to have permission?

Sorry I can't help you with the sailing questions, I'm someone will!
posted via 95.150.15.47 user MTD.


message 43016 - 10/17/16
From: RichardG, subject: Re: 'Secret Water' News
I assume you mean opposite the church in Walton-on-the-Naze, rather than Kirby-le-Soken (which is, I think, where the Mastodon went for his supplies) ?
I paid my first-ever visit to Secret Water a couple of weeks ago, getting part-way across the Red Sea before I met the incoming tide and beat a retreat, and then walking along the sea wall to Witches Quay. We also had an excellent lunch at the Butt & Oyster. Sadly I was unable to find a way to get afloat on this trip. Does anyone know where the best place to launch a dinghy on the Walton Backwaters would be, and if fees are involved ? Or indeed, rather than towing my own boat across the country, does anyone hire out sailing dinghies on the Backwaters ?
posted via 77.44.122.220 user RichardG.
message 43015 - 10/12/16
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Who drew the 1970 S&A Puffin paperback maps?
I thought Secret Water was the only book to have maps within the story, rather than just endpapers.

Assuming that by "within the story" you're referring to physical position in the book, rather than the map being an object that is encountered by the characters in the story, such maps seem to be the rule rather than the exception.

My copy of S&A has a map of Wild Cat Island facing the first page of text, so part of the "front matter" but not strictly part of the endpapers.

PD has a map of Crab Island in amongst the text.

CC has a map of the River Bure in amongst the text.

WD has a chart of approches to Harwich in amongst the text.

B6 has a map of the Horning/Ranworth area in amongst the text.

ML has a map of the Three Islands, supposedly found aboard the Shining Moon, in amongst the text.

PM has a map of the area round Beckfoot in amongst the text.

GN has "Mac's chart of the cove" in amongst the text.
posted via 2.26.130.15 user eclrh.


message 43014 - 10/12/16
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Who drew the 1970 S&A Puffin paperback maps?
Yes, it's in the original WH hardback too. Quite obviously AR's own work.
posted via 141.0.15.34 user awhakim.
message 43013 - 10/11/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Who drew the 1970 S&A Puffin paperback maps?
Gosh! I did not remember that map at all! I thought Secret Water was the only book to have maps within the story, rather than just endpapers.

It looks like an AR original to me. Lettering and tree style matches the usual endpaper maps.
posted via 86.191.65.110 user Magnus.


message 43012 - 10/11/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Swallows, Amazons and Coots
Good point, I hadn't thought of that. At last a connection between AR and Hamlet!
posted via 2.29.89.21 user MTD.
message 43011 - 10/11/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Swallows, Amazons and Coots
Some humour can be found in all the books, but to describe it as a major attraction is pushing it a bit. Would Lovelock regard Osric and the Gravediggers as a major attraction of Hamlet?
posted via 88.110.82.98 user Mike_Jones.
message 43010 - 10/11/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Swallows, Amazons and Coots
Julian Lovelock's academic study of AR's canon is a very welcome volume (and much anticipated by myself.) Further to my earlier comment on his chapter on CC it now seems from other chapters he sees every book as having comedy as a major attraction to readers of them.

As I commented before in relation to CC, I have never in any of my readings of AR over fifty odd years found the books to be humorous.

Yes there are occasional comic passages but these have always struck me as slightly laboured, and not of much importance. Nor in all the books recounting the creation of the books have I noticed any reference to the 'comedy' nature of them.

Am I alone in this?
posted via 2.29.89.21 user MTD.


message 43009 - 10/11/16
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Who drew the 1970 S&A Puffin paperback maps?
My only Puffin paperback of the series is "Winter Holiday", which has (page 246) a map “Eskimo Settlements in the Sub-Arctic” No indication of artist. There is also a frontispiece two-page map “North Polar Expedition” with a note from Capt. Nancy Blackett. The book is shown as published by Puffin in 1968; reprinted 1972, 1974, 1975, 1977, 1979, 1981, 1982. NB: The author’s blurb on the back cover mentions the Hon. M.A. (Durham) which AR had asked Jonathan Cape not to mention.


posted via 203.96.137.211 user hugo.


message 43008 - 10/11/16
From: Jock, subject: Re: where to enjoy AR
Further to Duncan's observation see Magnus Smith's post from last December:


posted via 178.43.198.147 user Jock.
message 43007 - 10/10/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Re: where to enjoy AR
Thanks for that info, Duncan. It makes more sense that he used the name of boatyard owners for his central characters than an ex-wife who'd made his life pretty miserable!
posted via 86.156.107.0 user Tiss_Flower.
message 43006 - 10/09/16
From: Duncan, subject: Re: where to enjoy AR
I suspect the Walker name came from Walkers Boatyard on Windermere (where he might have begun his voyage in Swallow on the day he began writing SA). So what is perhaps more significant is the possibility it didn't occur to him that it was his ex-wife's maiden name.
posted via 87.113.73.15 user Duncan.
message 43005 - 10/09/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Coot Club
I'm not sure about 'melodrama', but there are certainly comic moments in CC, e.g. "Don't catch a lobster!" And the description of William's inner thoughts in chapter 23. I have just read a Lutterworth Press interview with the author, and his reported views there seem very acceptable. But I have yet to tackle the book.
posted via 88.110.90.240 user Mike_Jones.
message 43004 - 10/09/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Coot Club
I've just read the chapter on CC in Julian Lovelock's 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'

He describes the book as a "...comic melodrama..." (p92) and later states "Then the comedy of Chapter 23, 'William's Heroic Moment'..." (p99).

In my many readings of CC I've never found it 'comic'.

I well remember reading it the first time and being impressed by how, thanks to William, they are able to get supplies between the two boats and the method used (once again AR explaining how things work.)
posted via 2.29.89.21 user MTD.


message 43003 - 10/07/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: where to enjoy AR
Wasn't it documented that AR was perfectly happy in the company of children, as long as everyone was doing what he wanted to do?

The story of the unwanted visit to a grumpy author (turkish slipper incident) is probably cited as an example of AR grumpiness. Worse is the documented fact that he wrote to a headmistress in Suffolk asking her to make the school children play quietly so they would not disturb his nearby home. But...

He invited George and Josephone Russell (teenagers) to crew his yacht on many occasions, he insisted small children start with cake when they visited his house for tea (leave bread to the end), and Dick/Desmond Kesall seem to have good memories of AR too; they never said he was a grump. Those are just a few examples I can think of.

As for Tabitha, it is said that Ivy dictated all the letters! Whilst Ivy probably did make matters worse, I think it fair to say AR was half to blame. Though in those days fathers did not have great relationships with daughters anyway. The era of "seen and not heard" was still upon the UK.
posted via 86.191.65.110 user Magnus.


message 43002 - 10/05/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: where to enjoy AR
I don't know what lengths AT went to with regard to his daughter. Did he try to form a strong relationship but was rebuffed?

According to books I have read, "Dor-Dor" wrote to her and tried to keep close, but his poor relationship with Ivy Walker put the lid on that one.
After all, after the victory in the Alfred Douglas libel case, he went to Russia probably less to write "Old Peter's Russian Tales" than to escape Ivy. Of course he finished up staying rather longer than he'd intended and came back with Evgenia. But there seems little doubt that he was much affected by Tabitha taking her mother's 'side'.
posted via 90.255.45.151 user PeterC.


message 43001 - 10/04/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Re: where to enjoy AR
I've always had the impression that AR was not overly keen on children. This isn't a criticism as I think the best writers of so-called children's books don't have to be - A.A. Milne, Kenneth Grahame, Lewis Carroll. Although these writers are said to have written their stories for specific children, I think they all, like AR, wrote for the child in themselves. Richmal Crompton is perhaps an exception. I believe she was a teacher. Did she have children? Is there a gender difference? Perhaps not as I'm not sure Enid Blyton particularly liked children.
Also I don't know what lengths AT went to with regard to his daughter. Did he try to form a strong relationship but was rebuffed? And is there any significance in his giving the Swallows his first wife's family name?
posted via 86.156.107.0 user Tiss_Flower.
message 43000 - 10/04/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: where to enjoy AR
there is still something about Dorothea.

Oh certainly. I think that he wrote into her something of what he would have liked to experience with his daughter Tabitha. I'm as down on pop psychology as the next fellow (but isn't it fun?), however in this case his failure to keep a good relationship with his daughter must have been one of the catastrophes of his life, and at first creating Titty and later and more explicitly Dot, must have been cathartic for him, in the same way that writing the books themselves must have been a relief, along with the tension, and the Critic on the Hearth.
posted via 90.255.34.74 user PeterC.


message 42999 - 10/02/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: where to enjoy AR
Yes, it does seem that way from all I've read, but there is still something about Dorothea.
posted via 2.29.89.21 user MTD.
message 42998 - 10/02/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: where to enjoy AR
Thanks Peter, interesting. I've heard of The Only Ones. The other band I'm aware of from the Bristol scene is Stackridge, but I suspect they are before the ones your talking about.
posted via 2.29.89.21 user MTD.
message 42997 - 10/02/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: where to enjoy AR
the more I read them there is something about Dorothea that in his writing indicates she has far more depth as a character than is ever revealed to us.

I know I'm repeating myself here, but I have always (since I was old enough to think in those terms) believed that the Callums are, between them, a combined self-portrait of AR. Dick the obsessive, scientific man, as AR was when young, and Dot a gentle satire of the Writer
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42996 - 10/02/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: where to enjoy AR
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/mar/28/maria-mccormack-obituary

My muso friend and Powell co-appreciator is John Perry, lead guitarist with "The Only Ones" and, earlier, if you're aware of the Bristol scene, "The Rat Bites from Hell".
John is one of those punk musicians who loves cricket and good English. Altogether a splendid chap.
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42995 - 10/02/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: where to enjoy AR
Peter, a fascinating post. I agree, the more I read them there is something about Dorothea that in his writing indicates she has far more depth as a character than is ever revealed to us.

Very off topic, can I be nosey and ask who the woman was? I cannot recall a recent passing of one that would fit your description.
posted via 2.29.89.21 user MTD.


message 42994 - 10/02/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: where to enjoy AR
How do others read the series? In bulk? Bite-size chunks?

68 years after first having Swallowdale read to me in a freezing cold (they all were) Victorian house, I "carry" them on an iPad Mini, that lives permanently in my pocket, and read them in bursts, favourite bits. PM tops, followed by WH and parts of WD. This is interspersed with my favourite "grown up" books, Anthony Powell's "Dance to the music of time".
Fascinating contrast in styles; Powell excessively florid, never use five words when ten will do, AR spare and elegant. But both powerfully evocative with vividly drawn characters. AR's best moment the revealing of the kinship of Nancy and the GA, Powell's characters working their way into real life in an extraordinary way- they really are people you've known and tendrils of that experience follow me throughout my otherwise totally non-mystic life (*). But then of course, I have always been in love with Dorothea. Really.
(*)AR exclusivists please skip this bit- it's about Powell.
The other day I went to Kensal Green crematorium, for the funeral of the partner of my rock'n roll Muso friend, a woman known internationally for her hedonism, who died asking for cognac. Afterwards he emailed me to recall a moment in Powell when the narrator encounters Sunny Farebrother, a "downy bird", on the Bakerloo, on the way back from Kensal Green, where he's been attending the funeral service for another character with a complicated part in the "Dance". They talk reflectively about him, and then the narrator gets off and as the train pulls away he sees, though the window, that Sunny has started to smile again. All fine and typical, but the "Powellite" syndrome manifested itself in our wondering, in emails, where Sunny would have got off the train. Sunny being a wealthy widower, we finally settled on Piccadilly, where he would be living in a set at the Albany. The Bakerloo stops there. A life experience confirmed- my friend and I both "know" Sunny Farebrother.
With AR, the "character" I feel I know best is AR himself.
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42993 - 09/29/16
From: Jock, subject: Re: The spirit of Nancy lives on in Swindon!
And according to the newspaper article where I first came across this story, Daisy likes
'raft building, sailing and climbing trees'. As well as the AR link/coincidence(?)
do I detect some subtle Richard Jefferies influence? On the outskirts of Swindon is the
reservoir at Coate where Jefferies's Bevis had his adventures.
posted via 178.43.199.94 user Jock.
message 42992 - 09/29/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: The spirit of Nancy lives on in Swindon!
Quite right! But how interesting that the protester is Daisy.
posted via 2.29.89.21 user MTD.
message 42991 - 09/29/16
From: Jock, subject: The spirit of Nancy lives on in Swindon!
Daisy Edmonds blasts the supermarket for having contrasting slogans on their T-shirts for boys and girls.

While the boys’ shirts feature motifs like ‘Desert adventure awaits’, ‘Hero’ and ‘Think outside the box’, the girls’ tops say ‘Hey!’, ‘Beautiful’ and ‘I feel fabulous.’

"It’s unfair because everyone thinks girls should just be pretty and boys should just be adventurous."

Daisy then fills her arms with hangers from the boys’ section and puts them on the girls’ racks.


posted via 178.43.195.44 user Jock.
message 42990 - 09/27/16
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Re: Who drew the 1970 S&A Puffin paperback maps?
Thanks Alan & Magnus. You are quite right to draw attention to the paperback versions. However when I looked on the shelves of a London bookshop at the beginning of the year, the hardback version still had the Spurrier endpaper.
I was just checking briefly to see if the dust jacket illustration vignettes had changed again. I did not check on how the impression list had changed.

posted via 80.189.180.240 user OwenRoberts.
message 42989 - 09/27/16
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Who drew the 1970 S&A Puffin paperback maps?
The Puffin maps were drawn by Juliet Renny. The full story is in Wayne Hammond's Bibliography. The changes were made by Evgenia, who wanted Penguin (and indeed Cape) to 'expunge from the book all work by Steven Spurrier'. She maintained AR had intended to redraw the maps himself before the Puffin edition, but was prevented by illness. He had done a sketch for a Wild Cat Island map in SD, and Renny used that as a basis.
Spurrier's map lives on, however, and is familiar to all members of TARS. It is used for the cover of Mixed Moss, their annual journal.
posted via 141.0.14.73 user awhakim.
message 42988 - 09/27/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Who drew the 1970 S&A Puffin paperback maps?
Change of topic: we're now on MAPS.

Owen said: Stephen Spurrier’s endpapers still adorn S&A – I wonder why they were never replaced?

This made me go check my shelves. The Puffin paperbacks of the 70s definitely had a re-drawn map, not Spurrier's, and the odd thing is that I don't think it is an AR map either!

The way in which woods are depicted with little trees are very Spurrier-like, totally different to the woods AR draws in the Swallowdale map (curvy shapes to denote multiple trees at once).

The second map which shows just Wild Cat Island has also been given the same treatment. They are both neater and sparser than Spurrier, though the lettering is not AR, and the compass rose is not how either of them would draw it.

Who is this mystery cartographer? The book's credits do not name him/her. It happened between 1966 and 1970 (Puffin only) according to the books I can lay my hands on.
posted via 86.191.65.110 user Magnus.


message 42987 - 09/27/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: where to enjoy AR
AR wrote to Helene Carter several times, commenting favourably on her illustrations. It sounded very genuine. I wonder if there was ever any talk of using her US illustrations for the UK books?

I suppose that would have eaten into AR's royalties! One assumes AR earned more once Spurrier/Webb were abolished.


posted via 86.191.65.110 user Magnus.


message 42986 - 09/26/16
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Re: where to enjoy AR
I first read the S&A series from a new top floor flat (we didn't have penthouses in those days) between Clapham & Streatham. Viewed from the terrace there was an interesting view of bombed out buildings to the rear.
The terrace was surrounded by a very low parapet wall about 18 inches high with no handrails. I could take a deck chair out there to read. However I used to become alarmed when our tabby cat (a grown up Sinbad) used to patrol the parapet wall.
In those days, books I had not been given were sourced from the Clapham Public Library.
I have reread the books many times over the years, gradually collecting more varieties. I have realised that the illustrations do affect the atmosphere of the books. I wonder if I would have read them all, if they had been illustrated by Stephen Spurrier or Clifford Webb.
Spurrier had a more “Water Babies” approach to the illustrations whilst Webb seemed to draw vertically rather than horizontally and lost the serenity and space of the AR drawings.
Helene Carter who illustrated most of the early US books in the AR series, for Lippincott the publishers, seemed to capture the spirit of the books well. Her endpapers, usually included in the dust jackets were very good and in my view excelled those of AR. Stephen Spurrier’s endpapers still adorn S&A – I wonder why they were never replaced?

posted via 80.189.180.240 user OwenRoberts.
message 42985 - 09/26/16
From: Patrick Fox, subject: Re: where to enjoy AR
Used to read them as "comfort reading" whenever the mood took me. More recently I've enjoyed having the excuse of reading them aloud to my own children. As to where, we've managed those readings in reasonably appropriate settings from time to time. Last year I timed it so we were reading Coot Club while, as a family, camping on two open boats on the Broads. I read them Great Northern one summer sailing trip in the Hebrides. And we've managed several of the Lakes books while holidaying in the Lakes. And I remember reading We Didn't Mean to Go to Sea while anchored, not on the east coast, but at least in Salcombe one summer. There is a special something about reading the books in the same sort of setting as they're describing.

Cheers
Patrick
posted via 185.58.164.43 user PJF.


message 42984 - 09/24/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: where to enjoy AR
This is where I get slightly obsessive, I've got copies of them all in hardback (nearly all of them in various editions) and all the Puffin and original Red Fox paperbacks, and I've got reading copies in paperback.

It would be nice to read the hardbacks all the time but too heavy for reading in bed!
posted via 2.28.82.29 user MTD.


message 42983 - 09/24/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Re: where to enjoy AR
That's impressive, Mike. I read them in sequence though I don't really know why as they can all stand alone. Like you, I read WH round Christmas, and I try to read the others at the time of year they're set. Although it's not my favourite, there's always a special sense of anticipation when I start SA and read that familiar opening: "Roger, aged seven, and no longer the youngest of the family. . ." What a feeling to know you've got all 12 books ahead of you. And it has to be the Jonathan Cape hardbacks. too.
posted via 31.51.188.150 user Tiss_Flower.
message 42982 - 09/24/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: where to enjoy AR
I read nearly all of them at least once in a year, and WH near to Christmas - still my favourite.

This year I've read all of them as you would carry out academic reading, noting references, how characters are built up, pointers to how they will be once the books are over.

Both ways change my view of a some of them, WDMTGTS and PM in particular.
posted via 2.28.82.29 user MTD.


message 42981 - 09/23/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: where to enjoy AR
Spent yesterday morning sitting in some public gardens in Lewes, listening to Gabriel Woolf's brilliant reading of GN. What a way to see out summer! Same next week if the weather agrees. Can't think of a better way to while away the time.
How do others read the series? In bulk? Bite-size chunks? As a reward or on a regular basis? Just curious.
posted via 31.51.188.150 user Tiss_Flower.
message 42980 - 09/20/16
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
And in fact every one of Ransome's major characters (SA&D) get an opportunity to demonstrate leadership, frequently despite obstacles, and do.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 42979 - 09/20/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
Dot is a wonderful character, isn't she? Perhaps the most "girly" of AR's girls, but that doesn't mean she's not of equal standing. Her imagination might baffle the others at times, but she's the one the others look to in BS for leadership in the investigation.
posted via 31.51.188.150 user Tiss_Flower.
message 42978 - 09/20/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
Nancy is a fine character, but what interests me most is how he gets Roger so right; interested in steam ships as well as sail, so viewed askance by the others in SA, but the real Roger Altounyan later becomes a pilot instructor with the RAF, and a researcher who pioneers Intal and the spinhaler.
The other really interesting character(s) are Dick and Dot. I think that, between them, they are AR. Like every proper person, I am of course in love with Dot, but she (satirically, gently) represents AR and all authors, and Dick is the obsessive and scientific side. I also suspect that Mrs Barrable is his mum, although none of this is direct, one-for-one. He's an author, and the only place they really exist is in his head, but the coloration is there.
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.
message 42977 - 09/19/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
what is also so subtle about AR's depiction of Nancy is her somewhat rough and ready "sensitive" side. In PP, shw doesn't push Titty when she's distresssd about the dowsing but tries to do it herself and, despite calling Peggy a galoot with every second breath, she reassures her in thunderstorms. All done in her inimitable way. She's forceful but no bully.
posted via 31.51.188.150 user Tiss_Flower.
message 42976 - 09/18/16
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
Nancy has the confidence of being on 'Home Turf' in the Lakes books, but is less certain of her position in SW. It is part of AR's artistry to convey that hesitancy without actually writing it in.
David
posted via 137.147.155.48 user David.
message 42975 - 09/18/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
I find Nancy least appealing in SW, but she is marvellous in PM.
posted via 88.105.80.185 user Mike_Jones.
message 42974 - 09/18/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
Mr. Thewlis, your bicycle-tracks have been noted in the vicinity. Be very afraid.......
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42973 - 09/18/16
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
Very hot green paint.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 42972 - 09/18/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
And remember in GN 'Somehow, with the return of Nancy the gloom that had settled on the Sea Bear had lifted'.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42971 - 09/18/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
"one of the great female characters of ALL literature" I agree with Tiss on this, but you have to admit that if we include all adult literature as well, that makes the competition much stiffer. Nancy is up against the likes of Anna Karenina and Anne of Green Gables, to name but two. The point about Nancy surely is that she is not just a loud-voiced tomboy, but has a sort of 'spiritual' existence which pervades all the AR books, even those in which she does not actually appear. The beauty of AR's writing is that he never painstakingly describes Nancy - instead he just tells us what she does and what she says. Titty's exclamation at the start of Pigeon Post: "It's Nancy . . .she's beginning something already" is one of the most instantly thrilling sentences I have ever read at the start of a book.
posted via 86.182.41.233 user Peter_H.
message 42970 - 09/18/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
I will explain it all to you behind the bikeshed at some point. Bring green paint.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42969 - 09/18/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
I just love the description "this JG person" and that name's going to stick. I was only moderately offended by the 'Gollum' tag, but what worries me far more is TJGP's apparent suggestion that AR's characters can be mucked about with to suit whatever fashion is current. I should add here that TJGP is very much an "AR specialist" herself, having lectured and written about AR in expert style for many years. What's going on? I ask myself. And what on earth is all this "Gotcha - one to me" business all about? Is it one of Nancy's ciphered messages?
posted via 86.182.41.233 user Peter_H.
message 42968 - 09/18/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
Mike Field - Peter H and I are very old friends and have been affectionately trading insults for decades. Apologies to outsiders! And yah boo to Peter as always.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42967 - 09/18/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
A fine analysis of Nancy, Peter. My only quibble? She's surely one of the great female characters of ALL literature. A role model for every generation and for boys as well as girls.
posted via 31.51.188.150 user Tiss_Flower.
message 42966 - 09/17/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
Thank you Peter. Again you saved me writing that myself.

Did you find that 'Gollum' reference as insulting as I did? Or do you happen to know this JG person, and it was more of a private joke between you?
posted via 124.171.144.133 user mikefield.


message 42965 - 09/17/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
Once again, I agree Peter. The older I get with each reading I admire Nancy more and more as a character. Once of my favourite scenes is when she sorts out Sammy for being 'rude' to John in SA (there has to be quite a back story for AR to write such a wonderful verbal demolishing of an adult by a 'child'!)
posted via 2.28.84.54 user MTD.
message 42964 - 09/17/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Film in North America was Re: Review on IMDb
All I can find for a release date in North America is "2016".

I suspect they are evaluating how well it did and the reaction in the UK and Ireland before deciding when and how extensively to release it here. They may decide to go straight to DVD if the omens are not good. Even if it does get released here it may only be in a few cinemas not widespread.

I suspect I may end up seeing it on a Region 2 DVD import played on my computer!
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 42963 - 09/17/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
Gotcha! 1 to me.
We all look forward with enthusiasm to your response when you've seen the film.
It's true that in the film Nancy is the only child significantly changed - but the filmgoing children all rave almost solely about her. Agree that that may be irrelevant to you and other AR specialists.
Re D of E, Mike Dennis is totally right that it's more organised and not at all the only or even desired answer, but as a lonely adolescent (my sister had discovered boys) I could only play around in the fields imagining stories; spurred and aided by the D of E Award, I researched and carried out a 2-week youth-hostelling trip (recruiting a friend eventually), which gave me the chance of making decisions, sorting out food, exploring etc rather than just going home at the end of the day.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42962 - 09/17/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
I agree that the D of E Award Scheme is admirable, but we're getting off the point. I don't think that it is Gollum-ish to believe that Nancy Blackett's character should not be distorted for filmic purposes (if in fact it has been distorted - I have yet to see the film). If Nancy has been portrayed as 'sulky', then that is the exact opposite of the Nancy created by AR - the true Nancy is breezy, optimistic, impetuous, resilient, and she would make short work of anyone near her who was sulking. She is a finely calibrated character, and is AR's major creation. She stands in British children's literature as a classic powerful creation, along with figures such as Long John Silver or Just William, and of course she is also female. To 'adapt' Nancy into a whining teenager is to dismantle the whole of the Swallows & Amazons stories - they just won't work. To justify this on the basis that it might get a few children camping is just not on. (By the way, TARS is irrelevant here.)

posted via 86.182.41.233 user Peter_H.
message 42961 - 09/17/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
Oh No, No!

Perhaps I was lucky, I grew up in the countryside and just did stuff (though admittedly not camping or sailing.) The idea of it all being formalised (D of E, Guides, Scouts etc) would have been totally off-putting.

One of the great delights of AR's works is that the children have their adventures with almost no adult interference or supervision, and the few adults involved let them get on with it (yes, adults arrange things in the background but this is, thankfully, minimal.) AR seemed to understand this, and had an empathy with children when he became an adult.
posted via 2.28.84.54 user MTD.


message 42960 - 09/16/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
Ditto.

posted via 124.171.144.133 user mikefield.
message 42959 - 09/16/16
From: Ross, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
Adam, Do we need to fly over to Britain to see this film? Will it only arrive here in some Amazon pirated DVD?
posted via 184.151.36.6 user rlcossar.
message 42958 - 09/16/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
Well, it was a combination of Swallows & Amazons and D of E Award (I got to Silver) that did it for me. But we're talking the l960s, and the alternative was boredom and whingeing to parents rather than probing deep into the unsuitable internet.
From the TARS website, 'The Society exists to celebrate his life and to promote his interests in exploring, camping, sailing, navigation, leadership, literature and much more.' But there are AR enthusiasts who aren't TARS, and I think vice versa.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42957 - 09/16/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
it's to do with getting children out and camping and trying things for themselves

Like a sort of Duke of Edinburgh's Award?
posted via 86.182.41.233 user Peter_H.


message 42956 - 09/16/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
Hello Gollum -
My thought is that it's to do with getting children out and camping and trying things for themselves, and seeing magical stuff beyond a screen - in fact the film should be prescribed on the NHS; if film-makers make a profit - well, so do I (sometimes) with my work.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42955 - 09/16/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
Very well put Peter, my feelings entirely.
posted via 95.145.229.223 user MTD.
message 42954 - 09/16/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
“New Nancy Interpretation”

I think it should be borne in mind that “Swallows & Amazons” is not a play – it is a novel, which is a very different animal. With a play, be it Shakespeare or whoever, all you need do is stick to the script, and then you can do what you like with the setting, the costumes, have women playing male roles etc etc, but it is considered a no-no to interfere with the script written by the playwright. With a novel, the whole book is in effect the “script” and therefore you should be faithful to it. A “new Nancy interpretation” is, to my mind, a perversion of what Ransome intended. He did not write Nancy as a “sulky pre-teenager” and therefore you should not portray Nancy as such. The fact that it may appeal more to present-day children (and thereby increase box-office appeal) is to my mind irrelevant. I am not concerned with film-maker’s profits.

And I am not concerned with the idea that such a portrayal will generate interest in the original book – it may do or it may not do, but Ransome’s work is not a religion (though heaven knows, people have behaved as if it is) There is no divine duty on us to spread it at all costs, other than by simply encouraging people to read the books. Those books are there, in print, with their own particular magic, for people who want them and that is how it should stay. If no one wants them any more, then that would be very sad, but, well, that's just too bad. I think there will always be readers of Ransome, but I like the idea of the books being a perpetual semi-secret cult, going from age to age, each age finding what they want in them, without “re-interpretation”.

posted via 86.182.41.233 user Peter_H.


message 42953 - 09/16/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: New Disney movie gets it right
It seems they've picked Hawaii and decided to focus on SAILING! Hurrah!


posted via 86.191.65.110 user Magnus.
message 42952 - 09/16/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Film taking fans back to book?
It occurs to me that the film could be considered as similar to Peter Duck in that it might have been a tale made up by the Swallows and Amazons and Captain Flint in later years, in a wherry or round the camp-fire, using the real(ish) children but adding more drama to please Roger. The Russians are modern Black Jakes. So a fiction within a fiction....
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42951 - 09/15/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
Of the (currently) eighteen reviews on that site, ten are broadly in favour of the film and eight not. I haven't bothered to analyse any of the reviews in detail, but a 5:4 split in favour sounds as though people consider the film a success, but only just.

Is that the definition of a B Grade film?
posted via 124.171.144.133 user mikefield.


message 42950 - 09/15/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
Had a look at these reviews too, and again I was very struck by the love-or-hate divide: of the twelve, nine gave 5 out of 5, three gave 2 out of 5.
The reviewer that you cite hasn't clocked that the new Nancy interpretation is what appeals to children, not to the (evidently adult) reviewer.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42949 - 09/15/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
Thanks for this link. Interesting split between ecstatic reviews (usually from people taking children) and negative. I notice that the one young reviewer, hollyscott, picks out the Amazons rather than the Swallows: yep, just as I said in an earlier post - adults love the Walkers, children love the Amazons - very thoughtful casting.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42948 - 09/15/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
There are reviews of the film on the amazon.co.uk listing for the forthcoming DVD release (12 at the time of writing) one is particularly scathing and includes the following -

"... [the] characters were changed to suit modern adult ideas of childhood - no longer are the Walkers the capable mutually supportive team who know how to avoid the dangers of jibing when sailing, how to cook over an open fire, how to fish and prepare their catch etc - now they bicker, whinge and blame each other when things go wrong. Only Tatty (Titty) comes near the original and even she screams unnecessarily! Nancy (wouldn't children understand the "pirates are ruthless" joke these days?) has been turned into a sulky pre-teenager instead of a feisty Amazon ..."
posted via 95.149.130.98 user MTD.


message 42947 - 09/15/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Review on IMDb
I found this somewhat encouraging review of the film on on IMDb, I have posted the link you have to scroll down to the one by Sara.

A couple of quotes.

"Having never read the book and despite having bought a copy to do so before watching the film, my daughter grabbed the book off me and avidly read it before I had chance!"

"I now need to revisit the lakes and remind my children adventures don't start on your phone! My daughter who had read the book also loved the film."

posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 42946 - 09/11/16
From: Mik, subject: Re: The 'My Word' stories - was 'Secret Water' News
Sorry, the link's not working. But you can see it here --

https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Utter-My-Word-Collection/dp/B002SK5K2I

As I said, though, my copy is a 1983 hard-cover.
posted via 124.171.144.133 user mikefield.


message 42945 - 09/11/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: The 'My Word' stories - was 'Secret Water' News
This particular volume does indeed have an Introduction and it is to this omnibus volume itself, not just to the first book ('Kayak') of the four that it contains. (None of the individual books has its own introduction, at least not in this volume -- each just dives straight into the stories.)

The introduction commences --

Readers who have never heard the radio programme in which these stories were first brought forth are due a word of explanation.

and concludes --

... for a great many years now we have been faced each week with the agony of having to knock out a reasonably coherent story based upon a given quotation -- however unpromising the quotation's syllables appeared at first sight.
This volume is a final medley of the squeaks produced by the pips being thus squeezed.

In the body, the authors mention that in the very first show the two quotations used were "Let not poor Nellie starve", and "Dead, dead, and never called me Mother!", and I guess that's what you might have been remembering. All in all, I think my omnibus volume is the one you've been thinking of.

(My copy looks like this one, a 1984 reprint, but without the white pull-quote or logo at the bottom.)

posted via 124.171.144.133 user mikefield.


message 42944 - 09/11/16
From: Jon, subject: Re: The 'My Word' stories - was 'Secret Water' News
That sounds like the one I was thinking of; page count's about right, too. Most of my paper books are still in storage. I believe one of the various volumes included, as part of the forward, an explanation of how the stories got started (although that one may have been "Dead. Dead. And never called me 'Mother'!")
posted via 69.140.32.156 user Jon.
message 42943 - 09/11/16
From: Ross, subject: Re: Film taking fans back to book?
No one really expects films to completely mimic the original books, Maybe the newly interested will like the books just as much on their own
posted via 184.151.36.6 user rlcossar.
message 42942 - 09/11/16
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Film taking fans back to book?
The same is true of Hampshire libraries. All the books are on loan or reserved, but the DVD of the 1974 film has been missing from Lymington branch for over a year. That's Sophie's local library!
posted via 141.0.14.146 user awhakim.
message 42941 - 09/11/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Film taking fans back to book?
Why is Mrs Walker Australian?
Why is Captain Flint fat?
Where are the Amazon's masks?
Who is Titty?
posted via 95.150.15.238 user MTD.
message 42940 - 09/10/16
From: Mike Field, subject: The 'My Word' stories - was 'Secret Water' News
A bit of research from my end reveals that in fact the title of the book I have (a hard-cover) is The Complete And Utter "My Word" Collection, published by Methuen in 1983.

On the flyleaf, books already having been published are shown as --

You Can't Have Your Kayak And Heat It -- 1973
Upon My Word -- 1974
Take My Word For It -- 1978
Oh, My Word -- 1980

and also The "My Word" Stories, 1976, incorporating the first two above.

My (1983) version purports to contain the stories from all four books above, and lists them in the Contents pages under those book titles. The page count is 397 pages. The contents for each book listed in my copy amount to, respectively, 31, 28, 30, and 30 stories. Most stories run onto three pages. But nowhere in the book is the 'Kayak' shown. :-(

Perhaps The Utterly Complete "My Word" Stories is a still-later version, with yet more stories?
posted via 124.171.144.133 user mikefield.


message 42939 - 09/10/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Film taking fans back to book?
I'm afraid there are going to be a lot of disappointed readers --

Where are the spies?
Where are the guns?
Where's the train?
Where's that sea-plane?

:(
posted via 124.171.144.133 user mikefield.


message 42938 - 09/10/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Film taking fans back to book?
Just checked my county library availability of S&A. All copies in every format out on loan, overdue or ordered. Fantastic.
posted via 86.161.51.249 user Tiss_Flower.
message 42937 - 09/09/16
From: Jon, subject: Re: 'Secret Water' News
There are actually several. If I remember correctly, the most complete one is The Utterly Complete "My Word" Stories, but even that one omits some. So don't grab the first "Complete My Word Stories" you see - check the page counts (all I've seen have one story per page, so a page count will give you a good idea of the degree of completeness).
posted via 69.140.32.156 user Jon.
message 42936 - 09/08/16
From: Ross, subject: Re: Graeme Kendall solo yachtsman
Yes we consider the Artic Islands as a part of Canada. Global warming and the loss of artic ice is opening it all up and who has the resources to police it all.
posted via 184.151.36.6 user rlcossar.
message 42935 - 09/08/16
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: 'Secret Water' News
Thanks for the tip Mike; I didn't know that there was a book of the 'My Word' stories. I'll have to go and look for it.
posted via 121.214.155.96 user David.
message 42934 - 09/08/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: 'Secret Water' News
Yes, one of Frank Muir's 'My Word' stories was certainly about leaving no tern unstoned. (At this distance in time I don't remember the Tintern Abbey bit, but he was certainly capable of it and I'm sure you're right.)

I've always found it odd that his story about not having your kayak and heating it was used as the title of the Complete Collection of My Word stories, and yet that particular story was not included in the book....
posted via 124.171.144.133 user mikefield.


message 42933 - 09/08/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Should be - Strange Comment
'Swallows and Amazons' as a shorthand phrase for good parenting and bringing-up of children

I agree with JG that the reference here to Swallows & Amazons is ironic, but this usage is not new - it has gone into the modern language. I know of a married couple who split up - they had children, and they were both remarried to people who also had children from previous marriages (this situation is by no means unique). About two years ago one of the mothers described to me the awkward confusion at holiday weekends, when she hardly knew which child was which and groups of siblings were bussed all over the place and hurriedly handed over in doorways because their parent did not want to meet a former spouse. She sighed and said "It's hardly Swallows and Amazons, is it?"
posted via 86.182.41.104 user Peter_H.


message 42932 - 09/07/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Should be - Strange Comment
Thanks Tiss, sums up my view entirely.
posted via 95.146.63.143 user MTD.
message 42931 - 09/07/16
From: Claire, subject: Tern book
I have not seen my copy of that book in years, but I remember that my favorite illustrations were Slattern and Tern catholic. Anyone who likes clever puns should try to find a copy of "A Book of Terns".
posted via 68.117.20.247 user Claire_Morgan.
message 42930 - 09/07/16
From: Jon, subject: Re: 'Secret Water' News
I believe it was Frank Muir who did a wonderful riff on the subject as one of his My Word stories, even working in Tintern Abbey.
posted via 69.140.32.156 user Jon.
message 42929 - 09/07/16
From: Alan Hakim, subject: S&A is hip?
I was in the Soho Hotel (London) today, which gives the impression of being new and trendy. I was delighted to find that the lift is decorated with several display frames of Puffin Book covers. TWO frames contain the cover of SA.
In the Gents, the display was of the new ironic Ladybird "The Hipster" book.
Meanwhile, Random House have issued a new paperback of SA with a cover derived from the film poster.
posted via 141.0.14.218 user awhakim.
message 42928 - 09/07/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Should be - Strange Comment
:-) [smiley icon]. Of course you'll hate part of the film, but I do guarantee that you'll feel warm all over about some of the enchanting sequences of the old-fashioned children sailing and camping; lovely casting, especially the two youngest.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42927 - 09/07/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Re: Should be - Strange Comment
Now I can accuse myself of being unclear. I'll watch the film when it comes to TV as, yes, pretty much anything that keeps AR in the public eye is worthwhile - but I won't go to see the film. Even that's disingenuous as I don't go to any films! Also hypocritical as I'll be doing what I've more or less condemned a TV reviewer for! Can I get much worse?
My only excuse is that my love and respect for AR means that I bridle if I think people play fast and loose with his work, especially if it's dismissed as old fashioned children's stories. I'm glad If I'm proved wrong by the film and an AR-friendly journalist.

posted via 86.161.51.249 user Tiss_Flower.
message 42926 - 09/07/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Should be - Strange Comment
Yes, I do agree that it's an unclear sentence, perhaps written in haste, and the reviewer has certainly risked the ironic point not being taken by her readers. I did want to absolve her, though, of any ignorant attribution of speeding cars and grandmothers' doorsteps to the S&A canon. As another commentator has said, at least we can take pleasure in the fact that this reviewer among many other writers uses 'Swallows and Amazons' as a shorthand phrase for good parenting and bringing-up of children.
In the new film, incidentally (which I know you're not going to see), there are some lovely exchanges, e.g. between Mrs. Walker and Mrs. Jackson, on wholesome hands-off parenting. And in the film there is some arguing among the Swallows! Most realistic.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42925 - 09/07/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Re: Should be - Strange Comment
Perhaps it's the construction of the quoted sentence since it seemed to me as if the reviewer thinks the children in S&A are dumped on their grandmother's doorstep. That's what I was reacting to. Perhaps I shouldn't, not having read the review.
posted via 86.161.51.249 user Tiss_Flower.
message 42924 - 09/07/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Should be - Strange Comment
A most likely explanation Peter, the new film has maybe caused some to re-think their view of AR's work (rather than just assuming!)
posted via 95.146.63.205 user MTD.
message 42923 - 09/07/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Should be - Strange Comment
Tiss - the reviewer's sentence about grandmothers and S&A is IRONIC. What she is saying is that the mother claims to be trying to bring up her children as she was, i.e. in a good S&A style, but that in Motherland we can see that in practice she is INSTEAD yelling at them and dumping them on their grandmother's doorstep. The reviewer is assuming that Sunday Times readers, like the reviewer herself, know what the S&A reference invokes and so will mentally insert '(NOT)' after 'just like they do'. She is being ironic!! and is contrasting the S&A way of life with the speeding car/ grandmother/ doorstep scenario enacted by the mother.
I do hope that this clarifies the sentence for you. No way is she suggesting that grandmother's doorsteps come into S&A - she is saying precisely the opposite, correctly using S&A as an example of good upbringing in CONTRAST to the Motherland approach.
End of literary-criticism piece!
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42922 - 09/07/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Re: Should be - Strange Comment
It would be great if the reviewer decided to check that her S&A reference was correct, went back to the source, then read all twelve (instead of watching TV?!).
posted via 86.161.51.249 user Tiss_Flower.
message 42921 - 09/07/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Should be - Grandparents
Active grandparents in the Walker/Blackett/Callum families might have been expected to play a role, given that only two of the six parents are available during the school holidays (one dead, one at sea, two digging), but available grandparents cosseting their grandchildren would have got in the way of the plot. Mrs. W's parents would be in Australia, anyway, and perhaps Asian Flu carried off the others along with Bob Blackett.

AR's comments on his grandfathers in Chapter 1 of his Autobiography are affectionate but critical. Perhaps he didn't see them as great role models, though the Australian connection on his mother's side is interesting.
posted via 88.110.95.28 user Mike_Jones.


message 42920 - 09/06/16
From: John Wilson, subject: Graeme Kendall solo yachtsman
Solo yachtsman Graeme Kendall from Christchurch, New Zealand has just published a book on his solo yachting “To the Ice and Beyond”. He sailed the Northwest Passage in 2010 (after failing in 2005) so was the 140th vessel since Roald Amundsen did it in 1903-06. He was the first to do it solo and non-stop, in a record 12 days. Unlike 2005, it was mostly ice-free in 2010. His book has advice on planning a serious (solo) sailing expedition: Rules No 1 to 10 are “Don’t fall overboard”. So he always peed into a chemical toilet, not off the back of the yacht (Too dangerous). And describing an Atlantic cyclone: Plan A: weather it out; Plan B: run away to Plan F: abandon ship .. because that’s the point when your’e f......”

NB: Canada regards the Northwest Passage as Canadian waters, though the United States regards it as international waters, and did not seek permission for sending the Coastguard supply ship “Polar Sea” through it in 1985.

posted via 202.49.156.36 user hugo.
message 42919 - 09/06/16
From: John Wilson, subject: The Duke of Westminster on "Swallows ans Amazons"
Swallows and Amazons: Gerald Grosvenor the 6th Duke of Westminster (died August 9) was bought up in Ulster, living on the only inhabited island in Lough Erne. He was closest to a keeper, not his “somewhat distant” parents and reflected that “My childhood was the nearest thing to Swallows and Amazons one could possibly imagine .... There wasn’t one unhappy moment. I thought I’d spend the rest of my life there.” But at 15 his father inherited the title and they moved to Eaton Hall in Cheshire (quoted in the Times obituary; reprnted in the Dominion Post, Wellington NZ which is owned by Fairfax Media, so uses overseas obituaries from the Times, the Telegraph Group or the Washington Post).
posted via 202.49.156.36 user hugo.
message 42918 - 09/06/16
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: 'Secret Water' News
The illustrations are all of the phrases of course. So you can just imagine "left tern", "right tern", and "comintern" all dressed appropriately. "Tern of the Century" is of course on the cover of Time magazine. And "no tern left unstoned" is what you might expect. IMO the author and illustrator did justice to the opportunity.

posted via 24.156.62.154 user dthewlis.
message 42917 - 09/06/16
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Should be - Grandparents
When Roger asks Old Billy about Young Billy "Is he your son?" Old Billy says that he’s "got sons and grandsons of his own": (SA13). Slater Bob says "My father was a miner before me, and his father before him" (PP3). And as mentioned the Turner grandparents: Maria Turner writes to Mary (Molly) Blackett of "the tact that was characteristic of your grandfather" (PM30).
posted via 202.49.156.36 user hugo.
message 42916 - 09/06/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: 'Secret Water' News
"No Right Tern" -- are you familiar with "The Book of Terns"? Every page a similar pun with wonderful illustrations. But I digress.

Well, as a digression, a pleasant one.
But with the rich tapestry of English homonyms, it seems pretty inevitable.
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42915 - 09/06/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Should be - Strange Comment
I wonder if the reviewer is riding on the publicity due to the film, thinking of the wrong book, misremembering S&A, or not very good at research. Or does a grandmother pop up in the film? All in all, not very reassuring.

Don't you think that maybe it's just shorthand for "left to their own devices"? If so, it's probably a tribute to the reach of AR's stories that they finish up in a reviewer's kitbag?

posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42914 - 09/06/16
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Should be - Strange Comment
Nancy's and Peggy's great-grandfather is mentioned by the GA in her letter to Mrs Blackett at the end of PM.
posted via 95.145.225.158 user eclrh.
message 42913 - 09/06/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Should be - Strange Comment
Tiss - a quick google shows that the review is of Motherland on BBC2; the reference to S&A is a passing one re the book (not film), referring it seems to the mother in Motherland's desire to bring up her children nannyless as she was, which the reviewer compares (yelled at in speeding car/ dumped on doorstep) with what perhaps a mother might dream of doing with her children (S&A). Nothing to do with the film!
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42912 - 09/06/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Should be - Strange Comment
Good point about missing grandparents. On that front generally, I always feel how poignant it is that the Amazons' father is dead. How lucky they are to have a first-class certificated uncle, even if one largely absent. The new film shows touchingly the tenderness between grumpy Uncle Jim and the girls.
PS Did you know that 'first-class certificated' appears in Jude the Obscure (p123 in my edition)?
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42911 - 09/06/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Re: Should be - Strange Comment
I wonder if the reviewer is riding on the publicity due to the film, thinking of the wrong book, misremembering S&A, or not very good at research. Or does a grandmother pop up in the film? All in all, not very reassuring.
posted via 86.161.51.249 user Tiss_Flower.
message 42910 - 09/06/16
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: 'Secret Water' News
"No Right Tern" -- are you familiar with "The Book of Terns"? Every page a similar pun with wonderful illustrations. But I digress.
posted via 24.156.62.154 user dthewlis.
message 42909 - 09/06/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Should be - Strange Comment
Sorry everyone, filled in the boxes the wrong way!
posted via 95.149.130.12 user MTD.
message 42908 - 09/06/16
From: Strange Comment!, subject: Mike Dennis
A new comedy starts on BBC2 TV tonight at 10.00pm called 'Motherland'.

In a positive preview in The Sunday Times Culture magazine Victoria Segal says of the main character who wants to bring up her children as she was

"That means being yelled at in a speeding car before being dumped on their grandmother's doorstep, just like they do in Swallows and Amazons."

It also made me think that there are no mention of any grandparents in the books, just aunts and uncles.
posted via 95.149.130.12 user MTD.


message 42907 - 09/05/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: 'Secret Water' News
Lapwing Lane?

"No Right Tern"?
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42906 - 09/05/16
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: 'Secret Water' News
I rather fancy "Mastodon Mansions" - good serve.
posted via 24.156.62.154 user dthewlis.
message 42905 - 09/05/16
From: JG, subject: Re: 2016 Film Score
There's a detailed review of the new film score on http://swallowsandamazons.info/2016/09/04/swallows-and-amazons-soundtrack-review-movie-music-uk/.
What/who, BTW, is swallowsandamazons.info? No clue on the website. Very mysterious.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42904 - 09/05/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: AR the angler
I meant someone who has no interest in angling. I have some friends who have, but I tried it in 1942, caught nothing, and gave up. I do agree that we ought to hope children would want to try, but I don't set a good example.

Do you think it might be a generational thing? My dad was a very keen fisherman when he was young. He would tell me about living by the Saone, in France, a great green lazy river, spending happy hours fishing. But I was a happy post-Blitz Londoner and although I could see his fondness for the memory, it never attracted me. Sitting on a river bank watching a float didn't cut it compared to playing on the local bomb site- a magic place, full of mystery and treasure among the bomb weed.
Much later (a decade later) I stayed with a school friend whose father was a keen fisherman. I got reasonably good at casting a line across a river (on the Isle of Wight, I seem to remember). But I never caught anything, and I realised anyway that this wasn't the point. The point was the river, and the quiet company. Still not for me.
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42903 - 09/04/16
From: Ross, subject: Re: 'Secret Water' News
Plenty of boats to name streets after
posted via 184.151.36.165 user rlcossar.
message 42902 - 09/04/16
From: Jon, subject: Re: 'Secret Water' News
So what's wrong with Daisy Lane or Dee Place. They probably wouldn't get many takers for homes on Dum Square, I'll admit.
posted via 23.31.108.73 user Jon.
message 42901 - 09/04/16
From: Jon, subject: Re: 'Secret Water' News
So what's wrong with Daisy Lane or Dee Place. They probably wouldn't get many takers for homes on Dum Square, I'll admit.
posted via 23.31.108.73 user Jon.
message 42900 - 09/04/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Re: AR the angler
Fear not, I've never bought anything from that monster nor do I intend to. My copy came via one of that year's REAL Amazon subscribers. Looking at my copy now, I see it was 2011.
posted via 86.161.51.249 user Tiss_Flower.
message 42899 - 09/04/16
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: AR the angler
I didn't think I was being ambiguous, but I meant someone who has no interest in angling. I have some friends who have, but I tried it in 1942, caught nothing, and gave up. I do agree that we ought to hope children would want to try, but I don't set a good example.
I am intrigued to know how you got your copy of Fair Cops. I hope not from amazon.co.uk where it's on offer second-hand for £145. You can get a new copy for £33, and that includes a year's subscription to TARS.
posted via 141.0.14.146 user awhakim.
message 42898 - 09/04/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: 'Secret Water' News
I was wondering something similar, and knowing how they run things none of them will have read the book anyway!
posted via 95.149.130.12 user MTD.
message 42897 - 09/04/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: 'Secret Water' News
Presumably the surnames? Titty Terrace, Susan Street, Roger Road, Mastodon Mansions, etc. might not appeal to all buyers.
posted via 92.25.156.231 user Mike_Jones.
message 42896 - 09/04/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Re: AR the angler
Very interesting observation about the drop in subscriptions for "Fair Cops", going some way to proving that we are less keen on AR the angler. Does the film have the fishing episode at all? If we AR enthusiasts hope that children will be encouraged to sail after seeing the film and, more importantly, reading the book(s), would we hope they took up fishing too? Probably not. There might well be modern concerns about a child alone on a river bank for hours at a time. Still I feel that something would be missing from the total AR experience.
I agree that some of his fishing articles have been a good read for this non-angler too but, likewise, not the statistics.
I'm not clear though, Alan. Are you ardent in not fishing or armchair fishing?
posted via 86.161.51.249 user Tiss_Flower.
message 42895 - 09/04/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: 'Secret Water' News
As a resident of 'the town' in SW I notice the local newspaper has reported that Tendring District Council is considering the following -

'STREETS on a new housing estate could be named after characters in Secret Water - a book by Swallows and Amazons author Arthur Ransome.'

The development of house and shops is on the site of an old caravan park (for those that know the area more or less opposite the church.) They are also considering using the names of the islands in the Backwaters.
posted via 95.149.130.12 user MTD.


message 42894 - 09/04/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Bicycle tyre brands- hotting up.
Surely to say that things are hotting up, in the context of anything competitive, is still common parlance?

I'm not sure I ever used the expression myself, but can't imagine a time when I wouldn't have known at once what it meant. It's such a clear image, it must have been around for centuries.
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42893 - 09/03/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Bicycle tyre brands
The term "hotted up" has certainly been in use, in my family, in Australia, for over a century. Whether my forebears invented it themselves, or imported it from the UK back in the mid-1800s, I have no idea.
posted via 124.171.144.133 user mikefield.
message 42892 - 09/03/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: AR the angler
"As an ardent non-fisherman myself, what I find surprising is that almost all his articles are good reading even for an outsider."

... as distinct from the fisherman's bible, Isaak Walton's 'The Compleat Angler' which, to this ardent non-fisherman at least, is about the dullest book ever written.
posted via 124.171.144.133 user mikefield.


message 42891 - 09/03/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Bicycle tyre brands
Surely to say that things are hotting up, in the context of anything competitive, is still common parlance?
posted via 92.25.156.231 user Mike_Jones.
message 42890 - 09/03/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Bicycle tyre brands
Surely to say that things are hotting up, in the context of anything competitive, is still common parlance?
posted via 92.25.156.231 user Mike_Jones.
message 42889 - 09/03/16
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Bicycle tyre brands
"Hotted up" was common parlance among my parents, aunts and uncles and their neighbours.
posted via 2.28.193.31 user eclrh.
message 42888 - 09/03/16
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: AR the angler
I'm not sure that AR enthusiasts are on the whole very keen on the fishing articles. Certainly there was a sharp drop (20%) in the number of subscriptions for Fair Cops compared with AR's Foreign Legion the previous year. On the other hand, fishers with a sense of history greatly revere AR's memory.
The first AR fishing collection was Rod and Line (1929). AR on Fishing (1994) was an anthology put together by Jeremy Swift, who spoke at the TARS Literary Weekend in 1993. In Fair Cops we tried to collect all the articles together that hadn't been reprinted in the earlier books. You will find a complete list in pp.398-405 and if you want to have the full set of articles, you will have to look for a copy of R&L.
As an ardent non-fisherman myself, what I find surprising is that almost all his articles are good reading even for an outsider. The only articles I found really dull were the annual statistical round-up. I often wish that more enthusiasts were prepared to take the risk of reading him on fishing.
posted via 141.0.14.144 user awhakim.
message 42887 - 09/03/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Bicycle tyre brands
The OED has 'hotted' as colloquial, usually followed by 'up'. So it would seem AR's usage was quite common, but we all (well, I assume so) know what he meant.
posted via 95.149.130.12 user MTD.
message 42886 - 09/03/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: AR the angler
I have 2 books concerned with AR's angling, "Fair Cops and Glowworms" and "AR on Fishing" which I admit to only dipping into occasionally, despite enjoying the fishing in the books, especially in BS. Is AR the angler as revered as AR the novelist and sailor by other AR enthusiasts?
posted via 86.161.51.249 user Tiss_Flower.
message 42885 - 09/03/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Bicycle tyre brands
I think we should be careful of proceeding from a particular Ransome usage to assume that it was a more general but now passed usage.
My family sometimes use odd words or catchphrases for things or actions, not because that is what we learned in school or from other families but because someone, sometime in the past, used that word and it caught the fancy of the hearers and they continued to use it perhaps to recall the amusement or perhaps to baffle outsiders.

Now, of course, having made the claim I am trying to recall one of those family words...

One of us in the bath playing with a small boat referred to it as a "sinking drailer". After that anything that wasn't going well or looked like foundering was either called or likened to a sinking drailer. If I had written that in a book and been allowed by my editor to let it pass, no doubt my legions of fans would be discussing exactly what a drailer was, how did it sink and why wasn't the word in the OED?

Perhaps Arthur or one of his siblings asked for something to be "hotted up" on occasion and it became a piece of the Ransome family language which he shared with us.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 42884 - 09/02/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Bicycle tyre brands
That's an interesting point Dave. The odd thing is, that over the years of reading I've never noticed and still understood. The most obvious one that has been mentioned here before is 'hotted'.

All the one's I've come across I've checked in my Shorter Oxford dictionary (an edition from the 1980/90s) and none of them have been marked 'archaic'. I'll compile a list to post here and show it to a friend of mine who is 98 and see what she thinks.
posted via 95.145.229.248 user MTD.


message 42883 - 09/02/16
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Bicycle tyre brands
Were AR's spellings and such like out of fashion when the stories were set (not necessarily when they were written)?
posted via 24.156.62.154 user dthewlis.
message 42882 - 09/02/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Bicycle tyre brands
A good spot Magnus!

In my recent re-readings I have noticed things such as that and wondered why AR makes the point (and his use of English, never incorrect but spellings and such like that have fallen out of fashion.)
posted via 95.145.229.248 user MTD.


message 42881 - 09/02/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Bicycle tyre brands
I have recently enjoyed reading "Raffles: The Amateur Cracksman" by E.W. Hornung (published 1899). Whilst I often see small things in books which make me think of Ransome, this one jumped out at me more than the usual, and I had to share it.

The story is about two gentlemen criminals, and in this chapter they deliberately chose Dunlop tyres for their bikes when robbing houses.

I had my eye on the road all the way from Ripley to Cobham, and there were more Dunlop marks than any other kind. Bless you, yes, they all leave their special tracks, and we don't want ours to be extra special; the Dunlop's like a rattlesnake, and the Palmer leaves telegraph wires, but surely the serpent is more in our line.

Will I ever tire (ha ha!) of spotting these?!
posted via 109.155.77.108 user Magnus.


message 42880 - 09/01/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Who Was The Eldest?
Many thanks for that Alan, I had looked at Bill Wright's table of ages but I think it was one of those occasions when you get an idea in your head and it pushes reason aside (it was Susan's maturity in WDMTGTS that started it.)

I have a copy of both 'Master Storyteller' and 'Best of Childhood' and I should have looked there first!
posted via 95.145.229.248 user MTD.


message 42879 - 09/01/16
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Who Was The Eldest?
This question comes up here almost as often as Beckfoot plumbing. Bill Wright has made a comprehensive attempt to tabulate the ages in All Things Ransome.
The ultimate source, other than internal evidence, is AR's own notes. One, used when he was writing SA, is cited in Roger Wardale's Arthur Ransome: Master Storyteller (p.38) and shows John 12, Susan 10, Titty 9, Roger 7 and Vic (who doesn't count) 1½.
The note is printed verbatim in the earlier Best of Childhood (p.22). That book was from Amazon Publications, and only available to TARS members - and in any case, it's out of print. In the same book, p.303, there is a table headed CHRONOLOGY, starting with SA ("Roger 7, Titty 9, Susan 11, Peggy 11, John 12, Nancy 12"), giving the dates of the events in each book up to PM ("R 10, T12, S14, J 15, D 13 [Dorothea?], D12, N 15, P 14"). The whole series, SA to PM, runs from Summer 1930 to Summer 1933. (This was after AR had failed to get Cape to change the date of the climb of Kanchenjunga to fit the 1929 date in SA.) PP to BS, which took from 1935 to 1940 to write, all take place in the 1932 summer holidays.
posted via 141.0.14.219 user awhakim.
message 42878 - 09/01/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: 2016 film, now that we've all seen it...
Grandson''s mother (my daughter), who sailed with me and at university, has her eye on a local water sports course for him next spring, which includes sailing; my other daughter is also expressing an interest in sailing again, though her son is still younger than Bridget.

I have had to defer plans to sell my boat....

posted via 92.25.156.231 user Mike_Jones.


message 42877 - 09/01/16
From: JG, subject: Re: 2016 film, now that we've all seen it...
This is a brilliant post, Mike J, including a detailed interview with a target audience member who has also seen the 1974 film. Thanks! I agree with all of it - e.g. Roger in the new film is a really bright spark, and ANYTHING would be an improvement on the cringe-making Fraser (the only serious failing of the 1974 film).
I hope your grandson gets to go sailing soon! And starts to read the AR books. If he liked the Russian subplot he might like one of the ones with a dangerous 'enemy' - Pigeon Post, Peter Duck, Missee Lee.
Thanks again.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42876 - 09/01/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: 2016 film, now that we've all seen it...
Hurrah! Who cares which film or book is best: someone now wants to go sailing.

I call that a result.
posted via 81.129.151.56 user Magnus.


message 42875 - 08/31/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: 2016 film, now that we've all seen it...
An interesting couple of days with my eight-year-old grandson. Yesterday we watched the 1974 film, and had a look at it again this morning before going to see the new film. He has had some of SA read to him, I believe, but does not know the book.

Asked which he preferred, he said the new film, because it was funnier; he was also gripped by the Russian spy sub-plot. He preferred the Roger in the new film - the nearest character to him in age - because the 1974 one seemed a bit dim. What he missed in the new film was any real emphasis on the detail of sailing a boat; he didn't see any knots being tied. Much more important than any of this, he wants to go sailing.

For myself, I thought the new SA worked well as an adventure film for children, and thought the Walker children were consistent with AR's characters, as were the Amazons except for looking so weird both with and without their masks. Peggy and Tatty were outstanding.

The adult performances were pretty good, and Rafe Spall was a great improvement on the appalling Ronald Fraser.

As to the new film being funnier, I think my grandson was right. There is something rather earnest about the 1974 film.
posted via 92.25.156.231 user Mike_Jones.


message 42874 - 08/31/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Who Was The Eldest?
Despite AR telling us (see Magnus' post) there is the matter that girls often mature mentally sooner than boys - don't know it that is still true though, seems to be the case with exam results here in the UK.
posted via 95.145.229.248 user MTD.
message 42873 - 08/31/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Who Was The Eldest?
Thanks Magnus, as I posted that question something nagged the back of my mind that told me I was wrong!
posted via 95.145.229.248 user MTD.
message 42872 - 08/31/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Who Was The Eldest?
Open Swallowdale to chapter 1 and read:

"John, the eldest of the four of them, said nothing. He was too busy with the sailing, now that Swallow had left the shelter of the bay and had begun to beat down the lake against the southerly wind."

(Now you see why ebooks are so useful; I did that search in 5 seconds. Of course, they don't smell right, though....)
posted via 81.129.151.56 user Magnus.


message 42871 - 08/31/16
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: New Film Opening Week End
Dave, I think the best place to try would be Southampton; not far from Lyndhurst and with a multi-screen cinema and good transport links.
By the way I presume you meant Lymington and not Leamington. Quite a distance apart.
posted via 109.150.84.218 user MartinH.
message 42870 - 08/31/16
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Who Was The Eldest?
I have once or twice wondered about this. As John's name usually comes first I assume he is the eldest. In most families children get listed in descending order of age. Probably because after one child it is "father, mother and A" after the second child is born it becomes "father, mother, A and B" etc.
posted via 109.150.84.218 user MartinH.
message 42869 - 08/31/16
From: Geraint Lewis, subject: Re: New Film Opening Week End
The film's official website, below, has the showtimes. It should be updated tomorrow (Thursday), when the cinemas release their schedules for the next week.
posted via 86.181.138.7 user Geraint_Lewis.
message 42868 - 08/30/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Who Was The Eldest?
Having re-read the twelve once more something occurred to me.

Apart from Roger and Bridget, we have no concrete references in the books to the ages of the main characters. Yet it is always assumed that John is the eldest of the Swallows, why?

In my reading I have begun to get the impression that Susan is obviously far more mature than John, and in the latter books the idea that she could be older.
posted via 95.145.229.248 user MTD.


message 42867 - 08/30/16
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: New Film Opening Week End
Does anyone know of a movie theatre near Lyndhurst that will be showing the new S&A film next Thursday/Friday September 8/9? I'm going to be in Lyndhurst and might conceivably squeak in the film -- if it's anywhere near. As nearly as I can tell from California there isn't a functioning movie venue in Lyndhurst at this point, possibly Leamington or Christchurce?
posted via 24.156.62.154 user dthewlis.
message 42866 - 08/30/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: AR’s Achievement
Interestingly, WDMTGTS is the one book of the twelve that I have come to appreciate much more as an adult. On recent re-reading all of Swallows develop emotionally and reveal more of themselves in the seriousness of the situation they are in.
posted via 2.28.84.7 user MTD.
message 42865 - 08/30/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Re: AR’s Achievement
Serendipity gave us AR, thank Biology. Of course, AR's practical research gave him the overarching plot, but yes, it's the children's actions which make it believable, especially John's. It's almost what AR doesn't do that makes this story so realistically exciting. He doesn't have the children rescuing drowning sailors (except the kitten) or thwarting pirates (people smugglers today). John proves himself courageous and responsible in getting his siblings to safety by simply sailing a boat. Some people might say "so where's the tension? The adventure in that?" All I would say to them is read and believe. I still read it with a sense of danger and relief.
posted via 86.161.53.126 user Tiss_Flower.
message 42864 - 08/30/16
From: JG, subject: Re: 2016 Film Score
The composer was at the preview screening at the BFI, and the children were eagerly asking him how he deals with making the music for the scary bits.
posted via 86.152.147.211 user JG.
message 42863 - 08/29/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: 2016 Film Score
Just about every aspect of the new S&A film has been discussed except the sound track. Well, there was an interview with Ilan Eshkeri, who composed the score, on BBC Radio 3 today. You can hear it at:- (there are marker posts to indicate where the Eshkeri interview starts)

Eshkeri interview

posted via 86.182.41.19 user Peter_H.


message 42862 - 08/29/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: AR’s Achievement
I have experienced, and heard of, much stranger coincidences than the Swallows meeting their father in Flushing. Life is full of them. I have never had any problem accepting this episode as real.
posted via 86.182.41.19 user Peter_H.
message 42861 - 08/29/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: AR’s Achievement
Serendipity is virtually essential, and therefore excusable, in novels of action. The important thing is the plausibility of the children's actions, and AR gets this absolutely right in WDMTGTS.
posted via 88.110.85.12 user Mike_Jones.
message 42860 - 08/29/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Re: AR’s Achievement
I can even believe that having experienced a number of serendipitous meetings that might not have happened had I or they not glanced up or back at just the right moment. But I haven't done a quayside leap.
posted via 86.161.53.126 user Tiss_Flower.
message 42859 - 08/29/16
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: AR’s Achievement
AR is so good that the plot of WDMTGTS doesn't seem implausible (except perhaps the kitten?).

I would have thought the least plausible part was the arrival in the same port their father was leaving, and their sight of him at precisely the last moment for him to do a quayside leap.
posted via 2.28.193.31 user eclrh.


message 42858 - 08/29/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Re: AR’s Achievement
AR is so good that the plot of WDMTGTS doesn't seem implausible (except perhaps the kitten?). It should be part of the Duke of Edinburgh award!
posted via 86.161.53.126 user Tiss_Flower.
message 42857 - 08/29/16
From: JG, subject: Re: AR’s Achievement
I've always admired how AR teaches us things through the mouths of his child characters: Nancy enthusing about the hound trails to the Swallows, Jackie teaching trout-tickling to the Ds, John reminding himself of his father's sailing tips. And yes, I learnt to sail from S&A! When I did actually get onto a dinghy, I immediately knew what to do.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42856 - 08/28/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Re: AR’s Achievement
I'm reading Lone Pine London right now and enjoying it very much, but MS does more telling us whereas AR shows us. I don't think he tells us anything, even when we learn things like trout tickling or, indeed, sailing. Unfortunately, I'm not a sailor but I have always thought the sailing S&As could teach me the basics - if that's what I wanted from them. In not patronizing his child readers, AR naturally encourages their interest, a difficult trick to master for anyone, let alone a "children's" author.
posted via 86.161.53.126 user Tiss_Flower.
message 42855 - 08/28/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: AR’s Achievement
My view as well Tiss, though I would make a case for Malcolm Saville. Of childhood reads he came closest to how I felt about AR.
posted via 95.145.229.171 user MTD.
message 42854 - 08/28/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: AR’s Achievement
I agree, and David's response shows that it happens. I think it has become fashionable in certain quarters to dismiss him and his adult readers, this review of the new film

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/film/swallows-and-amazons-review-oh-golly-gosh-we-re-in-the-wrong-century-1.2760398

from the Irish Times is a perfect example.
posted via 95.145.229.171 user MTD.


message 42853 - 08/27/16
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: AR’s Achievement
Hello Mike; I kept reading references about 'Swallows and Amazons', 'Secret Water' and 'Arthur Ransome' in 'Yachting Monthly' when I was just 40, which is a bit late. I tracked them down in my local Public Library, and devoured them. Much later on Mike Field introduced me to TARS, whose membership I have enjoyed since then. Thanks, Mike !
posted via 121.214.158.161 user David.
message 42852 - 08/27/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: AR’s Achievement
In this context it would be interesting to hear from or of AR admirers who first came across the SA books as adults, having missed them in their childhood.
posted via 88.110.76.82 user Mike_Jones.
message 42851 - 08/27/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Re: AR’s Achievement
Hi Mike. I must say I don't think of AR as a children's author. I don't think he wrote FOR children. He wrote for and about the child in himself. I think he used his childhood memories and others to create a childhood he wished he'd had and, in so doing, created a childhood I wish I'd had - and still wish for 40 years on.
I've reread other favourite books from my childhood, Malcolm Saville and Enid Blyton, and these do read like children's books. The genius of AR is that his don't. They are great stories that happen to have believable children as the main characters. If we could ask him how he did it, he probably wouldn't know.
posted via 86.161.53.126 user Tiss_Flower.
message 42850 - 08/27/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: AR’s Achievement
For me, AR as a children’s author, (and it is a pity we have to pigeon-hole him with this phrase, a great writer is a great writer), stands head and shoulders above any others because he doesn’t encourage or try to force his readers to do anything away from the books.

He may have inspired some to follow certain paths but that is just coincidental. One aspect of his work that he excels at is explaining to the reader how to do things – all I know about boats, sailing and numerous other subjects comes from reading AR. Fifty or so years on from my first reading his books I still draw upon that knowledge, even if only to enable me to understand references to those things in other books etc.

Reading his canon in my later adulthood has shown me another side to his work that is often underrated. He had a great understanding of the psychology of children, and how they interact with the world of adults. I always take great comfort from whenever in his plots the children show they have a much better understanding of things than the adults around them.

posted via 95.145.229.171 user MTD.


message 42849 - 08/26/16
From: Jon, subject: Re: THAT illustration in Winter Holiday now smoking
Capt. Flint (and Cdr. Walker) smoked "Navy Cut"; see Winter Holiday.
posted via 71.90.224.197 user Jon.
message 42848 - 08/26/16
From: CS, subject: Re: drag on a fag (was THAT illustration in Winter Holiday
And the spies smoking Bogatirii?
posted via 24.156.62.154 user dthewlis.
message 42847 - 08/26/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Russians....
JG - Advice from an old TarBoarder: on Tarboard if you ask for discussion on a topic you will get complete silence. The thing to do is to request people NOT to talk on that topic and then the postings will arrive in shoals . . .
posted via 86.182.41.19 user Peter_H.
message 42846 - 08/26/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: THAT illustration in Winter Holiday now smoking
I don't see Mrs Walker smoking those pastel-coloured 'Passing Clouds' - too poncey for a sailor's wife. I think 'Churchman's No. 1' would have suited her (made in Ipswich).
posted via 86.182.41.19 user Peter_H.
message 42845 - 08/26/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: THAT illustration in Winter Holiday
Can you see what she is smoking? Authentic Craven A perhaps?

Sounds about right. My mum smoked those during the war.

Amazing campaign success; Craven 'A' were said to be "kind to your throat" My mum believed it- or at least, she said so.

Truth in advertising clearly has a long, rocky history.
posted via 81.62.110.19 user PeterC.


message 42844 - 08/25/16
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Re: THAT illustration in Winter Holiday now smoking
Possibly Mary Walker, being the wife of an RN officer, would have smoked Senior Service or Capstan Navy Cut. Both were popular 1930's non filter cigarettes of good quality.
Going upmarket, she may have smoked 'Passing Clouds' which came in a pink packet with a framed picture of a cavalier on the front.
Alternatively there was a brand called 'Three Castles' which came in a green pack with a picture of a three masted merchantman at the dockside with three barrels of rum or brandy on the quay.
Both A & CF smoked pipes. Not having seen the new film I do not know if Rafe Spall smokes a pipe. If he did, then one of Samuel Gawith's range of pipe tobaccos, manufactured in Kendal since 1792, would be a suitable tobacco to smoke. Out of a range of 50 tobaccos, names such as 'Bothy Flake', 'Firedance Flake' and 'Kendal Plug' stand out.
posted via 80.189.42.102 user OwenRoberts.
message 42843 - 08/25/16
From: SB, subject: Re: drag on a fag (was THAT illustration in Winter Holiday
Perhaps, bearing in mind what they have done with the S&A story, Mrs Walker ought to have been filmed smoking Black Russians - a nice little plot complication.

Only trying to help,
SB
posted via 86.182.41.19 user Peter_H.


message 42842 - 08/25/16
From: JG, subject: Russians....
Right (and this means you, Shackle), let's talk about the Russians in the film.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42841 - 08/25/16
From: George Owdon, subject: Re: THAT illustration in Winter Holiday
Yes, this teenage squabbling must stop, or it will be shackles at dawn for the lot of you.
But what has been overlooked in all this talk of the film is that at last it gives proper recognition to my Uncle Vladimir's part in the story. That was omitted from the book, probably by the intervention of the capitalist lackey Jonathan Cape. Justice at last!
posted via 141.0.14.75 user awhakim.
message 42840 - 08/25/16
From: JG, subject: Re: THAT illustration in Winter Holiday
Oy - Coot and Strakey - go and start your own thread. Blimin' vandals.... Get Swill.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42839 - 08/25/16
From: CS, subject: Re: THAT illustration in Winter Holiday
Probably not Gauloises and certainly not Egyptian Deities. Sorry, couldn't resist.
posted via 24.156.62.154 user dthewlis.
message 42838 - 08/24/16
From: SB, subject: Re: THAT illustration in Winter Holiday
Kelly Macdonald mentioned the smoking in a recent interview. While we can't really say it was her idea, she certainly approved of it in the role, saying: "she [Mrs W] is just a bit more real and vital and feisty than mother figures usually are".

Can you see what she is smoking? Authentic Craven A perhaps?

I'm afraid this is on the wrong thread - my idea, moderately inconvenient I suppose. Get Swill.
posted via 86.182.41.19 user Peter_H.


message 42837 - 08/24/16
From: JG, subject: Re: 2016 film, now that we've all seen it...
Hello, Tiss. Yes, certainly, you shouldn't see the new film - don't worry - it's permitted not to! I agree 100% about what the genius of AR is, and you'll see my extremely similar thoughts (which I do believe that you'll like) about this on http://www.allthingsransome.net/literary/beckfoot.htm. So some people might say, given my credentials just above, 'Well, why is she enthusing about the film, then?' as in major ways it diverges from what I mark as special and brilliant about AR's books. I think I've answered this in other posts about the aim of TARS and about children nearly 100 years on, so I won't expand on it again here. It fulfils a role, and I believe a useful one, for the next-but-one generation, within the limited budget that was inevitably available and with attention inevitably to getting young audiences in. We continue of course to hope earnestly for a benevolent TARS millionaire one day to leave his fortune to the creation of a beautiful representation of our beloved books on-screen, including WH which always hovers near the top of my favourite-AR list. What a gift that would be.....
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42836 - 08/24/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Re: 2016 film, now that we've all seen it...
Hi everyone, I'm new to this so bear with me. I don't want to see the new film either, not after hearing that spies have been brought in. For what? The genius of AR is that his children's adventures are believable because they come mainly from their imagination. Take WH: they go on an expedition to THEIR North Pole. Can you imagine a film version? It would probably send them to the real one. AR adapters should trust his story-telling ability and stick to HIS stories.
posted via 86.161.53.126 user Tiss_Flower.
message 42835 - 08/24/16
From: JG, subject: Re: THAT illustration in Winter Holiday
The seaplane is ready....
D'you notice that Mrs Walker smokes? A suspect....
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42834 - 08/24/16
From: SB, subject: Re: THAT illustration in Winter Holiday
. . . but behind it, as usual. A peace offering of 5 Woodbines may not be enough . . .
SB
Get Barton.
posted via 86.182.41.19 user Peter_H.
message 42833 - 08/24/16
From: JG, subject: Re: 2016 Film
Yes, I agree (especially as it got rid of the lifejackets - I still loathe wearing one, having been brought up not to be a duffer). I noticed the tarpaulins, particularly in the Amazon; but John is clearly helming and tacking in some shots - well done him. Incidentally, re Roger, Philippa L told us that he's actually a very experienced swimmer!
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42832 - 08/23/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: New Film Opening Week End
In a previous thread Geraint Lewis pointed out that the amount of money the new film takes over its opening week end will improve the chances of more being made.

Swallows and Amazons took £676,000 make it No. 8 in the top ten, top was Find Dory taking £2.86m.

posted via 95.150.14.171 user MTD.
message 42831 - 08/23/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: 2016 Film
Thanks for that Peter, it makes much more sense. Reasonable safety measures are understandable.
posted via 95.150.14.171 user MTD.
message 42830 - 08/23/16
From: Peter Willis, subject: Re: 2016 Film
Health n Safety required there to be a diver in each boat, ready to leap into action in the event of a capsize, as an alternative to the lack of lifejackets. They lay in the bottom boards and it's quite easy to spot suspicious lumps concealed by tarpaulins in some shots.Nick Barton told me. He wasn't keen on it being broadcast and I omitted it from my Classic Sailor article - but it has been mentioned elsewhere
posted via 95.147.119.169 user PeterWillis.
message 42829 - 08/23/16
From: JG, subject: Re: THAT illustration in Winter Holiday
A rich field for G**, certainly; I am armed and ready - you won't find me in the boathouse.....
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42828 - 08/23/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: THAT illustration in Winter Holiday
JG - 'All the best' won't save you - you have been rumbled. Expect repercussions.
SB

posted via 86.182.41.19 user Peter_H.
message 42827 - 08/23/16
From: JG, subject: Re: 2016 film, now that we've all seen it...
Hello, Mike Dennis - I'm quite sure that you don't really think that I believe that TARS are not AR enthusiasts. Some AR enthusiasts prefer, quite legitimately, not to take a active interest in the second part of TARS' twin aims (from the website home page) 'to celebrate his life and to promote his interests in exploring, camping, sailing, navigation, leadership, literature and much more.'
Apology accepted re the film review!
All the best
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42826 - 08/22/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: 2016 film, now that we've all seen it...
JG - Do you mean that members of TARS are not AR enthusiasts? I suspect you don't, but why make the distinction?

I'm certainly an AR enthusiast but not a member of TARS (never been the 'joining' type!) and apologies that this is not a film review, I'll provide one when I've seen it on DVD.
posted via 95.150.76.112 user MTD.


message 42825 - 08/22/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: 2016 film, now that we've all seen it...
Well, now that a few have seen it! But it would be interesting to hear what they thought.
posted via 95.150.76.112 user MTD.
message 42824 - 08/22/16
From: JG, subject: Re: 2016 film, now that we've all seen it...
Hello, Mike Field - we haven't met, so of course I can't comment with personal knowledge, but I do certainly agree that you should never see the film.
For TARS - as separate from AR enthusiasts - I hope that you'll all ensure that any young children who you know or even faintly know of get to see this film, which - nearly 100 years on from AR's magnificent achievement in encouraging children out into the world of open air and adventure - is doing the same again, absolutely within the ethos and reason-for-existence of TARS.
My feeling is - and of course I could be entirely wrong - is that Brigit would have been jumping up and down with hilarious glee at this new initiative in pulling children away from their screens and bringing back the magic of outdoors to them. There's a long scene in the film where Mrs Walker and Mrs Jackson talk about getting children out into the natural world. These days it takes different plot devices to do that; I would love it if a ten-year-old would come onto this discussion board to say how they feel about it, but I fear that they won't...
I do hope that we can keep this particular thread as a review of the film, with other discussion held in separate threads. We are a good-quality forum!
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42823 - 08/22/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: 2016 film, now that we've all seen it...
For those of us based in North America, we haven't seen it and there is no indication if or when we shall. IMdb says that it will have a 2016 release, but it may not be very extensive and if doesn't do well in the UK may never be released in cinemas here.

But by all means discuss the film as I doubt that there will be very many plot spoilers for this audience even with the Enid Blyton additions.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 42822 - 08/22/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: 2016 film, now that we've all seen it...
I haven't seen it at all. And as I said quite some time ago -- after reading how the story, the characters, and even the boat had been so badly mangled -- I have no intention of ever seeing it....
posted via 124.171.132.3 user mikefield.
message 42821 - 08/22/16
From: Duncan, subject: Re: 2016 film, now that we've all seen it...
I HAVEN'T seen it yet and I'm still not sure I want to...

But I probably always preferred the Amazons, a bit.
posted via 86.148.184.121 user Duncan.


message 42820 - 08/22/16
From: JG, subject: 2016 film, now that we've all seen it...
Thought I'd start a fresh thread. Saw it (for the second time) today - only a handful of people but it was 11 o'clock on a Monday morning. As we went out, I could hear several children (girls especially) saying that the Swallows were boring but the Amazons were 'really cool'. I realise what clever casting it was - the Swallows to appeal to us oldies and AR fans, the Amazons to appeal to young girls as their wannabee dream.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42819 - 08/21/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: 2016 Film - Another Review
There is a review today in The Sunday Times (London) by Camilla Long, which if you are used to her humour is quite positive.

The she admits to having been a 'Blyton child' rather than a 'Ransome child' herself and makes much of the silliness of the Titty name change.

She argues that Blyton deliberately used children's names that were double entendres whereas Ransome

"...presumably went to his grave not knowing why having both a Roger and a Titty in his Swallows and Amazons books was so funny. All gone now ... Titty has been exterminated by a faceless committee that is frightened children might be tempted to laugh."

Long goes on to comment on the addition of 39 Steps type action as

"... a blustering, preposterous addition that feels weird, but largely works."

She joins a number of reviewers who claim to know nothing of the books but makes a couple of points which show she does (or perhaps has just read the PR material she received!)

Unfortunately, to read more you need to buy the paper or get through a paywall!
posted via 2.28.84.30 user MTD.


message 42818 - 08/19/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: 2016 Film - More Odd Reports
Thanks for that Geraint, very useful!
posted via 95.145.229.191 user MTD.
message 42817 - 08/19/16
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: 2016 Film - More Odd Reports
Apologies if this has been posted already - I haven't read all of the posts about reviews of the film.

There's a review by Peter Bradshaw in the Guardian. The printed version is in Friday's weekly "Film & Music" section and is much shorter than the online version linked below. The printed version comprises just the first two paragraphs of the text of the online version (with slightly changed wording) plus the one-sentence final paragraph.

posted via 2.28.193.31 user eclrh.
message 42816 - 08/19/16
From: Geraint Lewis, subject: Re: 2016 Film - More Odd Reports
Thanks, Mike. You're quite right that the DM article says "Arthur Ransome Trust". So does the Times one it was taken from, and so does Andrea's original article. My point is that they're factually incorrect. The consultations over Titty's name change certainly took place as described. But for the record they were with AR's Literary Executors, NOT with the Arthur Ransome Trust.

Incidentally, Andrea has published the article she wrote online (link below), so you can read it directly, without the various papers' edits (which are quite significant in places), and without need to climb the Times paywall.

posted via 86.180.255.89 user Geraint_Lewis.
message 42815 - 08/19/16
From: Geraint Lewis, subject: Re: 2016 Film - More Odd Reports
Thanks, Mike. You're quite right that the DM article says "Arthur Ransome Trust". So does the Times one it was taken from, and so does Andrea's original article. My point is that they're factually incorrect. The consultations over Titty's name change certainly took place place as described. But they were with AR's Literary Executors, not with the Arthur Ransome Trust.

Andrea has published the article she wrote online (link below), so you can read it directly, without the various papers' edits, and without need to climb the Times paywall.

posted via 86.180.255.89 user Geraint_Lewis.
message 42814 - 08/19/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: 2016 Film - More Odd Reports
Thanks Geraint, the first of course should be 'not', a mistake on my part.

The other quote is a direct copy and paste from the Daily Mail Website.
posted via 95.145.229.191 user MTD.


message 42813 - 08/19/16
From: JG, subject: Re: 2016 Film
At the BFI showing, the director spoke clearly about them being taught to sail, and I don't believe she was lying; but the children might quite rightly feel that they weren't then fully-fledged 'able to sail'. She did also say that they sailed alone - she didn't confirm whether sometimes or always, so it could certainly be that there was sometimes someone else in the boat.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42812 - 08/19/16
From: Geraint Lewis, subject: Re: 2016 Film - More Odd Reports
I suspect that is meant to read "...decision not taken lightly..." as that would be in line with the various players' other comments on this subject (and the history thereof, so far as I know it).

The second quote is a typo/error - it should read "Arthur Ransome Literary Estate", not "Arthur Ransome Trust".
posted via 86.180.255.89 user Geraint_Lewis.


message 42811 - 08/19/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: 2016 Film - More Odd Reports
In The Daily Mail yesterday (18th) they had an interview with the writer of the screenplay, Andrea Gibb, who says the name change for Titty was a decision taken lightly and was to avoid associations with Online pornography. She also says they had had long

"... careful discussions, in consultation with the Arthur Ransome Trust," about it.

(its available Online without a paywall)
posted via 95.145.229.191 user MTD.


message 42810 - 08/19/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: 2016 Film
The Blue Peter piece was rather short and sparse, though was filmed on 'Wild Cat' Island. One interesting thing emerged, in all the location reports the director etc have said the children were taught to sail, on Blue Peter they all claimed they couldn't and there was someone on the boat with them (and some clever camera angles), unless... they were being ironic or whatever.

posted via 95.145.229.191 user MTD.
message 42809 - 08/19/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Film review in The Times - and further
Cath Kidston is a very trendy designer beloved of middle-class mothers who want their homes to look like stylised country houses - I don't agree with Spicer's comments but she's probably right on that one!
posted via 95.145.229.191 user MTD.
message 42808 - 08/19/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Film review in The Times - and further
Kate Muir has had another go at the new S&A film in The Times today. Sensitive AR fans should not read any further. Among her comments:

"The adaptation . . .is an Enid Blyton-style lashings-of-ginger-beer adventure, with trains, planes and spies all thrown in. Ransome purists may be disappointed, but the original story is just too whimsical and tame for children today"

Ouch!

Other comments: "The film is bizarrely enjoyable" (well, thanks). "Jolly japes are had battling over territory" "Ransome experts will probably choke on their Pemmican Spam . ." (Oh very witty!) "but the addition of some peril gives the film a spiffing bit of oomph outdoors, which balances the nostalgic Cath Kidston retro look of many of the interior scenes"

Who is Cath Kidston for heaven's sake ??

This sneering Metropolitan-minded review is a disgrace.
posted via 86.182.41.19 user Peter_H.


message 42807 - 08/18/16
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: Film review in The Times - and further
For those who can listen to BBC Radio 4 on I-Player, The Film Programme at 4 o'clock this afternoon had an interview with Andrea Gibbs, the film's script writer. It isn't the whole programme, but lasted long enough for me to Rattletrap from one meeting to the next!
posted via 86.152.212.132 user Paul_Crisp.
message 42806 - 08/18/16
From: JG, subject: Re: THAT illustration in Winter Holiday
Perhaps it is a case for Inspector Moss, after all: we could write a short piece about the mysterious inversion in January 1943, including a copy of Alan's 9th edition and my 11th edition illustrations (they have the caption at the bottom, so even Moss shouldn't struggle with printing them as sent), and asking whether anyone has the 10th or 12th edition and if so, which way up the illustration is?
BTW, I don't seem to have received the 2015 issue of Mixed Moss (was there one? Could I borrow someone else's?).
posted via 81.159.82.27 user JG.
message 42805 - 08/18/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: THAT illustration in Winter Holiday
Since my last post I remembered I have a 1936 Cape edition, checked and Dick's legs are pointing up! So perhaps the wartime edition theory is the answer.
posted via 2.29.89.39 user MTD.
message 42804 - 08/18/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Film and the Aleppo connection
And it's on the BBC news website today - a longish piece on the Aleppo connection, with some lovely photos of the family: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-37049314.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42803 - 08/18/16
From: JG, subject: Re: THAT illustration in Winter Holiday
There is a 10th impression in September 1942, then mine (11th) in January 1943. So - can we find the 10th and 12th editions??
I'd always wondered about it (I bought it second-hand), and in 1996 I sent a query about it to Moss, though I don't recall that it was printed.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42802 - 08/17/16
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: THAT illustration in Winter Holiday
This is very odd. My copy (9th impression May 1942) has the picture the right way up, i.e. Dick's legs pointing up, and the mast below the sledge. With all the difficulties of printing during the war, I would have thought they just kept all the type locked up ready for the next reprint.
Perhaps some officious person had the block reversed after my reprint, and was duly reprimanded after JG's 1943 one had attracted comment.
BTW, the letter quoted by Magnus is also reprinted in Roger Wardale's AR: Master Storyteller (p.80) which is available to the general public.
posted via 141.0.14.147 user awhakim.
message 42801 - 08/17/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: THAT illustration in Winter Holiday
Checking my various editions, the Cape hardback from 1960s up to the Vintage Christmas themed edition from last year all have the version with Dick's legs upwards. When was the change made?
posted via 2.29.89.39 user MTD.
message 42800 - 08/17/16
From: JG, subject: Re: THAT illustration in Winter Holiday
Aha - I've always wondered whether the 1943 edition, with the inverted illustration, was a one-off (cue the carpeting of a wartime employee..... 'Well, sir, it really wasn't obvious at all'); we'd need a way of checking that page in WH editions throughout the 1940s. Hmmmm.

posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42799 - 08/17/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: THAT illustration in Winter Holiday
My Cape seventeenth impression of 1948 has the legs pointing up.q
posted via 92.25.152.116 user Mike_Jones.
message 42798 - 08/17/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Film review in The Times - and further
Today's Times articles are behind the usual paywall. However, very briefly: the first article is by Andrea Gibb, the film scriptwriter, and explains why the Russian spy plot was included, and why Titty's name was changed. She writes:

"Since this was a cinematic story, we felt more peril was needed to sustain it. This had to be realistic . . . That's when Ransome presented us with another gift: his secret past."

Marks to Andrea Gibb for breaking cover on this, but I'm afraid I can't agree with her. My view is that, far from "presenting" it, AR would have been horrified at anything from his real past in Russia being imported into his S&A adventure stories.

As to Titty/Tatty, Andrea Gibb is on slightly better ground:

"There was no edict, no politically correct diktat from on high. We, the film makers, had long and careful discussions, in consultation with the Arthur Ransome Trust, and came to a consensus to change it."

The other article is about the Altounyan connection with AR and also, sadly, about Aleppo, much of which is now in ruins. The connection has a tragic topicality. Both these Times articles are well-written, a welcome change to some of the stuff seen lately.

posted via 86.182.41.19 user Peter_H.


message 42797 - 08/17/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: THAT illustration in Winter Holiday
when I look at the other-way-up illustration in my 1968 paperback, with Dick's legs pointing up, I've always felt that the latter is correct

Looking at it on my Kindle edition, it does look very ambiguous. My hard cover 1948 Cape greenbacks are out of reach, but I'm sure that you're right. After all, doesn't AR in the letter mention Dick going "head first" into the snow?
But I agree that the Cape paginator (is that what they called the layout chaps) might very excusably been more than puzzled.
posted via 81.62.60.241 user PeterC.


message 42796 - 08/17/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Film this weekend
I'm off to see it again on Monday in Brighton - there was so much to take in that I want another go at it. The official purists on the various film threads will be looking for anachronisms/ centreboard-cases etc: we should be cheering this film as it was done on a small budget, by a British team who care about encouraging Ransomeian values in children (which is what TARS is all about). It's quite true that the added plot elements are a bit Enid Blyton; but the children at the BFI showing absolutely adored them, and this helps to introduce a whole new generation of children to Ransome and to enthuse them about the ‘camping and fresh air’ parallel theme of the film. The writer has done a clever job of condensing the plot elements, seamlessly removing Cormorant Island for example. And it’s a lovely old-fashioned film style, with long tracking shots rather than quick-cut flashes for young people with short attention spans. I was glad to see no life-jackets! and interested to hear that unlike the Whatham film with the dinghies often tethered to the camera-raft, the children really were sailing all the time.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 42795 - 08/17/16
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: Film review in The Times - and further
Yet more in today's Times - a double page spread in the Times 2 section. Part of it looks at the Syria - Aleppo connection. Our main problem is finding a local cinema showing the film! Mostly, they give new listings on Thursday, so we wait until tomorrow.

posted via 86.152.212.132 user Paul_Crisp.
message 42794 - 08/15/16
From: Geraint Lewis, subject: Re: A better idea for a film...
Let's hope so. But any sequel will face numerous significant hurdles, any one of which could easily derail its development. At the moment most are too far off to worry about. But there is one immediate and unavoidable one: even cracking the door open for a sequel depends on this S&A being a (substantial) commercial success. No movie gets made without finance, and nobody is going to finance a sequel to a failure.

Box office success is very dependent on the opening weekend return. If a movie does well at the start, then the cinemas will keep it on more screens and there's time for word of mouth to build an audience. If it performs poorly, then they'll pull it in favour of something else. So, if you want to see a movie of one of the other AR books - or even keep alive the chance of one - it makes sense to go to see it during the opening weekend, and encourage as many other people as possible to do likewise.
posted via 86.180.255.89 user Geraint_Lewis.


message 42793 - 08/15/16
From: JG, subject: Re: A better idea for a film...
The director and script-writer, in the post-film discussion at the BFI yesterday, were coy but encouraging about a question from a child about a sequel. Pigeon Post, Picts and Martyrs and Winter Holiday are all wonderful candidates. Meanwhile, I love the suggestion of re-looking at the adventures from an Amazon point of view, though that's probably one for an article rather than a film. When I played Mrs Blackett in a sketch at an AGM gathering some years ago I tried to enlarge on what it was like at the Blackett end. Rich material for speculation and envisaging......
posted via 31.52.8.45 user JG.
message 42792 - 08/15/16
From: JG, subject: Re: 2016 Film
Saw it yesterday at the British Film Institute! The cinema was full of children; the director and script-writer were there for questions afterwards, and there was a forest of hands as small children queued up to ask about how the film was made etc. Purists will hate it, as it's only vaguely related to the Swallows & Amazons story; but the director and script-writer underlined repeatedly how hard they'd worked to keep the essence and spirit of the original story, and I think they've succeeded. (This is almost the '13th book'). They also assured us that there was no CGI or 'green screen' - the young actors really did do everything, including Roger falling overboard in a real lake and being rescued (though there was a diver underwater - coincidentally, Virginia McKenna's son - ready to support Roger if needed). While the boats were not actually [spoiler alert] being dragged along by a seaplane at the end, the children really were in the boats being dragged hair-raisingly along (by a speedboat, on a Scottish loch). The rain on the camp was real, and the children were ad-libbing in that scene. Lovely scenes of incompetently frying fish etc. And 'Tatty' is a triumph (and NB John at one stage calls her 'Tattymouse') - clearly differentiated from our own Sophie, but Tittyish in a different way. Who knows what everyone will make of the Blacketts (Cumberland accents, apparently living in a rather basic way in a formerly nice house), but I warmed to them.
Re Martin H's post about the children not being sailors, we heard from the director that they were all tested as being comfortable on water, and John and Susan were given several weeks of sailing lessons (John in particular taking to it as a natural), which I'd say is enough for a film. As someone who's done a bit of acting, I can't buy 'most youngsters can perform a role when required' - not roles like these.
posted via 31.52.8.45 user JG.
message 42791 - 08/15/16
From: JG, subject: Re: THAT illustration in Winter Holiday
My 1943 hardback has the illustration with Dick's legs pointing down; when I look at the other-way-up illustration in my 1968 paperback, with Dick's legs pointing up, I've always felt that the latter is correct and that in 1943 it was misprinted (not a hard error to make!). Sounds as if my feeling was right.
posted via 31.52.8.45 user JG.
message 42790 - 08/14/16
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: 2016 Film
But at least the makers seem to acknowledge the Australian origin in the book, for in the music you here phrases from the shanty 'We're bound for South Australia'.

Once I can find a local cinema showing it next weekend, we'll go and see it for the second time. All the listings seem to go up to this Thgursday and no further!

posted via 86.152.212.132 user Paul_Crisp.


message 42789 - 08/14/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: THAT illustration in Winter Holiday
You know the one where D&D's sledge capsizes when nearly at the Pole? The picture which some people say ought to be the other way up.
Well I've found a comment by AR about it, in a letter, and I don't think it has been dissected on Tarboard yet.

To G Wren Howard, Sep 12, 1933

Hi! I counted on you to hurl forth the worst of those pictures. ... What about that niggly one of them being capsized in the snowstorm, with Dick's legs sticking up as he goes head first into the snow. My wife says that picture is a disgrace, and that I ought not even to have let you see it. I only let it go because I had nowt better, and because a small girl liked it.

(This letter was published in The Best Of Childhood, Amazon Publications)
posted via 81.129.151.56 user Magnus.


message 42788 - 08/14/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: 2016 Film
And the Daily Telegraph Review section yesterday had an interview with Kelly Macdonald, who plays Mrs Walker. It explains why she used a Scottish accent - it is her own. She was brought up in Glasgow. When she auditioned for the part she used 'period drama RP' but she was told to use her own accent, as Philippa Lowthorpe, the director, "had this notion to make the mother Scottish because they thought she could have some fun with that". Hmmm. We can all judge soon, as the film goes on general release on the 19th. (If you watch the cricket Test Match highlights each evening, you will have seen the film advertised during one of the breaks.)
posted via 86.182.41.186 user Peter_H.
message 42787 - 08/14/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: 2016 Film
Well, whatever some of us may think of the new film the BBC and their collaborating production companis are certainly not skimping on publicity here in the UK.

Saturday 13th the Daily Mail Weekend magazine included a double page spread written by Barbara Altounyan (there is an online version but you have to sign up for a 7 day trial then it is £1 for one issue.)

Next Thursday's Blue Peter on the CBBC TV channel at 5.00pm will include interviews with the child actors.
posted via 2.29.97.227 user MTD.


message 42786 - 08/10/16
From: Martin Honor, subject: Film Review in RYA Magazine
When my autumn copy of the RYA members’ magazine arrived this morning I was interested to see it contains a three page article about the new S&A film, including excerpts from an interview with Nick Barton. A couple of points in particular attracted my notice;
a) No children who could already sail were considered suitable as actors,
b) Old RNSA (Royal Navy Sailing Association) dinghies were used as Swallow and Amazon.

For the former in my experience most youngsters can perform a role when required. It just requires a little patience to instruct them, just like teaching them to sail. I am sure that a few weekends spent at sailing clubs with strong cadet memberships would have revealed a host of potential Johns and Nancys.

Re-rigged from gunter to lug sailed the RNSAs look near perfect for the roles. However, and this is nit-picking, in Swallow the centreboard case can be seen. I just once sailed one of these back in the 1970s and they seemed very slow and old-fashioned even when compared to the RN’s Bosun class of dinghies. But a general purpose boat designed in the 1940s for instructing sailors to sail has to be robust!

The author (the piece is un-credited) is upbeat about the film and hopes it will inspire a new generation to take to the water.

posted via 86.145.168.37 user MartinH.


message 42785 - 08/09/16
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Film review in The Times
The same thing has been going on with the yearly release of new models of automobiles since the 1950s, at least in the U.S. I think they are about a year early now.
posted via 24.156.62.154 user dthewlis.
message 42784 - 08/08/16
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Film review in The Times
Reviews and ads seem to be everywhere this weekend - in the Telegraph Magazine, ans on the back of the Times Saturday Review.

An ad (doubtless the same one) was also on the back of the Guardian's weekend magazine. If I'd based a view on the picture and not on what I've read here, I'd have guessed that the film was faithful to the book.

By the way, can anyone tell me why magazines are published over a month in advance?

I think it's basically an arms race. Where several magazines compete for a particular market, the publishers tend to believe (presumably on the basis of experience) that the one which first gets out its issue titled October (or any other month) will have an advantage. So over the years the publication dates drift earlier and earlier.
posted via 2.31.118.69 user eclrh.


message 42783 - 08/08/16
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: Film review in The Times
Reviews and ads seem to be everywhere this weekend - in the Telegraph Magazine, ans on the back of the Times Saturday Review. One that might have been missed is in the September edition of Classic Boat, together with an interview with Nick Barton, the film's producer. Both are worth reading.

By the way, can anyone tell me why magazines are published over a month in advance? I bought CB on the 4th August. There used to be a classic car journal that published two months ahead, so one would now be looking at the October edition! Is this to make them have a longer coffee-table life?
posted via 86.160.204.246 user Paul_Crisp.


message 42782 - 08/07/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Film review in Daily Telegraph (was: Westmorland Gazette)
I agree Mike (though the Telegraph doesn't use a paywall yet, so you should be able to get the main article.)

Once again Nick Barton seems to be 'talking up' his own production despite claims of being an S&A fan -

‘In the 1970s movie it’s a bit more buffoonery. It’s also quite small in scale; today it would seem like a TV film. We needed to make it more adventurous.’

Reading this gives the impression he's never seen the 1974 film!
posted via 2.29.97.213 user MTD.


message 42781 - 08/07/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Film review in Daily Telegraph (was: Westmorland Gazette)
Nothing in that review has led me to change my opinion that this version is a travesty of the original. :(

I can't get access to the links because they're behind a paywall. Maybe I'm getting to be an old dogmudgeon, but I don't like being held to ransom over Ransome....
posted via 124.171.131.255 user mikefield.


message 42780 - 08/07/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Film review in Daily Telegraph (was: Westmorland Gazette)
In yesterday's (6 Aug) Daily Telegraph there were two more articles on AR and the new film. In the Review section there was a piece on AR and his life - usual stuff, but in the colour magazine there was an article on the making of the new film:-

'All aboard'

I note that Dane Hughes, who plays John, has only read 2 pages of S&A.


posted via 86.182.41.186 user Peter_H.


message 42779 - 08/06/16
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Folding Dinghy
That's pretty cool. Do you think that was a double-bladed (kayak) paddle? I hadn't considered one for my folder, but I may need to now.

Alex
posted via 204.194.168.209 user Pitsligo.


message 42778 - 08/06/16
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Folding Dinghy
All of that makes sense, and AR's assessment of Mac's dinghy says as much, that it was Mac's (inexpert) design and construction. I've still always thought well of Mac for giving it a shot.

Mostly, though, I was wondering if anyone knew of a specific experience AR himself had with folders, that he might have mentioned in his nonfiction, and that then found its way into GN?. My (perhaps overactive) imagination can construct an experience for AR where he had a too-exciting time trying to land a salmon from a friend's home-made folding dinghy. The impression stuck, and evolved into Jemmerling's misadventure.

Alex
posted via 204.194.168.209 user Pitsligo.


message 42777 - 08/05/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Folding Dinghy
Folding boats that I've read about had canvas bottoms and endposts, wooden sides, and wooden burden boards and thwarts that kept the boat's shape when inserted. More modern versions were designed, using hypalon instead of canvas. Your Fliptail looks like a nice extension of the design.

Wiki has an article on folding dinghies, which includes (very large) photos of the two types.

And then of course there were the folding kayaks ('folbots') used by commandos in WWII, but that's another topic.

I've always thought that Mac's folding dinghy must have been home-designed as well as home-made, finishing up a bit like a coracle -- which were shaped like saucers and always notoriously hard to move in a straight line.

posted via 124.171.131.255 user mikefield.
message 42776 - 08/05/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Folding Dinghy
Here is the Harrods model from their 1929 catalogue. No other details are given, other than the heading "Enjoy the Delights of the River Economically".


posted via 86.182.41.186 user Peter_H.


message 42775 - 08/04/16
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Folding Dinghy
One of the things I liked best about GN? was the idea of a folding dinghy. After many years, I'm now building one of my own: I've started with the plans for the "Fliptail 7", from Wooden Widgets (it's easy to find on line, if you like), and have modified it as I've gone. However, with working on her, I got to wondering if anyone knows AR's history with folding dinghies, and whether the one in GN? had a real life equivalent. That element of the story has all of AR's attention to detail, but feels as though it may have been drawn from a specific boat or memory. Things like CF's line "I'd like to see him get hold of a salmon in her", make me wonder if the folder was a personal friend of AR's. Does anyone know anything about the folder?
posted via 204.194.168.209 user Pitsligo.
message 42774 - 08/02/16
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Film review in The Times - and further
And in the Telegraph today, Our Sophie has a whole page about what has happened to the children of the 1974 film
posted via 141.0.14.146 user awhakim.
message 42773 - 07/29/16
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Film review in The Times - and further
Passing through the London Underground yesterday, I was impressed by a large and striking poster for the film, "In cinemas August 19".
posted via 141.0.15.35 user awhakim.
message 42772 - 07/28/16
From: Peter Truelove, subject: Re: Film review in The Times
Having attended the preview viewing of the film a month ago and passing an opinion in Message 42729, I had the good fortune to attend the World Premiere in Keswick last weekend. The second viewing confirmed my original thoughts about what I had seen. The film is recognisable as the story we all know and love but not as we all know and love it. The link between this and the original written material is about as close as the one between Monty Python's 'Life of Brian' and The Gospels. It's certainly there but there is an awful lot of stuff added and an awful lot of stuff taken away. Good film though, my grandchildren will love it. Do not go if you are a purist.... 'cos you won't like it.
posted via 95.144.141.165 user jacpet.
message 42771 - 07/26/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Film review in The Times
The new S&A film is reviewed in today's Times. I am going to lift the Murdoch paywall slightly and quote from it - brief extracts only and for review and educational purposes, of course. The reviewer is Kate Muir, who takes a rather 'Metropolitan' view of the film (as most of the critics do):

“It’s a strange kettle of fish, this adaptation of Arthur Ransome’s beloved thirties children’s book, but enjoyable for its sense of freedom and derring-do. Tossing your 7-year old, with no lifejacket, into a boat with his siblings and losing contact for days seems unconscionable in this era of helicopter parenting. . . .
. . . The child acting, as ever, can be overcooked, although Roger takes to the Method like a duckling to water. This, however, is not going to make a modern movie, although they tried in 1974 . . .
. . . The director Philippa Lowthorpe has grafted on a Russian spy plot, which adds oomph outdoors, balancing the Cath Kidston look of the interiors.
. . . Probably the perfect audience is a grandparent and a young grandchild. That said, watching the red-sailed dinghy bob across the lake in a velvet green landscape has a calming effect that we all need.”



posted via 86.182.42.251 user Peter_H.


message 42770 - 07/25/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Film review in Daily Telegraph (was: Westmorland Gazette)
It does show it in a different light, but it still seems changes for changes sake. Those that some reviewers approve of AR himself moved towards in some of the other books.
posted via 95.146.63.83 user MTD.
message 42769 - 07/25/16
From: Ross, subject: Re: Film review in Daily Telegraph (was: Westmorland Gazette)
I remain excited by the fact that the story will be introduced to another generation.

When will it arrive in Canada?
posted via 184.151.61.213 user rlcossar.


message 42768 - 07/25/16
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Film review in Daily Telegraph (was: Westmorland Gazette)
A very positive review in today's Telegraph, giving the film 4 stars. This is the first review that has actually encouraged me to see the film. I think Robbie Collins may be a secret S&A enthusiast.
posted via 141.0.14.147 user awhakim.
message 42767 - 07/25/16
From: Woll, subject: Film review in Westmorland Gazette
A generally positive, but undetailed, review in the Westmorland Gazette.
posted via 183.76.57.171 user Woll.
message 42766 - 07/24/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Guardian Film review
I agree Mike, it does seem both reviews only confirm my worst fears!
posted via 95.146.63.83 user MTD.
message 42765 - 07/24/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: A review of the new film
Thanks for that Adam, an interesting review from an unusual source (for a new UK film that is!) On reading I wonder if the reviewer knew the books more than she was letting on, it seems from her Twitter feed she does.
posted via 95.146.63.83 user MTD.
message 42764 - 07/24/16
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Re: Guardian Film review
Not sure that I would be too concerned about the lack of a sculling notch.
The dinghy in which I attempted to learn to sail, in South West Ireland, had no notch. A rowlock was removed from the safety chain and transferred to a hole in the centre of the stern. My fisherman instructor said it was far more effective than a notch.

The film may be watchable as an adventure story in its own right; perhaps expecting it to be true to the book 87 years on it too much to expect. A good version was in the BBC series in black & white days.
posted via 80.189.42.102 user OwenRoberts.


message 42763 - 07/24/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Guardian Film review
Hh'mmm... I'm afraid that neither the Guardian's nor Variety's review inspires with me any desire to watch the film. Leaving aside all the additional plot events and twists that are not actually part of the story at all, blow me down, they couldn't even get Swallow herself right! Not only is she finished bright like Amazon, but they also gave her a forestay, shrouds, and a barn-door rudder for good measure. And no sculling notch -- which is a shocking lapse, given the importance that the ability to scull both dinghies has to the story.

If you're going to do something at all, why not do it properly? The Variety review talks about this film's Swallow's being a "clinker-built little boat clearly sourced with every care by production designer Suzie Davies." I'm afraid the fact is that Suzie plainly didn't use enough care. They could have built a perfect copy of Swallow for a few thousand quid -- a miniscule proportion of the overall cost of production. Or they could simply have hired the 1974 film version, which is much closer in design to the original and has been restored and is sailing, as we know.

The Guardian review calls the new film a "self-conscious period adaptation that grafts on a new grownup plotline of treachery and derring-do, probably closer to Enid Blyton’s Famous Five or John Buchan"; and it calls the story addition a "new and implausible line in melodrama", mentioning "a frankly bizarre and not entirely logical chase sequence aboard a train in which sinister trench-coated figures behave strangely". Variety's review mentions "a dramatic third-act convergence involving a sea-plane. It’s a stunt that feels more of a piece with Enid Blyton’s lusty disregard for plausibility".

While I'm somewhat of a fan of Enid Blyton, and a much greater one of John Buchan, in my view neither Blyton nor Buchan has any place in an Arthur Ransome story.

The Guardian's review ends by saying, "This Swallows and Amazons is decent enough: but probably best savoured on the small screen after tea on a rainy Sunday."

I'm afraid it's a film I myself have no intention of watching at all.
posted via 124.171.131.134 user mikefield.


message 42762 - 07/24/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Guardian Film review
Another review
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 42761 - 07/23/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: A review of the new film
On the whole, a very positive review.
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.
message 42760 - 07/23/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: A review of the new film
Variety's take on the new film includes an acknowledgment that it may enrage Ransome purists and that the ending "...feels more of a piece with Enid Blyton’s lusty disregard for plausibility than the studied logic of even Ransome’s most adventurous moments."
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 42759 - 07/21/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Two 'Swallow's this year!
Oh, we can get excited all right but unfortunately we cannot do very much about the excitement.

posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 42758 - 07/21/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Two 'Swallow's this year!
The Swallow from the 1974 film is staying in East Anglia this summer. If you want to get sailing on the Norfolk Broads, Suffolk rivers or even at 'Secret Water' then do get in touch.

A quick bit of blurb about our plans can be found at www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/190213/You-can-sail-Swallow-in-2016

On the same website (that's my my day job) you can see what is happening to the Swallow from the 2016 film; she'll be on display at the Isle of Wight during Cowes Week (a massive yacht racing event). More details at www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/190897/Swallows-and-Amazons-come-to-Cowes

My apologies to those outside the UK who cannot get excited about this news.
posted via 81.129.151.122 user Magnus.


message 42757 - 07/17/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Derwentwater regatta and film reviews
But the Special Agent was Dick Barton!

Dick/Nick. It's close enough for jazz.

Wonderful. Explains everything...

posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42756 - 07/16/16
From: a, subject: Re: Derwentwater regatta and film reviews
But the Special Agent was Dick Barton!
posted via 141.0.14.144 user awhakim.
message 42755 - 07/14/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Derwentwater regatta and film reviews
This quote from Nick Barton (producer)

That's really his name? I never realised.

Of course they have to have a chase on the roof of the train! It's fate!

AR, Special Agent!
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42754 - 07/12/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Derwentwater regatta and film reviews
Thanks Adam for posting that, very interesting.

This quote from Nick Barton (producer) gave me pause for thought

“One of the Arthur Ransome Society members said that the film told the story that he, Ransome, would have liked to have written. He didn’t, of course, write that story because he couldn’t.”

Another point, I assume a misprint - “We started filming properly in 2010 and then filmed last year in the Lake District,”

In 2010? I know this is the second attempt at the production, but I thought the first never got to the filming stage.
posted via 2.29.89.64 user MTD.


message 42753 - 07/12/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Derwentwater regatta and film reviews
The CofE must be worried by the firing of all those canons.

“We intended to make a film which was faithful to the book, but Arthur Ransome was a fully paid up spy for MI6 when he was working in Russia, but of course he couldn’t write about that."

posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 42752 - 07/12/16
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Ivor Cutler, was: TV alert - no idea if worthwhile
I saw him in a London theatre revue, probably about 1960, but don't remember who else was in it. He would appear periodically dressed menacingly in a slightly-too-small morning coat, and sing sardonic songs to the accompaniment of a portable harmonium.
The rest of the cast would flee the stage in terror at his approach.
posted via 78.33.14.82 user awhakim.
message 42751 - 07/08/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: 'Britain's Lost Waterlands - Escape to Swallows & Amazons Country'
Dylan Winters' 'Keep Turning Left'.

The main site is here, from where you can find indexes to dozens of his ten-minute sailing videos.

And on this page you'll find his clips of Secret Water.

Be aware that Dylan is not an expert on AR or his books. He does not in fact like him very much and isn't afraid of saying so. Putting that to one side, his film clips are most interesting. Further, there are a lot more clips than just those of AR waters -- season by season he's done all of the east coast, Orkney, and a good deal of Scotland.
posted via 124.171.131.134 user mikefield.


message 42750 - 07/08/16
From: PeterWillis, subject: Re: TV alert - no idea if worthwhile
Ivor Cutler, of Y'Hup, OMP (Obique Musical Philosopher) first came to my attention in I guess the late 1950s in a sort of compilation programme called Monday Night at Home, on the (then) Home Service. I was 15 or thereabouts, raised on the Goon Show, and worshipped him
posted via 2.27.236.238 user PeterWillis.
message 42749 - 07/08/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: 'Britain's Lost Waterlands - Escape to Swallows & Amazons Country'
I quite enjoyed it, although no more than that. The trouble for me was that by choosing to explore three places, they never quite got under the skin of any one.
The John Sargent programme, by using a clear AR enthusiast and giving the full hour to the Lake District was much more satisfying. And a BBC TV series "Keep Turning Right", in which a chap sailed around the British Isles in a yacht, did a much superior programme about Walton and Hanford Water, including some very nice sailing in inches of water, and the Red Sea, which brought SW very much to life. It was better because it took much more time in one place, including a lot more about sailing between markers an withies, and the history of explosives manufacturing, the quays and creeks for which explained a lot about the North West Passage.
Warning; this was some time ago, I haven't taken notes, but if you come across it, it's jolly good.
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.
message 42748 - 07/07/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: 'Britain's Lost Waterlands - Escape to Swallows & Amazons Country'
This was broadcast on BBC Four last night, a rather curious programme which I have to say only caught my attention because of the AR connection, unfortunately this was quite a tenuous one!

Dick Strawbridge and Alice Roberts (with Strawbridge getting most of the screen time) explored the Lake District, the Norfolk Broads, Pin Mill and the Essex Backwaters using AR's books as a starting point. Some attractive aerial shots of all the places which were good to see (particularly my own back yard!) but not much else of interest.

I began to wonder if this had been offered as an idea for a series (by the look of it from the company that make the 'Coast' programmes) and the BBC agreed to give them an hour!
posted via 2.29.89.64 user MTD.


message 42747 - 07/04/16
From: andy clayton, subject: Re: TV alert - no idea if worthwhile
I saw him on TV once or twice in the late 60s. Dave Alan, the comedian, did a programme about English eccentrics which Ivor featured in. He also featured in The Beatles Magical Mystery Tour film as one of the coach passengers. I think John asked him along as he appreciated his poetry.
posted via 146.199.108.8 user cousin_jack.
message 42746 - 07/03/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: TV alert - no idea if worthwhile
Thanks for the link Robert, like you I'd noticed it was on.

The photo on the link of Alice Roberts I'm fairly sure is the Backwaters (I've seen it often enough living nearby!)

Totally off-topic - Ivor Cutler, I wonder how many here will even be aware of him. I first heard of him on John Peel's radio programme.
posted via 95.146.184.224 user MTD.


message 42745 - 07/03/16
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: TV alert - no idea if worthwhile
Wednesday 6th July on BBC4 at 8.00pm - "Britain's Lost Waterlands - Escape to Swallows & Amazons Country".

The link at the bottom of this post is to the programme's page on the BBC website.

As luck would have it I have got a copy of the Radio Times this week (I bought it for the Ivor Cutler programme that went out this evening (Sunday) on Radio 3). It has a couple of paragraphs about this programme, one on the relevant listings page (p.87) and one on the corresponding features page (p.84). They don't say much that isn't in the website blurb, but it's described as "a gently bucolic diversion" and copper mines are mentioned.

posted via 2.31.118.69 user eclrh.
message 42744 - 07/03/16
From: Paul Mackness, subject: TV alert - no idea if worthwhile
Wednesday 6th July on BBC4 at 8.00pm - "Britain's Lost Waterlands - Escape to Swallows & Amazons Country".

Lake District, Suffolk coast and Broads apparently.
posted via 2.218.14.30 user PaulM.


message 42743 - 07/02/16
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Hair Colour
Dick goes into Mr Jemmerling and saw "the reddish hair of a man, the bird-man himself" (GN, Chapter 9). The Hullabaloo off the Margoletta, Ronald, is "a big red-haired man" (CC, Chapter 8). Both villains! But not "Red-haired Bill" jn Peter Duck. And Black Jake on the Viper is "a dark man with black hair".



posted via 202.49.156.87 user hugo.


message 42742 - 07/02/16
From: John Wilson, subject: Altounyans and Abercrombies
The S&A paperback editions all have dedications now, although the dedication of "Swallows and Amazons" to the Altounyans "To the Six for whom it was written, in exchange for a pair of slippers" was omitted by Arthur in 1958.

Swallowdale is dedicated to Elizabeth Abercrombie; was she the wife of his friend (1900s on) the poet Lascelles Abercrombie. Or perhaps Lascelles’ sister; if so did Arthur propose to her?

And re the Altounyan family, Taqui was born in 1917 and Mavis in 1920, but was Susan born in 1918 or 1919?

posted via 202.49.156.87 user hugo.


message 42741 - 07/02/16
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Hair Colour
Pete is "a small black-haired boy" (BS Chapter 3). And Titty says to Mother "It doesen’t matter a bit about your not having red hair" (like Queen Elizabeth I; in SA Chapter 2) without saying what colour it is.
posted via 202.49.156.87 user hugo.
message 42740 - 07/02/16
From: JonathanPearson, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
It's all very well bringing in new readers, which, of course, is a good thing, but will they be disappointed when they open the real Swallows and Amazons and fail to find the aeroplanes and the spies? On the other hand another side of me says, "That's rubbish!" My own introduction to Ransome came when I opened a copy of Winter Holiday and saw the chapter heading "Signalling to Mars". "Fantastic!" I thought, "science fiction!" and settled down to read, only to be captivated in quite a different way. Fifty-four years later, I'm still hooked.
posted via 151.226.183.52 user JonathanPearson.
message 42739 - 07/02/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Sudden endings was: Lydd international
perhaps it was a childhood desire (and sometimes an adulthood one) for them to never end!

I found the perfect workaround for that one: I just start reading one of the others again.
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42738 - 06/30/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Sudden endings was: Lydd international
On reflection you're right Peter, perhaps it was a childhood desire (and sometimes an adulthood one) for them to never end!
posted via 95.146.63.203 user MTD.
message 42737 - 06/29/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Sudden endings was: Lydd international
A long description of a homeward journey is in danger of seeming an anticlimax after the main events.

AR knew how to structure his stories, and as you say, a long tail can so easily be an anticlimax.
On the other hand, doesn't SA have a longish "after the storm" sequence, when the mothers come to Wild Cat Island? A relaxing wrap-up?
And of course, WD has a rather splendid homeward journey with Daddy at the helm with a friendly and protective glowing Dutch cigar? These are skilful post-action gentle let-downs.
And, in BS, there's the whole Roaring Donkey sequence with one of AR's best gems of philosophy: "Poor lads, so young and nothing left to live for." I remember not really understanding that when I first read it, but it's been one of the most memorable phrases from the books as I've seen it happen since. Mostly to other people, thank god.
By and large, thinking about it, AR did rather well with the tail ends.
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42736 - 06/29/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Abrupt endings, was Re: Lydd international
Not the missing chapter I had in mind!
posted via 92.25.150.197 user Mike_Jones.
message 42735 - 06/29/16
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Lydd international
I always thought reading PD and ML how AR dealt with the homeward journey in just a few pages, and even now find it slightly disappointing.

That's true of probably every "there and back again" adventure story I've ever read, heard or seen.

As I've just quoted its subtitle let's use The Hobbit as an example. There's an introductory chapter to introduce the characters and tell the backstory; then chapters 2-10, comprising about 60% of the total length of the book, cover the outward journey. Events at the destination occupy chapters 11-17, and even most of chapter 18 despite its title being "The Return Journey". The actual return journey is covered in the remainder of that chapter and the short chapter 19.

It's much the same in Treasure Island, We Didn't Mean to Go to Sea, She and lots of others.

The Lord of the Rings is something of an exception as there are still six chapters to after the climax, two or three of which cover the return journey, though they are short by the standards of the chapters in the early part of the book.

I think it's more or less inevitable. A long description of a homeward journey is in danger of seeming an anticlimax after the main events.

posted via 2.31.118.69 user eclrh.


message 42734 - 06/29/16
From: Tom Napier, subject: Abrupt endings, was Re: Lydd international
On rereading GN for the first time in sixty years I wondered if the paperback publishers had left a chapter out. I have this image of Mr. Jemmerling backed up against a rock for all eternity, waiting, like the readers, for some resolution.

posted via 108.16.164.208 user Didymus.
message 42733 - 06/28/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Lydd international
Thanks again Peter, and for bringing back to AR!

I agree about time, in childhood and early adulthood I always thought time was 'slow' now days, weeks and months seem to speed past but I put this down to just getting older. Then my wife's granddaughter when she was 9 or 10 (she's now 20) complained one day of how fast the days and weeks went! So it does seem time is squeezed!

I always thought reading PD and ML how AR dealt with the homeward journey in just a few pages, and even now find it slightly disappointing.
posted via 95.146.63.203 user MTD.


message 42732 - 06/28/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Lydd international
off topic it may be, but a fascinating story and insight in to the world as it was then

Well yes. I'm thinking back to how things changed, especially how the world was so much bigger in AR's early days. Reading the excellent "Last Englisman" life of AR, one of the striking things was how important train journeys were, as they appeared in the stories, and how for AR in Russia they must have been such a large part of his life; getting around was so important, and so difficult. Also, reading about his trips to Russia, starting from Ipswich, wasn't it, where he threw his bag onto the deck as it left port and jumped after it. And it took a day or more to get to the Baltic, where the real hard bit started, playing chess for his life... We have it so easy, it's hard to imagine. The last time I had a trip into Russia (it was still just the Soviet Union, I think) we were going to Krasnoyarsk, to talk to some scientists who'd lived for a year in a sealed stainless steel pod, simulating a trip to Mars. We were held up for four hours (four hours! because they'd run out of jet fuel at Sheremetyevo (the old Moscow airport). It was winter in Siberia, and Russian soldiers really did have snow on their (very comfortable) felt boots.
How long did it take the Wild Cat to get to the Caribbean? And how long does it take a Scarab to sail the length of Windermere? That's a question, by the way; I have no idea. And I know it doesn't really have a single answer.
Apart from the phenomenal increase in general wealth, it seems to me that the greatest change has been the squeezing of time. An Irish friend of mine used to say, when we tried to get him to hurry a little, "My old dad used to say, 'when God made time, he made plenty'."
I think that was a heck of lot more true in AR's time than it is now.
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42731 - 06/27/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Lydd international
Peter - off topic it may be, but a fascinating story and insight in to the world as it was then (and other AR fans lives!) Thank you.
posted via 95.146.63.203 user MTD.
message 42730 - 06/27/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Lydd international
the one I was talking about was called the Silver Arrow

Yes! Now you mention it, it all comes flooding back. I never used it, because by that time I reckon I had the Mini, and that was what I used. Of course it was named after the Golden Arrow, which was the previous luxury link to Paris.
My cross channel life started in (I think) 1945, after VE Day and before VJ Day. My uncle, Dr Marcel Junod (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Junod) was being posted to Manchuria to inspect Japanese POW camps there, and asked to see us before he went, as it was potentially a dodgy job. He'd previously represented the Red Cross in Abyssinia, the Spanish Civil War, the Second World War in Europe, during which we'd see him when he commuted (more or less) between Berlin and London via Lisbon, and now Japan. He got us a special visa. We travelled on the packet "Canterbury" via Newhaven Dieppe because Calais harbour was totally smashed up and unusable. The channel had paths swept clear of mines, although sailors were posted as lookouts for random floaters. My sister and I were 3 and 5 years old, and travelled overnight in the ship's infirmary, which was wonderfully comfortable. Going via Victoria in the evening, I vividly remember the row of engines getting up steam, calm evening, smoke rising straight up... The morning was gorgeous, bright sunshine, blue water and flat calm. I'd never been on a ship before. At Dieppe, the stevedores handling the gangplanks were calling out "Regardez les petits Anglais!" I was told that we were the first civilian children to cross the channel after the war. The train journey to Paris was very slow (some of the track seemed to have been laid directly on the side of the streets; all the bridges were down, spans lying N-wise in the river and the train crossed on military box girder bridges just nearby) You can imagine how wildly exciting it was for a little boy. We stayed with my aunt in Paris, which compared with London at the time was incredibly lively, Jeeps with military police in white helmets rattling across the cobbles, everything smelt of sewage and black tobacco.
From Paris to Geneva, we continued by Swissair DC3, to chocolate! Chocolate! CHOCOLATE!
No subsequent trip was remotely as extraordinary. And I'm sorry if this is off topic, or I've posted the story before; it's just such a key memory and I really hope you'll forgive me. I'm an old codger now...

posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.
message 42729 - 06/27/16
From: Peter Truelove, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
Yes..........spot on Dave. Having seen the trailer and now the whole film at a TARS pre-release showing in Kendal, I can confirm that "The Lake of Adventure" is just what it is. As a representation of A.R.'s work and Swallows and Amazons in particular...... the connection is somewhat tenuous. That said it is a cracking good adventure story for youngsters with enough nods in A.R.'s direction for the associations with the original work to peep in here and there. Give it a go.... I want to see it again. Absolutely not for the purist but great fun. Very fast lugsail dimghy (hint.... there is an engine involved).
posted via 95.144.141.194 user jacpet.
message 42728 - 06/24/16
From: Dan Lind, subject: Re: St Petersburg
Isn't that the place from where he wrote the little poem about bugs - big enough to carry you away - or something like that?
posted via 70.78.126.205 user captain.
message 42727 - 06/24/16
From: John Nichols, subject: Old AR
Imagine the note AR would have written after last night.

Wales finally beats England to the punch.

God is dead -
posted via 165.91.12.62 user Mcneacail.


message 42726 - 06/23/16
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Lydd international
Not quite the same service. I've remembered now, the one I was talking about was called the Silver Arrow. I can't remember how we got to Lydd, but there was a passenger plane (not the car ferry Bristol Freighter) to Le Touquet, and an SNCF railcar direct from the plane to Paris.
posted via 72.2.235.238 user awhakim.
message 42725 - 06/22/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Lydd international
There was also a rail/air passenger service, with a special branch line into Le Touquet airport. A railcar for Paris Nord came right up to the plane. That sounds like the route Peter used.

Not that sophisticated. When I did my trip, the nearest railhead was at Etaples town, with no obvious way to reach it. There were people using the air bridge the way it was intended, with cars, and I did a quick canvas as they unloaded, getting a lift into the town from a nice bunch of chaps in a Land Rover, who dropped me off at the railway station. Where, with comms and computers yet to be invented, they didn't know that they shouldn't sell me a Paris-Geneva ticket. That was a real stroke of luck.
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42724 - 06/22/16
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: A better idea for a film...
I'd love to see a decent film of Winter Holiday, it could be a real natural with the storyline.
posted via 24.156.57.171 user dthewlis.
message 42723 - 06/22/16
From: Patrick Fox, subject: Re: A better idea for a film...
Its a clever idea - the story seen from the perspective of the Amazons is significantly different. It does, however, end in "defeat" in the war, which probably means it works less well in narrative terms. And once the war is over, the two perspectives more or less become one anyway.

The thing that most annoys me about the new film - which, having seen the trailer, I don't think I'll be watching - is that rather than needing to vandalise the storyline of Swallows and Amazons itself the script writers could have used any of nine other existing stories starring the same characters which have not been filmed before. My eight year old daughter was asking just last night if there was not a film of Pigeon Post, and Sophie Neville's book reveals that unfilmed screenplays were written not just for that book but for Great Northern and Winter Holiday too, any of which I'd love to see on screen...

Cheers
Patrick
posted via 185.58.164.43 user PJF.


message 42722 - 06/22/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Lydd international
Couldn't you have hitched a ride with a friendly wherryman who could have passed you in to a tugboat skipper and then on to some strange barge owning couple? Much more Ransomeish.

Yes, but I had this problem. I wanted to get there before the next year...
The AR sidebar would be him throwing his bag onto the boat to catch a passage to the Baltic and on to Russia. But holding on to his typewriter. AR had his priorities right.
Me; when I finally got to Geneva, I helped my mum hang up animal drawings in her classroom, for Christmas. Smashing pictures, great Christmas.
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42721 - 06/21/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
Thanks Alan, I did think there was some event behind that part of WD.
posted via 2.28.84.113 user MTD.
message 42720 - 06/21/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Lydd international
Ah well, I've still got the passport (somewhere!)
posted via 2.28.84.113 user MTD.
message 42719 - 06/21/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: A better idea for a film...
The worrying thing is the producers are probably thinking about contacting you for the 'rights'!
posted via 2.28.84.113 user MTD.
message 42718 - 06/21/16
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Lydd international
Silver City were certainly running the Lydd-Le Touquet car ferry service in 1959, at least until the mid 60s. There was also a rail/air passenger service, with a special branch line into Le Touquet airport. A railcar for Paris Nord came right up to the plane. That sounds like the route Peter used.
I forget when it was discontinued; probably the early 70s.
As for US visas in expired passports, my understanding is they only work for the validity of the next passport. I have used one like that, but I'm now on to the 3rd generation passport.
posted via 72.2.235.238 user awhakim.
message 42717 - 06/21/16
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
AR certainly had problems bringing Eugenia into England, which is why he lurked in the Baltic for so long. He was married at the British Consulate in Reval (now Tallinn, Estonia) in 1924, and then of course could bring her in legally as his wife with no special formalities.
He wrote a wonderful 'Saturday Essay' for the Manchester Guardian on the hazards of crossing frontiers with difficult customs men. The episode in WD is probably revisiting that territory.
posted via 72.2.235.238 user awhakim.
message 42716 - 06/21/16
From: Andy, subject: A better idea for a film...
Amazons and Swallows.

The Amazons are in trouble. Since acquiring a sailing boat last year, after a mere rowing boat in previous years, Nancy and Peggy Blackett are eager to use it on the lake during their summer holidays, and especially to use it to camp on their island.

But things have gone sour.

Their Uncle Jim has wanted nothing to do with them throughout the holidays, their Great Aunt Marie has turned up, demanding that they act as perfect young ladies, present for every mealtime, and - as she's about to return to Harrogate, and given them a day free - they spot campfire smoke on Wildcat Island showing them that a group of non-lake children, with access to the Holly Howe dinghy, have started to camp there.

Everything looks bleak...

Andy
posted via 92.22.42.117 user Andy.


message 42714 - 06/21/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Lydd international
Couldn't you have hitched a ride with a friendly wherryman who could have passed you in to a tugboat skipper and then on to some strange barge owning couple? Much more Ransomeish.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 42713 - 06/21/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Lydd international
Thanks for that Peter, quite an adventure!
posted via 2.28.84.113 user MTD.
message 42712 - 06/21/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Lydd international
Branching off from AR for a moment Peter - Lydd airport in '67, my family had moved nearby a year or so before (I was 14), I didn't realise Lydd took international flights.

Silver City used to run a cross-channel air ferry service, using Bristol Freighters. First from Lympne, then later (certainly by '67) from Lydd. I drove Minis, it wasn't terribly expensive, and so much better than the ferries, that I always used it. The French end of the service was at Le Touquet. So yes, they were frequent, international, 20 minute flights.
They turned out to be a life saver one year. I was at school in London, my parents lived in Geneva. One Christmas, the continent was cut off by fog. All flights from Heathrow were cancelled, no further bookings being taken. All the ferries were confined to port; no way home....
I checked, and Silver City were still flying. I had a friend who lived in Ashford. So I got a ticket there by train, a lift by car to Lympne, plane to Le Touquet, hitched on one of the cars to the station and bought a through ticket to Geneva. Just as well; changing stations in Paris, I found that all airports there were socked in too, and they had stopped selling train tickets to Geneva. But my ticket from Le Touquet was still valid, and I got the train (one through carriage and a sleeping car) at the Gare de Lyon. A nightmare; standing room only in the corridor, so crowded we put the luggage in the connecting accordion so there was nothing to sit on. I tried sitting in there, but it was so cold and draughty that I could only bear it for half an hour. And I thought I was tough in those days. Eight and a half hours to Geneva.
Boo.
But it was a lovely Christmas.
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42711 - 06/21/16
From: P L Ceresole, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
Sinbad should have been quarantined, as you say.

My apologies. It was Adam Quinan, quoting the BBC.
Thanks, Adam, for that info.
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42710 - 06/21/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
Branching off from AR for a moment Peter - Lydd airport in '67, my family had moved nearby a year or so before (I was 14), I didn't realise Lydd took international flights.

As for the passport, I'm sure I've read somewhere the US visa is still valid!
posted via 2.28.84.113 user MTD.


message 42709 - 06/21/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
I still have a blue passport with an old USA visa stamped in it!

With the corner cut off, and a hole stamped through the body? I had one like that too. I remember keeping it for the US visa...

I was just probably thinking too much on the comment, though didn't AR have trouble getting Evgenia in to the UK?

I can't remember about that, but it stands to reason; when he brought her over, there would have been visa requirements. Especially during the Intervention in Russia.
When I brought my unblushing Swiss bride over here in '67, they checked her out at Lydd in a few minutes, and put a tiny triangular stamp on a crowded page in her Swiss passport, and that was all it took; she was in, and resident for ever.
I'd forgotten about the rabies regulations. Sinbad should have been quarantined, as you say. I don't know if AR was making a special point about Commander Walker's arrival having been notified to the immigration office, so that they were especially accommodating (which he showed clearly enough).
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42708 - 06/21/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
I wondered when the anti-rabies quarantine rules for pets and other animals was brought in?

The BBC story about the relaxing of the regulations in 2011 says:

"Dogs entering the UK have been subject to the quarantine since 1897. Cats were added in 1928, and ferrets in 2004".

Surely a random kitten picked up at sea with no papers and provenance should have been locked away before it could set a paw on land and if they had tried to smuggle it in and been caught, the Walkers would have been heavily fined. Of course that would have meant Sinbad being unavailable for Bridget luring duties in Secret Water.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 42707 - 06/21/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
I remember those days as well Peter (I still have a blue passport with an old USA visa stamped in it!) I was just probably thinking too much on the comment, though didn't AR have trouble getting Evgenia in to the UK?
posted via 2.28.84.113 user MTD.
message 42706 - 06/21/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
was AR making a comment about immigration etc (the difficulties of it) in the bringing of the cat back in WDMTGTS?

Don't you think that might be a subtlety too far?
He was a children's writer, full of tradecraft, and he knew that the kitten would be a splendid addition to please his readers. And the rescue would make a very exciting episode.
He did include the scene with the Customs and Immigration officers, but at the time (and until the EEC in the early '60s) that was the way things were (I well remember the boring visas and having a passport full of official stamps- and how irritating it was at the port of entry).
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42705 - 06/20/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
An amusing point! More likely The Goblin would have been used in the evacuation of Dunkirk.

But it occurs to me, was AR making a comment about immigration etc (the difficulties of it) in the bringing of the cat back in WDMTGTS?
posted via 2.28.84.113 user MTD.


message 42704 - 06/20/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
And in a very topical sequel The Goblin could be used to ferry illegal immigrants/refugee children across from Flushing.
posted via 92.25.159.196 user Mike_Jones.
message 42703 - 06/20/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
OK, I don't see S&A as a 'film noir' but surely there's room for a new approach - I mean really new.

Yes, of course. How about transferring it directly into the present time, emphasising the health and safety stuff, and modern "fear for the children" that now seems so common- probably due to present day crowding, so that the children would continually encounter people on their climbs and treks. And within that, have children that have read the books and are determined to have AR '30s-style adventures.
That could set up plenty of tensions that an audience could empathise with, including a critical view of our contemporary safety obsessions. Maybe they could befriend "dodgy" foreign children, say Syrians, who would be tainted with "terrorist" associations, who turn out to be absolutely nothing of the kind, just good friends who join in the adventures, to the doubts of their parents too. Resolution; they have their splendid adventure, enjoy themselves triumphantly and achieve great things despite general suspicion. Cragfast sheep saved, deportation order against Syrian parents suspended...
Howzabout it?
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42702 - 06/19/16
From: Alan Hakim, subject: St Petersburg
Having just had a short visit, I can report that AR's Glinka street apartment (judging from notices in the windows) appears to be available to rent.
posted via 72.2.235.238 user awhakim.
message 42701 - 06/19/16
From: Dan Lind, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
Looks like a WEBLEY .38 SHORT SIX SHOT REVOLVER - Often called the Wobbley Webley
posted via 70.78.126.205 user captain.
message 42700 - 06/19/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
This is a film, not a Sunday evening 'period costume' TV serial.

Yes, Sunday period serials are well done as a rule and I watch them myself, but what I meant was that a film maker can experiment (finance permitting) and be daring with interpretation and technical methods. OK, I don't see S&A as a 'film noir' but surely there's room for a new approach - I mean really new. Maybe the trailer flags up one or two fresh ideas but it signifies the same dramatic and pictorial concept.
posted via 86.182.41.55 user Peter_H.


message 42699 - 06/19/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
No, but if it isn't an improvement then it ought to be different

From the trailer it does look pretty different. Some similar elements, but a completely different feel. The 1974 film was deliberately idyllic, very gentle cup-of-tea Englishness, and it worked very well.
This one looks (as far as you can tell from a trailer) more brassy, shinier. Different emphasis.

This is a film, not a Sunday evening 'period costume' TV serial.

I'd say the historical TV serials are nowadays often more true to life, have more philosophy behind them and are better written than cinema films. Much of that having to do with them having more time, over several episodes, to tell their stories.
We'll have to see. I'm afraid that this is a case of "Hurry up and wait".

posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42698 - 06/18/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
It doesn't have to be an improvement

No, but if it isn't an improvement then it ought to be different - one or the other. From the trailer I see another version of the 1974 film - desperately shouting children against a background of the usual jolly rollicking music, skull and crossbones flapping in wind machines etc, except that they have tacked on the spy nonsense at the end and the cast is less well chosen. It was fine in 1974, but now I would expect a total new approach. This is a film, not a Sunday evening 'period costume' TV serial.
posted via 86.182.41.55 user Peter_H.


message 42697 - 06/18/16
From: Ross, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
And if a slightly twisted story line brings new readers to S&A, how can that not be a good thing?

We should be promoting this film everywhere we can. Take the grandkids or the neighborhood kids and engage them in a conversation of the differences over ice-cream afterwards.
posted via 184.151.63.163 user rlcossar.


message 42696 - 06/18/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
If they wanted a Buchan-based film starring children, it would presumably have to feature the Gorbals Die-Hards or Dick Hannay's son. I can see the attraction of the Ransome children.
posted via 92.25.147.112 user Mike_Jones.
message 42695 - 06/18/16
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
Going only on comments (haven't seen the trailer yet) it sounds a bit like an attempt to conflate Ransome and Blyton, maybe "The Lake of Adventure".
posted via 24.156.9.237 user dthewlis.
message 42694 - 06/18/16
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
Going only on comments (haven't seen the trailer yet) it sounds a bit like an attempt to conflate Ransome and Blyton, maybe "The Lake of Adventure".
posted via 24.156.9.237 user dthewlis.
message 42693 - 06/18/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
Interesting trailer, but how is this an improvement on the 1974 Claude Whatham film?

It depends what you call an improvement- it doesn't have to be that. They are clearly totally different, and made with a different idea in mind.
If it sells as well, or better, that will be all that's required of it.
I wonder why they chose SA, rather than one of the Buchan novels, which I would have thought more in line with their ideas?
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42692 - 06/18/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
I'll probably buy it on DVD when it's sold off cheap! But no doubt us cynics will be ignored and it will be a massive hit!
posted via 95.146.189.24 user MTD.
message 42691 - 06/18/16
From: Ross, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
It doesn't have to be an improvement. It can introduce a slight twist to the plot. I bet that, particularly in Britain, that there will be a measurable increase in book sales this fall and in my mind any increase of interest in this 80 year old series of books is a good thing.

I'm looking forward to it.
posted via 184.151.37.93 user rlcossar.


message 42690 - 06/18/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
Short answer -- it's not.

Personally, I have no intention of seeing it.
posted via 124.171.131.134 user mikefield.


message 42689 - 06/17/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
Interesting trailer, but how is this an improvement on the 1974 Claude Whatham film?
posted via 86.182.41.55 user Peter_H.
message 42688 - 06/17/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
I share your doubts about the apparent age gap between the older and younger Swallows. If J and S were fully fledged teenagers they would not tolerate camping with very young siblings. I was also taken aback by the Amazons' headdresses, but I thought I saw them wearing their red caps when actually sailing.
posted via 92.25.147.112 user Mike_Jones.
message 42687 - 06/17/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
Having watched the trailer again, some second thoughts.

If Barbara Altounyan was annoyed by what she had heard they had done, will she be really angry when she sees this?

Seems as if they have done as the producers of the James Bond franchise have done, bought the title and the character's names and used them to make the film they actually wanted to produce.

Casting seems a bit odd, John and Susan too old then Titty and Roger too young.

The Amazon's masks and wigs goes against the very character of Nancy, she clearly sees being an Amazon pirate a real and serious business (in WH when meeting Dick and Dorothea she asks somewhat frustratedly 'But what are you in real life!' apologies if I've misquoted here.) The two of them in the trailer look as though they are children playing games. Would red caps mark them out as Communists (and so spoil the plot), to borrow a notion from an Arlo Guthrie song!

The reviews upon release in August will be very interesting.
posted via 95.150.15.193 user MTD.


message 42686 - 06/17/16
From: Ross, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
If it comes to Canada, I'll go see it. It might help me hook my eight grandchildren
posted via 184.151.37.93 user rlcossar.
message 42685 - 06/16/16
From: Jon, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
From the look of it, he was skipping a stone and it kept going long enough to hit the houseboat. So, an accident. They presumably thought it a more reasonable cause for Capt. Flint going off at the Swallows than his seeing them sail by a half hour after the firework went off and concluding that they were responsible.

I had a bit of trouble with the anachronistic floatplane, too.
posted via 69.140.32.156 user Jon.


message 42684 - 06/16/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
What was powering "Swallow" at 2.06? I can't believe a lug-sailed dinghy could travel that fast without a motor!

Yes, I was wondering about that- I was looking for the tow rope. And there's a modern Cessna float plane in grey drab at one point.
But these are nerd points... And quite right too...
I was also wondering about John breaking a houseboat window with a stone. Not very John-like.
Best to forget the AR connection and take it as a children's film. It might well be okay.
I liked Nancy's accent, and Mrs Walker might as well be Scottish as Australian (I'm presuming that they've left out the bit where she talks about being in the outback as a girl), but I'm not sure about the Amazons' "savage" wigs. Maybe red caps not thought startling enough...
I think it'll be worth a watch, but preferably on DVD, for me.
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42683 - 06/16/16
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
What was powering "Swallow" at 2.06? I can't believe a lug-sailed dinghy could travel that fast without a motor!

I'm willing to keep an open mind and will be going to see the whole film.
posted via 109.150.85.83 user MartinH.


message 42682 - 06/16/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
First thought - what a strange collection of accents! Particularly Mrs Walker!
posted via 95.150.15.193 user MTD.
message 42681 - 06/16/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
The reference to Hitchcock's Thirty-Nine Steps (Captain Flint clinging to outside of railway carriage) confirms what we already knew; it's a "based on" approach, not a faithful adaptation. But that didn't stop Hitchcock's mangling of Buchan's plot making a great film, so the new S and A may be a good film on its own terms.

On balance, the trailer made me want to take my grandson to see it when the time comes.
posted via 92.25.153.13 user Mike_Jones.


message 42680 - 06/16/16
From: M Jones, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
There’s some grave turning going on I fear! I am sure I would be quite interested to see it if it had no relation to Swallows and Amazons (it may only in characters and name alone!) It does not seem to connect with that sacred feel that the canon has… there’s some grave turning going on!

posted via 192.171.44.41 user MJone21.
message 42679 - 06/16/16
From: Andy, subject: Re: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
As a trailer for some children's spy-thriller set in the 30's, fair enough.

But it feels so NOT 'Swallows and Amazons'. I'll pass, thank you.

Andy
posted via 92.22.57.93 user Andy.


message 42678 - 06/16/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: New Swallows and Amazons film trailer
So what do you think of this?


posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 42677 - 06/14/16
From: Robert Hill, subject: Lakeland Cam shows slate plaque
My second somewhat-PP-related item today:

The Lakeland Cam visited the closed Kirkstone Slate Quarry and pictured, among other things, a plaque mentioning slate and fool's gold.

As always with the Cam, if the picture of the plaque has gone from its front page try the "This Week on the Cam" button.

posted via 2.31.117.241 user eclrh.
message 42676 - 06/14/16
From: Robert Hill, subject: Coniston copper mine preserved with Lottery cash
Today I have two items somewhat related to PP - both mentioning fool's gold! I'll put them in two separate posts.

First, a BBC news item: Coniston copper mine preserved with Lottery cash.

posted via 2.31.117.241 user eclrh.
message 42675 - 06/13/16
From: Mark Walker, subject: Re: Roger and chocolate
If Ed or anyone else would like to see the article resulting from the 'chocolate' research, email me on buz_zook (at) hotmail (dot) com

Cheers
Mark
posted via 124.168.177.159 user Buzzook.


message 42674 - 06/09/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: S & A Still popular
Using Amazon listings as a proxy, it would appear that SA is still quite popular on the UK website.
........
However in the US it is not nearly so popular

I suspect that this is the heart of it; for the US producers, SA is rather a punt.
It might do all right in Britain, but the British market these days is "nice to have", and to get a decent return these days you need to sell more widely, especially in the USA. So they'll be very sensitive to things that might make the film fizzle over there. Hence the Dick Barton stuff, and the name change.
The film might take off- stranger things have been known- but on the whole, I think maybe they're being quite brave.

posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42673 - 06/06/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: S & A Still popular
Using Amazon listings as a proxy, it would appear that SA is still quite popular on the UK website.
Amazon Bestsellers Rank: 820 in Books (See Top 100 in Books)
#2 in Books > Children's Books > Fiction > Sports
#20 in Books > Children's Books > Fiction > Action & Adventure
#22 in Books > Children's Books > Fiction > Classics

However in the US it is not nearly so popular
Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #505,820 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)
#862 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Children's eBooks > Sports & Outdoors
#910 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Children's eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Classics
#2919 in Books > Children's Books > Sports & Outdoors

In Canada it seems more popular in some (possibly limited categories)
Amazon Bestsellers Rank: #3,225 in Books (See Top 100 in Books)
#6 in Books > Children's Books > Sports & Outdoors > Sports
#6 in Books > Teens > School & Sports > Fiction
#64 in Books > Children's Books > Classics

Checking the rest of the series shows that sales are much lower for them.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 42672 - 06/06/16
From: Duncan, subject: Re: New S&A film (again & again)
Oh I'm disappointed that Melanie Phillips likes Swallows and Amazons. Most "celebrity" fans are quite likeable...
posted via 212.219.3.8 user Duncan.
message 42671 - 06/03/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: S & A Still popular
I suppose that the real test of this has to be the current world-wide sales figures, including Kindle sales, although that will of course include old farts (as in: me) who buy and read only Kindle copies because that way I can carry them around most easily.
As for the Cape Greenbacks and the paperbacks, let the bookshelf take the strain...
My Google-Fu isn't up to finding the numbers quickly, and many parents will be passing their existing books to their children, but that would be the only valid measure.
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.
message 42670 - 06/02/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: New S&A film (again & again)
Martin asks: I am rather out of touch with what youngsters are reading today. Do the popular books still feature the freedoms of those I mentioned?

The answer is yes! But not all books, of course. Here's a sample of the most popular multi-book authors from my daughters' bookshelves (last 5 years, approx). I am generalising/summarising heavily here...

The Hunger Games: Child protagonist is main carer for her family (trespasses daily into massive woodland area to hunt for food), then goes into an arena to battle other children to the death. Adults stick to politics.

Anything by David Walliams: Child protagonist usually has to sort out troublesome adult. Family are present but often unhelpful. Set within confines of a town.

Anything by Jacqueline Wilson: Stories usually depict dysfunctional family, or deal with first romances. Set within confines of a town.

Anything by Michael Morpurgo: Huge variety. I can think of at least one which qualifies as exploration/freedom/adventure with no parents.

Anything by Louis Sachar: Varies. One or two have exploration/freedom/adventure with no parents.

Diary of a Wimpy Kid: Set in school and at home.

Artemis Fowl series: Child protagonist is a criminal mastermind!

Alex Rider series: Child protagonist is an international spy! Adventure occurs in a different way, where the adult safety net comes and goes.
posted via 81.156.112.198 user Magnus.


message 42669 - 06/01/16
From: Martin Honor, subject: S & A Still popular
I was teaching some very basic navigation to a mixed group of young sailors last night and mentioned leading marks. Immediately one said "like Swallows And Amazons". A quick show of hands and I found that 3 of the group of 5 had read at least one of the books. Of course this was not a good sample - these were those youngsters who had an interest in sailing, possibly stimulated by the books. Despite the fears in some quartets that children are wedded to their digital devices I think there is still the same interest for the outdoors and adventure, we don't always recognise and encourage it.
posted via 86.145.173.240 user MartinH.
message 42668 - 06/01/16
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: New S&A film (again & again)
Ed is quite right. The best children's books, and the best childhoods, are where the adults take a step back and facilitate the adventures rather than control them. Swallows and Amazons, Harry Potter, The Railway Children all feature situations that allow children freedom to explore their worlds. Usually there is an adult safety net somewhere in the background but usually not interfering unless required.

I am rather out of touch with what youngsters are reading today. Do the popular books still feature the freedoms of those I mentioned?
posted via 86.145.173.240 user MartinH.


message 42667 - 06/01/16
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: New S&A film (again & again)
Ed is quite right. The best children's books, and the best childhoods, are where the adults take a step back and facilitate the adventures rather than control them. Swallows and Amazons, Harry Potter, The Railway Children all feature situations that allow children freedom to explore their worlds. Usually there is an adult safety net somewhere in the background but usually not interfering unless required.

I am rather out of touch with what youngsters are reading today. Do the popular books still feature the freedoms of those I mentioned?
posted via 86.145.173.240 user MartinH.


message 42666 - 06/01/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: New S&A film (again & again)
A hard-hitter, certainly, but unkind to describe Commander Walker as travelling on "his merchant ship" when he was in Malta but under orders for Hong Kong.
posted via 92.25.156.20 user Mike_Jones.
message 42665 - 05/31/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Hair Colour
Interesting, despite many readings of both books these references have passed me by!
posted via 95.146.63.80 user MTD.
message 42664 - 05/31/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: New S&A film (again & again)
Melanie Phillips! Now that is a surprise, and as you say a 'hard-hitter'.

It does begin to look that you are right, its all 'good' publicity for a film that may have not got the attention they wanted. Was this the problem with the first attempt that was abandoned a few years before?
posted via 95.146.63.80 user MTD.


message 42663 - 05/31/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: New S&A film (again & again)
So well put Luke!
posted via 95.146.63.80 user MTD.
message 42662 - 05/31/16
From: LukeDolman, subject: Re: New S&A film (again & again)
My apologies if I'm rehashing anything. I can't view the Times story online.

This film would seem destined to be the proverbial "Curate's Egg" - good in parts but not really pleasing anyone.

I'm just imagining a herd of focus-group-typical teens at a cinema...

"Hey Dude! Let's catch 'Transformer Turtle Heroes Versus Alien Mind Apocalypse'! It's like yeah, soooo machines 'n' slime duuuude"

"Nahh, that sounds totes rank man... I wunna go see Swallows 'n' Amazons, 'cuz I hearz it's got a SPY in it. I wasna gunna see it 'cuz I was a bit worrid I might giggle at a girlz name, but it's all good now 'cuz they changed her to Tatty instead".

Hmmm. No. Call me cynical but I can't see the 'yoof' flocking to this one. So why risk alienating your core, target audience by changing the plot and character names of such a well known and well loved story? Numerous costume dramas and adaptations of literary masterpieces have shown that there is a domestic and indeed worldwide demand for the gentler, genuine article. Wouldn't it have been wonderful if the producers had stuck to their guns (if they ever had guns to stick to) and simply trusted AR's storytelling?

I well remember how utterly disappointed I was when I finally watched the 1986 "Biggles" film as a teenager and slowly realized the full significance of the sub title "Adventures in Time". It was terrible and I turned it off halfway through. Ironically, I saw "Aces High" (1976) for the first time, shortly afterwards, and loved it. I've watched it at least half a dozen times since; this latest with my own son.

We don't need to dumb down literary adaptations for children and I would once have expected more of the BBC (Kitty "blip" aside). Sadly we seem to be living in an era where the satire of "W1A" is truly art, imitating life, imitating art.

Best regards
Luke



posted via 64.124.63.254 user LukeDolman.


message 42661 - 05/31/16
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: New S&A film (again & again)
The fascination I felt as a child reading SWALLOWS AND AMAZONS
was in feeling the excitement of their being "on their own."
They set up their tents, gathered firewood, made a fire and
boiled water for tea and for boiled eggs. They pan fried
fish they had caught themselves. They were able to get away
from the immediate presence of the adults.

Of course, the adults played their part, on certain occasions,
as when Mom rowed down to the island with additional cargo that
did not fit in SWALLOW on her first trip to the island. They
had daily contact with Mrs Dixon to get their daily supply of
eggs. Although not all that blatantly stated, there was that
likelihood that there was communication between Mrs. Dixon an
Mom back at Holly Howe. The children sent written notes by
"native post" to Mom, mainly to say all was ok. Mom did come
by and visit the evening Titty was found to be alone on the
island and shared the cooking with her as "man Friday." The
day after the storm, the natives swarmed in to see how their
young people managed, with Mrs. Blackett, Captain Flint, Mr.
and Mrs.Dixon, Mr. Jackson with their mom. To me, it was
significant that with the storm pending, the adults did
not come to take them home before the storm, but let them
stay - and then of course immediately afterwards come to check
out the results.

But for the most part, it was the children doing for themselves,
and it that was the delight of the adventure that I felt as
a young reader of the story.

Then, I saw a photo of the four actors that are to play the
roles of the SWALLOWS. I was disappointed. There were two
ADULTS with two young children. That ADULT presence takes
away the whole point of the adventure. They are not the
"John" and "Susan" I knew from the story.

As for Nazi Spies? That just is not a part of the story. That
would be just as meaningful as a visit by Harry Potter flying
to the Wildcat camp on his broom. And how about getting a WWII
Sunderland flying boat to land on The Lake.

But there is a worth while change yet to be considered,
and that would be to call this "movie" any thing else other
than SWALLOWS AND AMAZONS, because that is not what it is.
It is not about the friends I enjoyed in my childhood, and
in the many times I have slipped away to be with them again,
to shed my years, and to once again be young, to be a part
of this wonderful rite of passage to learn to take on
a certain degree of self-responsibility.

Think I'll go watch my 1974 movie again, the one with FOUR
CHILDREN camping out together. As Walter Cronkite used
to say: "And that's the way it was."

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 42660 - 05/31/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Hair Colour
From 'The Big Six', chapter IX:
A smallish boy with large black-rimmed spectacles and a girl with straw-coloured plaits flying in the wind raced across the lawn to join Tom at the water’s edge.

From, 'Secret Water', chapter VIII:
A boy had come through the Speedy’s fore (and only) hatch.... He had a mop of stiff sandy hair. His eyes shone bright blue in a face burnt brick red by the sun.

Are these the only times a main character's hair colour is mentioned? I tried searching for the word "ginger" and got more results than I wanted!

The illustrations, being limited by black ink, often suggest everyone has dark hair. Dot in particular I thought was dark brown/black-haired for years, especially after seeing photos of Tabitha Ransome with huge plaits. I had forgotten the "straw coloured" reference above.
posted via 81.156.112.198 user Magnus.


message 42659 - 05/31/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: New S&A film (again & again)
Can't argue with Ms Phillips.

Bowdlerisation should be right out (as has been said here before). If you don't like something the way it was written, then either grimace and use it the way it is, or don't use it at all. Changing it to suit your own whim-of-the-moment is on an equally evil scale as plagiarising, in my view.
posted via 124.171.131.134 user mikefield.


message 42658 - 05/31/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: New S&A film (again & again)
On it goes . . . Today it's Melanie Phillips in a half-page piece in The Times, entitled "How dare the BBC mess with my favourite book". Usual stuff, but Ms Phillips is a hard-hitter:

"That is why renaming her [Titty] is a kind of sacrilege. It airbrushes her out and replaces her by someone else. Excising her name in a pointed sensitivity to any smutty overtone also corrupts the very innocence at the core of the story."

I wonder why Christine Langan or Nick Barton, or someone from the film producer's office, has not replied to this press onslaught? Is it because there is no such thing as bad publicity?
posted via 81.129.95.6 user Peter_H.


message 42657 - 05/29/16
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: New S & A Film (Again)
On the subject of the linkage(s) between the Altounyan children and the Swallows, see http://allthingsransome.net/inspirations/index.html. This page had a number of contributors, in particular Roger Wardale and Ted Alexander, in assessing the actual people who were inspirations for Ransome's characters. It's worth noting that Ransome's predilection towards assembling a location as a montage of bits of multiple places seems to be true for major characters as well.


posted via 47.208.56.168 user dthewlis.


message 42656 - 05/29/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: New S & A Film (Again)
"...they have to be of the right age, height and gender, and they need to be good actors."

It seems that the characters who play John and Susan in this new story, while of the right gender, are neither of the right age nor height. How good they will be as actors remains to be seen.

But unless their acting is truly bad, it needn't really matter. In the 1974 film, very occasionally, some of the children's acting is a bit stilted. These child actors were by no means professionals, but Whatham cleverly got past almost all of that by telling them about the scene and the sort of things he wanted them to say, then letting them say them in their own way.

I just do wish these film-people wouldn't fiddle....
posted via 124.171.131.134 user mikefield.


message 42655 - 05/29/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: New S & A Film (Again)
I agree that Barbara Altounyan goes too far in criticising the BBC for making the Swallows so English. After all, they have an English naval officer for a father and an Australian mother.

Yes. They are AR's stories, nobody else's, and although a lot of details are left obscure- for instance, what colour was their hair, and what was the actual year in which each adventure happened, that part of it is explicit and absolutely nailed down.
In the new film, from the material released so far, the only real issue of that kind would be the ages of the two elders.

But a tremendous amount will depend on the script. If that's well done, many of the details will become unimportant.
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42654 - 05/29/16
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: New S & A Film (Again)
Barbara Altounyan then sums up the Titty/Tatty dispute, but then she adds “In the latest BBC version all the characters are cast as blue-eyed, red-cheeked and blond. Is this true? Not a bit. The real-life children were dark-haired with Middle Eastern complexions. The Altounyan children were in fact Anglo-Syrians . . .”

The book is a work of fiction about two groups of children, the Walkers and the Blacketts. It is not a biographical book about Altounyans and Collingwoods or Smiths and Joneses.

The characters were inspired by the Altounyans and doubtless many others, some consciously and some sub-consciously. It is not about real people any more than Rowling wrote about the real Harry Potter.

posted via 109.152.90.102 user MartinH.


message 42653 - 05/29/16
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: New S&A Film- an older adaptation gives hope.
As pointed out in subsequent posts, there were indeed two productions under the title "S&A Forever", one of Coot Club and one of The Big Six. The links on this page http://allthingsransome.net/vault/index.html point to the IMDB entries for both episodes.
posted via 47.208.56.168 user dthewlis.
message 42652 - 05/29/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: New S & A Film (Again)
With regard to blond hair colour, it does look from AR's drawings that some of the children, at least, have dark hair - Susan for instance. However, Orla Hill, who is to play Susan, has blond hair. I don't mind that - it is difficult enough to cast child characters - they have to be of the right age, height and gender, and they need to be good actors. Orla Hill may simply have been the best for the part, but we can't really judge that until we see the film.
posted via 81.129.95.6 user Peter_H.
message 42651 - 05/29/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: New S & A Film (Again)
I agree that Barbara Altounyan goes too far in criticising the BBC for making the Swallows so English. After all, they have an English naval officer for a father and an Australian mother. And in his autobiography AR, perhaps unkindly, objected to the family's over-identification with the Swallows.
posted via 92.25.156.0 user Mike_Jones.
message 42650 - 05/29/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: New S & A Film (Again)
I agree that Barbara Altounyan goes too far in criticising the BBC for making the Swallows so English. After all, they have an English naval officer for a father and an Australian mother. And in his autobiography AR, perhaps unkindly, objected to the family's over-identification with the Swallows.
posted via 92.25.156.0 user Mike_Jones.
message 42649 - 05/29/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: New S & A Film (Again)
Thank you for that Peter, I was planning to use some quotes in a further post - you've use the ones I had in mind!

I agree, especially the change of ending, I ask again why?
posted via 95.146.63.80 user MTD.


message 42648 - 05/29/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: New S & A Film (Again)
The Sunday Times article is titled “Swallows and Airbrushes”. As Mike says, it’s behind the Murdoch paywall, so here are some extracts:

For older generations S&A isn’t just a children’s book, it is a religion. Its characters might as well be part of their own family . . . .Christine Langan, the BBC producer . .promised that the film . . .would remain faithful to the spirit of the book. She was being economical with the truth. My family are furious.”

Barbara Altounyan then sums up the Titty/Tatty dispute, but then she adds “In the latest BBC version all the characters are cast as blue-eyed, red-cheeked and blond. Is this true? Not a bit. The real-life children were dark-haired with Middle Eastern complexions. The Altounyan children were in fact Anglo-Syrians . . .”

(I personally don’t agree with Barbara on that last point – AR surely had a right to create his child characters as he wished, and it is clear from the books that the S, A & Ds are English – no mention is made in the books of an Asian ancestry, so I think the BBC has got that one right.)

But Barbara’s last point makes me rather angry, if it’s true. “We have just learnt that poor Titty has come in for yet another hammering . . .In Ransome’s book her role ends victoriously. In the film we are told that her sailing adventures come to a sticky end.”

When I hear of people messing around with Titty’s character, I reach for my revolver . . .

posted via 81.129.95.6 user Peter_H.


message 42647 - 05/29/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: New S & A Film (Again)
As the last thread for this subject was getting a bit long I thought I'd start it afresh.

In today's (29th May) London 'Sunday Times' Barbara Altounyan has a piece further taking the BBC to task over the changes made for the new film, she is clearly angry on behalf of the family and her Aunty Titty in particular.

She also implies there is an element of racism in some of the changes they have made.

Unfortunately due to the paywall I can't provide a link.
posted via 95.146.63.80 user MTD.


message 42646 - 05/28/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: New S&A Film- an older adaptation gives hope.
Both things are exactly as I remember too, Robert -- the film combined the two Broads books, and it had that title because it was the first of a series that never developed further.

I have it on VHS. My then 5yo daughter and I watched it together many times and it never palled.
posted via 124.171.131.134 user mikefield.


message 42645 - 05/28/16
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: New S&A Film- an older adaptation gives hope.
I just looked (on Youtube) at an earlier adaptation under the peculiar "Swallows and Amazons for ever" title, which was actually BS. I'd always been puzzled about why they (the Beeb) had used that title for programmes that didn't feature any of the SAs at all, although there's a connection via the Ds

My recollection is that it covered both CC and BS, though maybe you've only seen the BS part.

I seem to remember reading at the time that they planned, or half-planned half-hoped, to do all the books eventually (with perhaps the exception of PD and ML), and just started with the Broads books, but unfortunately no more of the project ever came to fruition.
posted via 2.31.115.1 user eclrh.


message 42644 - 05/28/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: New S&A Film- an older adaptation gives hope.
I suppose it's a tribute to the Swallows and Amazons brand that the BBC felt that they should use it to plug their serialisations of CC and TBS.

I have not seen CC for a long time, but I have seen TBS again quite recently, and was struck by how faithful it was to the characters and atmosphere of the book.

According to my records I have TBS on a DVD along with Casablanca, but all I can lay my hands on is The Big Sleep!
posted via 92.25.156.0 user Mike_Jones.


message 42643 - 05/28/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: New S&A Film- an older adaptation gives hope.
I just looked (on Youtube) at an earlier adaptation under the peculiar "Swallows and Amazons for ever" title, which was actually BS. I'd always been puzzled about why they (the Beeb) had used that title for programmes that didn't feature any of the SAs at all, although there's a connection via the Ds. They were given a bit of understandable stick for that, and it had slightly put me off seeing the series.
But seeing this episode, I was happily surprised by how thoroughly good it was. The story was adapted all right, but well done, and the atmosphere was beautifully recreated; not "softly", in fact the old eel babber gave them a first hand history lesson of extreme poverty, people shooting bitterns for food and eating rats to stave off hunger. But the essentially local life, with its slow patterns and "everybody knows everybody", was nicely conveyed. It wasn't quite AR, but it was close and it was delightful.
It was also interesting to me that if you hadn't read the books, it'd be quite hard to make out what was really happening.
I think the BBC are making these things because they'd like to, and it gives me some hope that it'll be the case this time round too.
An incidental pleasure; as the titles rolled, it was nice to see the names of old technical colleagues coming up, editors, sound men and cameramen, and Sophie Neville of course, familiar on line and none the worse for that.
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.
message 42642 - 05/26/16
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: New S&A Film
I suppose the film folks could point out that "Tatty" was at least the name of the other mouse in the story rather than completely random, and so might possibly have been the name Mavin adopted.

What really surprises me (others have remarked on this) is how comparatively grown up the two eldest Swallows are, based on the pictures Alan posted. I'd put both of them at mid-teens. T*tty and Roger are both oldish but not so remarkably so.

This might not matter much in keeping true to the spirit of the story -- but it would make the kind of easy movement between reality and fantasy in the Swallows' talking with one another much less realistic I would think. Leading me to suspect the film crew might have abandoned that in favor of the Russian Spy fantasy as more believable for characters that are almost what would be called Young Adults today; i.e. not just because it's a current theme but because the characters would seem ridiculous suddenly talking about being abandoned on a desert island, or whatever.
posted via 47.208.56.168 user dthewlis.


message 42641 - 05/26/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Oops! Where did that apostrophe in problems come from?
posted via 92.25.156.0 user Mike_Jones.
message 42640 - 05/25/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: New S&A Film
An interesting point Alan (and more explicit than your previous message.)

Does anyone know if it really was such an ultimatum? The Telegraph report on Barbara's view seem to show the family have not been consulted and what they have said ignored.
posted via 2.28.84.66 user MTD.


message 42639 - 05/25/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: New S&A Film
The Times originally ran the Titty/Tatty story in an opinion piece by the literary critic John Sutherland on 27 June last year, as the basis for a much broader piece on the problem's of adjusting children's classics to modern sensibilities.
posted via 92.25.156.0 user Mike_Jones.
message 42638 - 05/25/16
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Re: New S&A Film
I agree with Mike D, that fewer & fewer of us can remember the 1963 BBC series, including the name change to Kitty.
I did watch it on a 12 inch Pye brand 405 line TV. I had converted it using a Pye kit to receive ITV and reception of BBC was not brilliant.

I wonder if AR mischievously used the name Titty knowing the trouble it might cause. AR was well read in 18/19th Century literature and would be well aware of the name's other older connotations. Certainly at the time or writing SA the name was coming into common use as slang. I do not know if AR protested about the name change to Kitty in the 1963 series - perhaps he was too upset about other aspects.
Possibly the name was a tribute to Evgenia who, according to some reports, was well endowed up front.
Although AR used the Altounyans as an initial snapshot family, name (and sex) changing had already started with Taqui becoming John. (very modern & transgender!)
No doubt a few letters to the press will probably generate a few more curious people in the audience.
Anyway I wait to see if the film is close to the atmosphere of the books rather than being correct in every detail.
posted via 195.99.226.205 user OwenRoberts.


message 42637 - 05/25/16
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: New S&A Film
May I draw your attention to my message 42554 of a fortnight ago? That explanation has clearly not been given to Barbara. It seems to have been a straight decision between a name change or no filming last summer.
Unfortunately for Peter (and you all) I am no match for the Murdoch paywall. But I can offer you a couple of stills from the film - and a chance to vote.
posted via 86.155.231.160 user awhakim.
message 42636 - 05/25/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: New S&A Film
I suspect that they think that there will be lots of titters at Titty.
posted via 99.226.198.48 user Adam.
message 42635 - 05/25/16
From: Mike Jones , subject: Re: New S&A Film
Is the BBC afraid of giving offence, or just worried that the name will be greeted with laughter by today's children?
posted via 82.132.224.194 user Mike_Jones.
message 42634 - 05/25/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: New S&A Film
This topic just won't go away . . .

In The Times today, Carol Midgley tears into the BBC because it has changed 'Titty' to 'Tatty'. She writes: "People are such wimps these days that they will find offence in a mug of tea. . . . In 2016, is there anyone who could genuinely feel a scintilla of outrage at this harmless word [Titty]?"

Hear hear! Can't provide a link because Times material is behind a paywall (unless Alan Hakim can find a way through . . .)
posted via 81.129.95.6 user Peter_H.


message 42633 - 05/24/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: New S&A Film
I imagine Owen we are part of a dwindling group who actually remember and viewed the 1963 BBC adaptation.

My main memory is of the name change of Titty to Kitty, and my late father trying to explain to my innocent ten year old self why (whilst avoiding the real reason!)
posted via 2.28.84.66 user MTD.


message 42632 - 05/24/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: New S&A Film
At last! Someone who cannot easily be challenged is questioning this nonsense!
posted via 2.28.84.66 user MTD.
message 42631 - 05/24/16
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Interesting how opinions on the 1974 film have changed over the last 42 years.
Back in 1974 there were those who thought the film was moderately good but did not compare well with the 1963 BBC series in black & white.

However we do know that AR thought that the 1963 series was a "ghastly mess" with attempts to introduce more characters, ham acting and the BBC's desire to blow up the approach to the secret harbour to make filming easier.
However my faded memory of the 1963 series still compares favourably with the 1974 film in spite of AR's thoughts on the former.
AR died in 1968, otherwise it would have been interesting, had he survived, to learn of his thoughts on the 1974 film.
Not sure that I want to comment on the 2016 film until I have seen it.
posted via 195.99.226.205 user OwenRoberts.


message 42630 - 05/24/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Thank you for making it available. I only had a hard copy at my disposal.
posted via 92.25.156.0 user Mike_Jones.
message 42629 - 05/24/16
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: New S&A Film
It's here (quite a long way down).
posted via 109.158.193.137 user awhakim.
message 42628 - 05/24/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Strongly worded letter in today's Daily Telegraph from Barbara Altounyan, complaining bitterly about the change of her aunt's name to Tatty and questioning what BBC producer Christine Langan meant when she vowed that the new film would be faithful to the book.
posted via 92.25.156.0 user Mike_Jones.
message 42627 - 05/24/16
From: Jock, subject: Stone ginger beer bottles (was: NAR)
More about stone ginger beer bottles here:
posted via 83.10.36.175 user Jock.
message 42626 - 05/23/16
From: Dave, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Thanks, Peter. That is a very useful and clear perspective; and if we start by assuming the folks in charge simply wanted to make the SA film, somehow, then to some degree other elements fall in as unavoidable (however unfortunate) compromises to get the film done at all. Which has nothing to say about how good, bad, or frustrating the final result may be, or from whose perspective.
posted via 47.208.56.168 user dthewlis.
message 42625 - 05/23/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: New S&A Film
So why are they bothering with this version?

Probably because they just want to. Money is an unavoidable and important element in it all, but I reckon most films get started because somebody simply wants to make the film. Then reality kicks in.
But making a film (or a TV programme) is actually a lovely way to spend your life. At some point or other it can get hellish, but not necessarily. And compromise always crops up; you do something differently because it'll do, hardly anybody will notice (although you remember it for the rest of your life) and it costs enormously less to do it that way.
I think that may be the truth of it.
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42624 - 05/23/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: New S&A Film
I certainly agree that the 1974 film was a masterpiece, but I don’t agree that after 42 years no one should have another go at an S&A film. If I were a film director, and could get the funding, I’d love to have a go. I wouldn’t alter any of the plot unless I absolutely had to, but I would try to approach it in a different way from Claude Whatham, using camera angles for effect, different timing, modern but hopefully sympathetic scripting, different mood music – maybe more modern and spare. Hand-held camera footage, maybe some judicious CGI, particularly if I decided to film a version of ‘We Didn’t Mean . .’ (a book which is begging for dramatisation). Intrusions like Russian spies etc would just be irrelevant.

Of course, if I couldn't get the funding, I wouldn't do it. I'd watch the 1974 DVD.
posted via 81.129.95.6 user Peter_H.


message 42623 - 05/22/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: New S&A Film
"Whatham did an extraordinary job of doing a faithful AR version, stunningly accurate in terms of mood and feel. So there's always the DVD..."

Exactly. Why bother making a new film that has -- planned into it from the beginning -- features that were not in the story at all?

I remember telling my two girls when they were small that if ever anyone made a film of S&A I'd take them to see it. Then we found out that indeed there was just such a film, and that it was the book brought to life. That was forty-odd years ago, and in my view that film was, and remains, unsurpassable.

So why are they bothering with this version? I for one have no intention of seeing it. Nor will I be taking my grandchildren. But as Peter says, there's always the DVD of the original.
posted via 124.171.131.134 user mikefield.


message 42622 - 05/22/16
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: New S&A Film
It's all recorded. AR had the idea in January 1936 (letter to G Wren Howard Jan 16th) and wrote 26 pages straight away, breaking off briefly from PP. He sailed to Holland during May/June, but only started writing WD properly on November 8th, and the diary records progress into January. There were interruptions in 1937; first the Carnegie Medal, also The Far Distant Oxus and then getting Nancy Blackett ready for sea.
The full MS was sent to Cape on September 4th, though there were still illustrations to do. Publication was November 12th, 1937.
None of the two-year lead time needed by modern publishers.
posted via 86.174.171.22 user awhakim.
message 42621 - 05/22/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: New S&A Film
WDMTGS is published in 1937??

I'm not sure, but the writing can't have been wrapped up before 1936. In the text, Roger gets first sight of land as they return, by spotting the "radio towers at Bawdsey" which was the first experimental Chain Home radar station, which was built in '36, and which AR must have seen on his "check sail" to Flushing.
So an earliest possible publication date for WD of '37 would be likely.
I may be wrong, but that's the only firm date in the whole series of stories, isn't it? There's a problem that it doesn't fit well with the timings derived from the "internal" chronologies I've seen published which (am I remembering this right?) tend to set WD around 1933.
Never mind, it doesn't make the books any less superb, and a bit of nerdish fun doesn't hurt. And if we can't be nerds in TARS, where can we be?
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42620 - 05/22/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Sorry- coming to this a bit late but...

I simply do not buy this idea that people will only go to the cinema if there is a shoot-up, or a car chase or whatever in the film.

That's clearly true, but more people will go to see it, or at least the producers must feel that experience shows that they will, if it has those elements in it.
And when you're playing with substantial chunks of money, and trying to get other people on side to contribute, and they are looking at the same statistics of audience and profits as you are, then the importance of faithfulness to the original AR story will tend to fade.
Of course, Whatham did an extraordinary job of doing a faithful AR version, stunningly accurate in terms of mood and feel. So there's always the DVD...
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42619 - 05/18/16
From: JOhn Nichols, subject: Re: New S&A Film
WDMTGS is published in 1937??
posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.
message 42618 - 05/18/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Winnie running around - I thought for a moment you wanted to bring The House at Pooh Corner Into the mix.
posted via 92.25.145.0 user Mike_Jones.
message 42617 - 05/18/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: New S&A Film
An amended version? An uncensored version, surely.
posted via 92.25.145.0 user Mike_Jones.
message 42616 - 05/18/16
From: eclrh, subject: Re: New S&A Film
For a certain sort of film you could start with GN, focussing on an amended version of the bit where John and Nancy go off on their own.
posted via 2.31.115.1 user eclrh.
message 42615 - 05/17/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: New S&A Film
..."an excellent Disney movie"

In most cases isn't that a contradiction in terms? There are a few good Disney films, but only a few.

But we're straying far off AR matters here!
posted via 2.28.82.85 user MTD.


message 42614 - 05/17/16
From: John, subject: Re: NAR
Ed:

We should shoot a video like the Tullamore Dew ad - with stone bottles, gingerbeer and the SAD walking across the fells.

posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.
message 42613 - 05/17/16
From: John, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Cross WDMTGS and The Riddle of the Sands and it would be a mighty movie, make the father in Intelligence -- Nazi's looking at England -- Winnie running around --

Remember - any publicity is good publicity except for a few things

It is all about the economics - nothing more

+ the writers think they can rewrite everything - look at MC Beaton's response to the shows about the Scottish constable.


posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.


message 42612 - 05/17/16
From: John, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Marvel Comic - Antman -- etc...

Although I am of the opinion that the movie of WDMTGS would make an excellent Disney movie and make a good bit.


posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.


message 42611 - 05/17/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: New S&A Film
$943 million

Crumbs! That puts it all in perspective. It must take more than a "gun-toting Russian spy" to get that sort of box-office.
posted via 81.129.127.233 user Peter_H.


message 42610 - 05/17/16
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: New S&A Film
"I have just seen a trailer of a new film of Alice through the Looking Glass. Apart from a few characters, nothing in the trailer bore any resemblance to the book I know."

Perhaps they've signalled the difference from the book by giving the film a slightly different title.

No, I don't really believe that. They've changed the title for the benefit of those in the audience who didn't know that Through the Looking Glass features Alice.
posted via 2.31.115.1 user eclrh.


message 42609 - 05/17/16
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: NAR
SA CH8

On the hunks of bread and butter they put hunks of pemmican, and washed them down with deep draughts of Rio grog out of stone bottles. Then they ate the apples. All the time they kept a close watch on the promontory where the little white sail of the pirate ship had disappeared.

This is the only reference I found regarding "stone bottle".

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 74.128.28.7 user Kisered.


message 42608 - 05/17/16
From: John Nichols, subject: NAR
So I was standing in the shower this morning, thinking about the word NAR. Means when in Old Norse.

I was then thinking about the stone bottle ginger beer from the SA's. Was not the ginger beer in stone bottle then? Ed do you know?

We could invent an ad campaign.

NAR - not your grandmother's ginger beer.

NAR - keeping old men alive longer

NAR - from the stone age

NAR puts hairs on your sister chest
posted via 165.91.12.62 user Mcneacail.


message 42607 - 05/17/16
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: New S&A Film
I have introduced all of my daughters to SA and only one liked them.
posted via 165.91.12.62 user Mcneacail.
message 42606 - 05/17/16
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Captain America: Civil War held its world premiere in Los Angeles on April 12, 2016, and was released in the United States on May 6, 2016. The film became a critical and commercial success, grossing over $943 million worldwide.
posted via 165.91.12.62 user Mcneacail.
message 42605 - 05/17/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: New S&A Film
...the people who have seen the film go find the book. What happens then?

I leave them in the very capable hands of Ransome the author. Either they will fall in love with his writing, or there was no hope for them becoming a fan anyway (regardless of the film).


posted via 31.51.234.10 user Magnus.


message 42604 - 05/16/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Well, maybe. By the way, John - who or what is 'Captain America'? I'm just curious.
posted via 81.129.127.233 user Peter_H.
message 42603 - 05/16/16
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Better drowned than duffers etc.. applies equally to movies

John
posted via 165.91.12.62 user Mcneacail.


message 42602 - 05/16/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Even a bad S and A movie . . .

But why not make a good one?
posted via 81.129.127.233 user Peter_H.


message 42601 - 05/16/16
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Questions:

Do you want your children to see

Captain America or
S and A movie - even a not so stict one

Read
John Buchan as a teenager and explain the differences in people's attitude towards others in the pre WW2 era
or
Read Fifty shades of Grey

Even a bad S and A movie is better than 99% of the current alternatives

John
posted via 165.91.12.62 user Mcneacail.


message 42600 - 05/16/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Perhaps the most important thing is that the film is true to the characters of the children in the book, not least the balance of responsibility between boys and girls. Then at least those who go on to discover the books should not be disappointed.
posted via 92.25.154.84 user Mike_Jones.
message 42599 - 05/16/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: New S&A Film
perhaps the cinema audience ought to be advised to read PD

Well perhaps the film-makers should make a film of PD or ML in the first place, if they want some violence. And at least the violence, or 'off-stage' violence in ML, was put there by Ransome - that is my point. But I simply do not buy this idea that people will only go to the cinema if there is a shoot-up, or a car chase or whatever in the film.

However, there is a ray of hope here. The makers of the new SA film will have had to get a licence of the IP rights from the Ransome Estate. Whilst the AR Lit Execs have a duty to maximise Estate income, they will also be alert to safeguard AR's reputation and heritage. The film company will not have been given complete carte blanche. Perhaps Geraint might comment, if he is reading this?
posted via 81.129.127.233 user Peter_H.


message 42598 - 05/16/16
From: Duncan, subject: Re: New S&A Film
I remember when they first anounced they were making the films, there was a lot of talk about the real peril in the stories - the danger. It seems to me that just as sailing at night and camping on an island in a lake is - in real terms - more dangerous and exciting than looking for horcruxes being chased by a Dark Lord, it is also more dangerous and exciting than dodging unlikely Russian spies.

I will obviously give the film a go and I hope I can enjoy it in its own right, but I must say I'm disappointed. I was looking forward to it (and particularly the possibility of others of the books being made) but now I'm rather scared about what they could do to the stories...
posted via 212.219.3.8 user Duncan.


message 42597 - 05/16/16
From: andy clayton, subject: Re: New S&A Film
The first time I noticed film differing substantially from the book was when I went to see 'You only live twice'. Ian Flemming never wrote stories about hollow volcanoes being used as secret rocket bases. Its what Hollywood does, it creates fantasy. The books will still be there after the film has done the rounds.
posted via 146.199.114.229 user cousin_jack.
message 42596 - 05/16/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Well put Peter, for me, as an adult reader, what makes AR so good is that they are period pieces but timeless as well. I've used the expression before here - a snapshot of moments of 1930s Britain.

We know AR went to a great amount of work in re-writing and getting the books 'right', even after publication when Cape would allow, but to completely re-write one as it were for the purpose of a film is just a nonsense.
posted via 2.28.231.165 user MTD.


message 42595 - 05/15/16
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Re: New S&A Film
I suppose if people are worried about the use of guns and fights in a AR film, perhaps the cinema audience ought to be advised to read PD, ML or even GN before starting on S&A.
Even SD was ended by the S&A's being removed from the moor to avoid the possibility of them being shot.
posted via 195.99.226.205 user OwenRoberts.
message 42594 - 05/15/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: PS
I assumed a Nar was 15 miles, that being the length of the river in Norfolk - not one, alas, that forms part of the Broads.
posted via 92.25.154.84 user Mike_Jones.
message 42593 - 05/15/16
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Dialects - and their translation
A Masters is a hard road to hoe, you should be proud of her. Do you have a reference to the PDF so we can have a geek at it.

Nar is old Norse, not sure why a two seminars are a Nar -- when I go to seminars I do not go Nar -- I go to sleep.

John
posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.


message 42592 - 05/15/16
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: PS
Nar it ain't!
posted via 86.174.69.41 user Paul_Crisp.
message 42591 - 05/15/16
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Hold on everybody, things are getting far worse.
I have just seen a trailer of a new film of Alice through the Looking Glass. Apart from a few characters, nothing in the trailer bore any resemblance to the book I know. There were a great many violent fights, not to mention the Jabberwock in person.
I doubt the trailer lasted 3 minutes, but it seemed much longer.
posted via 141.0.14.144 user awhakim.
message 42590 - 05/15/16
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: PS
There is another unit waiting for definition - the Nar (which is, of course, the sum of 2 seminars).
posted via 141.0.14.144 user awhakim.
message 42589 - 05/15/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Magnus – I follow your logic OK. But – you stop where the people who have seen the film go find the book. What happens then? Instead of bang bang - bullets flying, they find a plot that is concerned with John resenting being called a liar, Susan vexed because the potatoes won’t cook, and Titty swotting up French irregular verbs as a holiday task. James Bond it is not. Ransome set his stories in reality – on what would probably concern children on holiday in the Lakes. You don’t expect to see an armed Russian spy on High Topps for heaven’s sake, but how alarming it was to see a strange man making paint marks. This is the charm of Ransome – it is delicate, and it can be ‘period’, but how precious it is! Can it survive the sickening diet of violence which is presented and expected on today’s media?
posted via 81.129.127.233 user Peter_H.
message 42588 - 05/15/16
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Dialects - and their translation
John - I should have followed your advice last year when reading my daughter's study into lava flows for her volcanology Masters. It took a long time to get my brain into shape to understand some of the mathematical modelling she used. To relax after that I think I read WDMTGTS and some Terry Pratchett.

Now were those 500lb bombs standard or high capacity?
posted via 109.150.86.97 user MartinH.


message 42587 - 05/15/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Parenting illustrated by telegrams
Another of those things that I have read so many times in AR but not realised the importance of such a simple piece of information.

I'm also reminded of an incident in my older teenage years (early 1970s) when a friend in London sent me a telegram to say they were unable to visit that day, my maternal grandparents, who I lived with, were appaled as they were only used to telegrams being used for bad news (their son had been killed in WWII) or celebrations such as wedding congratulations.
posted via 2.28.231.220 user MTD.


message 42586 - 05/14/16
From: John Nichols, subject: Lakeland cam
Space isn't remote at all. It's only an hour's drive away if your car could go straight upwards.

Fred Hoyle.

There is an interesting person with some problems in every group!!

-----------------------------------------------------------------

+ Peel Island and the SA on Lakeland cam today
posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.


message 42585 - 05/14/16
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Dialects - and their translation
Mike:

Agree entirely, my problem is that I have spent the last 4 months buried in 12 masters documents as their chair - my mind is fried with the scientific method and statistics --

and Fortran programming.

The best way to learn the Scientific method is to read all the AR books with Dick in them - then you are reader to read Fisher. If you survive Fisher then Constance Tipper and finally the bombing stats studies by the Female Professor whose name escapes me, but I pad the UK government ot scan her stuff -- brilliant. She worked out how many 500 lb bombs ot put into an area to destroy something -- got paid to do it as well.

John
posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.


message 42584 - 05/14/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Dialects - and their translation
And we certainly used 'hoick' the same way here in Australia too -- to lift straight up or out easiy, usually with a 'yank' or a 'jerk'.
posted via 124.171.131.134 user mikefield.
message 42583 - 05/14/16
From: Mike Field, subject: PS
And I should have added that, in exactly the same way, a 'sec' was an abbreviation of 'second', and was a short but unspecified period of time -- not one second explicitly, but a few seconds or minutes, depending on circumstances.

We also used 'half a sec' in the same way. ('Half a mo' was an equivalent Americanisation.)
posted via 124.171.131.134 user mikefield.


message 42582 - 05/14/16
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Parenting illustrated by telegrams
I spent many enjoyable hours playing in and one and around Lake Macquarie from about 8, I used to take my younger cousins out in boats, only wore life jackets when skiing and sailing - otherwise no.

My mother was no different o TD's, but they let us run in the bush and the lake.

I think the modern parent is a modern invention a product of the baby boomers who I consider the worst generation for changing the world into a unpleasant game of life mainly involving their self satisfaction

posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.


message 42581 - 05/14/16
From: Tom Napier, subject: Re: Dialects - and their translation
I found "hoick" in the Penguin English Dictionary. It is defined as "raise or rise abruptly, jerk up." There is no indication that it is a regional term. I was familiar with it in my childhood in Scotland but I wouldn't have known how to spell it.
posted via 108.16.166.49 user Didymus.
message 42580 - 05/14/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Parenting illustrated by telegrams
BETTER DROWNED THAN DUFFERS IF NOT DUFFERS WONT DROWN

We all know this telegram, and most of us have wondered about the style of parenting that lets kids go off into the wild for days at a time, versus modern paranoid parenting.

You may also have read about the 'rules' of writing a good adventure story about children; you have to get the parents out of the way first. Ransome, Blyton and other authors all had the same problem to solve, and relied on death, prison, far-off jobs and other tricks, when they didn't want the easy option of parents who appeared to let the kids go off camping a little too readily.

Only today did I remember there was one example of a less carefree parenting style, in Coot Club chapter XXIII:

TOM DUDGEON YACHT TEASEL BECCLES
ARE TWINS WITH YOU TELEPHONE IMMEDIATELY
MOTHER

It is the "immediately" that gives me the biggest hint. This was an adult who was properly worried the twins were half-drowned.

I wonder if Ransome was every accused of making the Walker and Blackett adults a little too easy-going? I wonder if Mrs Dudgeon and Mrs McGinty were deliberately portrayed as more 'normal' to redress the balance?
posted via 31.51.234.10 user Magnus.


message 42579 - 05/14/16
From: Tom Napier, subject: Re: Dialects - and their translation
Long after the days of S&A, the time interval "Shake of a lamb's tail" took on a precise definition. Scientists working on the Manhattan Project needed to specify how rapidly events were taking place during the explosion of an atomic bomb. Ten nanoseconds (a hundredth of a millionth of a second) became known as one shake. Once started, the explosion of a critical mass of uranium went to completion in about 80 shakes.

posted via 108.16.166.49 user Didymus.
message 42578 - 05/14/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: New S&A Film
The general public have seen a lot of films.
This is not the first book that has been made into a film.
It is not going to be the first book plot changed, to be made into a film.

I think most people will be unsurprised to hear that changes were made when writing the screenplay.

What matters most is that they are aware there is a book, and they could go find it.
posted via 31.51.234.10 user Magnus.


message 42577 - 05/14/16
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Dialects - and their translation
I gave an assignment to a class of 260 US students, the instructions included a note that spelling was judged in accordance with the first dictionary listed in the TAMU library catalog in a regular search of databases. It was the UK version of the OED and I took some mean pleasure in pointing this out when they asked me to look at drafts.

Amazing what a student will learn for a grade.


posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.


message 42576 - 05/14/16
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Dialects - and their translation
This is the problem with science and vernacular

Some twit, whether a gold fish or not, actually defines these things so a jiffy is actually defined as 1/100th of a second - I have no doubt as to AR's meaning - I was just being pedantic and a bit of a Roger. A moment is however from memory 40 seconds.

Of course when I tell my wife I will be a minute she translates to an hour.


posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.


message 42575 - 05/14/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Dialects - and their translation
'Jiff' here was an abbreviation of 'jiffy', a short but unspecified period of time -- a few seconds or minutes, depending on circumstances.
posted via 124.171.131.134 user mikefield.
message 42574 - 05/13/16
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Dialects - and their translation
I have always read "howk" as "hoick", a word which my father to use to mean pull.

I have looked up "howk" on the internet and found differing meanings, including to hit really hard and to dig out!
posted via 109.150.86.97 user MartinH.


message 42573 - 05/13/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Dialects - and their translation
I think Ed we are back to the difference between English English and American (USA) English, many of us here understand or know of these words but then we read words from USA writers that we have no idea about!

Prior to the Internet I would have said you need to invest in a copy of the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary (SOED), but now it is On-line and would easily answer your question about 'Duffer' etc.

posted via 2.28.231.220 user MTD.
message 42572 - 05/13/16
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Re: Dialects - and their translation
I always read, even at the age of 8 of howk as hoick (a sharp pull) - I now know it is technically a sharp vertical pull.
Jiff was always a moment.

Like Ed, pressing the send key, increases my perception of errors in the dyslexia aided text I have just sent.
posted via 195.99.226.205 user OwenRoberts.


message 42571 - 05/13/16
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Very funny
here tis
posted via 165.91.12.62 user Mcneacail.
message 42570 - 05/13/16
From: John Nichols, subject: Very funny
This is a very funny site - makes me think of Ed and Roger - not sure why
posted via 165.91.12.62 user Mcneacail.
message 42569 - 05/13/16
From: John Nichols, subject: Nice boat
She is very very good - reminds me of Nancy in her intensity

posted via 165.91.12.62 user Mcneacail.
message 42568 - 05/13/16
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Dialects - and their translation
A jiff is 1/100th of a second so one could do a Newtonian analysis of the stated CF attempt and I suspect it will take longer than 2 jiffs if we do not want high velocity

posted via 165.91.12.62 user Mcneacail.
message 42567 - 05/13/16
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Dialects - and their translation
Common word in Oz when I was growing up
posted via 165.91.12.62 user Mcneacail.
message 42566 - 05/13/16
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Dialects - and their translation
Excuse that typo - "jank" was intended to be "YANK" (or JERK).

(Why do I see these things just AFTER hitting "SEND" and not just before.."
posted via 74.128.28.7 user Kisered.


message 42565 - 05/13/16
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Dialects - and their translation
In Chapter 6 of "Swallowdale", as John and Nancy consider the job of raising the sunken SWALLOW...

"It'll be all right," said Nancy. "Captain Flint's coming today,
and he'll howk her up in two jiffs."

I presume that the meaning of "howk" as used here could be "jank."

"Dialect" comes to us again.

One of the problems in introducing these books to subsequent generations is getting by the words they do not understand. When trying to overcome their reluctance by reading it aloud to them, it suddenly falls on me to be able to answer their question as to "what does that mean?" For the most part, it was translated simply by considering the general jist of what is going on. My interpretation was hopefully close enough to being the proper translation so we could get on with the story, having some years ago struggled on my first reading to understand things like "what is a Duffer?" Some meanings had to wait until years later, when this forum came up with some answers such as "midden" - which I had no idea what THAT was. Jacky certainly gave us a few other words to try to translate, but somehow, it added to the delights of digging through these stories, being educated without having to realize it. It has been a learning experience, all these years, and I keep making discoveries that keep me coming back to those childhood friends of long ago as they take me with them, again and again.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA
posted via 74.128.28.7 user Kisered.


message 42564 - 05/13/16
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: New S&A Film
NO actually Mike, the converse - I would argue that AR dominated with women in place of the all male characters, even John is contrived, so our math has a place on this board.

CC is pure Buchan on a dose of ginger ale instead of steroids. None the less exciting.

John
posted via 165.91.12.62 user Mcneacail.


message 42563 - 05/13/16
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Hypothesis:

Buchan had no strong female characters.

If a character can take one of two states, let us call them A of B.

Let us assume all male characters are A and all female B.

Hannay is the first and main character is n = 1.

In the books starting with The Thirty Nine Steps, clearly by induction n=2 is a male being the dead man, and let us assume the milkman is n=3 and as tradition required it at the time - the milkman is a man -- we can conclude that all n+1 has to be men, but some n for n >> 1 has Mary Lamington as a strong character and female, I advance deliberately a women for the plot, therefore there is an n+ 1 that is not a man and the hypothesis once broken is false. You only need one break. Of course the fact that the sum of A is >> than the sum of B in Buchan is also obvious, if you want to advance the hypothesis that the sum of A is greater than the sum of A then I agree, that it is no the same as there are no strong female characters, in Buchan there are at least n=3 that are B.

QED and self evident


posted via 165.91.12.62 user Mcneacail.


message 42562 - 05/13/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Thank you Peter for flagging that up, the lady is quite right!

I can't imagine the audience the film makers want attract are going to have any interest in the books at all.
posted via 2.28.231.220 user MTD.


message 42561 - 05/13/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Mike - we're not alone! There is a letter published in today's Daily Telegraph from a lady in Cambridgeshire. She writes: "I was appalled to discover that people are not satisfied with the original innocence of the Arthur Ransome novels . . . we will eventually reach a point where people no longer know the original stories. They will believe that the new, darker, plot - designed to entice audiences - is true to the original." I think that last sentence points out the real danger with all this.
posted via 81.129.127.233 user Peter_H.
message 42560 - 05/12/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: New S&A Film
In linguistic terms, your hypothesis that my comments were related to the centrality of characters is disproven by your formulation. :) (Even were your hypothesis true, as a former engineer I'd be interested in seeing your proposed mathematical proof....)

But we're getting a bit far away from the S&A film, aren't we?
posted via 124.171.131.134 user mikefield.


message 42559 - 05/12/16
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: New S&A Film
In mathematical terms your hypothesis that Buchan had no strong women characters - central to the story is disproven by Mary Lamington.

posted via 165.91.12.62 user Mcneacail.
message 42558 - 05/11/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: New S&A Film
True. But we don't see very much of Hilda von Einem -- she's more of a presence rather than an active participant. Certainly Mary does have quite a bit of action in the books you mention. But I think you'd still have to say both played secondary rather than primary roles (albeit ones that are important to the plots). Perhaps that's open for debate.
posted via 124.171.131.134 user mikefield.
message 42557 - 05/11/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: New S&A Film
The chief "villain" in Greenmantle is a woman, and Lady Hannay is given plenty to do in Mr. Standfast and The Three Hostages.
posted via 92.25.154.84 user Mike_Jones.
message 42556 - 05/10/16
From: Mike Field, subject: PS
I should add to my last post that I've not seen the 2008 BBC film version (with Rupert Penry-Jones), which I understand follows Buchan's novel much more closely than the earlier films.

Also, I have just found a good short essay on the various film verions in 'The Quadrant', linked to.

posted via 124.171.131.134 user mikefield.
message 42555 - 05/10/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: New S&A Film
"Instead we are going to have the introduction of, wait for it: a "Russian spy" - Gosh, wow, no one has ever thought of that before, have they?"

Enid Blyton did that -- although her spies were German because the book I remember was written in 1940. It was 'The Children of Kidillin', that I was given when I was a kid, and in which were a couple of spies and (in my recollection) a submarine hidden in a sea-cave.

Spy stories are okay, and hers was at least an original work. But why does AR need to be either 'tarted up' or 'dumbed down' with spies for "today's young generation"?

My earlier remarks on bowdlerisation still apply.

- - -

As for the Hitchcock version of 'The Thirty Nine Steps', as Wiki puts it, it is "very loosely based on the 1915 adventure novel". The various versions get looser until they're unrecognisable.... I'd be sorry to see 'Swallows & Amazons' go that way.

I have no knowledge of Buchan's wishing he had used a female in a primary role in 'The Thirty Nine Steps', as Paul suggests. Indeed, he had introduced a woman (Julia Czechenyi) early in the story who could have taken a primary role but who he dropped altogether after the third chapter. So I suspect that story's a furphy. Indeed, I don't recall Buchan's writing any novel that had a woman in a primary role, although there were several that had important secondary roles -- like Janet Raden in 'John Macnab' or even (near the end of the story) Anna Haraldsen in 'The Island of Sheep'. And plenty more in supporting roles of various kinds, of course. He lived in a male-dominated time in a male-dominated world, and his stories reflect this.

posted via 124.171.131.134 user mikefield.


message 42554 - 05/10/16
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Having heard Nick Barton make the same pitch as turned up in the Telegraph, I am convinced he is trying to keep to the spirit of the book, while adjusting the plot for the modern audience.
The important news is that it is being released on Friday August 19th, and if you want the film to succeed, and gather new young enthusiasts for AR, go and see it on that weekend 19-21st. The film world judges success almost entirely by the first weekend's takings. Waiting till Monday is too late.
I was also told that changing Titty to Tatty was the key to financing the film. "Hollywood accounting" is a strange beast.
posted via 141.0.14.219 user awhakim.
message 42553 - 05/10/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Thanks Peter, I began to think I was out on a limb here!
posted via 2.28.231.220 user MTD.
message 42552 - 05/09/16
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Apparently, when Buchan saw Hitchcock's film of The 39 Steps, he liked it very much and wished he had put a woman as a main character....

Why not just wait until August, go and see the film, and then make up your minds? I know I shall.

posted via 86.144.170.239 user Paul_Crisp.


message 42551 - 05/09/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Some books are remade as films regularly: Pride and Prejudice, Jane Eyre and War and Peace come to mind. But with the bat will in the world SA is not in that league, so it is understandable that scriptwriters and directors should want to introduce new elements to the story.

Perhaps I will take my grandson to watch it....
posted via 92.25.145.48 user Mike_Jones.


message 42550 - 05/09/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Some books are remade as films regularly: Pride and Prejudice, Jane Eyre and War and Peace come to mind. But with the bat will in the world SA is not in that league, so it is understandable that scriptwriters and directors should want to introduce new elements to the story.

Perhaps I will take my grandson to watch it....
posted via 92.25.145.48 user Mike_Jones.


message 42549 - 05/09/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Titles can't be copyrighted

That's true, but you can't (without permission) make a film or write a novel and call it "Swallows and Amazons" - if you do, you could be liable in an action for "passing off".

As to film versions of AR books, phrases like "updated for today's young generation" don't cut much ice with me. They are more or less an admission that the British film industry does not have a director who is sufficiently sensitive, adept and innovative to be able to reinterpret AR's stories as they were written and to preserve the tensions already in AR's plots. Instead we are going to have the introduction of, wait for it: a "Russian spy" - Gosh, wow, no one has ever thought of that before, have they?
posted via 81.129.127.233 user Peter_H.


message 42548 - 05/09/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: New S&A Film
To which I want to ask him 'Why?'

1. There is already a film made from the book. Who would fund another film with the exact same plot? Who would go to watch another film with the same plot?

2. This film is not for the hard-core Ransome maniacs like us. It is for the general public in the year 2016.

Nick Barton could be in love with S&A as much as you, or he might have read it disinterestedly once. It would not make a difference to how he produced this film. He has no option but to make a profit, based on the current market. (It can still be a work of love.)

Harcore fans can, of course, say they'd rather there was no new film at all. To do so means rejecting a means of sharing the story with a new potential audience. Some will come to read the book, via the film. Many won't, but at least the story will be shared.

I probably won't go to see the film, just as I deliberately avoided the recent musical adaptation. I'm still glad the story will give enjoyment to a new audience.
posted via 81.156.112.147 user Magnus.


message 42547 - 05/08/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: New S&A Film
"Why piggyback a film on an established work if you are going to mess around with it so much?"

Because the title of the work is well-known to a few generations of avid readers, and titles can't be copyrighted. So it gives the film-makers a semi-captive audience for whatever stuff they want to write.

Most of us probably remember John Buchan's early thriller 'The Thirty Nine Steps'. It was made into a film on, I think, four separate occasions. Each version followed Buchan's story less closely till the last wasn't even a parody of the book -- just a bit of fanciful rubbish. But the title stayed the same, because the title still sells....

Much harder to write a new film with a new story and a new title and expect to pull a large well-paying audience.
posted via 124.171.131.134 user mikefield.


message 42546 - 05/08/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Why piggyback a film on an established work if you are going to mess around with it so much?

I obviously didn't explain myself clearly enough.

There will be a kick start from using the well known title, and a boost of unknown size, but presumably the producers feel it will be significant, from existing fans of AR's books. From the producers' point of view, pulling in new readers via the film wouldn't be an important factor.
And the environment has changed hugely since Whatham made his version. That was before children were exposed to computer games and CGI action films. They've since got used to explicit action, high stakes and violence.
Which, of course, LOTR has in spades, and with CGI and fine scenery, Jackson was able to lead the field in terms of violent action. It's there in the books- unlike in SA, but they're competing in the same market.
I don't want to say that the motives of the production are entirely commercial- I think it perfectly possible that they love the books and were happy to be involved in making the film for that reason.
But the potential payoff must be there to get the film made at all.
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42545 - 05/08/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Of course Peter, I understand and appreciate that. But if that is the purpose of the production why bother acquiring the rights to the book in the first place?

Why piggyback a film on an established work if you are going to mess around with it so much?

Can we assume from their actions that the rights were comparatively cheap? That is, cheaper than commissioning a new original script.

It may pull in an audience who are not acquainted with the original work, but if any of them then turn to the books they are going to be disappointed and probably put off reading any of them.

I do wonder how did Claude Whatham in the 1970s manage to raise the finance and stick very close to the original source. Yes, I appreciate that was 40-50 years ago but Peter Jackson managed it with the Lord of the Rings trilogy, again staying pretty much with the original works.

If the aim of the film is to make it the first of a franchise then playing around with the period and plot will create problems in adapting the other books.
posted via 2.28.231.220 user MTD.


message 42544 - 05/08/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: New S&A Film
To which I want to ask him 'Why?'

Very simply: they need to pull in a large enough contemporary audience to cover their costs and make some profit, and their estimation is that the hard core AR readership isn't enough to do that.
Of course they may be wrong, but as they are putting in the money, and making a film costs mind boggling amounts of money- nothing reaches the screen by accident and for instance, the children's socks and suitcases have to be 1930s style, sourced and paid for, and somebody paid to do that...
So they have to decide what will pull them in. Using SA as a base gives them a head start, but they need more. They're doing what they need to do to get it made at all.
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42543 - 05/08/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Tatty carries connotations of potato and poor quality, as in a load of old tat. In the latter respect, is this an unconscious reference to the film itself?

posted via 92.25.145.48 user Mike_Jones.
message 42542 - 05/07/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: New S&A Film
Indeed, Why?

Titty isn't Kitty this time, she's Tatty. John appears in long trousers and looks like he's 17 or 18, and Susan looks almost grown-up too.

Why is it that some people feel entitled to change another person's literary work to suit their own interests? (CF the arguments about bowdlerisation we've had here before.)
posted via 124.171.131.134 user mikefield.


message 42541 - 05/07/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: New S&A Film
On her Website Sophie Neville flags up an interview in The Daily Telegraph with producer of the new S&A film, in it he says:

Nick Barton, the film’s producer, said: “We’re aware that we needed to be truthful to the characters of the children, the period, the story itself, but at the same time present a film that could compete with big, modern day action adventure films.

To which I want to ask him 'Why?'

For me such an argument only show how he does not understand the original book.

BBC Films made the same mistake over their version of 'Brideshead Revisited', altering the plot to make a 'better' film and in doing so making a nonsense of the book.

posted via 95.146.189.126 user MTD.
message 42540 - 05/04/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: "The Lakes Express" in the 1930s
My recollection (I lived near Manchester) was that they needed to be specially cleaned rather than slowly turning white of their own accord.

Certainly. As a child, I didn't see the cleaning. And it took several goes. They'd be black, and after the war, with the huge fires and the
dust from the bombing, they were especially black. Then they were cleaned gradually, and they'd start to be white with rain streaks as fresh soot started to coat them again, then the Clean Air Act came in and they were cleaned again. The best way to see the effect is to look on Youtube at the first half of "The Ipcress File", a lot of which was filmed around the Albert Hall. The School of Mines features large as the exterior of the "Library" where the villain is studying, and it has the piebald look it had until the '60s.
The other example of the extreme tattiness of London at the time is the large abandoned Victorian house, used as an observation post, that Caine walks to in the early light- red sun, a superbly evocative shot- which nowadays will be gleaming and titivated, worth millions.
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.


message 42539 - 05/04/16
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: "The Lakes Express" in the 1930s
A special treat was to see how the Euston Arch was blackened with soot. All stone was- I remember that vividly from when I was a small boy. When burning coal in grates was banned (smokeless fuel only) I do remember buildings slowly turning white...

My recollection (I lived near Manchester) was that they needed to be specially cleaned rather than slowly turning white of their own accord.

posted via 2.31.187.191 user eclrh.


message 42538 - 05/04/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: "The Lakes Express" in the 1930s
Thanks Jock- that's a lovely film, in the category of "Night Mail" although not quite as wonderful. There are all kinds of gems, like the trackside train spotters and the pictures of the Lakes from above Windermere. A special treat was to see how the Euston Arch was blackened with soot. All stone was- I remember that vividly from when I was a small boy. When burning coal in grates was banned (smokeless fuel only) I do remember buildings slowly turning white...
Full of goodies. And showing how the manual signalling required iron discipline and was full of opportunities for failure. It made me think how much track capacity has been radically increased by automation and comms.
Smashing.
posted via 80.176.146.133 user PeterC.
message 42537 - 05/02/16
From: David Bamford , subject: Re: "The Lakes Express" in the 1930s
Thanks for that Jock ! That has explained a lot that I didn't know but wanted to about the signalling system.
posted via 101.160.17.83 user David.
message 42536 - 05/02/16
From: Jock, subject: "The Lakes Express" in the 1930s
My apologies if this wonderful film on YouTube has been linked to before.

A London Midland & Scottish Railway instructional film which shows the
progress of "The Lakes Express" from Euston to Windermere can be seen
by clicking here.
posted via 83.29.158.163 user Jock.


message 42535 - 05/02/16
From: Jock, subject: Re: JPG Files
TarBoard has its own image storage space for images that need to be referred to – or inbedded in – TarBoard messages.

To use, simply click the "TarBoard image upload facility" towards the top of the main TarBoard page.

The process is a little clunky and long-winded, but it works!
posted via 83.29.158.163 user Jock.


message 42534 - 05/02/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: JPG Files
John - if your e-mail address is one from years back (in the days of pay as you go) you may have some Webspace with those. I have some Freeserve accounts that are still active and each one has 8MB of Webspace, even though the company is now owned by EE.
posted via 95.146.189.126 user MTD.
message 42533 - 05/01/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: JPG Files
John, if they're not too big and you don't want them held for too long, I'm happy to host them for you on my site for a while and let you have the URLs to quote. But I'm running out of space and don't want the site any larger, so it could only be a 'limited-time' offer.

Alternatively, you might try a hosting site like Flickr -- I myself haven't used it, but I know some who do.

posted via 124.171.131.134 user mikefield.
message 42532 - 05/01/16
From: John, subject: JPG Files
I no longer have access to my web site, is there some place I can put some AR pictures so I can refer to them here.
posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.
message 42531 - 04/30/16
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: From Lakeland Cam - Wonderful
and it was Ben Gunn's cave before it was Peter Duck's.
posted via 74.128.28.7 user Kisered.
message 42530 - 04/30/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: From Lakeland Cam - Wonderful
And don't forget how Captain Flint was 'tipped the Black Spot' in the first book.
posted via 124.171.131.134 user mikefield.
message 42529 - 04/29/16
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: From Lakeland Cam - Wonderful
Another link:

In S&A John turns a tree into a lighthouse, while RLS came from a family of lighthouse builders. I think his father was disappointed