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message 44588 - 08/22/19
From: Dan Lind, subject: Re: S & A in 2019
Thanks, I suppose it is like Mr, Farland says in the BIG SIX, 'The value of evidence fluctuates with its context."
posted via 70.78.126.205 user captain.
message 44587 - 08/22/19
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: S & A in 2019
I don't think that the British knife laws are very bizarre. To carry any knife larger than a certain size blade (3"?), you must have a valid reason. So wandering down the High St. with a 6" blade in your belt may not be valid but on a camping trip it could be justified. Having a kitchen knife on a Saturday night in the pub is not allowed but having it in your kitchen is fine and you allowed to carry it home if you just bought it in your local shop.
posted via 99.240.130.92 user Adam.
message 44586 - 08/22/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: S & A in 2019
A 3 inch pocket knife is adequate for almost everything -- in Texas everyone has a pocket knife if you are a guy - a lot like those Leatherman -- but I prefer the old fashioned knife with a cute handle

It is the 12 year old in Texas with an AK47 that is the problem


posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.


message 44585 - 08/22/19
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: S & A in 2019
UK knife law allows you to carry non-locking pocket knives with a blade length up to 3 inches (7.62 cm) without any need for a valid reason. I would imagine the pocket knives carried in the books would meet this criterion. You are allowed to carry a knife which exceeds these guidelines in public, but there must be a good reason to carry it.

When sailing, and especially when instructing novices, I carry a knife with a larger, serrated blade with a rounded tip. If I need to cut free webbing or cordage in the event of an emergency I want a tool that will do the job quickly. While travelling to and from the sailing club my knife is put away in my sailing bag with the rest of my kit.

posted via 92.16.48.90 user MartinH.


message 44584 - 08/21/19
From: Dan Lind, subject: S & A in 2019
How would the S & A's adventures be possible with Britain's current laws about having/carrying knives? The laws sound bizarre to me, but I really only know what I read on BBC on line.
posted via 70.78.126.205 user captain.
message 44583 - 08/21/19
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Favourite Book
WH for many reasons, AR is writing about a proper frost and snow winter, which makes it my favourite season here in the UK. Then the introduction of the Ds, outsiders (as are all us readers) who are welcomed in to the existing world of the characters (remember some have their doubts about doing so because of their lack of obvious nautical skills.) Then many of the sub-plots have the Ds proving themselves (the skating scene is always a joy to read!) The scholarly Dick's heroism in rescuing the crag fast sheep, which even the 'saintly' John would have had second thoughts about doing!

Reading WH as an older adult the realising that Nancy sees qualities in both Ds that all the other S & As overlook, is some very perceptive writing by AR. The book also contains some of his finest writing, though many argue that this accolade goes to WDMTGTS, this is a book I only read once in childhood and only got to know as an adult but still can't see why some rate it so highly.

posted via 31.127.243.106 user MTD.


message 44582 - 08/19/19
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Holidays
Maybe I was lucky with my Easters while I was at boarding school in the later 1960s. My birthday is 21st March and it was usually a week or more before the end of term.

I found a table and between 1962 and 19271, the dates of Easter ranged from 26 March to 22 April so I never experienced a particularly early one.
posted via 99.240.142.74 user Adam.


message 44581 - 08/18/19
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Favourite Book
Dorothea is the elder: When they are Signalling to Mars "In matters like this, though she was the elder of the two, she always felt that Dick knew best" (WH2). Dorothea tells Dick to be careful when they are stopping the doctor, like Susan with Titty and Roger (WH8). As here she is Susanish sometimes: at the North Pole she suddenly decides that "We must leave the Pole at once" because they had not told the Dixons where they were going or that they could be late (WH28). Dick objects because they have signalled to the others; but not because they are safe in a shelter, and a wintry night in a blizzard is not the time to start the return trek! And they are probably wet through.
posted via 203.96.134.234 user hugo.
message 44580 - 08/18/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Favourite Book
I fail to understand why most people say WH is their favourite book?

I mean I like the D's - they are such interesting personalities and Dots treatment of Dick is classic

Which one is older - never worked it out

John
posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.


message 44579 - 08/18/19
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Holidays
Rather a late reply - I've been away.
Boarding schools did not necessarily send children home for exceptionally early or late Easters. I was definitely at school for 1943 (April 25th, the latest possible date), 1948 (March 28th) and 1951 (March 25th).
posted via 86.140.235.165 user awhakim.
message 44578 - 08/17/19
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Middle Names - Was Interesting Name - whoever named him had a sense of humour or hated Latin
I was my parents second child so born at home, living in the Suffolk countryside the midwife failed to arrive in time so a friend of my mother assisted with the birth.

My parents wanted to acknowledge her help when naming me. The lady's name was Eillen Hornbuckle, so not much scope there for a boys name. Her maiden name was Tristram so thats what I got! I hated through most of my childhood as I was endlessly teased for it at school!
posted via 31.127.243.106 user MTD.


message 44577 - 08/16/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Interesting Name - whoever named him had a sense of humour or hated Latin
Parents do weird things the children have to live with

I called my third daughter Catriona McLeod and she hates her middle name - lol I love it

John
posted via 165.91.13.49 user Mcneacail.


message 44576 - 08/16/19
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Interesting Name - whoever named him had a sense of humour or hated Latin
The Telegraph obituary, also behind a firewall, says his father and mother were on a dig in France of a site where Vercingetorix was defeated by Julius Caesar. She became unwell, but the doctor said she was not ill, but pregnant. Denis was said to have raced round the site, saying if it was a boy, he would be called Vercingetorix. "In the end, discretion prevailed, and Hugh was given Vercingetorix as his middle name."
posted via 86.140.235.250 user awhakim.
message 44575 - 08/10/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Interesting Name - whoever named him had a sense of humour or hated Latin
Denis Hugh Vercingetorix Brogan was born on March...

Vercingetorix (/ˌvɜːrsɪnˈdʒɛtərɪks/ VUR-sin-JET-ər-iks, /-sɪŋˈɡɛt-/ -⁠sing-GET-; Latin: [wɛrkɪŋˈɡɛtɔrɪks]; c. 82 BC – 46 BC) was a king and chieftain of the Arverni tribe; he united the Gauls in a revolt against Roman forces during the last phase of Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars.

Vercingetorix was the son of Celtillus the Avernian, leader of the Gallic tribes. Vercingetorix came to power after his formal designation as chieftain of the Arverni at the oppidum Gergovia in 52 BC. He immediately established an alliance with other Gallic tribes, took command and combined all forces, and led them in the Celts' most significant revolt against Roman power. He won the Battle of Gergovia against Julius Caesar in which several thousand Romans and allies died and Caesar's Roman legions withdrew.
posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.


message 44574 - 08/10/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Hugh Brogan - Bibulous dinner described
In the article on why Brogan wrote the book, it is noted that he did so after a bibulous dinner. This was a new word for me and so I thought it would be an idea to put up a sample, this sample comes from the FT about Wine Editors lunch interviews.

In short Australian speak : Brogan had some good tucker, was happy - read the bit about Ransome and was p_____d or to speak British - a tad upset. This is why I am not AR.


posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.


message 44573 - 08/10/19
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Hugh Brogan
Peter Willis has written a nice obituary in the Nancy Blackett Trust Newsletter.
posted via 61.69.135.133 user mikefield.
message 44572 - 08/10/19
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Hugh Brogan - Bibulous dinner described
John - very interesting, where did you find this?
posted via 91.110.170.219 user MTD.
message 44571 - 08/09/19
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Hugh Brogan - Bibulous dinner and The Times
I suppose that the 1974 film review of "Swallows and Amazons" that Hugh Brogan objected to was in "The Paper" i.e. "The Times"?

Mike Dennis said (August 8) that Brogan wrote a letter to Cape after a "somewhat bibulous" dinner at his Cambridge college when he read the review in the common room. Was that a normal Oxbridge dinner?
posted via 203.96.136.146 user hugo.


message 44570 - 08/09/19
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Hugh Brogan - Bibulous dinner described
Sorry John, you've lost me. What is this reference to a "bibulous dinner" about, and what's its relevance to AR?
posted via 61.69.135.133 user mikefield.
message 44569 - 08/09/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Hugh Brogan - Bibulous dinner described
With Simon Hopkinson's creamy chicken and mushroom pie with buttery cabbage, the stars of a succession of magnums were two completely glorious vintages of the cult Châteauneuf-du-Pape Château Rayas. The 1989 is particularly celebrated, along with the 1990, but the 1998 was looking even better at that west London dinner table. My predecessor as FT wine correspondent Edmund Penning-Rowsell always said that once you’ve decided to pull a cork, you should banish any thought of how much the wine costs. Thank goodness the friend who so kindly donated these magnums follows his advice.
posted via 165.91.13.49 user Mcneacail.
message 44568 - 08/09/19
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Hugh Brogan
Firstly my apologies for typing errors in my previoud posts, since my stroke earlier this year recovery is going well but using a kayboard is sometimes still tricky!

There is an excellent obituary of Hugh Brogan in the London Times today (9th August) but again is behind a paywall. Here is the opening paragraphs which give an insight in to how he came to write AR's biography unknown to me.

Like many of his generation, Hugh Brogan grew up with Swallows and Amazons, enjoying Arthur Ransome’s tales of John, Bridget, Titty, Roger and Susan, and their adventures in the Lake District. However, it was as a historian that he returned to Ransome because of his interest in the author’s role as an observer and chronicler of the Russian revolution, and as husband to Evgenia, Trotsky’s personal secretary.
His renewed interest was triggered one evening in 1974 when, after a somewhat bibulous dinner at his Cambridge college, Brogan retired to the senior common room. “I was reading the paper when I came across a review of the film of Swallows and Amazons in which Arthur Ransome was dismissed as an old Tory writing ridiculous and reactionary stories about children,” he told The Times in 1984 at the time of the author’s centenary. “My blood boiled . . . I sat down and wrote to Ransome’s publishers that this was absurd.”
The correspondence ended up with Evgenia, who was so impressed that anyone should feel sufficiently moved to defend her husband that she invited the young academic to become his biographer.

posted via 91.110.170.219 user MTD.


message 44567 - 08/08/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Holidays
In deepest darkest Australia -- something being queer was common saying for mum and she meant objects - I did not know the saying till Uni in the 70s

The n words are sad - but in reality variants on the Latin -- we make them bad with usage implications

I will get another EB book and see if it was just me being sensitive

I have two adopted Chinese daughters, the eldest one 14 once chastised the 12 year old when she commented on another race by saying - be quiet we have the white advantage -- and she does the name is everything in the end -- 'Catriona Nichols" is a name that does not bring racial overtones except Scottish and everybody hates the Scots -- lol joking .



posted via 165.91.13.49 user Mcneacail.


message 44566 - 08/08/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Hugh Brogan
Hugh Brogan - jolly good writer - sadly missed

WH is good, but darn it some times I just want to get lost in the humour of PM and occasionally scared to death in WDM


posted via 165.91.13.49 user Mcneacail.


message 44565 - 08/08/19
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Hugh Brogan
Thanks for the links, there have been annoucements and obituries in the local press (he lived in Wivenhoe, site of the University of Essex), the university's Website and the Dsily Telegraph (today, but behind their paywall.)
posted via 91.110.170.219 user MTD.
message 44564 - 08/08/19
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Hugh Brogan
Hugh Brogan died on 26 July 2019 according to his Wikipedia entry. And I agree with Mike about "Winter Holiday"!

posted via 203.96.140.138 user hugo.
message 44563 - 08/07/19
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Hugh Brogan
Hugh did us all a great service. I'm sorry to hear of his passing.
posted via 61.69.135.133 user mikefield.
message 44562 - 08/07/19
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Hugh Brogan
In today's (7th August) London Times there is a death notice for Hugh Brogan. As most of here know he wrote the bbiography of AR.

I have recounted here before that as a mature student at Essex Univeraity I metI him , found him to be most approachable (I just knocked on his office door one afternoon!) He signed my copy of the biography and we had a discussion about our favourite AR book, a choice we shared - WH.

I lost my signed copy of the biography in a messy divorce 20 years ago, when I acquired a new copy I e-mailed him asking if he would sign a slip of paper for me keep in the new copy (as the original book had been a present from my late mother I was keen to have his signature in the replacement copy), he replied to my request promptly and was willing to do so given the cirsumstances for which I was most grateful.
posted via 91.110.170.219 user MTD.


message 44561 - 08/06/19
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Holidays
Re holiday tasks, mother mentions holiday tasks they could do at Holly Howe in SD10 (hb p135) and Susan mentions holiday tasks to do in SD14 (hb p182). John says sailors have to know algebra and Titty reflects that one good point of being a savage that you did not have to learn French verbs. But when Roger sees the red caps of the approaching Amazons from the watchtower rock in SD16 (hb p212,213) Titty’s French verbs had lost their chance for the day. When they got back to the tents Susan was busy with geography and eggs, and John was busy with flies and an algebra. But no mention of holiday tasks in any other book!

Most of the books apart from WH and CC (& PD and GN) are set in the summer holidays and August is often mentioned. The summer holidays are mainly in August but start in late July.

In SD they are on the summit on August 11, on Day 15. So Day 1 is 28 July, but on the first day AR writes "August had come again" (hb p18) And on day 4 (after the shipwreck) the able-seaman is in command and when they go swimming "the water was cold even in August" (SD11, hb p142); but it is 31 July!

When Captain Flint moves the camp to Wild Cat Island, they first see a lantern on the lighthouse tree, up "thirty feet of smooth trunk" (SD36, hb p441,446). Captain Flint says "that tree takes some climbing". No wonder he was tired! Or did Mary’s woodman climb it?

posted via 203.96.130.66 user hugo.
message 44560 - 08/06/19
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Holidays
Interestingly, both the n-word and q-word have been reclaimed by the groups previously abused by their use as a mark of belonging.
posted via 99.240.142.74 user Adam.
message 44559 - 08/06/19
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Holidays
Yes, I remember that discussion here (and contributed to it!). To me Blyton was always so blatant about it (racism etc) whereas AR was reflecting the time he was writing in, my maternal grandmother always referred to anything dark brown coloured as 'nigger brown' (she was born in the 1890s) and I have an aunt in her late 90s who still uses the word 'queer' to mean 'odd' in the non-sexual sense. It is if the post WWII decades changes have passed her by!
posted via 91.110.170.219 user MTD.
message 44558 - 08/05/19
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Holidays
"... that was why she fell out of favour...."

Yes indeed ... fell out of favour so far here, in fact, that her books were removed from the public school system altogether, and even our public libraries stopped stocking them.

Fortunately that's changed now, and I was pleased to be able to buy my 6yo granddaughter a copy of one of the Secret Seven books a few weeks back for her to try out.

Other children's books like Joel Chandler Harris' 'Uncle Remus' stories and Helen Bannerman's "Little Black Sambo" and so on have also been considered at various times to be non-pc, and suffered accordingly.

(Dare I say it, but there were even some TarBoard contributors here a while back who wanted to bowdlerise AR because he used the word "nigger"....)
posted via 123.243.209.130 user mikefield.


message 44557 - 08/05/19
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Holidays
A bit disappointing to find a children's librarian with no knowledge of Enid Blyton or AR, I've occasionaly mentioned AR to adults and they have no idea who I'm talking about (even though middle-aged and well-read!)

As for you being disturbed by EB's sexism - that was why she fell out of favour (along with racism) in the 1960s and 70s. Both aspects have been well used by the recent parody versions!
posted via 91.110.170.219 user MTD.


message 44556 - 08/03/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Holidays
I have read SD many many times and I never saw the algebra and the geography -- it did not impinge on my memory of the book.

BBC 4 is talking about the Luddites, they were only trying to protect their income - think of banks during the recession.

I was talking to a children's librarian at my local library - she had no knowledge of Enid B or AR, we had a long conversation on these authors. Although I bought a Famous Five book for my 12 year old daughter and on reading it I was a little disturbed by the sexism in the book.


posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.


message 44555 - 08/03/19
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Holidays
On religion, the GA goes off to see the vicar as she has heard that he is doing some things differently. And Cook wants to get the Ds back in their bedrooms in the house again "like Christians" at the end of PM. Churches or church towers are mentioned several times as landmarks.

On school, Missee Lee tests them in ML and Roger is the only one with much Latin. Nancy knows French; but it is not a classical language! When they are all quarantined in WH, John is concerned about getting into the "fifteen" i.e. he plays rugby. In SW, Daisy Susan & Titty discuss School Certificate on the missionary boat. But I think SD is the only book with holiday tasks – for John (algebra), Susan (geography) and Titty (French verbs) - but not for Roger!

posted via 203.96.130.152 user hugo.


message 44554 - 07/30/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Holidays
In 325 CE, the Council of Nicaea established that Easter would be held on the first Sunday after the first Full Moon occurring on or after the vernal equinox. (*) From that point forward, the Easter date depended on the ecclesiastical approximation of March 21 for the vernal equinox.

It is nice to know we follow millennia old traditions -- even the British Parliament can not fix that

Another example of a proposed reform occurred in the United Kingdom, where the Easter Act 1928 was established to allow the Easter date to be fixed as the first Sunday after the second Saturday in April. However, this law was not implemented, although it remains on the UK Statute Law Database.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

AR stays away from almost everything grownup - church - I do not believe there is a reference to religion in the books, yet I would be surprised if GA is not a devout C of E and went to church on Sundays -- it was just the age and her class. He pokes gentle fun at the Police except for the Big Four

Albert Hawkins,[1]
Arthur Neil,[2]
Francis Carlin,[3] and
Frederick Wensley.[4]

And aside from French Verbs and Roger being tipped for "pranks" pretty well stays away from school.

he was very focussed.

John


posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.


message 44553 - 07/29/19
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Holidays
As the date for Easter is so variable, I would say that the Easter holidays would run for about four weeks from 19th March at the earliest to nearly the end of April at the latest. I picked 19th March as the earliest possible date for Easter is March 22nd. This year Easter was April 20th and it can occasionally be a few days later.

I imagine that the children would always be at home for the Easter weekend. Easter Day would fall some time in the holiday period. Probably most often in the middle, but on occasion at the very beginning or the very end.
posted via 99.240.142.74 user Adam.


message 44552 - 07/28/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Holidays
So the Queen being at Balmoral now matches this pattern and she to is somewhat governed by the school system -- AR lives forever.


posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.


message 44551 - 07/27/19
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Holidays
Current English school holidays mostly began last weekend.
If you are enquiring about holidays in the 1930s in the context of the books, we discussed this in detail some months ago.
Consensus was, for the schools the S&As were at:
Autumn - 3rd week September till mid-December
Winter - four weeks later (i.e. mid-January) till shortly before Easter
Summer - early May till mid-July.
Exceptionally early or late Easter could disrupt this pattern. For the years that concern us (1930-33) that could apply in 1930 (Apr 20) and 1932 (March 27). CC is the only book set in the Easter holidays.
posted via 86.140.235.177 user awhakim.
message 44550 - 07/27/19
From: Jon, subject: Re: Who owns Beckfoot?
It indicates nothing about Nancy and Peggy's Blackett grandparents. It does indicate that their Turner grandparents were not in residence (could have been overseas in military, mercantile, or diplomatic roles, rather than dead). We can infer that at the time of the SA series, the Blackett girls had no grandparents available to watch over them (PM), although by that time death is a more likely reason for their absence than employment.
posted via 68.81.220.75 user Jon.
message 44549 - 07/27/19
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Who owns Beckfoot?
I agree that Beckfoot could have been owned by Jim or possibly by Jim and Molly jointly; but probably not by Molly as a woman (whether she was older or younger than Jim)? Unless there were complications like lack of a valid will, or could it have been "entailed" to keep it in the family despite profligate heirs? So the GA’s authority over Jim & Molly was now through having brought them up rather than any legal authority.

Nancy’s comments on the 1901 note in the brass box on Kanchenjunga (that Jim and Molly would have had to escape from the Great-aunt) indicate that the Blackett grandparents were dead by then. With Nancy 12 or 13 in 1930 and Peggy a year or two younger, Bob Blackett could have died in the influenza epidemic of 1918-19 or even late in the Great War,

And would the Beckfoot estate have tenant farmers to provide an income? No mention in the books, but I have supposed that the Dixons, Jacksons, Swainsons and Tysons did not own their farms?

posted via 203.96.140.79 user hugo.


message 44548 - 07/25/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Holidays
When are the English school holidays

I wonder what great saying AR would have said of the new PM -

Ed: How is your vacation

John
posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.


message 44547 - 07/24/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Adventure
My youngest daughter had a big adventure the night before last. She stayed awake all night -- she kept waking me up saying I cannot sleep, finally I thought of Dick and said - turn it into an adventure and so she stayed awake all night watching Sofia the Princess.

We learnt a lot about being parents from the books.

PS -- I cannot make it past 2 am -- Ed how about you.

John
Tonight I have to make a tent in the living room - 40 degrees outside and snakes -- there is a 7 foot bastard in the wood opposite us make outside impossible

posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.


message 44546 - 07/24/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Who owns Beckfoot?
The problem with families is that the will may say one thing, but the family has to cope with the globe trotting brother and the stay at home sister. She is perfect for the man who wants to travel -- a wife would make it complicated, a sister is perfect, she does not complain - Ransome created the nine greatest ladies that have ever existed, and Cook of course. The GA is fantastic as a character, she probably would have been a Nancy in another age. Image GA as a millennial.

The family is like most families complicated and strangely wonderful.

posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.


message 44545 - 07/22/19
From: Alison, subject: Re: Who owns Beckfoot?
Yes, that confirms my thoughts. If Jim and Molly's parents were sensible and had made wills, they probably left the property to Jim, maybe in trust with the GA till his maturity, with any money left equally between the two. Maybe also with a condition that Molly could continue living there unless she married and moved away.
posted via 91.125.94.213 user Alison.
message 44544 - 07/22/19
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Who owns Beckfoot?
I am pretty sure that the GA doesn't own Beckfoot though she probably was brought up there. If she did own the house, she would probably think it necessary to live there full time and be "lady of the manor" rather than living in Harrogate.
It also seems clear that Bob Blackett married Molly but did not own Beckfoot which is a Turner family property. However, when they married the young and growing family may have lived there, or else Molly and the girls moved there after he died (or went off to war?). I suspect that Jim Turner is the owner having inherited the property from his parents but as a bachelor is happy to have his widowed sister and her family live there to keep the home alive and maybe pay him some rent or maintenance and decorating costs, especially when he is away prospecting.
posted via 99.240.142.74 user Adam.
message 44543 - 07/21/19
From: Alison, subject: Who owns Beckfoot?
Apologies if this has been asked before …. I haven’t posted here for a long time and am now re-reading the canon. So anyway, who owns Beckfoot? Jim Turner and Molly Blackett jointly? If their parents died young as I assume, would the house have been left in trust for them on their maturity – assuming they were orphaned young and the GA brought them up. Or does the GA own it, which might partly explain her assumption of authority over everyone living there? Or is that just that it was her childhood home and she automatically thinks of it as hers?
posted via 91.125.94.213 user Alison.
message 44542 - 07/08/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Murder Mystery
Murder Mystery Night at Horning Sailing Club -- Ed want to come with me

John
posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.


message 44541 - 06/28/19
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Maud is moored
Someone has cast her off now!
posted via 99.240.138.46 user Adam.
message 44540 - 06/28/19
From: Jock, subject: Re: Maud is moored
Thank you Mike. Seems to be abpout to cast off!
posted via 178.43.119.56 user Jock.
message 44539 - 06/27/19
From: Mike Field, subject: Maud is moored
The wherry Maud is moored just downstream of Acle Bridge at the moment -- right at the moment, as she's probably off again today -- and can be seen on the bottom right webcam at the link.

She's moored across the entrance to a dyke, and I suppose they're hoping that Tom will be a bit old now, and she a bit too big, to be cast off to allow that motorboat out....

posted via 194.193.41.13 user mikefield.
message 44538 - 06/24/19
From: Jock, subject: Norfolk wherry Maud (was: Lots of wooden boats on the Broads...)
And now for a piece of living history, the Norfolk wherry Maud courtesy of Tom Cunliffe.

Note, she is being worked by a rather larger crew than captain and mate that operated Sir Garnet.

posted via 178.43.149.220 user Jock.
message 44537 - 06/23/19
From: Jock, subject: Re: Lots of wooden boats on the Broads in the 50s
This really is a 'wonderful piece of history' and shows the infrastructure of the Broads (particularly around Yarmouth) much as Ransome would have seen it prior to WWII. My only slightly critical comment is that motor boats (albeit wooden ones!) dominate.

So to redress the balance, here is another Broads film, this time made in 1948 when petrol was in short supply, with lots of sailing boats and some would-be Dick and Dorotheas learning to sail.

posted via 178.43.193.43 user Jock.
message 44536 - 06/19/19
From: Mike Field, subject: Lots of wooden boats on the Broads in the 50s
A wonderful record of a 1950's Norfolk Broads holiday -- "Produced by G. L. Ward - Herefordshire, a snapshot of life on a 2 week Norfolk Broads Holiday in the 1950's aboard Shining Light From the Herbert Woods Boatyard at Potter Heigham"

A wonderful piece of history -- and with wooden boats galore. Wroxham, Horning, Potter, Yarmouth Lowestoft, the New Cut... Two hundred and twenty miles in a Margoletta in two weeks. This family of four greatly enjoyed doing it, and I greatly enjoyed watching it.

posted via 194.193.41.13 user mikefield.
message 44535 - 06/17/19
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Boarding School
I spent time in the Old Malthouse between 1963-67.
posted via 99.240.138.46 user Adam.
message 44534 - 06/13/19
From: Jock, subject: Re: Boarding School
The Durnford pupils were transferred to The Old Malthouse School which was also in the village of Langton Matravers. The Old Malthouse, like Durnford, was a boys preparatory school (pupils aged 8 to 13) though before it closed in 2007 it had become fully co-educational.
posted via 178.43.148.231 user Jock.
message 44533 - 06/12/19
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Boarding School
My uncle, son of an Indian Army doctor, born in 1930 was sent to Durnford. It was years after the Fleming brothers were there and he was there when it closed was requisitioned for radar research in 1939. He and the boys were transferred to another school nearby. He has never told me about Durnford, but it was notoriously a tough school. However, they did teach him to spell cough correctly.
posted via 99.240.138.46 user Adam.
message 44532 - 06/11/19
From: Jock, subject: Re: Boarding School
There a nice description of life at a English boarding school in a letter written by the author Ian Fleming when he was 7, My coff has grown to a whoping coff now. Don't tell Mr Pellatt (the headmaster) cause just this morning he said that nun of us had coffs. I am afraid that I do not like school very much.

There is more on Wikipedia (follow the link below).

posted via 178.43.194.23 user Jock.
message 44531 - 06/11/19
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: Boarding School
When my engineer father was sent on overseas postings, his pay allowed for children left in the UK at boarding school (including 1-2 flights a year for hols with my parents). Before that happened I was at the local state school. I'd guess that the well-organised Navy had a similar arrangement.
My boarding school (1960s/70s) had a mixture of local pupils, ex-pats like me, foreign pupils, and a few from broken homes etc. In the 1930s there would probably have been more from remote areas of the UK, as with the Blacketts, while the Walkers came into a version of the ex-pat category. We were always the worst-dressed! and the ones who sometimes had to stay at school during half-term. But with Mrs. Walker perhaps with ??a London flat, the Walkers will have had exceats.

posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44530 - 06/11/19
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Boarding School
As Jock says, fees have been increasing far quicker than inflation, In 1990, the average school fee was only £7000/year and were relatively cheaper fifty years earlier.

Additionally, some employers of overseas and military parents would receive a contribution towards the costs of their children's education as part of their employment compensation.

Also many schools allowed fees to be paid in advance of entry to obtain a discount on the total, so grandparents etc. could support struggling parents of they had the money.

Finally, as supposedly charitable organization there were scholarships and bursaries available for "suitable" families with limited means, such as the clergy or children of those killed in the First World War etc.
posted via 99.240.138.46 user Adam.


message 44529 - 06/10/19
From: Jock, subject: Re: Boarding School
Boarding schools in the UK have always been expensive, but in the 1920s-1930s they were relatively less expensive than they are today. Prior to WWII, many of the variable costs: building maintenance, staff (both academic and support staff), sports equipment (rowing boats and rugby balls) renewal, and many others, were a scale of magnitude lower than they are today. Boarding schools were within the reach of slightly better off, ambitious, middle class parents.

Post WWII, labour costs increased rapidly, making labour intensive activities such as running boarding schools, or maintaining steam locomotives, much less affordable and many boarding schools closed.

Recently, UK boarding schools have started to attract the global super rich and fees have rocketed.

posted via 178.43.110.57 user Jock.
message 44528 - 06/10/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Boarding School
I was looking at a boarding school cost in England about 21000 per year per child - 4 children that is 84,000 pounds -- only 10% of UK earn that much at all.

How did they afford it

John
posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.


message 44527 - 06/10/19
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Comics
They certainly could have, in the sense that there were comics around. But as late as the 1950s there was some snobbery about them. At my prep. school we were only allowed the Eagle (edited by a clergyman), but an exception had to be made when the son of the creator of Captaon Condor in The Lion came to the school.
posted via 88.110.91.31 user Mike_Jones.
message 44526 - 06/10/19
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Morning
And while a motor boat will get you moving quickly across the water, it is accompanied by a loud and annoying noise, not the usually relatively quiet sounds of sailing.
posted via 99.240.138.46 user Adam.
message 44525 - 06/09/19
From: Jock, subject: Re: Morning
I was 12 when I learned to sail on the Walton-on-the-Naze boating lake. I was shown how to luff up into the wind by a 10-year boy who helped out with the boats. Otherwise my only tutors had been Knight and Ransome.

Tiny gunter-rigged dinghys, water quite deep at the far end by the old tide mill, strong squalls coming from the North Sea, no lifejackets!

My school friend (also John) chickened out and spent his hour-long sessions in a rowing boat!

My mother seemed to think that I knew what I was doing. Those were the days!
posted via 178.43.122.206 user Jock.


message 44524 - 06/09/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Morning
Oh to be 12 and a lake and a boat and no mother -- God in heaven does exist. == leave life jackets behind if you cannot swim you drown, never leave the boat

posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.
message 44523 - 06/09/19
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Morning
What a delightful thought !!

I remember well those days in the early 60's, sailing so grandly in my catamaran, on a Reach with one hull out of the water, a delightful balancing act, not once capsizing. Then close hauled, with the wind in my face, riding the waters rushing by, testing the main sheet settings to try to get the best out of the wind, watching the patterns on the water to be ready for a sudden gust to suddenly require proper adjustments. The thrill of hearing, or rather, Feeling the rushing waters as I pass by, riding the wind. As "John" would say, "sailing is the thing." Besides, rowing seems like Work. Those memories are vivid, as of yesterday, not to be easily forgotten. Thanks for the Memories.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 44522 - 06/08/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Morning
Ed:

it is sunny outside how about we take Swallow for a sail --
John
posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.


message 44521 - 06/07/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Swan Inn
I spent 3 wonderful quiet days on the Broads at the Swan Inn, - 2 years ago -- anyway I sat in the quiet bar and just read for a few days -- they kept asking me if I was ok -- stupid question -- no guesses as to what I read.

Very beautiful - but people died in the rain in the area that week - about 2 years ago


posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.


message 44520 - 06/06/19
From: Woll, subject: Re: New Broads Webcam
Yes, Martham Boats certainly looked thriving when I went last year - I would recommend all TarBoarders try it out!
posted via 81.174.149.186 user Woll.
message 44519 - 06/06/19
From: Jock, subject: Re: New Broads Webcam
Last time I sailed past the Martham Yard it looked a little forlorn. So I was really pleased to see so many traditional yachts, and the yard thriving. I guess it provides a little competition for that famous boatyard in Ludham!
posted via 178.43.147.250 user Jock.
message 44518 - 06/05/19
From: Jock, subject: Re: New Broads Webcam
My dad took a lot of cine film while there in the same style with animated titles and all! I must look them out and upload them sometime.

Oh yes, please do!
posted via 178.43.189.109 user Jock.


message 44517 - 06/04/19
From: Woll, subject: Re: New Broads Webcam
No need to be so pessimistic!
Whilst most of the boats are modern, GRP stuff, if you want wooden-hulled boats, then just use this webcam only a little way up-river.
Martham Boats webcam: https://www.horning-sailing.club/webcam.php?camera=martham

The Martham yard is normally packed with wooden-hulled boats, so I assume most of them are out at the moment. As I write this, I think someone is just taking their stuff on board - lucky them!

When I last went, out-of-season, The Broads were pretty much as I remembered from the 70s. Quite quiet, and saw some lovely wooden-hulled cruisers and a fair few yachts. The are north of Potter Heigham is not accessible by many of the modern boats, so is much quieter.


There are some other webcams on this page:
https://www.horning-sailing.club/webcams.php

posted via 81.174.149.186 user Woll.
message 44516 - 06/04/19
From: Peter Wagner, subject: Re: New Broads Webcam
Wonderful film and filming quality. Just how I remembered it when we first went sailing there in the early 60's, right down to the navy blue life jackets! My dad took a lot of cine film while there in the same style with animated titles and all! I must look them out and upload them sometime.

posted via 94.250.228.202 user PeterW.
message 44514 - 06/03/19
From: Jock, subject: Re: New Broads Webcam
Oh dear, plastic boats everywhere and not a wooden-hulled boat in sight. I find it difficult to adjust to the notion that Broads boats no longer look like this:
posted via 178.43.124.51 user Jock.
message 44512 - 06/03/19
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: New Broads Webcam
Well spotted, Peter. Thanks.
posted via 61.69.151.10 user mikefield.
message 44509 - 06/03/19
From: Peter Wagner, subject: New Broads Webcam
Just discovered this interesting webcam on the top of the Herbert Woods Tower at Potter Heigham. It can be seen at the link below. It is the 3rd camera down marked "Norfolk Broads Guided Tour". Also, at the bottom of the page are some interesting video albeit taken on a motor boat!
posted via 94.250.228.202 user PeterW.
message 44505 - 06/01/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Ransome's Broads
If you stand on top of Coniston and look outwards you could be in the 17th century -
posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.
message 44504 - 06/01/19
From: Jock, subject: Re: Ransome's Broads
AR's yesterdays were rather different to yours and mine.
posted via 178.43.209.55 user Jock.
message 44503 - 06/01/19
From: Jon, subject: Re: Ransome's Broads
Yes,in SA, while dressing for the night raid on the Amazons. Susan had told him to put on two of everything.
posted via 195.99.23.207 user Jon.
message 44502 - 05/31/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Comics
Would john and roger have read comics?
posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.
message 44501 - 05/31/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Ransome's Broads
The past is a differet country, they do things differently there.

Yesterday is the past.
posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.


message 44500 - 05/31/19
From: Jock, subject: Re: Ransome's Broads
I hate to admit it, but I used to wear some of my school uniform, though not my cap, on holiday.

The past is a differet country, they do things differently there.
        L.P. Hartley

posted via 178.43.209.55 user Jock.


message 44499 - 05/31/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Beckfoot water supply (was: Dear Ed)
The first automatic, storage tank-type gas water heater was invented around 1889 by Ruud after he immigrated to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania (US). The Ruud Manufacturing Company, still in existence today, made many advancements in tank-type and tankless water heater design and operation.

If they had money - I would guess something like this?

posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.
message 44498 - 05/31/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Ransome's Broads
1. Notice the shorts on the boy
2. Notice the tie on the boy holding the life ring

That is not a proper holiday -- Ed :: did Roger once ask about wearing two ties or is that an old memory.

John
posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.


message 44497 - 05/31/19
From: Jock, subject: Ransome's Broads
Googling around while drafting my reply to Magnus Smith's post (see below) I came across this rather nice clip on YouTube showing the Broads as AR must have known them.

The whole film can be bought on DVD.
posted via 178.43.209.55 user Jock.


message 44496 - 05/31/19
From: Jock, subject: Re: Trains
Hi John,
It was good to meet up with you in another place on the WWW. These days, I don't get to post very much on TarBoard or anywhere. I did think quite hard about my reply to your post here, but in spite of Ransome's family connections with an Ipswich engineering company, I couldn't think of a suitable connection between AR and very large USA steam locos.

posted via 178.43.209.55 user Jock.
message 44495 - 05/31/19
From: Jock, subject: Re: Recreating moments from the books - Swallowdale
During my schooldays, I dragged my unwitting parents on a sailing holiday on the Norfolk Broads. We hired an unpowered 3-berth yacht and a small fibre glass dinghy with a Seagull outboard which we used for shunting. (I'm sure there is a proper nautical term for such manoeuvres, 'tug-boating' perhaps?)

Towards the end of our voyaging we reached Wroxham. This had been a bit of a struggle because of the trees upstream of Horning. I was determined to reach Coltishall, the head of navigation, so after supper I set off in the dinghy.

All proceeded to plan and I reached the site of the burnt-out Coltishall Mill, but on my return the Seagull started to play up, and I had to restart it several times, and nurse it carefully at low revs to keep it going. It grew darker and darker and eventually it grew pitch black. There was no moon. Steering by the stars is all very well, but when there are lots of trees and the river does lots of "U" bends, it's not always possible to see the stars! It wasn't quite an action replay of John sailing in the dark, but close enough for me.

I did get back to Wroxham, but the rest of the crew were close to mutiny. The following day, it transpired that there was nothing wrong with the Seagull, but my father, not realising that two-strokes need a petrol/oil mixture, had filled the fuel tank with petrol instead.
posted via 178.43.209.55 user Jock.


message 44494 - 05/31/19
From: Jock, subject: Beckfoot water supply (was: Dear Ed)
...did we ever get to the bottom of the water supply at beckfoot -- must have come from stream or pump in well?

The Beckfoot cold water system is easy. There was once a well, then a dowser came, a stream was tapped and the well replaced with plumbing. This much Ransome shares with us. Others go on and postulate ram pumps. I like to think of a small dam and a pipe running down the side of a larger stream.

Some narrow gauge railway enthusiasts will recogise the that there are similar arrangements at Dolgoch, but to say more would be to stray off AR.

Where I've never been able to get things right is the hot water system. A cast iron affair in the kitchen, and lots of pipes and tanks, or just a washbasin in the bathroom, a huge kettle and jugs carried to the bathroom? ISTR that the relevant text in PM can be read both ways.


posted via 178.43.209.55 user Jock.


message 44493 - 05/30/19
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Recreating moments from the books - Swallowdale
"I could now experience the same feelings that Titty and Roger did, when lost in the fog"

... and Winnie-The-Pooh and Piglet before them, when following woozles...
:-)
posted via 61.69.151.10 user mikefield.


message 44492 - 05/30/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Dear Ed
I remember your move, but I still think about your stories of Florida and they make me smile -- thanks a lot

John
posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.


message 44491 - 05/30/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Dear Ed
But did we ever get to the bottom of the water supply at beckfoot -- must have come from stream or pump in well?

I wonder what system AR used at his place

Jojn

posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.


message 44490 - 05/30/19
From: Kisered, subject: Re: Dear Ed
The TARBOARD has been a bit slow these past few months. Maybe we are all getting old. Last month I was in a hospital there for a while, so out of touch with the Forum. But I see a recent topic mentions things that we have learned from Ransome and his stories. I certainly agree and feel grateful for the education his works provided for me. Many of us Ransome Fans have claimed that his stories inspired the purchase of a sail boad, and without reading any further "how to" anywhere else. rigged it, and sailed it, knowing the details of the relative position of the pennant to that of the sail, of what a "Reach" or "run" are, as well as the skill of "tacking" with the proper use of the centerboard (or pair of "dagger boards" as my boat was a twin hulled catamaran). The compass became a meaningful tool. The Boy Scouts days were meaningful because of Ransome's teachings, as i knew how to start a campfire with the "wigwam" to get it started, the use of rocks to form a "fireplace" that could support my cooking pot. The Scouts took up Morse Code, and I became the one to TEACH thm, having already learned it during WInter Holiday. When camping out, I knew to be sure the groundsheet remained inside the tent, whereas my older friend always wanting to be the boss wound up sleeping in a puddle because his sheet extended out under the edge of the tent, and brought in the rain. I was rather proud of that "gotcha". Never did try "guddling" for fish, but at this age, having lain down on the bank presents the problem of getting back up again, so I guess I just missed out on that one. In this modern age of cell phone and "texting" I am delighted to use my flashlight and say "good night" to my granddaughter whose bedroom window happens to be facing my house. So at least, some "Ransome skills" have been passed on to later generations. In college, right after the Korean War, tapping on the radiator was communications to every room in that building, banging with the butt end of a pocket knife, using one bang for dot, and two quick bangs close together for dash, with the time of the "dot" being the same as the time of the "Dash", unlike what would be used if flashing a flashlight. No cell phones back then of course. To me it is interesting to note that as educational reading his stories were, at the time I did not realize that I was "learning", but just naturally assimilating the info he provided. It made the "learning" easy and natural. Those children were my childhood friends. I grew up with them. I knew them. I felt I was with them on their adventures. They remained forever young, and as I go back and reread them today, i am made young again. That is the Magic he gave me, and to many others.

By the way, I moved away from Florida in 2006, now living next door to my daughter in Kentucky. Not alligator territory any more, but horses.

Ed Kiser [ kisered@aol.com ]

posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 44489 - 05/30/19
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Recreating moments from the books - Swallowdale
Ha! I went to Wild Cat in Rob Boden's Canadian canoe in 2009 -- after visiting the Dog's Home with him (pre-repairs. And many thanks once again, Rob.) We weren't bothered by seals or their boats either, and I managed to get some native-unsullied photos of the Harbour.

[ Image ]

posted via 61.69.151.10 user mikefield.


message 44488 - 05/30/19
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Recreating moments from the books - Swallowdale
John, I felt so sad reading your story. It raised too many similar memories for me. I do hope you are able to be pleased you did get onto the island.

I think any expedition beyond the trivial should be undertaken by believers only. Leave the heathens in bed if necessary.

If I ever manage to get back to the Lake District, I will be reserving half the budget just to give to my wife, with instructions to enjoy herself at the shops and let me take as long as I like to walk in the rain.
posted via 81.129.151.135 user Magnus.


message 44487 - 05/29/19
From: Outlaw of the Broads, subject: Latest Children's mag
Whoever wrote the latest children's magazine for TARS did a bloody wonderful job - well done --

Of course none of my 4 daughters would ever read SA, only one landed wet on Wildcat island and she climbed Old Man -- I told her that we would eat a bit of chocolate at the quarter points in the climb - if she complained in that quarter I would eat her bit for that quarter and vice versa - she complained - I ate hers and she never forgave me

John
posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.


message 44486 - 05/29/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Dear Ed
Ed:

I am so sorry it has been a long time since I was on the site, although I think of you and Florida and alligators all of the time.

Can we go back 20 years and talk about an honest subject plumbing

Warm regards your "old" friend John
posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.


message 44485 - 05/29/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Recreating moments from the books - Swallowdale
1. We borrowed Rob Boden's Mirror Dinghy in about May 2004 or 2005 -- and family sailed off to WildCat Island from Holly Howe, about 300 metres from the Island I capsized when a steamer took the brisk breeze.
2 Wife was angry - She never forgave me and raised it in our divorce
3. I righted boat retrieved family - cold as hell and calmly announced that I had waited 35 years to go to island and I was going to island, of course boy scouts in plastic canoes ruined what was otherwise a wet cold and thoroughly enjoyable miserable day out
posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.
message 44484 - 05/29/19
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Recreating moments from the books - Swallowdale
Not inadvertently but memories of Ransome saved a long weekend camping trip. A small group of us had driven up to a campground some 270 km north of Toronto. When we started setting up our tents, we found that my friend had forgotten to put his tent poles into the car!

Luckily the site had some conveniently located trees and
we had a good length of light rope from a sailing boat we had towed north. Remembering the tents mother made for the Swallows in S&A, I worked out how to rig the tent between two trees and so we were kept dry during the overnight showers

posted via 99.240.138.46 user Adam.


message 44483 - 05/25/19
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Recreating moments from the books - Swallowdale
I know many of us enjoy doing the things mentioned in the books: sailing and fishing, or maybe a more detailed specific thing like making splatchers or eating bunloaf.

But there are some things you simply cannot arrange to do. Drift to Holland accidentally, and so on! I'd never thought about it before, until one happened to me by accident.

Cycling round the Army ranges near my house, visiting a corner that I'd been to only oncve before (memorably falling off my bike and wetting an ankle in a stream) I found myself approaching a slope which lead downwards to a... wait a minute! I was here five minutes ago! That's the same plank bridge across the same stream!

I'd been making up the route as I went, skirting round the edge of a horse-riding show that adjoined the ranges, and somehow had ridden in a big curve, right back the way I had come, till I'd looped around and rejoined my own tracks without realising it.

I felt very silly, until I realised I could now experience the same feelings that Titty and Roger did, when lost in the fog in Swallowdale.

Oh, except it wasn't foggy. Whoops.

Anyway, who else has recreated a moment from the books inadvertantly?
posted via 81.129.151.135 user Magnus.


message 44482 - 05/22/19
From: John Nichols, subject: Trains
Dear Jock:

I was surprised last week to get a message in my work email inbox about a large train in some forgotten corner of the world. But thank you for the post it was interesting. I had always thought the NSW Garrets were the largest engines because of the tale of one getting lost in the Liverpool Tunnel and the drivers could not open the doors.

Story - train went up mountain - and disappeared -- who would look in the tunnel at the top of the mountain.

it has been to long since I was on this site.

John
posted via 47.218.214.52 user Mcneacail.


message 44481 - 05/15/19
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Something new?
Thanks Jock, very true!
posted via 2.30.184.98 user MTD.
message 44480 - 05/15/19
From: Jock, subject: Re: Something new?
Mike, may I add my voice to that of all those who wish you well. I ca guess how you feel. A number of painful leg ulcers, a dodgy knee and a bust hip joint have combined to sap my mobility. However, I just about still manage to get around, do the odd spot of translation. TarBoard, when it wakes up, is a welcome solace!

posted via 178.43.152.151 user Jock.
message 44479 - 05/14/19
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Something new?
Thanks Peter, again much appreciated.
posted via 2.30.184.98 user MTD.
message 44478 - 05/14/19
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Something new?
Thanks Mike, much appreciated. Thankfully no, mobility (I walk with a stidk and need supervising(!) to get up stairs) and concentration for reading and being online etc. So very fortunate and have had good care from our local hospital and support from family and friends.
posted via 2.30.184.98 user MTD.
message 44477 - 05/13/19
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Something new?
I too am sorry to hear of Mike D's illness. Very glad to have you back on Tarboard, Mike, and I hope the recovery goes OK.
posted via 81.141.61.154 user Peter_H.
message 44476 - 05/13/19
From: John Wilson , subject: Re: Something new?
On Genia, Rupert Hart-Davis comments in his autobiography "Halfway to Heaven" on his time at Cape before leaving to establish his own publishing firm. As the (very) junior partner he was responsible for the firm’s "difficult" authors including Robert Graves, Wyndham Lewis and Arthur Ransome; AR because of Genia with her "distrustfulness, venom and guile".

Hart-Davis was a friend of AR because of their enthusiasm for cricket and rugby (and they had both dropped out of university in their first year). He got AR to write introductions for his "Mariners Library" reprints.

I recall that in "The Last Englishman" the bio by Chambers that Chambers wrote about Genia "She was his fiercest critic, deploring his books while he as writing them but praising the book as his greatest effort when it was published". She found "The Picts and the Martyrs" hopeless, but it was finally published as his mother liked it. A book I like, because of Dick.

posted via 203.96.136.126 user hugo.


message 44475 - 05/13/19
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Something new?
I'm sorry to hear your news, Mike. I trust any permanent damage is either non-existent, or, at the worst, minor.
posted via 14.200.206.31 user mikefield.
message 44474 - 05/12/19
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Something new?
I hadn't come across this Wardale item before. Just to add my twopenn'orth.....
I have great confidence in Taqui's books. Without their details, Jill and I would never have found the house in the Syrian hills. And talking to Suzie on the phone in 1994 about that expedition, I found her completely charming. Not a terror at all.
I put an item in Mixed Moss some years ago about AR's Broads holidays in 1938/9 with the Young family. His competitive nature showed up then. The boys had noticed the best moorings, so in 1939 they raced him to get there first, and he was very put out.
posted via 81.158.90.198 user awhakim.
message 44473 - 05/12/19
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Something new?
I had noticed Adam about Tarboard being in the 'doldrums', I've been out of action myself having had a stroke 10 weeks ago and only been home from hospital 6 weeks. I'm doing OK but as well as poor mobility find it hard to concentrate on things online like Tarboard or reading.

I occasionally look at the Arthur Ransome public facebook group and often surprised by the comments or questions that are well covered by 'All Things Ransome', maybe someone should point this out and that Tarboard exists. I don't contribute or comment myself not being part of facebook (it always seems to be a kind of 'showing off'!

posted via 2.30.184.98 user MTD.


message 44472 - 05/09/19
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Something new?
People are often very multi-faceted, presenting different faces to different people. It is the difference between looking at a portrait and meeting an individual in person. However we don't always see every aspect even when we see someone in person.
I know that my brothers and I had quite different views of my grandparents. As the oldest, I knew them a bit better and saw them with more mature eyes than they did. I can see how a younger cousin might see her grandparents and even an uncle as aloof and "god-like", that was probably a relic of the Victorian age which is how it seems the Great Aunt is portrayed.
Ransome was certainly impressed by the Collingwood men, even if it was different from the way the girls impressed him! Whether that was because they were intellectually sharper than he was or just that he had a different way of seeing things due to his upbringing, loss of a father etc.
posted via 99.240.138.46 user Adam.
message 44471 - 05/07/19
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Something new?
I'll have a shot at responding to Adam's posting referring to the Philippa Ryan interview. However, I don't know whether Mrs Ryan is still alive. I suspect she isn't, but if she is, a fierce refutation of her opinions on AR and the Collingwoods and the Altounyans might land TarBoard in a libel suit, so I'll be careful. In any case, much of what she told Roger Wardale comes as no surprise.

Ransome's occasional bad temper is well known and has been mentioned often. 'Lacking direction'? Well he chopped and changed a lot during his life, but once he found Evgenia and his ability to write successful books, he stayed with both. 'Forever running away'? I can't see it like that. He didn't run away from Russia, until he had to.

'Felt guilty about his treatment of Ivy' - again, this is more or less accepted.

'Mavis won and Ransome was furious'. Furious probably with himself, as Mavis was unwieldy and should not have won. Roger Wardale has written that 'the dinghy became unstable in anything of a blow'.

The rest of the interview is mainly about petty family liaisons and resentments. Many large families, thrown together by marriage, have these. I have always believed that we should not try to make either saints or villains out of the Altounyans - they were just there at the time, and certainly partly the inspiration for the Swallows. It has been said that the Swallows are a bit too perfect for children. The Altounyans were not perfect, but did much good in the world - particularly Roger. I'm glad that Mrs Ryan found him 'good fun'.
posted via 81.141.61.154 user Peter_H.


message 44470 - 05/06/19
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Something new?
It seems that TarBoard has been in the doldrums and very quiet for quite a long time and so I thought that I would post something to see if some discussion can be provoked.

I don't know how many people here have visited and explored our companion site All Things Ransome . It developed from the Literary Pages of an earlier version of the TARS website.

It contains a lot of interesting Ransome related material, from articles and reviews to simple quizzes and games.

Today I thought that I would look in the Connections pages, Arthur Ransome Connections which contain a number of articles about people who met or somehow connected with Ransome during his lifetime. Several of them descrbe reply cards received by a young fans after they wrote to Ransome, another describes a visit by Ellen Tillenghast to have tea with Arthur and Evgenia when they lived in London.

However, the story that I found most informative was that of Roger Wardle's interview with Phillipa Ryan, Ursula Collingwood's daughter. She describes Ransome as a rather insecure and irascible man she knew as a child. Competitive and did not like losing. Her impressions of Evgenia were a bit different. Many people sem to demonise Evgenia a bit with concerns over her disapproving nature for Ransome's later books but she did seem to rule the roost as she was a decisive character. Reading this some of Ransome's later distancing from the Altounyan family can be explained as being part of his character.
The article also contains short snippets about the Collingwoods and Altounyans which are not really very complimentary. I did find Susan's later activity in France during the war etc. to be interesting when you think of how Ransome portrayed her in the books. Much more like Nancy than Susan in my opinion.
Of course one does have to wonder about the descriptions and how much it is a generational attitude towards her uncles, aunts and grandparents.
I suggest that yu have a read (see link below) and give me your ideas

posted via 99.240.138.46 user Adam.
message 44469 - 04/20/19
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Richard Jefferies museum
I can report back that the lake isn't quite as exciting as in the book, but pleasant enough for an hour's stroll around. There are a lot of swans, and a bizarre concrete diving platform from the 1970s. I didn't try the museum.
posted via 81.129.151.135 user Magnus.
message 44468 - 04/07/19
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Richard Jefferies museum
Some of you may have read the children's story 'Bevis', which has been mentioned by a few Ransome scholars as a work that may have inspired the young Ransome or the genre of "outdoor children playing at make-believe" in general.

I've only just realised the author has his old house (near Swindon, UK) turned into a museum, and I wondered if any of you had been there? Do tell me if it is any good.

Personally, I find Bevis to be a boy with all the Roger-ness of Roger turned up to 11, plus all the imagination of Titty turned up to 11, combined with Nancy's expectations of leadership....

posted via 81.129.151.135 user Magnus.
message 44467 - 03/15/19
From: MarkD, subject: Re: Swallow ... The model!
That's lovely - will you paint her?
posted via 165.225.81.41 user MarkD.
message 44466 - 03/14/19
From: Andy, subject: Swallow ... The model!
Nearly there!

(Just a few several-dozen more jobs to do before I'm declaring this finished.)

Apologies if you've all seen this on Facebook or elsewhere.

Andy


[ Image ]

posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.


message 44465 - 03/11/19
From: MarkD, subject: Re: Was John Walker a Competent Seaman?
Does anyone have a tidal stream atlas for Harwich handy? Should be able to see the relative tidal vectors for ebb and flood at the rough location the Goblin was moored, to gauge relative strength of pull.
posted via 86.151.4.231 user MarkD.
message 44464 - 03/11/19
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Was John Walker a Competent Seaman?
The tidal range between high and low water at Harwich varies between a little over 13 feet to about 7 feet depending on whether it is a spring or neap tide. I don't recall Ransome telling us which it was.
For a chain rode, it is normally a 3:1 ratio between scope (length of chain laid out) and the water depth. I am not sure how deep the location where Goblin was anchored but if it was fairly shallow, then a 10 feet change in depth could be a significant reduction in the holding but unless Jim Brading was very careless and did not lay out enough scope the anchor should not have been straight below the Goblin even at high water. However, the reduction in holding power of an anchor reduces as the scope to depth ratio reduces so high water is the most likely time for its efficacy to fail.

Secondly, the change in the direction of flow as the tide turned would change the direction of pull on the anchor. One of the ways of "tripping" an anchor is to pull it from a vertical or from a position opposite from the one which it was originally laid. In this case as the ebb tide took the Goblin downstream. she would have been pulling the anchor from the opposite direction so making it more likely to break free.
posted via 99.240.138.46 user Adam.


message 44463 - 03/11/19
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Was John Walker a Competent Seaman?
And I realised I missed a turn of tide in that description when, shortly after they moored, the tide started to flood. At that time, with a sufficient scope of rode out, Goblin would have swung around quite readily without any problems, to be facing downstream with the rode now heading upstream from the anchor.

It was on the next turn of tide, about six hours later, when another change of direction of the rode might have been sufficient (with by then a very short scope) to have broken out the anchor.
posted via 14.200.206.31 user mikefield.


message 44462 - 03/10/19
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Was John Walker a Competent Seaman?
I don't think it's "the strongest pull on the anchor chain" that's of concern here. Rather, it's the shortest length of rode relative to depth of water, which occurs at the top of the tide.

Goblin had come back up-river and moored on the North Shelf on the last of the ebb, so she would have been facing upstream, with the rode pointing downstream, when the anchor was set.

As Magnus and Jon have said, even a few fathoms of chain at the anchor end of the rode (whether or not the rest of the rode is rope) would normally lie flat on the bottom, exerting a horizontal pull on a properly-embedded anchor and thus keeping it in place. If there are jerks on the rode, as with strong gusts of wind on the moored vessel, the length of chain can lift momentarily, but essentially it acts as a spring, falling back down again as soon as the gust is over. (In Goblin's case the entire rode is chain anyway, which of course is even better.)

If the effect of the rode's catenary is lost however because the rode is very short, then the weight of the chain has less effect and the pull on the anchor becomes more vertical, and eventually the anchor will be plucked out of the ground. This effect will be exacerbated should the pull of the rode start coming from a different direction at the same time.

Now, if Mike Bender's guess were correct and the anchor left the bottom at half-flood, then Goblin would indeed have drifted upstream until the tide turned. But we're told (by John, at the end of Chapter 7) that it was on or just after high tide when Goblin went adrift. So the anchor had held until just on high water, when the rode could have been very nearly vertical anyway (we don't have enough information to be sure), and it may well have been the change in direction of the pull on the rode when the tide turned that tipped the balance and tripped the anchor. In any case, Goblin would certainly have drifted seaward once she started dragging, exactly as AR put it.

So it seems to me that Bender hasn't read the text all that well, because he should have picked that up. And although I only read the first page of his article I noted two other errors in it -- one, that Roger was six in S&A (when the very first sentence in the book tells us that he was seven), and another when he mentions Goblin's length as being twenty feet, when as far as I know her length isn't mentioned in the book at all. But we do know she's a seven-tonner, which implies a length of about 30'. (And in fact, as we know but Bender might not, Goblin is actually the real-life Nancy Blackett, whose length on deck is 28'.)

None of this is to say that John didn't make mistakes. He did. After all, this was his first time on a vessel the size of Goblin, and his first experience of being in tidal waters. But I think Bender is drawing a pretty long bow if he concludes that John is therefore a poor seaman.

posted via 14.200.206.31 user mikefield.
message 44461 - 03/09/19
From: Jon, subject: Re: Was John Walker a Competent Seaman?
The paywall blocks all but the first page.

I believe that the author was referring to the "rising" flood exerting the strongest pull at half water; ebb, by definition, is when the tidal current is flowing toward the sea. I'm not familiar with the term "rising ebb"; I suspect it's a state (around dead low water) where the flood's begun and is flowing over the continuing ebb tide but the stronger ebb current at depth means the tidal level's falling though surface currents are running onshore.

My reaction is the same as Magnus' about the relevance of the time of strongest pull; as long as there's enough scope to the anchor line it wouldn't be a problem.

Since the main anchor's on a chain, not a rope (which will have, at best, minimal weight under water, and may even have a slight buoyancy), the catenary would provide some measure of "cushion" to the pull, decreasing as the scope of the anchor line decreases with the rising tide. The aid from the weight of a chain, rather than a rope, for the anchor line is why even where a rope anchor line is in use, larger vessels will often use a length of chain between the rope and the anchor.

At high tide, with minimal scope (approaching 1:1, since the chain was vertical when John checked it),the anchor could capsize, losing its hold, when the flow reverses to the ebb. Without ample scope to set it in the new direction, it'd skip over the bottom.

As to his not checking as to whether the chain was cleated off, in the chain locker, we have Ransome's own words that the chain went "out over the bows with a bit of frayed rope flying after it", so the rope at the end apparently broke under continual abrasion from the overlying chain and the sudden shock rather than not having been secured.
posted via 98.218.103.166 user Jon.


message 44460 - 03/09/19
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Was John Walker a Competent Seaman?
Do we care when the "strongest pull on the anchor chain" was? The anchor may still hold if the line is long enough to tug at the correct (sideways-ish) angle. Only when the depth of water increases much more does the angle of pull on the anchor (upwards) cause it to break free.

I'm a dinghy sailor though, not a yachtsman, so happy to be corrected....
posted via 81.129.151.135 user Magnus.


message 44459 - 03/09/19
From: Andy Clayton, subject: Re: Was John Walker a Competent Seaman?
The rising eb-tide argument is valid. London is a perfect example of early mariners taking advantage of the rising ebb to push them up the river, against the flow. The mooring and unloading then took place in a sheltered river, rather than an exposed estuary, and the town had a narrower bridging point. When leaving port, they would do so on a falling tide. The Goblin would have lifted and drifted up the Stour until the tide turned, then the combination of outgoing tide and river flow would have taken the boat out to sea. Wouldn't have got the story off to a good start though.
posted via 46.208.65.213 user cousin_jack.
message 44458 - 03/08/19
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Was John Walker a Competent Seaman?
UK sailors may be familiar with the magazine 'The Mariner's Mirror', which is the journal of the Society for Nautical Research. In the current issue (Feb 2019) there is an article entitled 'Was Arthur Ransome's John Walker a Competent Seaman?'. The author is Mike Bender of Exeter University.

In the article, Mr Bender lists a number of faults in John's seamanship, mainly in WDMTGTS. He begins with a rather startling point about the Goblin drifting out to sea at the beginning of the book, which he thinks is "authorial sleight of hand" on AR's part:

"The anchor breaks out and the boat starts drifting. However, the strongest pull on the anchor chain would have occurred after half tide, but this would mean that, rather than drift with the new ebb out to sea, the Goblin would drift up the Stour on the flood, but 'We Didn't Mean to Go to Ipswich' doesn't have quite the same ring."

I am not a sailor, and I don't really understand Mike Bender's argument, but others might. The article is available online, possibly behind a pay wall, although it may be possible to access it as a guest. The first page is on open access anyway. Go to the 'Mirror' home page at the link below and then click on the article in the list of contents.

Mariner's Mirror

posted via 86.129.0.212 user Peter_H.


message 44457 - 03/06/19
From: Woll, subject: Windermere Jetty in the Guardian
Windermere Jetty is first in the list of "10 of the UK's best new family attractions for 2019"!

posted via 81.174.149.186 user Woll.
message 44456 - 02/27/19
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: Why did the Admiralty summon Cdr Walker to London?
A very good point, Magnus, about the preamble in each book (which I haven't checked - I believe you!). It's a literary device to allow the fiction, just as 18th C romans a lettres were introduced by an account by the author of how he found a packet of letters in a drawer.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44455 - 02/27/19
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Why did the Admiralty summon Cdr Walker to London?
A good list of chances to die, Andy! What amuses me is that each book is carefully introduced with the parents giving permission for the holiday overall, as if the risks had been thought through.

So it is not that the naughty Walkers disobeyed their parents and thus were nearly crushed in a mine / drowned offshore / died by exposure.

OK, perhaps Mrs Blackett didn't actually give permission as such; Nancy seems the type to disappear off regardless!

I suppose the children of the 1930s had a lot more risks to contend with in everyday life - fewer medicines, lead paint everywhere, no seatbelts, etc - so perhaps parents felt it impossible to guard their children against every danger (as parents try to in 2019). Or maybe I haven't thought this theory through properly?
posted via 81.129.151.135 user Magnus.


message 44454 - 02/14/19
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Swallows and Armenians
This new play at the Theatre by the Lake, Keswick, is interesting.
posted via 86.147.61.77 user awhakim.
message 44453 - 02/07/19
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Children progressing and learning in series fiction
For the quote from the child's letter to Ransome, see "Motive and Motif in Swallows and Amazons and Pigeon Post" by Kirsty Cochrane https://www.allthingsransome.net/literary/m_text2.htm Reference 8
posted via 99.240.138.46 user Adam.
message 44452 - 02/07/19
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Children progressing and learning in series fiction
Whilst I personally cannot abide Blyton, I can now understand the appeal.

Wasn't there a child who wrote to Ransome saying, "please write another book with the same children doing all the same things"? It was quoted somewhere in one of the biographical works (I apologise for forgetting the exact reference). I can totally understand why children feel that way, despite our adult reasoning seeing a need for plot development and the lure of something new.


posted via 81.129.151.135 user Magnus.


message 44451 - 02/06/19
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Children progressing and learning in series fiction
Yes, interesting.

My first thought is that this demonstrates why AR is a great writer (as opposed to a great children's writer as I have argued at length before) and the best that can be said about Blyton is that for many of us she was a starting point, but otherwise she provided 'safe' reading in the sense the nearly every book is the same as the last one.

I'll have to listen to the programme and give it some more thought.
posted via 95.144.242.144 user MTD.


message 44450 - 02/06/19
From: wdmtgts, subject: Children progressing and learning in series fiction
Half-listening to Radio 4 this evening and suddenly I tuned into a mention of classic children's lit - not AR but comparison of the Famous Five and the Chalet girls - in a most unlikely context. It was in a programme called Only Artists, in which Val McDermid meets the Scottish graphic artist Vin Deighan. (It started at 9.30pm on 6th and the reference comes at about 9.40ish, if you can catch the play-again version.)
The artist was saying that in the Famous Five 'it's always the same summer', with no learning or development - no 'We'd better not go into that dark cave, as when we did that last year we got captured by gypsies'. In contrast, he said, in the Chalet School series the girls do learn, e.g. from a tobogganing accident. I can't comment on the Chalet series, but he's quite right about the F Five - though not of all Blyton, as in the term structure of Malory Towers all the girls have a history, and there are examples of learning and redemption. And of course while in AR the timeline is sometimes hard to follow, the children do learn and progress. An interesting theme!
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44444 - 01/26/19
From: Andy Clayton, subject: Re: Why did the Admiralty summon Cdr Walker to London?
In PD and ML they are well away from Britain's shore's. They are quite likely to meet unaccustomed threats, including firearms. There are many parts of the world where one would hesitate to tread for similar reasons today. In GN, I don't remember that the S,A,D's were threatened with Jemmerling's shotgun, just the birds.
However I will take issue where you say they don't meet with threats in the other books. They are in potential life threatening situations in:
Night sailing in S&A. John admits he was a duffer.
The SD shipwreck,and possibly getting lost on the fells in the fog.
The WH blizzard, and the sheep rescue scene.
The PP mine tunnel collapse, and the fell fire.
All that glutinous mud with ever changing tides in SW is also rather threatening, though they are only caught once, on the wade.
WD's inadvertent voyage across the north sea.
I can't imagine a modern day scout master would get his risk assessments approved, to leave a party of youngsters to fend for themselves in any of the above situations.
The excitement has to be created to give the story meaning. The author reaches into different scenarios to get that excitement.

posted via 91.125.122.15 user cousin_jack.
message 44443 - 01/24/19
From: Duncan, subject: Re: WH clarifications
Well from looking at the endpaper map and the slightly larger scale "Eskimo settlements" map/illustration, we can see the observatory is to the south of the tarn. So really the head of the lake and the tarn are more-or-less in the same direction. So it really depends which hills he's looking at. Imagining this observatory and tarn is on the east shore of Windermere, somewhere south of Bowness, then you might look (a little) right towards Wansfell and High Street, etc. and left towards Loughrigg or the Langdales. If we're only talking about a slight move left or right, I do feel it could be either without the maps being hugely inaccurate. We're also assuming the lake is as directly North/South aligned as it appears on the endpaper maps.

Duncan
posted via 151.226.11.4 user Duncan.


message 44442 - 01/23/19
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Why did the Admiralty summon Cdr Walker to London?
Good points Ed, particularly about the threats and danger that don't appear elsewhere.

PD, ML and GN are different from the rest.
posted via 95.144.241.218 user MTD.


message 44441 - 01/23/19
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Why did the Admiralty summon Cdr Walker to London?
The three stories, PD, ML, and GN, share a unique difference from the rest of the 12 in that in these three, there is GUNFIRE. There is the threat of someone being killed. People die, thanks to a waterspout. There were times our friends were LOCKED UP. This are some serious situations. But the reader takes comfort in knowing that this is just a made up story created by the imagination of these children where there is no REAL threat to life.

However, in WD, there is also a real threat to life by their drifting out to sea in a fog, in rough weather, in shoal waters. This story has its fascination because of that REAL threat, and how they managed to survive.

And in the first of those three, the SWALLOW is being used. But it does not belong to the Walkers, but to Mr. Jackson at Holly Howe. While being lent to John and his crew, they may refer to it as THEIR boat, but really it must be left at Holly Howe as there is where it belongs. For the sake of their made up story in PD, they can pretend that SWALLOW really is theirs, where it did get nicked by a bullet.

We all understand all these 12 are fiction, all just made up, and those three are stories within a story which allows for a bit more "risk".

Within all 12, we are taken away from our own real worlds to become, once again, with our friends we met so very long ago, who never get old, and as long as we go sailing or camping with them, we too remain young. Therein lies the joy of being a part of the Ransome Adventures.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA


posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 44440 - 01/22/19
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Why did the Admiralty summon Cdr Walker to London?
Well Robin, good to read a thorough reasoned discussion and I agree with your conclusions.

I've been using the term meta-fiction (I can't remember where I first saw it) when in AR's case it is not the right one.

There is certainly something different about PD, ML and possibly GN. Perhaps, like others, I have been misled by AR's own explanation as to the origin of Peter Duck?
posted via 95.144.241.218 user MTD.


message 44439 - 01/22/19
From: Jon, subject: Re: Why did the Admiralty summon Cdr Walker to London?
The definition you cited says "the author alludes". Since Ransome, in SD, explicitly states that PD was made up by his characters, and further, on the title page of PD refers to it being "Based on information supplied by the Swallows and Amazons", metafiction it is. I do not consider Ransome to be "other sources" regarding his writings, rather the definitive source.

posted via 98.218.103.166 user Jon.
message 44438 - 01/22/19
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Why did the Admiralty summon Cdr Walker to London?
But that’s precisely what I said, that ‘we only know from other sources that Peter Duck was written by the explorers’. To come within the OED definition, the book itself has to allude to its own fictionality. Ergo, not metafiction.
posted via 86.179.131.131 user RobinSelby.
message 44437 - 01/22/19
From: Jon, subject: Re: Why did the Admiralty summon Cdr Walker to London?
As metadata is data about data, metafiction is fiction about fiction.
May I remind you of this passage from Chapter 4 of SD?
Peter Duck had grown up gradually to be one of the able-seaman’s most constant companions, shared now and then by the boy, but not taken very seriously by the others, though nobody laughed at him. He had been the most important character in the story they had made up during those winter evenings in the cabin of the wherry with Nancy and Peggy and Captain Flint. Peter Duck, who said he had been afloat ever since he was a duckling, was the old sailor who had voyaged with them to the Caribbees in the story and, still in the story, had come back to Lowestoft with his pockets full of pirate gold.
Emphasis added.
posted via 98.218.103.166 user Jon.
message 44436 - 01/22/19
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Why did the Admiralty summon Cdr Walker to London?
The term metafiction was coined after I did my Eng Lit degrees, so I am at a disadvantage. I see that OED defines it as ‘Fiction in which the author self-consciously alludes to the artificiality or literariness of a work by parodying or departing from novelistic conventions (esp. naturalism) and narrative techniques’. I do not see how this is relevant to Peter Duck or Missee Lee. Once the reader takes the imaginative leap of embracing the idea that the explorers are sailing the Atlantic in search of treasure, or sailing round the world, then everything is internally self-consistent and Ransome does nothing to stress artificiality or literariness. In fact, the opposite is true. By adding detail after detail, he convinces and reassures the reader that the story is true. Take, for example, the mass of detail crossing the Atlantic, culminating in Captain Flint’s narrow escape from the shark on the first morning after reaching Crab Island.

The books are firmly within the genres of Treasure Island (find treasure, fight pirates, win), and King Solomon’s Mines (find unknown civilisation, get captured, escape), but that is as far as the literariness goes. To be within a genre does not amount to metafiction.

As far as I am aware, we only know from other sources that Peter Duck was written by the explorers. There was a false start along these lines, but it was abandoned. The reference to Peter Duck in Swallowdale as Titty’s imaginary friend is the only remnant, and this would have been better deleted, since it does not advance anything and simply makes the young reader wonder what’s going on (at least this young reader a long time ago).

As stated, the arguments for Great Northern? being metafiction amount to Ransome getting the plot from someone else and the story not fitting into the chronology. I don’t buy this. Shakespeare stole most of his plots from someone else, but no one labels the plays with stolen plots ‘metafiction’. Equally, not fitting into the chronology has nothing to do with the concept of metafiction. We don’t worry about the chronology of Sterne’s works.

We understand the topography of Great Northern? in some detail, but it is true that the story lacks the sense of belongingness that we find in the other books. This is part and parcel of the plot, in that the explorers have to find the Great Northern Divers in a remote place. It is also, perhaps, because Ransome had written himself out.

One of the great strengths of Ransome’s work is its reality. That is why his readers wrote to him, asking about the locations or wanting to be introduced to the characters. While my parents were having a drink in a pub, I used to sit in the car poring over the maps in the AA book, until I found the only lake which matched the description in the stories. But the key characteristics of metafiction are artificiality and literariness, at the opposite end of the spectrum. Let us put the term metafiction back in Pseud’s Corner where it belongs.

I’m glad we sorted this out.

posted via 86.179.131.131 user RobinSelby.


message 44435 - 01/21/19
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Why did the Admiralty summon Cdr Walker to London?
To me, meta-fiction is a useful term to describe PD, ML and as has been suggested by others GN.

As you may remember, AR may not have used the exact term but he started the whole idea in his explanation of how 'Peter Duck' was created by the S&As during their winter stay on a wherry.

Just as PD is both a tribute to and reworking of 'Treasure Island' ML has its roots in real life events.

GN is slightly different, but the strong arguments for it being one are that most of the story was supplied by someone else and that it fits very awkwardly in the timeline of all the other books (and in relation to school holidays etc.)
posted via 95.144.241.218 user MTD.


message 44434 - 01/21/19
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: WH clarifications
I have to disagree with you Duncan, I'm afraid. The map above shows the details pretty much in accordance with AR's own endpaper map. From the text itself we know the location of Holly Howe, and also the approximate locations of the observatory and the tarn. Even if those last two were not mapped quite correctly, I think both maps would have to be distorted beyond recognition for a "right" sight-line to become a "left" one in the case in point.
posted via 61.68.82.101 user mikefield.
message 44433 - 01/21/19
From: Jon, subject: Re: Why did the Admiralty summon Cdr Walker to London?
I think many people are overlooking the obvious. Cdr. Walker was stationed in Malta for an extended time just the previous winter (in SA the ship was "at Malta, but under orders for Hong-Kong"; in WH, 15-16 months later it was still in Malta, "their mother had gone away only yesterday morning, to go to Malta, where their father’s ship was stationed for a time"), yet he had been summoned home from the China Station (overland), which would indicate a severely truncated assignment there. Clearly he was really (as has been proposed before) working for the Secret (not the Senior) Service, and was brought back to meet with his control agent, one Arthur Ransome, who found it convenient for him to be located in the Harwich area for a year or so. Cdr. Walker's career was clearly at the mercy of, not the First Lord, but rather, to steal a reference from Poul Anderson, "the great Historian".
posted via 98.218.103.166 user Jon.
message 44432 - 01/21/19
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Why did the Admiralty summon Cdr Walker to London?
One point that seems to have been forgotten in this thread. Owen Dudley Edwards brought it up at the TARS Literary Weekend in 2009.
Although SW is nominally set in 1932, he pointed out the fluctuating age of Bridget (a baby only two years earlier), and thought AR was thinking SW as 1939. The Best of Childhood records that on August 7, 1939, Evgenia made Arthur change the basic theme in Chapter 1 & 2, and the script didn't go to Cape's till September 7.
And who was appointed First Lord of the Admiralty in September 1939? Winston Churchill. At that time, AR was strongly against him. He must have appeared, the perfect villain, bang on cue.
posted via 86.140.235.245 user awhakim.
message 44431 - 01/21/19
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Why did the Admiralty summon Cdr Walker to London?
There’s no doubt that Cdr Walker was posted to Ganges as a permanent member of the Establishment, eg:

‘He’s going to be stationed at Shotley…’ (p23, We Didn’t Mean To Go To Sea, Jonathan Cape, 2004)

‘They looked up at the buildings on Shotley Point, houses, a water tower, and a flagstaff on the naval school as tall as the mast of a sailing ship. On one of the black, wooden piers were a lot of grey naval cutters and whalers and gigs. If Daddy’s coming to Shotley meant sailing in those boats, and living somewhere up there, able to look down on Harwich harbour and on the ships coming in and out, things were going to be very good indeed. They looked at the place as people look at a stranger with whom they know they are going to have a lot to do.’ (p60)

“Commander Walker took his passport out of his pocket and handed it over.
‘We heard you were coming, sir,’ said the elder man as soon as he had read the name in it.” (p329-330)

The Customs officer must have known that Cdr Walker was a senior officer at Ganges. He would have been less likely to know the name if Cdr Walker was only visiting to carry out a review.

posted via 86.179.177.159 user RobinSelby.


message 44430 - 01/21/19
From: Duncan, subject: Re: WH clarifications
I suppose it depends on the precise alignment of observatory and tarn.
posted via 151.226.11.4 user Duncan.
message 44429 - 01/20/19
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Why did the Admiralty summon Cdr Walker to London?
I don't have a copy of WDMTGTS immediately to hand, but was it explicitly stated that Cdr Walker was posted to HMS Ganges?

In WW1 Harwich was the base of Commodore (later Admiral) Tyrwhitt's Harwich Force of light cruisers and destroyers. Base facilities were rundown after the Armistice, and later reinstated for WW2. With no formal naval presence at Harwich Cdr Walker could have been borne on the books of HMS Ganges while on detached duty to review local facilities. From 1939 the area became a base for destroyers, minesweepers and coastal forces, and later landing craft for the invasions of Normandy and the Scheldt.
posted via 92.16.97.49 user MartinH.


message 44428 - 01/20/19
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: Why did the Admiralty summon Cdr Walker to London?
I'm with you on not bandying 'metafiction', Robin. Readers are entitled to view some of the canon as less 'real' than others, but AR was working just as hard on them as on the others; he may occasionally make a slip in any of the books, and I'm not keen on the idea of ranking possible slips by the 'realness' of the book. We'll have someone coming on saying that all the books are fiction next - good grief.....
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44427 - 01/20/19
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Why did the Admiralty summon Cdr Walker to London?
I propose abolishing the term meta-fiction, since it unhelpfully suggests that there was a set of rules which Ransome signed up to. All novels are works of imagination; Missee Lee is just a little more imaginative with respect to setting than others in the canon. Nowadays, parents take their children round the world, educating them en route, as a matter of course. Ransome was ahead of his time.

In adopting a more imaginative approach, Ransome had to make minimum changes to the format so as to avoid breaking the bond of trust between author and reader. There is no need to regard John’s statement about Captain Walker’s promotion as untrustworthy. The statement does not advance the plot in any way, and telling the reader that it may be unreliable gratuitously destroys the bond of trust for no conceivable purpose. I was first given Missee Lee when I was ill many years ago. I would have been most indignant if some unkind soul had told me that some or all of it was unreliable. That would have wrecked the illusion.

I have no problem about Captain Walker’s promotion. Promotion was mainly based on seniority. One could assess pretty accurately when one would be promoted based on the number of captains retiring each year, and the number of commanders ahead of you in the Navy List.

In recent years I have been steeped in Admiralty matters and the Navy List. The Admiralty was a stickler for protocol, and would not have dreamed of putting a commander into a captain’s job. He would have been given the rank of Acting Captain, and this is how it would have appeared in the Navy List.

posted via 86.157.119.213 user RobinSelby.


message 44426 - 01/20/19
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin and U-boats
It's not difficult to imagine Cdr Walker saying a few words about the Harwich Force or surrendered submarines, much as Mrs Barrable described Breydon as it was 40 years earlier. The point is, he didn't.
posted via 86.157.119.213 user RobinSelby.
message 44425 - 01/19/19
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: WH clarifications
... and speaking of 'Winter Holiday', there are some very wintry pictures on LakelandCam today -- perfect WH stuff.

(If you're viewing this post after today, scroll to the bottom of the link and hit 'This week on the Cam', where they'll be for another week.)

posted via 61.68.82.101 user mikefield.
message 44424 - 01/19/19
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Why did the Admiralty summon Cdr Walker to London?
Answers to your first points aside, I don't think you can rely on 'Missee Lee' for Ted Walker's naval rank. It is acknowledged that this book is metafiction, so that nothing that 'happened' in this story necessarily actually 'happened' to the real fictional characters or their situations at all (if you follow...)

But more to the point, the master of a vessel is often referred to as her captain, whatever his actual rank. So the master of the Ganges for the time being, even if only a substantive Commander, could certainly have been referred to as the Captain. I seem to remember that Peggy refers to Ted as "Captain Walker" in 'Secret Water', while he was actually only a Commander. I should think non-naval people like Miss Lee and Peggy could quite readily get Ted Walker's naval rank incorrect.
posted via 61.68.82.101 user mikefield.


message 44423 - 01/19/19
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: WH clarifications
I think that the answer is, when first looking at the big hills he is looking a little east of north. Them as his view traverses to the left it swings through N to NNW where he can see the Beckfoot flagstaff. So in that sense he does indeed look left to see it -- left of his line of sight to the big hills.

However, it seems that the book is indeed wrong in this sense --

The text has, "...he... looked out through that great window, at the tarn, and then away to the left at the wonderful picture of the big hills at the head of the frozen lake."

His initial look from the barn was north to the tarn, so that his line of sight would move to the right in order for him to see the big hills next, not to the left as written.


[ Image ]

posted via 61.68.82.101 user mikefield.


message 44422 - 01/19/19
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: WH clarifications, timeline
Re the Winter Holiday timeline, the quarantine period is "near a month" or "Twenty-eight days the doctor says" (WH9).

There are three references to their original return day: "There’s another week yet" (Peggy, WH3),"Only three more days" (Dot, WH6), "going back .. in three days time, day after tomorrow is our last day" (Peggy to the Doctor, WH8).

There are several chapters which cover two days (To Spitzbergen by Ice, Days in the Fram) and some which could be three or more days: Doing without Nancy, Sailing Sledge, The uses of an Uncle.

We have two dates from the cache: 28 January and 10 February (WH24,27)

So the trick is to adjust the number of days in some of the chapters; see the Ransome wikia below.

posted via 203.96.133.238 user hugo.
message 44421 - 01/19/19
From: Jon, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin and U-boats
If they weren't there, they wouldn't have contributed to the story, so Ransome would have had no reason to include a side reference ("Drop anchor by where the U-boats used to be."?) The radar masts had the virtue of being a visible navigational aid, as did the Shotley signals mast.
posted via 98.218.103.166 user Jon.
message 44420 - 01/19/19
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin and U-boats
Jim or Cdr Walker knew about the U-boats and could have described them if they wished. They didn’t physically need to be there.
posted via 86.157.119.193 user RobinSelby.
message 44419 - 01/19/19
From: Jon, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
But how long after the war were the U-boats still there? The War Years | Harwich & Dovercourt (scroll to "150 U-boats anchored in the river off Harwich.") says that the submarines were removed and/or sold for scrap within about 3 years, so by 1922 at the latest. The only noted exceptions were four which, while under tow to the wrecking yard, broke free and drifted ashore. So even with the most liberal time frame, it's unlikely that there would have been any conspicuous signs of them by the time of WDMTGTS.

Given that the Chain Home station at Bawdsey wasn't built until 1937, yet is mentioned as a landmark, it's clear that Ransome's Harwich area is the one he lived in, not of the nominal time of the story.
posted via 98.218.103.166 user Jon.


message 44418 - 01/19/19
From: Robin Selby, subject: Why did the Admiralty summon Cdr Walker to London?
After successful postings at Malta and Hong Kong, Cdr Walker was sent to HMS Ganges at Shotley. He probably wondered whether he had done anything to upset the Second Sea Lord, who was in charge of personnel. If so, this meant an end of his hopes of becoming a Captain.

Ganges was very large, consisting of about 2,500 people. It educated and trained boys for the Navy. It was commanded by a Captain, so Cdr Walker would not be in charge. It was not a place that one associated with high-fliers such as Cdr Walker. It was a pretty grim sort of place (‘Shotley As I Knew It’, by R L Maguire – ‘I have no good – or kind – recollections of Shotley’. There are also extremely interesting oral histories along the same lines in the Imperial War Museum which are available on the website - https://www.iwm.org.uk/-collections/¬item/¬object/80005758). In the normal course of events Cdr Walker might have been posted to the Naval Staff to widen his experience before promotion to Captain. A posting to Ganges suggested that he had been passed over.

There are two questions – why Cdr Walker was summoned to the Admiralty at short notice, and what it was that Mrs Walker had to buy in London.

The summons to the Admiralty was odd, because the Admiralty upheld the chain of command. If it had wanted to discuss anything about Ganges, it would have summoned the Captain of Ganges. This could only mean that there had been a crisis at Ganges which meant that the Captain had been suspended, so that Cdr Walker had been sent there in the rank of Acting Captain to replace him. There might have been any number of reasons for the crisis. For example, in 1914 the Captain was held responsible for the disappearance of cash at Ganges, though he retained his job (ADM 156/11), and in 1928 a boy died after falling from the 142 foot mast, and a question was asked in Parliament.

Someone must have told Cdr Walker about the real reason for his posting at Shotley before he went to London, because ‘when they had come back for high tea at Miss Powell’s they learnt that something had happened that had made Daddy at least feel quite different. Tea was over before he came in smiling to himself’.

We know from Missee Lee, two books later, that Cdr Walker was promoted to Captain, so his time at Ganges and subsequent service on the Naval Staff must have been successful.

We can now surmise what Mrs Walker needed to buy in London. At Ganges, she would need to entertain visiting VIP’s and local dignitaries, so she had to expand her wardrobe. She might also have bought some special Chinese tea for Cdr Walker.

Cdr Walker must have had considerable powers of self-control, to keep his worries hidden from both children and readers.

posted via 86.157.119.193 user RobinSelby.


message 44417 - 01/19/19
From: Jon, subject: Re: WH clarifications
The Observatory opening looks North (note also that they can see Holly Howe from it, and the Plough is almost over Holly Howe (Ch. 2). So by looking left, Dick is looking toward the West.

Quarantine appears to have been a month, which may be considered 4 weeks, 30 days, or until the corresponding day of the next month (which would, for a holiday ending in January, be 31 days) (Ch. 10):

"It’s lucky it’s not the football term,” said John. “A month might make just the difference about getting into the fifteen. But anyhow, it’ll be pretty awful coming back to find everybody a whole month to windward and have all that leeway to make up.”

Even at the most conservative, the quarantine period would have started two days before they were scheduled to return (based on the day Nancy first showed symptoms) (Ch. 6, end):
“I do wish it hadn’t all got to stop so soon,” said Dorothea, as she and Dick walked home along the road under trees heavy with snow. “Only three more days.”

posted via 98.218.103.166 user Jon.
message 44416 - 01/19/19
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
I actually meant WWI. The paucity of references suggests that Ransome consciously steered clear of the war at all times. The acid test is Harwich, where naval officer and future naval officer sailed through waters steeped in very recent history without a single word on the subject. We can deduce that wherever Cdr Walker served, it was not at Harwich, or else the temptation would have been irresistible.

Incidentally E F Knight, who was such an influence on Ransome, wrote a popular account of the Harwich Force.

posted via 86.157.119.193 user RobinSelby.


message 44415 - 01/19/19
From: Tiss Flower, subject: WH clarifications
In Chapter 24 of WH, p276, AR writes that Dick, while at the observatory, looks left to see the flagstaff at Beckfoot. Is that right? Judging by the map, wouldn't he be looking to his right? Also, is it possible to calculate the number of extra days they spend at the lake due to Nancy's mumps before they return to school?
posted via 86.167.226.248 user Tiss_Flower.
message 44414 - 01/19/19
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
According to Wayne Hammond in his 2000 bibliography of Arthur Ransome, at one time AR wanted the year of climbing the Matterhorn changed from 1901 to 1900, and climbing Kanchenjunga from 1931 to 1930 (ie SA to be set in 1929 and SD in 1930) but that was never done. Page 90-91 of Hammond, but he does not say where he found this request (in Cape’s archives?) or when it dated from. Often though SA is taken as set in 1930. I see that I sent this to Tarboard on 19/1/2011, No 36548. Someone else suggested though that his notes for later books have the seris starting in 1930 though. And the latest S&A film was set in 1935.
posted via 203.96.133.238 user hugo.
message 44413 - 01/19/19
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
Various commentators have calculated the timing of the books from the ages of the children (and a chronology of their various adventures), based on knowing what year they climbed Kanchenjunga (with some discussion as to whether 1931 was an error for 1930, I think) - does anyone recall?
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44412 - 01/18/19
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
Assuming you mean WWII, the books were written during the war but set in the the pre-war period. Also, I see to remember from his letters he was asked by Cape not to include any references to the WWII.
posted via 95.144.241.218 user MTD.
message 44411 - 01/18/19
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
Slater Bob has the story about the young officer who discovered a gold mine then goes off to the war (PP3); Captain Flint writes the story off as a myth.

Mrs Barrable’s brother Richard who haddvised her against sailing the Teasel "was in the Navy during the War" (CC24).

Given their ages I would think that both Ted Walker and Colonel Jolys would have served in the "Great War" And Billy Lewthwaite may have learnt to drive (so could be a chauffeur) in the Army.



posted via 203.96.133.238 user hugo.


message 44410 - 01/18/19
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
Of course, it’s possible that the war didn’t happen in Ransome’s parallel universe. I don’t recall a single reference, despite the fact that Harwich was at the heart of it, and the U-boats surrendered there and were lined along the Stour.
posted via 86.179.235.42 user RobinSelby.
message 44409 - 01/18/19
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
Good stuff, Robin. Noted that you're rounding the dates; we'd presumably want to avoid Olo Lee sending his young daughter to school in England during the Great War; so if ML takes place c.1934 that would put Miss Lee (born c.1904) at school straight after the war and then to Camblidge at 18 in 1922. That could figure.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44408 - 01/17/19
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
The information provided by John Wilson is very useful. In addition, when Miss Lee returned from Cambridge, she saw that her father was a ‘velly old man’. There was then a period when Miss Lee learned the business at her father’s side until he died.

The following page lists Admiralty charts available in 1880:

https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20131001164920/http://www.ukho.gov.uk/AboutUs/Pages/UKHO-Archive.aspx

Chart 1262 covers Hong Kong to the Gulf of Liautung (modern Liaodong). It was corrected in 1879 and may be the chart which Miss Lee gave to the explorers. It seems to cover the route which the explorers wanted to take, at least to Hong Kong.

Readers of Mixed Moss will be aware of my theory that Miss Lee’s islands were actually based on the island of Nan’ao, which is off the city of Swatow/Shantou. There are some interesting files about Nan’ao in the Archives, which I have not yet read, but which have fairly full descriptions in the catalogue.

In 1844 Britons illegally living in Nan’ao to trade were ordered to evacuate (FO 682/1977/78, FO 682/1977/50, FO 682/1977/43) The last file states that Britons had built houses, roads and bridges in Nan’ao. So the bridge which impressed Captain Flint may have been built by Britons rather than Mr Lee. It is odd that they spent money on infrastructure, without any hope of revenue. This suggests a sizeable English settlement, but the fairly detailed account in the Nautical Magazine and Naval Chronicle of 1840 does not mention any English settlers.

FO 931/1031 of December 1849 reports on the trial of pirates arrested in the vicinity of Nan’ao. This shows that pirates operated near Nan’ao, and the authorities tried to stop them. This was a good reason for changing the business model from piracy to protection.

We can try to construct a timeline. All dates are rounded to the nearest ten years. Let us assume that the events of the book took place in 1930. From the drawing ‘Captain Flint recites his piece’, Miss Lee looks about 30, and was born in 1900. At that time Mr Lee was already ‘Olo Lee’ when the harbour master took up his job at exactly the same time. Presumably ‘Olo’ means ‘old’. Miss Lee went to Cambridge in about 1920, and returned home in her first year. Mr Lee died some time after, but allowing sufficient time for Miss Lee to learn the business and exercise her authority over the Taicoons.

We now have to decide what is meant by old and very old. Very old means say 70 or 80. If 70, then Mr Lee was born around 1850 and was 50 in 1900. Mr Lee was a very little boy when he was captured by the Dragon Island pirates, say in 1860. People would still remember the arrest of the pirates in 1849, and doubtless the authorities continued their efforts to control piracy. Mr Lee’s move into protection after he became Taicoon was therefore very wise.

Mr Lee’s junk sailed from Foochow (modern Fuzhou), which is perhaps where his family lived. Fuzhou is about 250 miles from Swatow/Shantou as the crow flies, at the other end of the Taiwan Strait. It seems odd that Mr Lee did not visit his family after he became Taicoon, but this would have interfered with the plot.

If Mr Lee became a father for the first time at the age of 50, and his wife died some time afterwards, then we can begin to get an idea of the bond between father and daughter. Clearly it was a foregone conclusion that she would succeed him. It must have been a great wrench to send her away for education, first to Hong Kong and then to Cambridge.


posted via 86.169.192.75 user RobinSelby.


message 44407 - 01/16/19
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
Captain Flint’s Harbourmaster friend at the "Hundredth Port" says about Missee Lee "It used to be Olo Lee when I first came here thirty years ago. It’s Missee Lee now ... We’d have had gunboats after her long ago if we knew where she was …" (ML 1). Titty and John rashly tell Miss Lee that their father is not just British but a Royal Navy captain, who was stationed at Hong Kong (ML 16).

So the Harbourmaster arrived in the 1900s "when the old Empress was in Pekin" before the Revolution in 1912. But no indication of how old Miss Lee is. And who were the other Taicoons before Taicoons Chang and Wu.

Miss Lee gives them a chart "an old chart, of 1879" that belonged to her father, but it could have been second-hand (ML 27). So very little to put on a Timeline!

posted via 202.49.156.202 user hugo.


message 44406 - 01/13/19
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
Excellent stuff - thanks, John. We need a timeline for Miss Lee....
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44405 - 01/13/19
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
Missee Lee says (Miss Lee Explains, ML13) that the "mistless" at Gleat Marlow said she was a "velly good pupil and ought to pass examinations and go to Camblidge". She had started an English education in Hong Kong where her father had a friend, an old customer. Her mother died when she was a little girl, but there were no sons and her father evidently did not remarry.

Her father remembered that his father was a "mandalin" (mandarin) with a peacock feather and gold button. He ruled "when the old Empress was in Pekin" but then the Levolution and Republic came; in 1912 with Yuan Shih Kai the first president; perhaps but not necessarily after her father died?
posted via 203.96.130.93 user hugo.


message 44404 - 01/13/19
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
Sure, all for speculation, though there's plenty of university product placement!
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44403 - 01/13/19
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
I’m not sure that Ransome would have actually mentioned Roedean by name. Product placement is a bit coarse. Just as Miss Lee said ‘Gleat Marlow’ rather than the name of the school, she would have said ‘Brighton’ rather than ‘Roedean’. The trouble is that in Miss Lee-speak, this would have come out as ‘Blighton’, which would be a touch unfortunate. So perhaps it’s just as well that Ransome decided on his little tribute to Walpole.
posted via 86.179.177.173 user RobinSelby.
message 44402 - 01/13/19
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
No, of course it's not necessary that the original name began with 'Great', and indeed the Malvern school name doesn't. My thinking was that AR might have picked Malvern Girls' School for a reason (beyond its excellence at the time of writing) that we don't know about yet, and that (I'm just cooperatively following the Walpole suggestion by Robin here) he was in the late pre-publication stage of ML as Walpole died, and reading through his references to the Malvern school thought of its location in Great Malvern and in a moment of inspiration adjusted a few letters as a tribute to Walpole.
Meanwhile, Roedean has certainly been rattling about in all our minds as a Miss Lee alma mater; but somehow - this is just me - I can't see AR discarding the resonant Roedean name at the last minute for an obscure one on a whim. We'll have to go and kneel at the grave in Rusland and summon his spirit.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44401 - 01/13/19
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
I don’t see why the original name for Miss Lee’s school should begin with ‘Great’.

Alternatively, Ransome might have sent Miss Lee to a school that everyone (including Mr Lee’s agent, who made the arrangements) would have heard of, ie Roedean. By a couple of happy coincidences, Roedean (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roedean_School) was a feeder school for Miss Lee’s college, Newnham, and during the war was evacuated to Keswick, where Walpole’s house was situated. It’s interesting that Walpole might have been able to help Ransome with Miss Lee’s original school, and (after his death) with her actual school.

Roedean was a boarding school, and was situated in Brighton. It would therefore have been easy for Mr Lee’s agent to run down to keep an eye on her and take her out for the odd treat. We need to consider where Miss Lee would have lived during school holidays; one does not get the feeling that Miss Lee was invited to the homes of other girls at Roedean. Did Miss Lee ever visit London? Difficult to avoid London on the way to Cambridge.

Mr Lee presumably acquired his English agent via contacts in Swatow/Shantou. Mr Lee might have maintained contact with businessmen who paid their ransom to him after they were captured by his junks. Perhaps the agent arranged for the supply of Miss Lee’s European furniture and Cooper’s Marmalade. Alternatively they might have been procured in Swatow/Shantou.

Perhaps an English company operating in Swatow/Shantou sent an employee back to London for training, and he became Mr Lee’s agent?

It’s difficult to tell when Miss Lee was at school. She has her Taicoons firmly under control, so presumably some years have elapsed since she returned from England. You pays your money and you takes your choice, but I imagine that she was at school in the 1920’s, and was 25-30 when the events described in the book took place.

posted via 86.179.177.173 user RobinSelby.


message 44399 - 01/11/19
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
Point of order, I'm afraid. Just happening to have S to M beside the computer when I read Magnus' post - it should have gone back on the shelf weeks ago - I looked up the letter. There are none on Feb 14th, it's actually Feb 19th, 1941.
posted via 86.144.242.202 user awhakim.
message 44398 - 01/10/19
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
PS What about Malvern Girls' College in Great Malvern? (called Malvern St James from 2006) It was founded in 1893, and flourished; the school's history summary tells us that 'Miss Iris Brooks was the celebrated Headmistress from the late 1920s to the 1950s. High academic standards were set and maintained.' And it's 60 miles from Rugby.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44397 - 01/10/19
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
Perhaps Gleat Marlow school served Oxford marmalade at breakfast? A headmaster at some point might have been an Oxford man - but no, that wouldn't work, given Miss Lee's affection for her school and antipathy to Oxford. I see in the school history that the William Borlase was day-only from 1928 to 1967 - when do we think Miss Lee went there? - but I agree that AR was not unready to play fast and loose with odd details in case of need, and also that the particular affectionate emphasis on Great Marlow is hard to explain except as a covert nod to a friend. But Miss Lee's affection for her school is central to the plot, and so the school must have had a name during the writing, even if changed during printing re Walpole. I'd been toying with the idea of a Great something-else school which AR altered, but lack the time for proper research.
Meanwhile, I agree with Magnus about AR's propensity for back-up research 'when he thought it important', and he may well have had schools for Susan/Titty and the As in mind but gives no clues in the books. Was it AR who said once that it was important for the writer to know one thing about a character that the reader doesn't know (and doesn't need to know)? Their schools may have fallen into this category. I wonder, incidentally, to which school Molly Blackett went? We may never know.......
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44396 - 01/10/19
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
The Sir William Borlase Grammar School in Great Marlow strikes me as a good candidate for Miss Lee’s school.

According to a report (http://www.¬buckinghamshirepartnership.¬co.uk/media¬/130576/¬marlow-_report.pdf):

‘Marlow’s most famous school in West Street was founded by Sir William Borlase School [sic], in 1624’. (p43)

‘The Borlase school is a seventeenth century charity school founded by Henry Borlase in 1624 and still in use as a grammar school. After a reorganisation by the charity commissioners and a major building programme, the school reopened as a boys' grammar school in 1881. After the 1902 Education Act, Buckinghamshire County Council was able to provide funds for further building and for scholarships. Girls were fully admitted to the school in 1988’. (p75)

The problem is that in say the 1920’s it was not co-ed. But as we know, Ransome altered facts as he wished; I myself have made a boys’ school co-ed in a novel to suit the plot.

The school (https://www.swbgs.com/) plays hockey among other sports. A former head boy describes the school as a ‘wonderful community of wacky and extraordinary individuals – a great place for young people to grow and be inspired’. In such company, the daughter of a successful Chinese pirate would not have been particularly conspicuous.

Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_William_Borlase%27s_Grammar_School) states that alumni include Hugh Walpole. Walpole (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Walpole) was at Cambridge. During the war Ransome lobbied for the establishment of a bureau in Moscow to counter German propaganda, and in 1916 Walpole was put in charge. Hugh Brogan describes how this led to a breach between Ransome and Walpole, which lasted for 16 years.

Walpole wrote a very favourable review of Peter Duck (published in 1932). Ransome wrote to Walpole: ‘Is this an olive branch?’ Walpole replied ‘A twig’, and the quarrel was over. Walpole had a house at Keswick in the Lake District, and Brogan records that Ransome visited Walpole to give him some trout a few weeks before he died on 1 June 1941.

Missee Lee was published in 1941, and in a letter of 13 August 1941 Ransome told a correspondent that it was being printed. I therefore wonder whether he added the pointed reference to Great Marlow, which is otherwise difficult to explain, as a covert nod towards Walpole just after Walpole died. Miss Lee was heading for Cambridge in at least February 1941, so this is not attributable to Walpole’s death. According to Brogan, Genia recorded that apart from Madame Sun Yat Sen, Miss Lee was based on a Chinese girl whom Ransome once met who yearned to go to Cambridge. If it was not for this it would have been more likely for Miss Lee to go to Oxford rather than Cambridge, since Oxford was so much closer to Great Marlow. She must have visited Oxford while at the school, and the reference to Cooper’s Marmalade suggests that she may have had breakfast there.


posted via 86.179.235.127 user RobinSelby.


message 44395 - 01/10/19
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
I want to follow up on recent comments that "[I] suspect that AR didn't give much thought at all to which schools the female Ss and As went to" and "I don’t know if Ransome had some private reason for naming [Great Marlow]".

AR was very particular in finding out details when he thought it important. You can read his letters to friends, and friends-of-friends, in Signalling To Mars researching the right background to give to the young Miss Lee.

He questions a friend about whether their son might have a book containing the Latin rhymes such as "Artifex and Opifex", and asks another friend if she recalls whether a female cox would take a rudder as a trophy, and which of the Cambridge colleges were likely to have such a rowing/classics student.

This was Feb 14th, 1941 in he book, if you want to look it up: letters to Margaret Reynold.

The research on rowing boat rudders is pretty thorough considering it never made it into the book (Chapter XIII is where you need to look). Instead we get one of my favourite quotes:

...a large photograph of a school hockey team...
"Pretty beefy," Roger murmured to himself.

posted via 81.156.118.67 user Magnus.


message 44394 - 01/10/19
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
The book is just a series of anecdotes from individuals reminiscing about their varied (hilarious/appalling) experiences at girls' boarding schools in the past, so isn't any sort of official history. I don't think any anecdotes came from Gleat Marlow. The only present Great Marlow is a co-ed day-school, established in 1961. Hmmm, a dead end....
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44393 - 01/09/19
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
Does this book have any information about Great Marlow? It must have been quite well known, or else Miss Lee wouldn’t have mentioned it (though any significance must have been lost on the younger readers). I don’t know if Ransome had some private reason for naming it.
posted via 86.174.65.80 user RobinSelby.
message 44392 - 01/09/19
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
I agree with all of that, Robin. There was a whole raft of private girls' boarding schools in the first half of the century, as partly detailed in Ysenda Maxtone-Graham's recent book Terms and Conditions. I think it was probably one of those, now defunct; perhaps a small school recommended by one of Molly Blackett's friends, or by a pal of Captain Flint re where his sisters went. Nancy seems to be complaining more about the academic pressures of school (AR's voice here) and the general restriction on freedom, rather than ranting about the particular nastiness of the teachers etc (see plenty of that in the above book); so it was school in general rather than the particular establishment that she objected to. Cue a monograph about 'Nancy at school' and the poor teachers' attempts to deal! Peggy probably got on OK, neither standing out or failing in class, and probably making a bunch of undemanding friends, though supporting Nancy and sympathising. (Someone, Peter Willis I think, suggests that Peggy went on to become a sailing instructor, which all fits)
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44391 - 01/09/19
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
Nancy strikes me as a natural for Dartington, since it had no rules, Latin or Greek. But I somehow can't see Mrs Blackett sending her there, and it's a bit far away.

posted via 86.174.65.80 user RobinSelby.
message 44390 - 01/09/19
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
I'm quite taken with my idea of Susan and Titty going to the Royal Naval School for girls (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Royal_School,_Haslemere); indeed Titty and my mother must have been about the same age. The school was at Twickenham until 1940, when the school was evacuated to Haslemere.
But where did the Amazons go? I feel that it wouldn't have been too far south - but from my brief researches girls' boarding schools today seem to cluster in the southern half of England, though things were very different before co-ed boarding started in the late 1960s. One thing is certain: it wasn't anywhere NEAR Harrogate, for reasons that I needn't explain....................... And it will have needed to be reachable by train from the Lake District. I thought of Merchant Taylor's Girls School, N of Liverpool, but Wikipedia tells me that Latin was taught there right from the start. Perhaps somewhere in Shropshire/ Herefordshire/ Gloucestershire; not Cheltenham Ladies', I somehow feel. But to be honest, I suspect that AR didn't give much thought at all to which schools the female Ss and As went to, as he didn't have personal knowledge. Research to be done as to where the Collingwood and Altounyan girls went to boarding school.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44389 - 01/08/19
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
John Wilson's comment about "an education beyond preparation to be a wife and mother" made me chuckle, because isn't that exactly what Missee Lee's father had chosen too?

Some pirate tycoons would have kept taking new wives until a son was born, and then handed the family business to him. But not old man Lee. He wants an education for his daughter AND for her to take on the leadership.
posted via 81.156.118.67 user Magnus.


message 44388 - 01/07/19
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
I did Greek for a year, at the far end of my school career in the 6th form. It finished because, as with Alan, there was only one teacher who knew ancient Greek and he left. I heaved a sigh of relief - it was the 'dual case' which ended my enthusiasm. I wouldn't like to have to explain that to the Amazons.
posted via 81.159.165.92 user Peter_H.
message 44387 - 01/07/19
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
Interesting Latin-related sidelight upon which schools the female Ss and As went to (boys' schools being on the whole more likely to teach Latin). So Susan and Titty went to a school which taught Latin (the younger Titty not starting yet); their parents - particularly perhaps their Australian mother - wanted their girls to have an education beyond preparation to be a wife and mother. Perhaps 'RNS' - the Royal Naval School, where my mother went in the 1930s and which had forward-looking ideas.
But unsurprisingly the rumbustious Amazons went to a perhaps more sport-oriented, outdoor-style school. (Nancy nevertheless hated it, but then she'd have hated any form of restraint) I have a feeling that it would have been in the North or Midlands - not Scotland or the south.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44386 - 01/06/19
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
So was I - seven or eight. I only started Greek when there was a serious chance of going for a scholarship exam at age 12. One of the teachers knew Greek, but it was special classes for me, never part of the regular curriculum.
posted via 86.147.61.103 user awhakim.
message 44385 - 01/06/19
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
I was learning Latin from the age of eight (1952).
posted via 88.105.91.194 user Mike_Jones.
message 44384 - 01/06/19
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
Missee Lee talks about "Latin first … Pelhaps Gleek next year or the year after that …." John was the only one who knew any Greek, the alphabet "wanted for mathematics" (ML14). And to Captain Flint "in five, ten years pelhaps, no one will guess you only went to Oxford" (ML16). She talks of her father saying "his daughter must have an English education …" a school in Hong Kong, then Gleat Marlow and Camblidge” . But in her first year there there she got a letter with only two words “Come home”. He was "a velly old man" and "velly ill".

The plot of ML depends on her working out from Roger’s addition to her book that "These persons are not thieves but students" (ML13). Roger is her top Latin student; John and Titty know some Latin but Susan, Nancy and Peggy are beginners. And Captain Flint an Oxford student has forgotten it (ML16). The plot of ML depends on Missee Lee wanting a class of students, and I would think the S&A’s are too young to have started Greek? Roger must be about ten (seven plus three) in ML, which seems young to be learning Latin?
posted via 203.96.137.228 user hugo.


message 44383 - 01/05/19
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
I don't have a copy of ML to hand, but wasn't there a suggestion that after Latin they would move on to include Greek?
posted via 92.16.97.49 user MartinH.
message 44382 - 01/04/19
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
Perhaps we might have a stab at reconstructing one of Miss Lee’s Greek tutorials?

The text was very probably from the Iliad. Miss Lee doubtless supported the Trojans, because their strategic position was similar to that of the Three Islands - they could prey on passing shipping, or tax them, as they wished. King Priam strongly reminded Miss Lee of her father.

The passage which Miss Lee set her class to translate may well have been the one where the Trojans are fighting by the ships. That is the nearest the Trojans get to throwing the Achaeans back into the sea - the equivalent of endlessly watching The Great Escape, in the hope of one day seeing Steve McQueen jumping over the third fence.

Since they are all starting from scratch, Roger is not necessarily the star pupil. This gives an opportunity for one of the quieter ones to shine. Congratulations, Peggy.


posted via 86.159.175.23 user RobinSelby.


message 44381 - 01/02/19
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
I hadn't spotted you were the author of that article, probably because it was covering the same ground as one of 1993. Moss arrived while I was on holiday, and it's stuck in the 'pending' pile, even though I took time out after the Christmas cards to do the index. I must try to read the actual text.
At Cambridge in the dim and distant past, Latin and Greek was 'Classics', and Latin or Greek with another language was 'Modern and Medieval Languages'. The most popular combinations were Latin and French, Greek and German.
So I think Miss Lee would have done Greek. She certainly couldn't get away with only one language.
posted via 86.147.61.45 user awhakim.
message 44380 - 01/01/19
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
I looked through ‘Ransome in China’ for my Mixed Moss article on the location of Miss Lee’s islands, but I do not recall that it shed any light on how Ransome hit on the Latin idea.

I see from Hugh Brogan’s biography that Ransome had some dealings with Waugh’s father early on, but no mention of Evelyn. I’ve only read bits of the letters, so I don’t know if there’s anything helpful there. The idea that Ransome got the idea from Waugh is amusing, but alas I don’t know of anything to support it.

Kennedy’s Primer has certainly had a good innings. My son studies it while I drive him to school.

Incidentally, would Miss Lee have studied Greek at Cambridge? In my time at Oxford, I think you had to do both Greek and Latin, and perhaps the same held good at the junior university. If so, I am sorry that we never got the chance to see Miss Lee coaching her pupils in Greek.

posted via 86.170.231.38 user RobinSelby.


message 44379 - 01/01/19
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
BBC Radio 4 yesterday broadcast Amo Amas Amusical, a half-hour about Kennedy's Revised Latin Primer, how the revision was mainly done by his daughters, who weren't supposed to get an education in those days, and how they developed the gender rhymes, which the cast sang to Victorian Hymn Tunes.
Regrettably, no mention of Miss Lee.
If you missed it, it is scheduled to be repeated on Sunday January 13 at 13.30, or you can (if you live in the right country?) catch up on the BBC website.
posted via 86.147.61.110 user awhakim.
message 44378 - 12/31/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
Perhaps Miss Lee was subconsciously seeking a father figure to replace Mr. Lee Senior, and concocted the Larin teaching scheme to keep Captain Flint with her.
posted via 88.105.91.194 user Mike_Jones.
message 44377 - 12/31/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
Perhaps Miss Lee was subconsciously seeking a father figure to replace Mr. Lee Senior, and concocted the Larin teaching scheme to keep Captain Flint with her.
posted via 88.105.91.194 user Mike_Jones.
message 44376 - 12/30/18
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
As for AR's view of Miss Lee, a lot of the book is drawn from his own visit to China in 1927. See Ransome in China, in the TARS Library, for a lot of background.
posted via 86.147.61.26 user awhakim.
message 44375 - 12/29/18
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: Miss Lee and Latin
Ah, Waugh's 'A Handful of Dust'.
To me it had always seemed to be a bit of an AR schoolboy joke - 'What would be the worst fate that you could possibly imagine? Being condemned to daily Latin classes for ever and ever and ever'. (Perhaps he had come across a schoolchild complaining about the it) It seems that Miss Lee had - in the face of her unsatisfactory present life - become obsessed with rose-coloured memories of her Cambridge days. So she justified her action by recalling that [I could be wrong - need to re-read] her father had wished her to become educated, focusing on the classes and closing her eyes to his probable displeasure at the disruption and danger to the Thlee Islands.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44374 - 12/29/18
From: Robin Selby, subject: Miss Lee and Latin
I have forgotten, if I ever knew, how Ransome got the idea that Miss Lee would keep her ‘guests’ indefinitely and teach them Latin. Presumably it was something to do with the character of Madame Sun Yat Sen, but so far as I can see she had nothing to do with Cambridge.

But I do wonder if Waugh’s ‘The Man Who Liked Dickens’ played any part. Tony Last is kept prisoner in the Amazon jungle by a lunatic who forces him to read the works of Dickens.

There are obvious parallels, which may cast some light on Miss Lee’s mental state. By any rational calculation the detention of the ‘guests’ was not fair to them or their families, and gave rise to dangerous instability in the eyes of the Taicoons. Yet Miss Lee managed to convince herself that her father would be pleased. This irrational belief underlines the sacrifice she made in leaving Cambridge, but leaves one to wonder what effect it had on her mental health.
posted via 178.197.231.154 user RobinSelby.


message 44373 - 12/26/18
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: Literary Transactions
Thanks, Dave and Alan - that's a good point about 'permissions' for online publication - should have thought of that, given my academic background. Perhaps in the future, a box to tick for contributors to the Lit Weekend, agreeing to dissemination online - which I hope and trust that many contributors will tick, if they're not planning on developing a lucrative book from their piece (though of course yay if they were!). I certainly think that wider availability of literary pieces (of which there are many unsung in TARS) would encourage interested individuals, as in recent posts, to pay their shilling (well, a bit more) to TARS to assist in more literary output.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44372 - 12/26/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Literary Transactions
As far as putting the Literary Transactions online at ATR (or indeed anywhere else): the Copyright Statement in the last Transactions I have handy says

"Copryight remains that of individual speakers and other appropriate copyright holders, from whom permission to quote has been obtained. Permissions to reproduce in whole or in part in any what should be sought care of the editor..."

If this is still the way copyright reproduction permission is still represented, then to post the Transactions online (or any part of it) would require both permission from all individual copyright holders, plus the editor of the Literary Transactions. The statement doesn't make it clear as to whether the editor could grant permission without separately obtaining permissions from the copyright owners.

Independently of its appearing in the Literary Transactions, an individual could grant permission to ATR (or elsewhere) to post their article, and this has been done before.

There may of course be other issues unrelated to the copyright permissions or devolving from them that I haven't considered.


posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 44371 - 12/25/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Seasons Greetings!
And season's greetings to you.
posted via 88.105.91.194 user Mike_Jones.
message 44370 - 12/25/18
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Literary Transactions
I don't know, and Paul, who does, is incommunicado in his new address with no broadband. But I believe the Transactions for year A are only written up as part of the preparations for year B.
This saves a lot of postage, which reduces the cost of the weekend. We used to send them out as soon as all the scripts had been agreed with the speakers, a few months after the event.
posted via 81.146.16.21 user awhakim.
message 44369 - 12/25/18
From: wdmtgts, subject: Literary Transactions
Alan, is there a (copyright etc) reason why the Transactions can't be available online, e.g. on ATR? for those who for good reasons can't get to the Lit. Weekends (and specifically to the Lit. Weekend after a Weekend featuring a subject of interest, if as you say, the Transactions are handed out at the next one).

posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44368 - 12/25/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Seasons Greetings!
Hope you all have a good day. A sunny, frosty morning here in Secret Water country!
posted via 95.149.37.216 user MTD.
message 44367 - 12/24/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Discussion of TARS and its affairs
Thank you Peter for reminding people that it has been a long standing policy that TARS internal affairs should not be discussed on TarBoard. The discussion to date has been friendly and informative but we have unfortunately seen that things can deteriorate quickly and cause offence.

Please respect this policy and enjoy your Christmas pudding without the inflammable methylated spirits leaving a bad taste in your mouth.
posted via 99.240.138.46 user Adam.


message 44366 - 12/24/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Mrs. Walker in Australia
Thanks Alan, I've yet to re-read the article but hope to over the festive period.

Yes, it would be interesting to discuss it further so if you would like to contact me please use this address

everyone.this-house@outlook.com

(and anyone else who wants to discuss things in more depth or beyond the remit of this forum!)
posted via 95.149.37.216 user MTD.


message 44365 - 12/23/18
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Mrs. Walker in Australia
Thanks very much, Mike, for finding the articles. I've dug out that 1998 issue, and the amazing thing is that those articles could have been written today. I was well into my Treasurer stint by then, and I suppose the reason I had forgotten the articles was that they remain so relevant. Peter and I still discuss these subjects from time to time.
What then has developed in the last 20 years? First, we have lost a lot of members, and though there is a steady trickle of new ones, many of them drop out quite soon.
Also, the majority of the new members are on the Venture Scouts wing. TARS' Publishing wing, Amazon Publications, produces AR-related books, financed by advance subscriptions. Of the subscribers for this year's book, 36 had joined in the first two years of TARS. The 36 most recent members subscribing covered an 11-year period back to 2008. That shows that literary-minded members are thinner on the ground now.
The Moss articles mention the Literary Transactions, the record of the Literary Weekends. Regrettably, these have become less prominent, being produced only in time to be given out at the next Weekend, two years after the talks were delivered. I doubt that many members not attending the Weekends are aware of them.
I could go on, as I did at Board meetings, but that would probably be unwise in this forum. Feel free to contact me directly.
posted via 86.144.242.135 user awhakim.
message 44364 - 12/23/18
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Mrs. Walker in Australia
It never occurred to me that people might think you needed to be rich to sail dinghies. ‘Ordinary Families’ by E Arnot Robertson is set in Pin Mill before the war. The narrator’s family sails dinghies and yachts, but have very little money.

Maurice Griffith’s ‘The Magic of the Swatchways’ is a pre-war book about sailing on the East Coast. Husband and wife both sail yachts, but the interesting thing is that they both sail their own yachts, and rarely sail together. Griffiths was a journalist, so cannot have earned much. The books give the clear impression that you could keep a yacht at very reasonable cost, and a fortiori if you could keep a yacht you could keep a dinghy.
posted via 178.197.231.253 user RobinSelby.


message 44363 - 12/23/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Mrs. Walker in Australia
Good point Peter, I hadn't realised it was that long ago

In fairness, I had been considering joining TARS before this discussion started. I feel AR's status as a writer needs maintaining, and really enthusiastic readers such ourselves are getting older (and dare I say fewer) so we need younger adult readers to ensure his achievement does not become nothing more than a foot-note in studies of children's books.

AR was and is so much more than that.
posted via 95.149.37.216 user MTD.


message 44362 - 12/22/18
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Mrs. Walker in Australia
As the author of one of the articles which Mike refers to, I hope I can make a very brief comment. As Mike points out, the articles were published in 1998 - 20 years ago! A lot has happened in TARS since then. I cannot enlarge on this, as TARS internal affairs are off-limits for this forum. However, as to the current situation I would recommend that Mike should heed what Alan Hakim is saying. Alan has always had his finger on the TARS literary pulse.
posted via 86.132.92.13 user Peter_H.
message 44361 - 12/22/18
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: Nancy's Grandfather
SE Asia, I'd think. SW Asia ports are in Israel/Palestine, Lebanon, and e.g. Basra. I see Natimves as somewhere on the E coast of Malaysia, or on one of the Indonesian islands. The GA probably went there in her other persona.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44360 - 12/22/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Nancy's Grandfather
Oops. "Natives". Not sure what "Natimves" might be, perhaps a minor port in SW Asia?
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 44359 - 12/22/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Nancy's Grandfather
Peter's "Missing Natimves" article:
http://allthingsransome.net/literary/ransomesmissingnatives.html

posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 44358 - 12/22/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Mrs. Walker in Australia
I've found the relevant issue, but firstly apologies for the typos in my previous post!

It was in 'Mixed Moss' Volume Three, Number Three, Summer 1998. Two pieces entitled 'The TARS Voyage' one by Peter Hyland 'Where Now?' and a response by Christina Hardyment and Dick Kelsall 'Forward!'. Page 25.
posted via 95.149.37.216 user MTD.


message 44357 - 12/21/18
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Nancy's Grandfather
" Ransome has killed off so many of the parents and grandparents."

Yes indeed, and he usually substituted uncles. If anyone is interested, I have written an article on the Missing Native Parents - it can be found online on the Lit Pages of All Things Ransome.
posted via 86.132.92.13 user Peter_H.


message 44356 - 12/21/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Mrs. Walker in Australia
I'll have a look through my back issues, but I was very interested when I read because of my own feelings as to why I hadn't joined (in case anyone is wonder I have acquired most of the issues through e-bay.)
posted via 95.149.37.216 user MTD.
message 44355 - 12/21/18
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Mrs. Walker in Australia
That's interesting. I don't remember it - and I was seven years on the Board, loudly regretting this problem.
There's no obvious reference to a survey in the Moss index. No doubt it was under some whimsical title. Can you remember?
posted via 86.144.242.250 user awhakim.
message 44354 - 12/21/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Mrs. Walker in Australia
I'm well aware of the literary activities, but seem to remember some years ago the results of a membership survey in 'Mixed Moss' where my view was expressed by a significant number of members (and as a reason why some wouldn't renew their membership.)
posted via 95.149.37.216 user MTD.
message 44353 - 12/21/18
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Mrs. Walker in Australia
Even clearer in 'Swallowdale' page 81: "Swallow belonged to the Jacksons at Holly Howe"."
posted via 86.132.92.13 user Peter_H.
message 44352 - 12/21/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Mrs. Walker in Australia
Mary Walker is off an Australian sheep station, but might not be the daughter of the owner as the stations were big enough to have a large staff. That is the message of Neville Shute’s "Requeim for a Wren"; the Wren thinks that it will be a come-down for a middle-class girl to marry an Australian farmer (a sort of peasant?) but finds that he was the heir to a large sheep empire with a small village for staff. And the head of the empire did not necessarily own the land: "Squattocracy" was the term for the rural Australian elite on leased or occupied land. The same as New Zealand e.g. with the Riddifords of the Wairarapa on leased Maori land.

"We of the Never Never" is a classic autobiographical novel published in 1908 about a cattle station in the Northern Territory but remote from Darwin.

The ownership of "Swallow" is clear in PP2: "when your mother comes to Holly Howe and you have Swallow again"

posted via 202.154.148.174 user hugo.


message 44351 - 12/21/18
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: Mrs. Walker in Australia
Yes, I should indeed have added that I'm a member of TARS who doesn't do camping and sailing but does do literary.....
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44350 - 12/21/18
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Mrs. Walker in Australia
Believe it or not, Mike, alongside the Camping/Sailing ones there are TARS members who are interested in AR's writing. If you did join, you could come to the Literary Weekend next September and meet the kindred spirits. I just wish there were more of them.
posted via 86.144.242.250 user awhakim.
message 44349 - 12/21/18
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: Mrs. Walker in Australia
Quite right - I got slightly tangled up in that sentence and should either have adjusted the punctuation (to 'among non-TARS who haven't read S&A properly, unlike us lot, that the Swallows...') or simply written 'among people who haven't read S&A properly....'.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44348 - 12/21/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Mrs. Walker in Australia
Hold on there - I'm a "non-TARS" and have read all the books properly over fifty odd years, as my contributions to 'All Things Ransome' show!

(For the record, joining TARS has never appealed to me as I'm interested in the books not actually going camping or sailing!)
posted via 95.149.37.216 user MTD.


message 44347 - 12/20/18
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: Mrs. Walker in Australia
There is a book set in 19th-century society in inland Australia which uses the plot of a famous English novel - a Jane Austen one?? I forget. The 'graziers' - the great land-owning families - were the pinnacle of society in the towns, and certainly had elegant dances. And then there's the excellent film 'My Brilliant Career' and its depiction of the Australian middle classes early in the 20th century.
As for children at boarding school when parents were working abroad, I was one of those children myself for a time, and my father's firm (as did the Forces) did pay significantly towards the cost - my parents had no private income. Overseas postings generally (particularly hardship ones) offered higher salaries too.
This is probably not the thread in which to bring up the persisting perception among non-TARS (who haven't read S&A properly, unlike us lot) that the Swallows owned a sailing-boat so were well-off. We all know that they didn't, and although they were certainly middle-class and comfortable enough financially, their holiday was a modest one, as PGs in a farmhouse in a rural area.
This is all definitely one for a collaborative paper......
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44346 - 12/20/18
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Mrs. Walker in Australia
My knowledge of Australian pastoral matters comes solely from the novels of Trollope and Nevil Shute, with echoes of ‘Flying Doctor calling Wollumboola Base’, but I get the idea that sheep stations are on a massive scale, can be very profitable if they have good water, and are isolated and a bit rough. Ransome’s reference to dances is a nice softening touch. Surely Ransome, not an ungenerous man, would have endowed Mrs Walker’s father’s sheep station with a plentiful supply of water. Moreover the price of wool rose during the 1920’s. Thus it follows as night follows day that Mrs Walker’s father was the elder brother who inherited the main asset, while the inheritance of his younger brother – the one who lived in Sydney - was much less valuable, perhaps an agency or some such.

During the holidays, it might be an interesting task to calculate Cdr Walker’s private income. Today it costs about £35K a year to maintain a child at a public school, or £140K for four minus discounts for siblings. However, in recent years public schools have increased their fees much faster than inflation, so fees in the 1930’s would have been lower relative to income. Doubtless the Navy made a significant contribution to costs of education, but perhaps this was only when Cdr Walker was serving abroad. In all probability costs were higher than Cdr Walker’s pay, and the excess could only come out of unearned income. If so, Ransome must have killed off Cdr Walker’s parents so that he could come into his inheritance early. Or alternatively Mrs Walker brought a handsome dowry with her.


posted via 86.170.231.106 user RobinSelby.


message 44345 - 12/19/18
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Nancy's Grandfather
If you have an article on the stocks, the TARS Literary Weekend in September is the ideal place for it. See the new issue of "Signals".
posted via 81.141.206.16 user awhakim.
message 44344 - 12/18/18
From: wdmtgts, subject: Mrs. Walker in Australia
On the sailing-dinghy front, AR may have wanted to convey that Mrs. Walker was of good family but not massively wealthy (so sailing her better-off cousin's boat during time in Sydney). I like to think of AR writing the anecdote originally as 'my dinghy', then adding 'cousin's' for this reason.
And I wonder whether she met Lt Cdr Walker while sailing her cousin's boat? Naval officers to this day are often enthusiastic dinghy-sailors, and Lt Cdr Walker might well have gravitated to Sydney Yacht Club during time ashore. A British Naval friend of mine really did meet the Australian girl who became his wife at an event in Sydney (though I admit that I don't know whether it was sailing-related); and two other Naval friends met their wives through sailing.
All merry speculation!

posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44343 - 12/17/18
From: Jon, subject: Re: Nancy's Grandfather
It seems the logical explanation for the Sydney/sheep station conflict would be that the family of the young lady who became Mrs. Walker lived on a sheep station, but she was sent to Sydney to attend school where she stayed with her cousins during the academic year.

But then

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson

posted via 98.218.103.166 user Jon.
message 44342 - 12/17/18
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Nancy's Grandfather
Surely the most likely direction is from the sheep station to Sydney. A city dweller moving to a sheep station sounds like a recipe for bankruptcy. The problem about X years at the sheep station and Y years at Sydney is that both the episodes about the horse finding its way back after a dance and capsizing a dinghy in Sydney harbour sound more like teens than pre-teens. It is difficult to reconcile the two.

Incidentally, why was the future Mrs Walker sailing her cousin’s dinghy and not her own? Had her father (let us call him Fred) left the city for a sheep station where he lost all his money? That is why she set her cap at the dashing Lt Cdr Walker in his natty two-seater, who was independently wealthy and came from a good family (‘one of the Hampshire Walkers, you know’).

I can easily see Ransome inventing the Oxford story to get some Oxford/Cambridge tension going, regardless of any other story about Captain Flint’s background. This strikes me as a more natural explanation than Ransome thinking to himself ‘aha, this is meta fiction so I don’t have to bother about consistency’.

A genealogy would look a bit thin, since Ransome has killed off so many of the parents and grandparents.

I’d be happy for the article to appear in ATR or Mixed Moss, if anyone wants to publish it.



posted via 86.179.132.212 user RobinSelby.


message 44341 - 12/16/18
From: Duncan, subject: Re: Nancy's Grandfather
A Swallows and Amazons genealogy might be fun...
posted via 151.226.11.4 user Duncan.
message 44340 - 12/16/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Nancy's Grandfather
Having given this some thought, the references in ML can be questioned as it is a meta-fiction which enabled AR to play around with 'facts' to suit the plot.

In the other books he always seemed to write as if an observer, adding in background information where it wasn't clear from the exchanges between the characters.
posted via 95.149.37.216 user MTD.


message 44339 - 12/15/18
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: Nancy's Grandfather
Yes, as Magnus says, I don't see a problem with growing up in Sydney and on a sheep station. And certainly about ship's 'boys' - there are various accounts by writers of meandering around the world including taking passage on merchant ships, almost certainly doing a ship's boy's job.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44338 - 12/15/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Nancy's Grandfather
All very interesting. I like the analysis of potential dates.

Regarding Australia, there's no reason why the future Mrs Walker could not have lived for 5 or 10 years as a child on the shores of Sydney Harbour, and then the whole family moved to a sheep station further inland for the next 5 or 10 years. Or vice versa.

Captain Flint's comment about being a ships boy could perhaps be interpreted as: he was the youngest or most inferior member of the crew, and got all the worst jobs, despite not being a 'boy' in age. Maybe he worked on a large cargo ship where all the staff were adults, in a 'dogsbody' capacity, to pay for his trip - say, escaping to South Africa aged 20 after chucking Oxford.
posted via 81.156.115.204 user Magnus.


message 44337 - 12/15/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Nancy's Grandfather
When Jim Turner meets Dick on his return from South America he says "Gold or silver. I’ve sworn off both of them" and "Gold … who wants it if there’s enough of this (copper) about" although Dick does not take the hint that he is interested in copper! And of course he dismisses Slater Bob’s story about the young man going off to WWI after discovering gold as a "story" or myth; probably the same as Slater Bob’s father or grandfather told about the South African, Zulu or Crimean Wars! (PP33). The books in his study are about "geography, chemistry, mining and such things" so do not appeal to Dorothea (WH8) .

And I agree that the Blacketts are gentry and comfortably off; having a car (even smallish and ancient) and a telephone like Tommy Jolys - the local farmers like Mrs Tyson are not "on the line". And Jim went to Oxford, presumably not on a scholarship.

posted via 202.154.150.235 user hugo.


message 44336 - 12/14/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Nancy's Grandfather
All Things Ransome would certainly be interested in such a monograph. And there's no reason it couldn't appear in MM and on ATR given the author's permission.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 44335 - 12/14/18
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: Nancy's Grandfather
I see a Mixed Moss piece - or perhaps a monograph on All Things Ransome - coming on. A timeline would be very useful, for discussion both serious and frivolous.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44334 - 12/13/18
From: David Chorley, subject: Re: Well done Roger

Cromolyn stabilizes mast cells which are the agents of histamine release in the type 2 delayed hypersensitivity reaction. As with many things in human existence, there are fashions in medicine, and asthma is generally treated with short acting beta agonists- salbutamol, or albuterol if you are in the usa, and salmetrol, a long acting beta agonist plus an inhaled steroid. Intal was a brief favourite. Admittedly there are niche products that have cromolyn, but the possibility that it may delay or prevent Alzheimer's is a Christmas present for the world
posted via 166.137.118.86 user chollox.
message 44333 - 12/13/18
From: Robin Selby, subject: Nancy's Grandfather
In Pigeon Post (p43), Slater Bob tells Nancy that ‘…yer mother’s father took me wi’ him when he went to Africa after that same stuff’. ‘Same stuff’ is of course gold. Pigeon Post was mainly written in 1935. Slater Bob tells the explorers (p41) that he ‘were a lad in the mines nigh sixty years since’. If ‘lad’ means 14 and ‘nigh sixty years’ means say 58 years, then Slater Bob is 72 years old and was born in 1863. We know that James Turner and Molly Turner and her future husband climbed the Matterhorn (later Kanchenjunga) in 1901. By that time their father and mother (Nancy’s grandparents) had died, and they were being brought up by the Great Aunt (Swallowdale, p335). We do not know how old they were, but there is a general sense that when Nancy and Peggy climbed Kanchenjunga in 1931, they happened to recreate the climb their parents and Captain Flint made in 1901 when they were the same age, say 14. So let us say that Captain Flint or his sister were born in 1887. This means that the elder Mr Turner was born in 1865 or earlier.

The Witwatersrand gold rush started in 1886, when Mr Turner was 21 or so, and Slater Bob was 23. We hypothesise therefore that Mr Turner took Slater Bob to South Africa some time after 1886, with Mr Turner (or his father) putting up the money and Slater Bob bringing his mining experience.

Captain Flint and his sister are ‘comfortably off’. Mrs Blackett lives in a large house with one or two servants, sends her daughters to boarding school and is a member of the local gentry (Colonel Jolys takes his hat off to her). Equally Captain Flint does not work, and spends much of his time abroad, either escaping the English winter or in the vain search for mineral wealth.

However, there is no sense that they are rich, as they would have been if their father and Slater Bob had prospered in South Africa. Mr Turner and Slater Bob returned to England because they did not find gold. This leads to the intriguing possibility that Captain Flint spends (I am tempted to say ‘wastes’) his life looking for gold because he is trying to achieve what his father had failed to achieve.

Ransome occasionally gives biographical hints about his adult characters. For example, in Swallowdale, at the summit of Kanchenjunga, the explorers find a message from Nancy’s deceased father, her mother and uncle, written in the same jaunty style which Nancy might have used. When Nancy introduced Captain Flint to Roger (Swallows and Amazons, p277), Captain Flint said that he had been a ship’s boy. However, he told Miss Lee (Missee Lee, p213) that he ‘chucked Oxford before Oxford made up its mind to chuck me. I went off to see the world instead’. This strongly implies that he had not left home before, and in any case it is scarcely probable that he was a ship’s boy before going to Oxford. It is unlikely that he was pulling Roger’s leg. It is more likely that Ransome wanted to introduce some Oxford/Cambridge tension into the story, and either forgot or ignored the earlier account.

In Swallows and Amazons (p27) Mrs Walker said that she was brought up close to Sydney Harbour. Yet in the same book (p191), she told Titty ‘about her own childhood on a sheep station in Australia’. There are anecdotes in other books which are consistent with both Sydney and the sheep station:

‘Why, when I was a girl in Australia I’ve often fallen asleep on horseback, riding home after a dance, and been waked by the horse stopping and snuffing at the stable door.’ (We Didn’t Mean To Go To Sea, p30)

‘She [Mrs Walker] talked about fishing and about caves and about camping in the Australian bush…’ (Swallowdale, p206)

‘“I thought just the same,” said mother, “when I capsized my cousin’s dinghy in Sydney Harbour”.’ (Swallowdale, p116)

I suppose it is always possible that the family had a house in Sydney as well as the sheep station, but that seems a bit elaborate.

The question is whether Ransome did this deliberately, to intrigue his readers, or whether he simply wished to add a bit of realistic detail and colour. There can be no doubt that the episode at the top of Kanchenjunga was quite deliberate. It is a poignant moment when Nancy reads the message, one of the few times when she is almost at a loss for words.

However, the inconsistencies in the other biographical details suggest that Ransome merely wished to add colour, and had no concern beyond this. If so, it is a matter for judgment whether Slater Bob’s remark falls into the same category as the Kanchenjunga episode, or is just colour. Since it is a one-liner which is easily overlooked, it is probably colour.


posted via 86.176.200.164 user RobinSelby.


message 44332 - 12/12/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Well done Roger
...cromolyn is pretty much not used in medicine right now

It is certainly available as eyedrops for allergies -- Cromolyn Sodium Ophthalmic Solution (Crolom and Opticrom are brand names). Been using it since 1985 by Rx.

posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 44331 - 12/12/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Newspaper Headline!
In today's (12th Dec) Business Section of the 'The Times' there is this headliine -

"Few swallow latest talk of Morrisons and Amazon"

The report by Louisa Clarence-Smith details how the online marketplace is looking for a UK supermarket to takeover, a number have been mentioned and yesterday it was the Morrisons group.
posted via 2.30.186.61 user MTD.


message 44330 - 12/12/18
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: The secret life of the GA Pt II
Yes, I like it. Or a wine-maker, or a casino-owner......
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44329 - 12/12/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: The secret life of the GA Pt II
What if the GA went to check on Jim Turner in South America, or perhaps got him a job with one of the British firms in South America running railroads or ranches. And the GA met a gaucho (cowboy) or preferably a ranch owner ...

Jim had been ''sent to South America as a young man after "chucking Oxford"'' (SA11). He ''chucked Oxford before Oxford made up its mind to chuck me'' (ML16).


posted via 202.154.144.20 user hugo.


message 44328 - 12/11/18
From: Chollox, subject: Re: Well done Roger
I know, you are right: it is, however, jolly good that Roger's observational and scientific skills continue to help people, even though cromolyn is pretty much not used in medicine right now
posted via 98.22.139.154 user chollox.
message 44327 - 12/11/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Well done Roger
Although Roger Altounyan discovered cromoglicic acid, he only used it for asthma treatment. It is these modern researchers who seem to have discovered the possibility of Alzheimer's treatment. Not to take credit away from the ship's boy but to make sure that the right people are credited for the right treatment.
posted via 99.240.138.46 user Adam.
message 44326 - 12/10/18
From: Chollox, subject: Well done Roger
It seems that the ship's boy has discovered a treatment for Alzheimer's
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-19641-2?fbclid=IwAR3oolQubih70v1Z1KdlVmCOdHbUEXSNOXx2gpbJJ9Joj01q1VWs5GNFIio
posted via 98.22.139.154 user chollox.
message 44325 - 12/08/18
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: The secret life of the GA Pt II
Indeed I do know that 'Miss Turner' is often mentioned, and perhaps I should have said 'who didn't have a husband'. Or perhaps we should assume nothing, in this murky tale: the guileless Mary may know nothing of her secret marriage to a glamorous Argentine .....
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44324 - 12/07/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: The secret life of the GA Pt II
Well possibly a dashing mysterious man or woman in her past, but in PM chapter 29 the GA is called Miss or Miss Turner by Colonel Jolys, Cook, the sergeant of police and Sammy the policeman. Also by Jacky and Dorothea in chapter 26, and in chapter 23 Mary Swainson thinks to herself that "Miss Turner, poor old thing, had never married at all."


posted via 202.154.152.219 user hugo.


message 44323 - 12/06/18
From: wdmtgts, subject: The secret life of the GA Pt II
(Starting a new thread as previous one had become longer than the GA's knitting-wool) My grandmother had a most adventurous life, accompanying her merchant-sailor husband on trips to S America and during his years as a Colonial officer in Nigeria in the 1920s/30s; but when he died she retired to the UK and became very stuffy and GA-ish. I remember on visits to her having to dress properly, and being given some elastic and sewing kit and made to spend the afternoon making sock-garters - all sounding a bit familiar? I'm not sure what message that has for us about the GA, who presumably didn't have a husband - or perhaps there was a dashing, mysterious man (or, heavens, a woman), and when all that ended she went to the opposite extreme on an 'if I can't have fun any more no-one else can' basis.

posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44322 - 12/03/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: The secret life of the GA
It hasn't been on general release here in Canada and I haven't bought the DVD either. Though I do admit to have gleaned some snippets of the plot changes from posting here and elsewhere.
I am just naturally bad.
posted via 99.240.138.46 user Adam.
message 44321 - 12/03/18
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: The secret life of the GA
Own up, you are all secret addicts of it!
Perish the thought. We weren't even asked to be consultants to the plot-updaters.
posted via 86.148.64.245 user awhakim.
message 44320 - 12/03/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: The secret life of the GA
Entertaining though this speculation is, it is difficult to deny the pernicious influence of the Captain Flint espionage plot in the recent Swallows and Amazons film. Own up, you are all secret addicts of it!
posted via 92.18.218.99 user Mike_Jones.
message 44319 - 12/03/18
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: The secret life of the GA
Mr Farland’s nom de guerre is an audacious play on his country of birth – Fa [the] rland. And surely Mrs McGinty’s brogue cannot be real.

While focussing on the East Coast, we should not overlook the strategic significance of the Harwich naval base. As we have learned to expect by now, it comes with a hospital complete with doctors at Felixstowe on the north side of the harbour. Jim did well to get out before worse befell him.

But surely no one could suspect anything of Miss Powell? It must be sheer coincidence that she lives almost exactly where MTB’s etc were based during the war.

posted via 86.174.65.9 user RobinSelby.


message 44318 - 12/02/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: The secret life of the GA
Another probable East Anglian connection is through the medical men. The doctor's collaboration with the GA could be assisted by the notorious Dr Dudgeon whose hobby of fishing is an obvious ploy to allow him to waste time innocently while observing the river traffic. It is well known from The Riddle of the Sands (found in Captain Flint's houseboat) that Norfolk was a prime location for an invasion of England.
posted via 99.240.138.46 user Adam.
message 44317 - 12/02/18
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: The secret life of the GA
Ha - an East Anglian link. One for Eastern Region to investigate - or perhaps not.................
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44316 - 12/02/18
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: The secret life of the GA
We seem to have overlooked the fact that Miss Huskisson had an unfortunate early marriage, leading to divorce after her son was born. Custody went to the father, a Mr Owdon.
posted via 86.148.64.202 user awhakim.
message 44315 - 12/01/18
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: The secret life of the GA
I have also had my eye on the doctor for some time. Note how the GA summons him immediately upon her arrival.
As for Squashy Hat..... Nancy had him bang to rights after all, and it was only fast thinking on Capt. Flint's part, as to the dubious wisdom of drastic action, that saved her from being Kashoggi'd.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44314 - 12/01/18
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: The secret life of the GA
I have been toying with the idea that the GA went to school at Great Marlow and then to Newnham College at Cambridge. So far as I am aware there is no documentation to support this, simply the idea that when Ransome needed a school and a college for Miss Lee, he took the ones nearest to hand, viz those which the GA actually attended.

This theory explains why her nephew Jim went to Oxford rather than Cambridge, as a reaction against the GA. He must have been a source of great anxiety and self-reproach to the GA in his rackety earlier years.

Adam Quinan is quite right to draw attention to Cook. She bears the classic signs of a highly trained and experienced operative working under deep cover. Her name is clearly based on the village of Braithwaite to the west of Keswick, in an attempt to give her local colour.

We can draw reasonable conclusions about her role and spymaster. Lenin may have embedded her in the local community to foment insurgency in a politically sensitive area which could easily trigger revolution in the rest of the country. Her secondary role would be to maintain surveillance on Ransome and Evgenia. Evgenia had been Trotsky’s secretary, and after Trotsky was exiled in 1929, it was clearly imperative for the Soviets to ensure that she was not collaborating with Trotsky.

Or it may be that the GA maintained her association with Naval Intelligence after the war, to the extent that a Foreign Power wanted to keep her under close observation. This implies that she was a very high value asset, because a similar watch would have been necessary on her Harrogate establishment.

Finally, it is possible that there is more to Mrs Blackett than meets the eye. With a respectable and respected position in society, Mrs Blackett was ideally placed to gather vital intelligence on the Vickers ship building site at Barrow on behalf of a Foreign Power. This enables us to reinterpret Jim Turners’s role. He clearly acted as a courier for his sister, under the perfect cover of a restless quest for gold. In this case it is probable that Cook was working for MI5.


posted via 86.169.42.147 user RobinSelby.


message 44313 - 11/30/18
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: The secret life of the GA
Adam Quinan, quite right that we haven't explored 'Cook', who has all the signs of an experienced subversive, slipping food to anyone operating under the radar. And Robin Selby (who's to know whether that's his real name?) provides excellent depth to the Ransome/Huskisson/Turner back-story. What had William Huskisson done to deserve his demise at the hands of his sister and of AR's great-grandfather? Could a Turner forebear have been involved? These are deep waters......
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44312 - 11/30/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character & Mr Farland!
Equipped with the new evidence which has come to light, we can now see the most amusing parts of Swallowdale and The Picts And The Martyrs are when Cook threatens to give notice over Miss Turner's tyrannical domination of the household.

Cook has to fake all these outbursts, of course, lest the secret of their deep friendship be known. During the period where they both posed as men to join the war effort, 'Bobby' Braithwaite was Captain Turner's loyal batman.

I am lead to believe their excellent ability to disguise themselves as washer-women meant they were selected for several spying missions deep into enemy territory.
posted via 81.156.115.204 user Magnus.


message 44311 - 11/30/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character & Mr Farland!
Another point which may explain how Ransome knew the GA's secrets is that his great grandfather John Ransome, was one of the surgeons who were rushed by the other train, Northumbrian, also under trial to the site of Mr Huskisson's 'accident'. Unfortunately for the MP, they were unable (or unwilling?) to save him.
posted via 99.240.138.46 user Adam.
message 44310 - 11/29/18
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: The secret life of the GA
Oho, we start to sift through the GA evidence; I understand that there are classified papers linking Miss Turner's lauded Harrogate refuge with Mrs Christie, to which you have evidently cleverly obtained access. Incidentally, did Nancy perhaps (SD) abstract the crossbow (there has been discussion of its provenience) from the GA's portmanteau, she never travelling unarmed after her Belgian experiences? Certainly her habits and demeanour point to post-traumatic stress disorder, featuring a desperate desire to return to an orderly past and a reduced ability to see situations from others' points of view.
As for Col. Jolys, he may indeed be the 'Waterloo Sedley' (see Vanity Fair for that well-known faker of military merit) of the Lake District.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44309 - 11/29/18
From: RobinSelby, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character & Mr Farland!
The fact that Miss Huskisson’s forebear pushed her brother under the train is an important historical discovery, which sheds light on why the GA and Miss Huskisson were friends. Clearly they were kindred spirits.

The question what the GA, with all of Nancy’s force of character, did with her life can now be answered, though the documentation is still imperfect. Almost certainly she went to Belgium in August 1914 to drive an ambulance. Very soon she turned her energy and organisational ability into helping the flood of Belgian refugees. She provided invaluable assistance to a Belgian policeman with a luxuriant moustache, among many others. She was then talent-spotted for Room 41, where she applied her formidable intellect to decoding the Zimmermann Telegram. She was instrumental in proposing the plan to ‘Blinker’ Hall which helped to bring the US into the war.

In 1926 the famous author Agatha Christie disappeared for 11 days, and was ultimately found in Harrogate. It has long been unknown why she went to Harrogate. The truth can now be told. After the war the GA set up a refuge at Harrogate for young women with problems, where, with the benefit of the GA’s boundless compassion and counselling skills they came to terms with their problems and plotted a new path in life. The person who suggested that Agatha Christie should go to Harrogate was none other than the Belgian policeman.

So far all is clear, to anyone but the most carping critic. Miss Turner’s contributions to society deserve belated recognition.

Finally, I am beginning to suspect that there is something fishy about Colonel Thomas Jolys. I cannot find him in any genealogical database, so perhaps he was an impostor, and all the stuff about hero of many wars was just nonsense. The GA knew this, which is why he collapsed when she enigmatically suggested that his only acquaintance with military matters was toy trumpets.


posted via 86.175.127.229 user RobinSelby.


message 44308 - 11/28/18
From: Mike Field, subject: For Adam Quinan
Adam, I find I don't have your email address, as I thought I had. Could you email me please?
posted via 61.68.119.85 user mikefield.
message 44307 - 11/28/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: New BROADS MAPS ready for download
Adam, the TARS Bookstall (Kirkland Books) has for years been carrying high-res prints of all my maps except the Broads two.

I emailed them a couple of months ago about those two but didn't get a reply, so I rather hae me doots as to whether they're still in operation. (They do still have a domain name but it redirects to eBay, who apparently knows nothing about them.)

Sophie might be able to get one there if they're still operating. Otherwise I'd be happy to oblige with a print from here. Could you please let her know?
posted via 61.68.119.85 user mikefield.


message 44306 - 11/28/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: New BROADS MAPS ready for download
Sophie Neville was asking about Secret Water jigsaw puzzles on Facebook as a Christmas present. I suggested that she should discuss with you getting a high quality file of your map and contact one of those on-line puzzle makers who can make them up with a custom image. I don't know what size your files can be enlarged to.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44305 - 11/28/18
From: MarkD, subject: Re: New BROADS MAPS ready for download
Thanks Mike, we are planning a pirates cruise on the Broads and will use these!
posted via 165.225.81.41 user MarkD.
message 44304 - 11/28/18
From: MarkD, subject: Swallow II
With the passing of Roger Wardale, does anyone know what has happened to Swallow II?
posted via 165.225.81.41 user MarkD.
message 44303 - 11/27/18
From: wdmtgts, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character & Mr Farland!
This is an excellent subject for an article (which I do not have time to research at present, though watch this space.....). We would need to turn the spotlight upon the GA's friends, for example the outrageous Miss Huskisson, whose own great-aunt, unseen by the crowd, pushed her brother under a train at Liverpool.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user wdmtgts.
message 44302 - 11/22/18
From: Mike Field, subject: New BROADS MAPS ready for download
Dave Thewlis has now very kindly made my two new maps of the Broads available for free download on the All Things Ransome website.

While of course the maps are of real places (unlike the imaginary Lake in the north), they're somewhat different to current Ordnance Survey maps. First, I've tried to show the road and rail networks as they were in the 1930s rather than as they are now, and I've also shown more-or-less only as much of both as the children themselves used or that would have been evident to them from the water. Other features, like St Benet's Abbey, the Ranworth church tower, and the Cantley sugarbeet factory that were also visible from the water have been included. But the focus is on the waterways, with all the Ransome-specific features like No.7 nest, the Wilderness, the Roaring Donkey, Teasel's mooring locations, and so on also shown in order to allow you to see the children's locations and trace their movements as you read the two Broads books.

I experimented early on with map size, coverage, and orientation, and I finally concluded that AR had it right all along. So I've retained the Northern and Southern Rivers maps as he has them in the books' endpapers, with only marginal indicative overlap between the two.

(I still haven't entirely given up the idea of showing the entire Broads region on one large map, but not very much has happened in that direction yet.)

Because of the size of the geographical areas covered and the detail they contain, I would strongly advise anyone who wants to print the maps to do so at A3 (or larger) size if at all possible.

Finally, please note that the Lake map has had some minor modifications made to it. If you've already downloaded it you might like to have the updated version.

posted via 61.68.119.85 user mikefield.
message 44301 - 11/21/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character & Mr Farland!
Robin's theory that the Great Aunt could perhaps be a 'good' person inside, and is never given her due credit in the books, is very interesting. It was suggested her backstory could throw new light on her more recent actions, and paint her in a more forgiving light.

(A terrible thought for me, because I hated the GA with that uncomplicated sort of anger only a child could manifest, and that has stuck with me into adulthood!)

I started to turn this topic over in my mind after seeing the musical 'Wicked' at the theatre a few weeks ago. This re-tells the story of 'The Wizard of Oz' film, from the viewpoint of the (supposed) Wicked Witch of the West. It is fascinating how the entire film can be seen in a new light, if you take the musical's backstory and sidestory as gospel too. The green-skinned girl isn't quite what you thought.

You could perhaps take the GA theory to a whole new level, and suggest she perhaps had a wild childhood herself, running away from home with a friend, sleeping in boats, stealing food, posing as a working class kid somewhere... and then it all went terribly wrong, and disaster fell. The friend died? The GA sustained a lifelong injury/illness? So as an adult she would be desperate to stop any child in her care falling into the same terrible trap. Piano practice and best frocks could represent a well-meant wish to give Jim/Molly/Nancy/Peggy a better life.
posted via 81.129.150.158 user Magnus.


message 44300 - 11/21/18
From: Andy, subject: Re: Swallow Model
It's mine: I'm building it!

I'll be irregularly updating the build on a couple of forums, and on The Arthur Ransome page on Facebook. As the model's for a client, I don't want to give the whole game away before it's finished.

Today? While waiting for planks to dry (it's glued lapstrake - I'm not going to put in a bazillion tiny working copper rivets) I'm casting pigs. Five small ones and a big one. The small ones are about a cubic centimetre, the big one twice that.

Regarding the keel, it is immense. Dragging 100 lbs of pigs and maybe 300 lbs of boat up a beach = hard work. As to rolling it for a careen? Forget it!

Andy
posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.


message 44299 - 11/13/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: AR Enthusiast On TV!
Last night (12th Nov.) on television, Channel 4 News in the UK interviewed Professor Stuart Haszeldine of Edinburgh University about the problems of fracking in the UK.

Behind him on his bookshelf were clearly visible a set of the AR S&A canon, hardbacks with dustwrappers obviously well read.

Perhaps PP inspired him to take an interest in geology!
posted via 95.146.165.222 user MTD.


message 44298 - 11/05/18
From: Jon, subject: Re: Swallow Model
Dixon's farm didn't have a boatshed (WH; illustration "Is it for us?" Ch. 1) for the boat. There's also no mention of one, or of a jetty, in the description in that same chapter. Similarly, in SA (Ch.VI) "...they pulled Swallow’s nose well up on the beach and tied the painter round a big stone." If Roger and Titty by themselves couldn't beach Swallow there, they could have used the anchor to secure her (SA beginning of Ch. XIII).
posted via 98.218.103.166 user Jon.
message 44297 - 11/05/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Swallow Model
The two Amazons must have managed to beach "Amazon" on Wild Cat Island (but they were Amazons of course!).

And unless Dixon’s farm had a wharf or jetty (or a boatshed) two of the Swallows must have been able to beach or tie up "Swallow" when they went to get milk. Swallow with a fixed keel would have been harder to beach than "Amazon" (and "Scarab") with retractable centreboards.
posted via 202.49.158.82 user hugo.


message 44296 - 11/05/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Swallow Model
At least this is only a model. If this chap were trying to build a full-size replica he'd be faced with the problem of how to construct it using the available materials and techniques of the 1930s, but still make it light enough that four children under 13 could drag it up a beach.
posted via 81.129.150.154 user Magnus.
message 44295 - 11/04/18
From: Alex, subject: Swallow Model
A thread just taking off on the WoodenBoat Forum:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?244536-Swallow-the-dinghy
posted via 73.140.116.18 user Pitsligo.


message 44294 - 10/31/18
From: Jon, subject: Re: If Only...
. . . which also raises the possibility that the Jim and Molly's parents were missionaries, and the two were left in the care of the stick-in-the-mud GA while their parents were overseas.
posted via 98.218.103.166 user Jon.
message 44293 - 10/31/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: If Only...
I found Jon's analysis very clever, as I hadn't realised all the many things that could be inferred. I wish I'd thought of that myself.

But it could be overturned if you speculate the possibility of married/single aunts and uncles who went off to be missionaries in a foreign land (as two of Ransome's aunts did).
posted via 81.129.150.154 user Magnus.


message 44292 - 10/29/18
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Windermer Car Ferry
Car ferry now back in service.
posted via 95.151.60.96 user eclrh.
message 44291 - 10/15/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: George Owdon's descendant?
Perhaps I should have headed it George Owdon's customer, I din't think George was a collector for his own personal enjoyment but he intended to sell the eggs to collectors.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44290 - 10/14/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: George Owdon's descendant?
I certainly thought of Jemmerling when I saw the report, but not George Owdon. I think you may be right!
posted via 95.149.38.233 user MTD.
message 44289 - 10/14/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: George Owdon's descendant?
Not a Jemmerling but someone who seems to go for quantity not quality.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44288 - 10/12/18
From: Jon, subject: Re: If Only...
Probably a Blackett; if she were a Turner, she'd have to be much younger, or much older, than Mrs. Blackett & Capt. Flint otherwise she would have likely been part of the expedition to the Matterhorn. Similarly, any other Amazon aunts and uncles would likely be Blacketts.

Moving up a level to Great Aunts, there's a much broader set of possibilities, though I doubt that even there the Turner population was very large. If it had been, an orphaned (conjectural, but indicated) Molly & Jim Turner would have likely have been placed in guardianship of a married relative rather than a spinster. Of course if Molly & Jim Turner's parents were the only married couple among both their families that argument loses some merit (but suggests that all other parental siblings were male).
posted via 47.134.254.198 user Jon.


message 44287 - 10/12/18
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: If Only...
The one who could almost be a pirate must be the Aunt Helen referred to in SW who puts the Amazons up,for the night in London.

And no doubt the same Aunt Helen to whom PM is dedicated.
posted via 95.151.60.5 user eclrh.


message 44286 - 10/12/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: If Only...
The one who could almost be a pirate must be the Aunt Helen referred to in SW who puts the Amazons up,for the night in London. No way of telling whether she's a Blackett or a Turner.
posted via 92.18.218.99 user Mike_Jones.
message 44285 - 10/11/18
From: Tiss_Flower, subject: If Only...
I'm listening to SD and my ears pricked up at talk of aunts. The GA aside, Nancy says that most of their aunts are all right, some aren't even native and one could almost be a pirate. It made me wish I could have met at least that one in the pages of an AR book. Are there any other characters only spoken about whom it would be fun to meet? Also, which side of the family are all these aunts?
posted via 109.152.31.4 user Tiss_Flower.
message 44284 - 10/11/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: AR Anticipating WWII
The abstract of the paper mentions comparisons with the Boy Scout movement (though I can't imagine AR having much time for that!)

As for Enid Blyton...
posted via 95.149.38.233 user MTD.


message 44283 - 10/11/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: AR Anticipating WWII
And of course the entire Boy Scout movement was preparing children to grow up as soldiers who cook could on a fire and read semaphore.

Enid Blyton equally guilty.

(Excuse my sarcasm...)
posted via 31.51.234.41 user Magnus.


message 44282 - 10/10/18
From: Jon, subject: Re: AR Anticipating WWII
He'd have needed a very large degree of prescience or a high level of paranoia to have started the series on that basis, since Hitler's real rise to power didn't start until the 1932 elections. Leaving that aside, what elements of the books might have led the conspiracy theorist to such a premise?
Off the top of my head:

  1. In SA & SD, there are the use of bows and arrows

  2. Hidden messages, signalling and codes play key roles in SD, WH, PP, SW and ML and a secondary one in PM

  3. Scouting, tracking, and stalking come into play in SA, PP, CC, SW, BS, PM and GN. WH and SW also have good old-fashioned ambushes

  4. The core of SA is war, first between the Swallows and the Amazons, then between the combined forces and Captain Flint


Of course, someone needs to come up with a reason why all of the above aren't normal childrens' games. Anyone who's been a scout has undoubtedly learned at least elements of the first three; there have been essays (dare I say theses?) regarding sports as analog for war, even leaving out such games as "Capture the Flag".


posted via 98.218.103.166 user Jon.


message 44281 - 10/10/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: AR Anticipating WWII
They wanted a requestor to be affiliated with an organization and I figured "All Things Ransome" had to be perfect under the circumstances. Have not heard anything back so far.

posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 44280 - 10/09/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: AR Anticipating WWII
That's good Dave, I've seen that option on other Websites and have always been a bit wary!

Having said that, I did e-mail a university professor in the USA (on a non AR topic) having found their address online and got a very helpful and prompt reply.
posted via 95.149.38.233 user MTD.


message 44279 - 10/09/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: AR Anticipating WWII
Well, I've requested a copy from the author(s). We'll see.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 44278 - 10/08/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: AR Anticipating WWII
I saw the Researchgate link too Dave, and like you from what I seen Online about it was not sure. Given the premise of the paper I even wondered if it was genuine!
posted via 95.149.38.233 user MTD.
message 44277 - 10/08/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: AR Anticipating WWII
The paper is on "Researchgate" which appears to have a somewhat mixed reputation. One can sign up allegedly without payment, but some of the criticism suggests they are a bit free with one's information and credentials. There is a mechanism to request the full text from the authors, one must cite one's institution or organization and provide a name and e-mail address.

posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 44276 - 10/08/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: AR Anticipating WWII
I regularly search the Internet for a new information or publications related to AR and the '12', and have just come across an academic paper in the 'International Journal of Maritime History' by a Michael Bender.

It is headlined as

Arthur Ransome’s ‘Swallows and Amazons’ series: Harmless holiday adventures, or detailed preparations for the next war?

and according to the abstract AR "...is drawing a blueprint for rural guerrilla warfare after a successful invasion."

An interesting theory, is it one worthy of serious consideration?

Unfortunately, the paper is only available through a paywall. Anyone a subscriber to that journal?

posted via 95.149.38.233 user MTD.
message 44275 - 10/05/18
From: Glen, subject: Re: Missing signals from Winter Holiday.
Jon, That was a brilliant reply, thank you for that. I really like how you considered the Wild Cat option too.
posted via 86.149.77.209 user Worldofmouth.
message 44274 - 09/30/18
From: Jon, subject: Re: Missing signals from Winter Holiday.
As to what use could be made of the unused two, I'm inclined to say the only signal of WH relevance would be "Stay Home". For that, North Cone over Square ("house") would be the logical one.For any of their other adventures, the remaining symbol would also be irrelevant, either because they wouldn't have been starting from Holy Howe and Dixon's, or because they'd have had to signal to/from Beckfoot as well. The signal panels (in a tasteful, high visibility red or yellow) could have been taken to Wild Cat to keep in touch with the Natives I suppose, but that would mean re-mapping the code. Shall we consider those possibilities?

Sorry, I'm not feeling energetic enough to dress up the HTML to get the symbols over each other.


posted via 98.218.103.166 user Jon.


message 44273 - 09/30/18
From: Glen Jansen, subject: Theresa Mays favourite book
Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but I was intrigued to read today that her favourite book is Swallows and Amazons.
posted via 86.149.77.209 user Worldofmouth.
message 44272 - 09/29/18
From: Glen Jansen, subject: Re: Missing signals from Winter Holiday.
Yes Ed, I do think there was only 2 undefined... the Fram added a bit later of course as you quite rightly say.
posted via 86.149.77.209 user Worldofmouth.
message 44271 - 09/29/18
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Missing signals from Winter Holiday.
They added the signal "Come to the FRAM" leaving only 2 undefined.
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.
message 44270 - 09/29/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Missing signals from Winter Holiday.
Actually Dick says ''That leaves three signals not settled'' and the page from "Dick’s Pocket Book" shows three spare (2 under Beckfoot and one under North Pole). But they were not going south so one for "South Pole" was not needed.
posted via 202.154.150.133 user hugo.
message 44269 - 09/26/18
From: Glen Jansen, subject: Missing signals from Winter Holiday.
In WH, 10 signals out of a possible 12 were allocated a meaning. 2 were unaccounted for. What do you think the missing 2 could have been. For example... "Come to Rio"
posted via 86.156.97.251 user Worldofmouth.
message 44268 - 09/25/18
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: What does 'rond' mean?
I had concluded that a rond was an embankment, based on the etymology and the hypothesis that a rond anchor was so called because you fastened it in a rond or embankment. However, Magnus Smith’s interesting sources take one off in different directions.

It is reasonably clear from the book (‘The Norfolk Broads’) to which Magnus provides a link that a rond is land surrounded by an embankment. According to the British Library catalogue, this book was published in 1997. It looks a scholarly piece of work.

The reference to ‘marshy borders of rivers and broads, with beds of reeds and rushes which are called ronds’ is along the same lines, ie a rond is land (though in this case marshier) and not an embankment.

The painting ‘Cattle on the Rond’ shows that the cattle are on raised ground. It might be an embankment, but that is not clear. The artist, Edward Seago, was born in 1910 and died in 1974 – roughly a contemporary of Ransome. He was a Norwich man so should have been familiar with local terms.

So you pays your money and you takes your choice. A rond is either land, or an embankment. As far as Ransome is concerned, a rond is higher than the fields and something which keeps the river from overflowing, therefore an embankment. Although he was interested in dialect, he was only a visitor to the Broads and was probably not an authority.

posted via 86.174.47.92 user RobinSelby.


message 44267 - 09/25/18
From: Peter Wagner, subject: Re: What does 'rond' mean?
I have been sailing on the Broads more times than I can remember and have always known the anchors we use as rond anchors. The boatyards refer to them as this also.
posted via 94.250.228.202 user PeterW.
message 44266 - 09/23/18
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: International 'reading S&A' selfie day
A small quibble, but important. Not 'reading S&A', but anything by AR. Unfortunately I forgot to pack my Twilight Years. But we got a lot of contributions.
posted via 86.148.64.223 user awhakim.
message 44265 - 09/22/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: What does 'rond' mean?
I doubt AR ever guessed at a word. It is true he did not own his Great Oxford English Dictionary at the time that Coot Club was written, but he liked local terminology and dialect.

A quick Google for "rond norfolk" reveals plenty of reliable sources. The link below is to a book that has been scanned in, mentioning "lost ronds".

You could also look at http://norridge.me.uk/norfolk/nfkcult/part05.htm which says "Beware of the marshy borders of rivers and broads, with beds of reeds and rushes which are called ronds".

Then there are paintings that use this word - see http://www.portlandgallery.com/artists/30911/13087/edward-seago/norfolk--cattle-on-the-rond for "Cattle on the rond"

posted via 31.51.234.64 user Magnus.
message 44264 - 09/22/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: International 'reading S&A' selfie day
P.S. It is today (Sep 22nd 2018) and the address to email pictures to is
lochanhead (at) gmail.com
if you dont want to use the social media links suggested by TARS.
posted via 31.51.234.64 user Magnus.
message 44263 - 09/22/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: International 'reading S&A' selfie day
This is a global event organised by TARS, but non-members can join in. The idea is that fans across the world will take a photo of themselves reading S&A, and either share on social media, or email to TARS who are forming a massive collage of pics.

I thought it was a good bit of fun, trying to think of how to photograph myself reading S&A in a way that nobody else will. My colleague who is looking after 'Swallow' at the moment is trying to get a snap of himself reading out on the water. My own boat is garage-bound, so I need to think some more.

I did want to climb a tree and show that a Kindle is useful to take the entire 12 books with you anywhere, with no weight-carrying issues!

Do share your ideas, and have some fun!

Again, this is not limited to TARS members, and if lots of social media websites are flooded with S&A photos, that can only be a good thing!

posted via 31.51.234.64 user Magnus.
message 44262 - 09/21/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: What does 'rond' mean?
It may be that AR is indulging in a bit of creative back formation. The place a rond anchor is used should be called the rond, hust as a mud anchor is used in mud.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44261 - 09/20/18
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: What does 'rond' mean?
Going back to the original question, could AR have subconsciously been thinking of 'bund'? He had visited Shanghai.
posted via 174.3.224.72 user awhakim.
message 44260 - 09/20/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: What does 'rond' mean?
I have a pair of rond anchors somewhere, which Imused when when sailing on the Broads in the 1990s.
posted via 88.110.69.226 user Mike_Jones.
message 44259 - 09/19/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: What does 'rond' mean?
I remember when holidaying on the Broads with my parents in the 1960s (yes, I admit in a cruiser like the Margoletta) it came with a rond anchor, very useful on soft banks for mooring.
posted via 2.25.125.62 user MTD.
message 44258 - 09/19/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: What does 'rond' mean?
"Possibly rond has the same Germanic root as the German Rand, meaning edge, rim or brim."

I suspect this is the case. My understanding is that the rond is simply the bank, the solid earth border to a water channel. The rond may be a constructed embankment like a levee, but this is not a definitional requirement -- the definition is simply 'the edge'. So any river bank is a 'rond' by virtue of its simply being the bank.

Rond anchors a la AR have never been in use out here AFAIK, and when I wanted one for Aileen Louisa some years ago I had to design it and have it made for me. (An alternative, and simpler, method has been to cut one fluke and the folding stock off a traditional fisherman's anchor; but fisherman's anchors are themselves pretty hard to find nowadays -- I've only ever had two -- and I wouldn't have wanted to waste one by doing that to it anyway.)

The point about rond anchors is that once they're in place in the bank they dig in more firmly the harder the pull, and they don't present a hazard to anyone walking along. I was a bit surprised to learn that most narrowboat users seem to use 'pins' for their mooring lines, which are simply straight metal spikes banged down into the bank a bit like a tent-peg, leaving at least several inches of steel sticking up to bark the shins of an unwary passer-by. That's like driving in an anchor that doesn't have the second fluke cut off -- and it's less effective anyway because a good pull can have it out of the ground.

There's some correspondence at the link. An internet search will (now) throw up several other links and a few pictures.

posted via 61.68.41.39 user mikefield.
message 44257 - 09/19/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: What does 'rond' mean?
Possibly rond has the same Germanic root as the German Rand, meaning edge, rim or brim. Presumably AR was using it to add local colour, just as he uses dyke to mean a ditch or channel (e.g. Kendal Dyke, Meadow Dyke), while elsewhere in England it refers to the barrier thrown up by the ditch's excavation, e.g. Grimsdyke.
posted via 88.110.69.226 user Mike_Jones.
message 44256 - 09/19/18
From: Robin Selby, subject: What does 'rond' mean?
There is the following passage in The Big Six:

‘The fields were below the level of the river and the Death and Glories, marching along the rond that kept the river from overflowing, looked down on feeding cattle and horses…’ (Jonathan Cape, 2005, p98).

‘Rond’ is an odd word here. The Oxford English Dictionary defines ‘rond’ as a ‘stick, or piece of firewood’. The OED omits mention of the rond anchor, which is commonly used on the Norfolk Broads. Ransome obviously means ‘dyke’ or ‘sea wall’. It may be a piece of Norfolk dialect, but it is difficult to imagine that Ransome used a word that would be meaningless to his readers, when it was far easier to say ‘dyke’. If it is a typographical error, it is equally difficult to imagine what word Ransome intended to use. ‘Road’ is the nearest word, but that is plain wrong. I have asked OED what they think, but this is evidently not one of their highest priorities.

Any views?

While I have pen in hand, so to speak, I thought I would list a few typos and oddities:

‘…a rope Captain Flint had borrowed from the porter’. (Peter Duck, p20, Jonathan Cape, 2004). Why did Captain Flint need to borrow a rope from the porter, when the Wild Cat had plenty of rope?

‘There was an old inn at the bend the Swan.’ (Coot Club, p27, Jonathan Cape, 2005).

‘leant Roger her torch.’ (Pigeon Post, p248, Jonathan Cape, 2004).

‘there was cheerful moment.’ (Great Northern?, p48, Jonathan Cape, 2005)


posted via 86.167.164.138 user RobinSelby.


message 44255 - 09/03/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Thoughts on Nancy; was Re: Least Favourite Character!
WILD SPECULATION:

It is a quietly accepted phenomenon that writers are prone to creating in one character or another our own romantic ideal. Likewise, when we endow those characters with flaws --as all characters should have, if they are to be interesting-- we tend to give them flaws we think we could accept in our romantic partner and compensate for with our own strengths. Knowing about it, wary of it, it's one of those traps most of us try not to fall into. Second drafts are a good time to make sure that characters are definitively their own people.

With as much attention as he lavished on the character, I wonder whether Nancy was, on some level, AR's romantic ideal. Her seasickness (pretty minor) and propensity to dominate and direct a social environment (not always bad, especially when done to a rewarding end) might have been traits AR would, in the quiet of his own mind, find attractive as small things that he could sympathize with and compensate for.

This would not be even remotely paedophilia, of course, especially if AR lived within those stories as someone of that age range. By that, I mean that I often live within my stories, as I write them, as a 20-something-year old (roughly half my current age); similarly, my main characters are about that age. It is an age I feel mentally comfortable in. Others of my characters are an older me, just as CF was an older AR, but as a writer I enjoy the privilege of existing in the story in simultaneous different roles --just as we have hypothesized that AR did with Dick and Dot as well as CF.

If AR was most comfortable to slip into the mindset of an early-teen, as his sublime ability to write an adventure for children might indicate, Nancy might be the ideal that he would find interesting --a fantasy crush, if you will, who might even reciprocate his interest in stories that he never wrote down.

If so, Mike Jones's observation that Nancy was, in some part, Evgenia, could be quite accurate. Perhaps a modified Evgenia, without the aspects he found grating (note that Nancy was not discouraging of endeavors, as Evgenia was of AR's writing: his "critic on the hearth"), or with them diminished, and perhaps with positive traits Evgenia didn't posesses. But it would stand to reason that his imagined romantic ideal would overlap considerably with his romantic partner.

The other possibility is that AR created Nancy as his daughter. Was Nancy an ideal of what he hoped for for Tabitha? I know *nothing* of Tabitha, or any genuine details of her relationship with her father, so can't really explore any Nancy/Tabitha similarity. Nor am I a father myself, to speak of parental fantasies authoritatively. That said, it seems likely that AR fantasized how his daughter might ideally move through her childhood, as any parent would. That AR and Tabitha were in some part distant, or estranged, could even have facilitated the creation of Nancy-as-Tabitha: what must it have been like for him, feeling the internal demands of his writing in conflict with what society idealizes as the preeminancy of parental joy? Would Nancy have been the daughter he actually could enjoy without the emotional dissonance of the art/family conflict? Idealizing her as the superlative child --a Golden Child-- would be a reasonable thing to do even without the conflict. A couple minor flaws, because all characters have them, and... Nancy. Perhaps?

Again, all that is WILD speculation.

Alex
posted via 73.140.116.18 user Pitsligo.


message 44254 - 09/03/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
On reflection, Nancy's basis in real life seems crystal clear. Physically and mentally strong, domineering but capable of warmth, her opinion regularly sought by by the author just as Nancy helps with the illustrations: it has to be Evgenia, the second Mr. Ransome.
posted via 88.110.69.226 user Mike_Jones.
message 44253 - 09/03/18
From: Andy, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character & Mr Farland!
The humour underlying the line "Mrs Jackson at Holly Howe wanted to start cleaning the whole farm up" utterly passed me by as a young reader, but it's damn funny now.

Andy
posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.


message 44252 - 09/03/18
From: Jo, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
I like all of that, and wish you'd turn it into a Mixed Moss piece! It would produce cacklings in some hen-coops, but you could write a balanced piece also showing some of Nancy's better facets (for example, her protectiveness of weaker vessels, e.g. Titty re the dowsing, Peggy re thunder, and even the 'hounded' GA at one point).
And yes, Titty would be great as a sailing companion, though there's an argument for taking Susan as she'd remember the picnic salt etc; and people often forget that in WD she helms alone all night in an unknown sea in the dark once John has gone to sleep.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user Jo.
message 44251 - 09/02/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
It reminds me that both PD and ML bring them in to contact with 'real' pirates etc and includes actual violence. Did AR want to write a more conventional adventure novel rather than ones of children having believable escapades?
posted via 95.144.138.39 user MTD.
message 44250 - 09/02/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
In some ways that improves my hypothesis: both times when Nancy's halo slips a little are in the meta-fictions of PD and ML. If PD and ML are "tales told by the others," as I have understood them to be commonly accepted as, wouldn't it make sense that the others might (perhaps in amicable jealousy?) add a little bit of fallibility to their Golden Child comrade? Sea-sickness is a very human shortcoming for an otherwise exemplary sailor, and a poor grasp of the reality of the situation is a startlingly plausible blind spot for a young woman who has otherwise been virtually infallible in her management of her social environment.

If the others "wrote" ML post-SW, when Nancy muscled in and re-directed the entire focus of the expedition toward a more fantastical scenario --not necessarily for the better if one looks at the original, cartographic premise of the expedition-- Nancy's glaring obliviousness to the difference of real/fantasy pirates becomes a dark mirror to her redirection in SW. One could imagine meta-Nancy's obliviousness in ML might have been John's (or even Susan's or Titty's) slightly reprimanding contribution to the ML story: "Your fantasy is not always appropriate, Nancy, and not only does it sometimes foul up more serious plans, it could even get people hurt."

Of course I don't know --can't know-- if that's actually why Nancy is perhaps a little less perfect in those two stories. It seems a very meta thing for AR to have 1) thought through, and 2) implemented. But given some of his other subtleties, I like to think this is where AR allowed some of his own resentment against Golden Children (I expect we've all known one or two) to be expressed gently, and to humble even Nancy, his favorite. It is, after all fiction within fiction, so Nancy herself, in the "real life" of the other books, could still be magnificent.

(And as a side note, yes, Titty reliably shines. Her faults are plausible and sympathetic, and her successes are genuine triumphs. If I, as a writer, could choose one character to go out sailing with for an afternoon, it would be Titty.)

Alex
posted via 73.140.116.18 user Pitsligo.


message 44249 - 09/02/18
From: Jo, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
I take your point about the halo - though Nancy is v. seasick in PD! I think the cracks in Nancy are showing in ML, where her fantasy piratism comes up against real pirates and she strikes a few wrong notes. Titty shines here, as with her passionate plea to Missee Lee about her father.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user Jo.
message 44248 - 09/02/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
Thank you for the link to What Happened Next. It is possible to read things (apart from slightly awkward plot development) into the relationship between Nancy and Daisy, and it is just as possible to read quite a lot into Nancy's and John's undescribed day out together in GN, which contributes even less to the plot. Should one just conclude that AR was giving her every opportunity to explore her sexuality within the confines of what was expected of children's literature at the time?

Leaving the question of meta-fiction aside for the moment, I have often wondered what became of Missee Lee. My speculation is that she and her father before her had salted away a lot of their wealth outside China, and that with the advance of Communism she retreated to the West and eventually paired off with Jim Turner.

posted via 88.110.69.226 user Mike_Jones.


message 44247 - 09/02/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Eats shoots and leaves (OT); was Re: Least Favourite Character!
That was the one I had in mind, with Quarter Cask at the other extreme. I think with both John and whisky we are praising with faint damns.
posted via 88.110.69.226 user Mike_Jones.
message 44246 - 09/02/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Eats shoots and leaves (OT); was Re: Least Favourite Character!
It would have to be Isle of Jura for me (before I gave it up for health and medical reasons), is there an AR connection somewhere here?
posted via 95.144.138.39 user MTD.
message 44245 - 09/02/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
Jo - no need for a fallout shelter, John on occasions is far too serious and sensible!
posted via 95.144.138.39 user MTD.
message 44244 - 09/02/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
Well argued Alex, and obviously I agree about Roger it has made me re-think about Nancy.

A 'golden child', I suffered this in childhood being the second born of a family too (and after he had died young as I have recounted here before), but it had never occured to me about Nancy.

I find Nancy fascinating in some ways (I've argued that as she has no basis in real life AR did somewhat indulge in her character - see link below), and realise from your comment that Peggy is very much 'second' and always trying to live up to Nancy's image. I wonder if AR had similar issues with his elder brother who was killed in WWI?

posted via 95.144.138.39 user MTD.
message 44243 - 09/01/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
I'm going to go way out on the limb of heresy: Roger and Nancy are tied for my least-favorite characters.

For the reasons already noted by others, Roger is perpetually annoying; to me, it's in the way a much-tolerated baby of the family can be. Accomodated in his cheekiness and irresponsibility because his elders mitigate his influence. When I was a child, "Don't be a Roger" was my father's admonition when I was becoming annoying. It never failed to sober me.

Nancy, on the other hand, is a little too perfect. AR adored that character, and it shows --not necessarily in a good way. Her overshadowing of the others, especially Peggy, grows tedious. I knew too many "Golden Children" throughout my youth (and even a few now) that were a bit too much like Nancy. No more perfect than any of the rest of us, but somehow always able to appear so, and to call the shots as they wanted. When I very first read SW, I wanted to stand up and cheer at the appearance of the Amazons. Now that point just marks the beginning of Nancy trying to take over the story.

While she is irksome in her perfection, it isn't that I *dis*like the character so much as I dislike Roger, but I have come to find myself skimming past the Nancy scenes because the character struggles so little. Struggle is interesting, in characters, and Nancy doesn't do so much of it as others do. So from my vantage as a writer, she simply isn't very interesting. AR loved her too much to give her any valuable flaws.

We see John shoulder the responsibilities of leadership throughout the books. We see Susan's worries for her own responsibilities: the logisitics and support that make or break any expedition. We see Titty struggle many times, both with uncertainties and with skills that she develops and builds on throughout the stories; likewise Dick and Dot. Peggy is disappointingly under-developed as a character (I often think there should have been only three Swallows so that Peggy could have had more room to be developed as a distinct character), but even in her we see glimpses of interesting imperfections and insecurities that she struggles with. Roger is annoying, but over the course of the books we do watch him climbing a ladder of accomplishment; as an "Egyptian" (SW) we even catch a glimpse of some maturity under pressure. But Nancy just seems to exist in a perpetual halo, unchallenged, unafraid, without much room to grow, and to me that isn't very interesting.

Alex


posted via 73.140.116.18 user Pitsligo.


message 44242 - 09/01/18
From: Jon, subject: Eats shoots and leaves (OT); was Re: Least Favourite Character!
Since I assume the omission of the comma there was deliberate, may I enquire which Laphroaig is your least favourite? I suppose mine would be the basic 10 Year Old, but that's rather like choosing a least-favourite "real-life" S&A book.
posted via 98.218.103.166 user Jon.
message 44241 - 09/01/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
I can see your point, though there is nothing wrong with a boy (possibly destined for Pangbourne Royal Naval College) wanting to be a sailor like his father.

The whole Swallows situation depends on John and Susan being trustworthy and reliable, and therefore perhaps less favoured than the other characters by readers. But they have their moments, especially in WDMTGTS.

I have a least favourite Laphraoig Malt Whisky, but I still enjoy it!

posted via 88.110.69.226 user Mike_Jones.


message 44240 - 09/01/18
From: Jo, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
John. He has his career already mapped out and he seems to me like a child who tells you at 12 that he's going to be an accountant, at which point you cross him off your 'interesting conversation' list. Life not open, unlike Titty's. (I am now going into my fallout shelter in preparation for responses)
posted via 84.92.123.32 user Jo.
message 44239 - 08/31/18
From: Tom Napier, subject: Re: Least Contribution Contest
There's the mysterious Mr Jenkyns who was to occupy the Callum's guest bedroom until Dick had an accident with sulphuretted hydrogen. WH, C 21.

posted via 108.16.164.228 user Didymus.
message 44238 - 08/29/18
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
As a child "capable" Susan was probably my least favourite. She was always the organised one who told Titty and Roger when it was time bed. It was refreshing in WDMTGTS when it was revealed she actually had a weakness - seasickness.
posted via 92.16.103.129 user MartinH.
message 44237 - 08/29/18
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character & Mr Farland!
Contemplation of the least favourite character leads ineluctably to the grim figure of the Great Aunt. Ransome makes clear that she has a suffocating effect upon everyone around her. This extends well beyond her immediate circle: ‘Mrs Jackson at Holly Howe wanted to start cleaning the whole farm up as soon as she heard that Miss Turner was coming’. (Swallowdale, p37, Jonathan Cape 2004).

Yet Ransome also makes passing reference to the fact that the GA brought up James and Molly Turner after they were orphaned at an early age (eg Nancy ‘You see, she brought them up’ – p52). It is clear that she brought them up at Beckfoot – ‘“I wonder how mother and Uncle Jim escaped from the great-aunt to come up here”, said Peggy. “She was looking after them, you know.”’ (p335). It is important that James and Molly stayed at their own house; my father was orphaned at the age of 15, and it was a great wrench to be shipped from England to his aunt and uncle in Vancouver. Of course, we do not know how much of a sacrifice this entailed for the GA; not much if she was still living with her brother at Beckfoot (assuming, that is, that Beckfoot belonged to the Turner family rather than the Blackett family), but quite a lot if she had already set up her own establishment in the bright lights of Harrogate. James and Molly do not seem to have enjoyed the experience, but the point is that the GA rose to the challenge, doubtless according to her own lights and the standards of the time. If we wanted to get sentimental we might speculate that the GA sacrificed the prospect of marriage by looking after the two children. It meant living in a place with a narrower social circle, and the existence of James and Molly might deter prospective suitors. So three cheers for the GA.

Next let us focus on the interesting and surprising insight offered by Timothy towards the end of The Picts and the Martyrs, when he points out the similarities between the characters of the GA and Nancy. This makes us view the GA in quite a different light. If she is like Nancy in forcefulness of character, perhaps she is like her in other ways. Perhaps she was not always grim. Perhaps she and her brother enjoyed Lakeland pursuits together when they were young. It was probably the GA who sent the hotpot down to the group of skaters on the lake, which Mrs Blackett recalled in Winter Holiday.

Ransome never gives any credit to the GA for bringing up James and Molly (eg Mrs Blackett ‘…how much better it was now that children could be the friends of their elders instead of their terrified subjects’ – p432). Nor does he give her any credit for going to Beckfoot to look after Nancy and Peggy, exactly as she had looked after James and Molly – the GA must have had a sense that history was repeating itself.

I personally think that Ransome is a bit harsh on the GA. True, he endows her with a touch of nobility when she is at bay on the Beckfoot lawn, though the abiding recollection is of the maid dancing in the kitchen. But of course Ransome was writing for children, and a good uncomplicated villain like Black Jake, George Owdon or Mr Jemmerling drives the plot merrily along.

posted via 86.182.107.133 user RobinSelby.


message 44236 - 08/29/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character & Mr Farland!
In defence of Mr Farland, he is the solicitor to Mr Sonning of Potter Heigham; and also that initially the Death & Glories think that Tom cast off the cruiser at Jonnatt’s and vice versa: Tom said to them "What on earth made you do it? I couldn’t help doing it to the “Margoletta …." And Joe says "We thought it was you" (BS2).

Dr Dudgeon commented later "to hear our good policeman talk, you’d think poor Frank (Farland) was in league with the boys himself" (BS24). And later Mr Farland is interested when George O. says "they hadn’t got a camera" (how did George know that, and for that matter why he was interested in whether they had a camera?). This is after Ralph says they let off a "great flare … we couldn’t help seeing them" and George gave him an angry look (BS32).
posted via 202.49.158.24 user hugo.


message 44235 - 08/29/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
Why would middle class adults think it likely that working class children were innocent, when there was nobody else present, and no-one else with any motive?

To me, the only bit of the book that felt unreal was this exchange...

"You cast of that boat?" said Bill's father to his son.
"No," said Bill. "We didn't. None of us"
"You hear that," said Bill's father, turning to his friends. "Bill never tell me a lie in his life."

...or perhaps I was just a very untruthful child!
posted via 86.134.225.25 user Magnus.


message 44234 - 08/28/18
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
(Sorry - the editing went off on an adventure of its own. Let me try
this again.)
--------------------------------------------------
Roger came to me in a much more positive light.

When I first started reading the Ransome series, I was lucky to
have happened to start with the right one, SA. That book began
with what are today to me famous words, "Roger, aged seven,..."
This is what grabbed my attention, for two reasons. I was seven.
Here was a character that I felt I could associate with, one that
I could understand.

The second reason: my Father's name was ROGER, but of course I
would not call him that, but I did know his name, so at last, now
I can talk about ROGER (not my dad) and get away with using my
father's name.

The story went on to show Roger pretending to be a sailing ship,
tacking (a term that at that time meant nothing - something to
learn). He was pretending, just playing a "let's pretend" game.
I could identify with that as well, as many a time I sat
astraddle of the big arm rest of the easy chair, listening to the
radio "LONE RANGER" and "riding my horse" shooting my cap pistol
to help The Lone Ranger fight off the bad guys, just pretending,
somewhat like Roger was pretending.

I could go along with the idea. I became a part of that made up
adventure. I felt a connection with this character who turned
out to be the youngest in his family, just as I was the youngest,
which gave me yet another connection with this character.

I was so proud when "WE" found the gold in PP.

Roger and I were good friends. I was glad I was able to go with him
on those adventures. He is still a good friend to me decades
later.

When I today re-read of his adventures, somehow it helps me feel
young again. One is never too old to go camping on Wild Cat
island, with the Swallows.

"Those were the days, my friend. We thought they'd never end."

ED KISER, KENTUCKY, USA

posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 44233 - 08/28/18
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
Roger came to me in a much more positive light.

When I first started reading the Ransome series, I was lucky to have
happened to start with the right one, SA. That book began with what
are today to me famous words, "Roger, aged seven,..." This is what
grabbed my attention, for two reasons. I was seven. Here was a
character that I felt I could associate with, one that I could understand.

My father's name was ROGER, but of course I would not call him that, but
I did know his name, so at last, now I can talk about ROGER (not my dad)
and get away with using my father's name.

The story went on to show Roger pretending to be a sailing ship,
tacking (a term that at that time meant nothing - something to learn). He was pretending, just playing a "let's pretend" game. I could
identify with that as well, as many a time I sat astraddle of the big
arm rest of the easy chair, listening to the radio "LONE RANGER" and "riding my horse" shooting my cap pistol to help The Lone Ranger fight off the bad guys, just pretending, somewhat like Roger was pretending.

I was so proud when "WE" found the gold in PP.

Roger and I were good friends. I was glad I was able to go with him
on those adventures. He is still a good friend to me decades later.

When I today re-read of his adventures, somehow it helps me feel young again. One is never too old to go camping on Wild Cat island, with the
Swallows.

"Those were the days, my friend. We though they'd never end."

ED KISER, KENTUCKY, USA
with the idea. I became a part of that made up adventure. I felt a
connection with this character who turned out to be the youngest in his
family, just as I was the youngest - which gave me yet another connection with this character.

posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 44232 - 08/28/18
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
" . . .there wouldn't have been much of a story."

Yes, I think AR was more concerned with dramatic effect at the conclusion of The Big Six. The book was published in 1940, and in the mid-20th century 'murder mystery' plays and books nearly always ended with the full cast of characters assembled in a room so that the 'sleuth' could dramatically reveal the identity of the killer. It was always someone you didn't expect, and there would usually be a sudden struggle ("Look out - he's got a gun!") and a chase before capture. Anyone who remembers the Paul Temple series on UK radio will recall that every story ended like that. I think AR was doing much the same but, I think, slightly tongue in cheek.
posted via 81.141.61.62 user Peter_H.


message 44231 - 08/28/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
Some good points Robin, well made.

Even on re-readings I find the reaction of most of the adults to the accusations against Tom and the D & Gs odd. I realise that AR needed to keep the plot going but this always seems taking it too far. Similarly, the lack of proper fulsome apology when they are 'proved' to be totally innocent is disappointing.
posted via 95.144.138.39 user MTD.


message 44230 - 08/28/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
While I agree that it appears that the male authority figures are seriously lacking in fairness and common sense in BS, I suppose if everyone dismissed the allegations then there wouldn't have been much of a story.
Even Harry Banford, the Eel man, despite being their alibi for one of the events, seems to doubt the D&Gs innocence.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44229 - 08/28/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
Perhaps that's why I find him irritating, met too many boys like that both in childhood and adulthood!
posted via 95.144.138.39 user MTD.
message 44228 - 08/28/18
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
The behaviour of Mr Farland, Dr Dudgeon and Constable Tedder is bizarre. They are respectively a solicitor, magistrate and policeman, and should know that there is a presumption of innocence until proved guilty. They refuse to exercise any sort of fairness to their children’s friends, though they should know that it is improbable that the Death and Glories should suddenly display anti-social behaviour, and equally improbable that their children would want to continue their friendship with such changelings. Messrs Farland, Dudgeon and Tedder therefore fail to give a lead to the community, regardless of the risk that a lynch mentality is developing which might cause real damage: Joe’s mother says that ‘Hannam’s would have sacked your dad if he weren’t too good a boatbuilder.’
Mr Farland talks nonsense when he says ‘It was a wicked plot and a clever plot, and many people have been taken in by it…It wouldn’t be a bad thing if the truth got out, though as a solicitor I suppose I ought not to say so’. It was imperative that the reputations of the boys should be restored forthwith.
Thus in the interests of his plot, Ransome had to make the adults behave badly. Perhaps Ransome went further than was strictly necessary; for example, Dr Dudgeon did not have to say that he found some of Tedder’s evidence persuasive, the more so since he had not followed the dictates of natural justice and heard what the Death and Glories had to say. However, it is worth noting that the moral failure of Messrs Farland, Dudgeon and Tedder is counter-balanced by Mrs Barrable and Mrs Dudgeon.

posted via 86.182.125.23 user RobinSelby.
message 44227 - 08/28/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
Roger might be annoying, but he is REAL. A vast number of boys are like that! It would too suspicious to have a cast of 100% sensible sorts like John, Dick and Tom.

Pete is depicted in a much better light, though perhaps more well behaved and clean of thought than is likely.
posted via 86.134.225.25 user Magnus.


message 44226 - 08/27/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
There's a connection I never expected to see! I agree, something about his attitude in BS (he doesn't accept Tom's innocence) has always puzzled me.
posted via 95.144.138.39 user MTD.
message 44225 - 08/27/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
But he is persuaded by Dick's photographic evidence.
posted via 94.119.96.0 user Mike_Jones.
message 44224 - 08/27/18
From: Duncan Hall, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
Just remembered I was supposed to say why... I like him in CC and feel he ought to be on the side of truth and justice, like a Broadland Atticus Finch, but he just falls in with the ideological state apparatus!
posted via 83.241.211.66 user Duncan.
message 44223 - 08/27/18
From: Duncan Hall, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
Mr Farland annoys me in The Big Six.
posted via 83.241.211.66 user Duncan.
message 44222 - 08/26/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
I'd agree with your most interesting, perhaps Roger just caught me on a bad day when reading PP!
posted via 95.144.138.39 user MTD.
message 44221 - 08/26/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Least Favourite Character!
Roger is possibly the most irritating of the leading characters, at least for adult readers, but without him the Swallows might really be a bit bland. Somebody has to prefer motor to sail, to be the grit in the oyster. I suspect that for lots of young boys he has been their favourite.

My own least favourite? I am not sure that I have one among the main protagonists; they are all likeable in their different ways - one of the strengths of AR's writing. Perhaps the most interesting are Nancy, Titty and Dorothea, but even that judgement may be unfair on the others.
posted via 88.110.69.226 user Mike_Jones.


message 44220 - 08/26/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Least Favourite Character!
Over the years there have been discussions here on people's favourite books and characters in the twelve, I'm about half-way through PP at the moment and it occurred to me that I have strong negative feelings about some of the characters!

It would be interesting to know which of any of the characters people have a disliking for, but... to stop it becoming like a Facebook or Twitter style poll you need to explain why.

By 'character' I mean any of the Ss, As, Ds etc or the related adults who have a major part in the novels - such as Peter Duck.

This, of course, has been prompted by my own thoughts on a particular character, so time for me to 'come clean' as it were.

Mine is Roger, reiterated for me by reading PP. His antics (such as when they are all attempting to dowse) are just plain irritating, and sometimes I'm surprised nobody bluntly and directly tells him so (though he does get some chastisement for it.)

Compare this to the description of Titty's attempts at dowsing, for me it shows where AR's strengths as a writer can be found.
posted via 95.144.138.39 user MTD.


message 44219 - 08/24/18
From: Jon, subject: Re: Back To Something Serious
I do think that Susan demonstrates that dry wit, especially when dealing with Roger. The sequence in SW where she finishes his sentences is a classic:
“Can I tear the paper off?” said Roger. “Good. Garibaldi. That’s squashed flies. What about opening this box? We’re bound to want to. . . .”
“Shut up just a minute.
One bag of potatoes. . . . What’s that other bag?”
“Beans,” said Bridget.
“Three slabs of sticky cake. . . .”
“A whole box of chocolate,” said Roger. “Nut and raisin kind, in slabs. Let’s . . .”
“Leave them alone,” said Susan.

posted via 98.218.103.166 user Jon.
message 44218 - 08/24/18
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Witch's Cottage
No, 'century'. Very long-established use this side of the pond.
posted via 86.140.235.218 user awhakim.
message 44217 - 08/23/18
From: Jon, subject: Re: Back To Something Serious
Zef Zptvagl va PP

if I remembered my ROT13 correctly.
posted via 98.218.103.166 user Jon.


message 44216 - 08/23/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Back To Something Serious
Out of nowhere, this line came to mind as one of those which raises a smile:

...Bless the man, if he hasna been stirrin' a puddin' wi' the ties...

You will of course know who said it and in which book?
posted via 86.134.225.25 user Magnus.


message 44215 - 08/22/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Witch's Cottage
Ah, as in "circa" I presume. Thanks.
posted via 154.5.151.179 user dthewlis.
message 44214 - 08/22/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Witch's Cottage
Dave,

In the description there is a cryptic C18 which stands for 18th century so the cottage is over two hundred up to three hundred years old.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 44213 - 08/21/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Witch's Cottage
Thanks Mike. That's an interesting site. I've added a couple of photos.

And according to the page at the link, the ship remains at Beaumont Quay are of the Rose, an 1880 spritsail barge. (And the quay was last used in 1921.)

posted via 27.122.14.94 user mikefield.
message 44212 - 08/21/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Witch's Cottage
Is it curious that there's no reference to how old the cottage is / when it was built (or roughly when)?
posted via 154.5.151.179 user dthewlis.
message 44211 - 08/21/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Witch's Cottage
Following my recent visit to Quay Lane in SW country I've searched Online and found the entry for it on the Historic England Website. It is designated Grade II Listed Building just referred to as 'thatched cottage', no name.
posted via 95.144.138.39 user MTD.
message 44210 - 08/20/18
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Least Contribution Contest
Elleray seems to have been a prominent name in Windermere, according to the Woodland Trust: 'Orrest Head and Elleray Wood formed part of the Elleray Estate which was formerly owned by Arthur Henry Heywood. In 1902 his widow and daughter gave Orrest Head in trust to Windermere Council to be held for public walks of pleasure grounds. In 1943 most of Elleray Wood was given to the Council under similar terms by other members of the family.' It's an unusual name, yet Ransome made him a taxi driver.
posted via 86.182.125.23 user RobinSelby.
message 44209 - 08/20/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: 2016 S&A movie on TV now
Did you stop it? I watched the DVD with my grandchildren this afternoon.
posted via 88.110.69.226 user Mike_Jones.
message 44208 - 08/20/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Least Contribution Contest
Looks like we have a contest for the character who makes the least contribution in the books, the named but unheard Dick Elleray or the heard but unnamed gentleman on who talks to Roger.

Are there any other candidates, named or not, vocal or silent?

On the vocal but unnamed side, there is the regular of the Roaring Donkey who probably makes a comment which disqualifies him from consideration "Poor lads... So young and with nothing left to live for."
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 44207 - 08/20/18
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: 'Speedy' in SW
'Smallest contribution' - what about Dick Elleray? He appears in 'Pigeon Post' p. 291 driving Squashy Hat home from Rio, and I don't think he ever appears again, even in Col. Jolys's brigade at the end of 'Picts & Martyrs'. At least we know his name.
posted via 86.129.3.35 user Peter_H.
message 44206 - 08/19/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: 'Speedy' in SW
We see a back view of him in the illustration 'Roger on Guard' in S&A (page 101 in the current Red Fox paperback edition), and I've just noticed he seems quite a youngish man (unlike the older man in the 1974 film.)
posted via 95.144.138.39 user MTD.
message 44205 - 08/19/18
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: 'Speedy' in SW
One comes across abandoned boats rotting in the mud or on the saltings along the East Coast. In my experience they rot in a uniform manner, so it would be surprising to find a boat which rotted like Speedy. If you search on ‘Thames barges rotting’ you find a lot of images which bear this out. I wonder whether Ransome was drawing upon the hulk in which the Breydon pilot lived. I’ve tried to find an image of this, but the Incredible Hulk gets in the way.

I don’t know whether there was much call for the pilot’s services. He seems to lead a leisurely life. His small contribution to the S&A books made me consider who makes the smallest contribution – perhaps the man (whom we never actually see) who compliments Roger on Swallow in S&A?

posted via 86.181.147.50 user RobinSelby.


message 44204 - 08/19/18
From: Robert Hill, subject: 2016 S&A movie on TV now
Just discovered that the recent S&A film (which I have not yet seen) is on British TV right now.

On BBC1, started at 1705 BST Sunday 19 Aug. Two-thirds over.

I'm in the middle of a DIY job. Will maybe try watching it on iPlayer later, and stop if I dislike it too much.
posted via 95.151.60.115 user eclrh.


message 44203 - 08/16/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Photos of Nancy Blackett at St Katherine's Dock
From the Nancy Blackett's Trust newsletter.
posted via 124.171.83.56 user mikefield.
message 44202 - 08/16/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: 'Speedy' in SW
Well, I don't know whether the cottage ever had an earlier name. But if I owned it, and given its fame, I couldn't possibly call it anything but Witch's Cottage.

[ Image ]

posted via 124.171.83.56 user mikefield.


message 44201 - 08/16/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: 'Speedy' in SW
I have to admit Dave I didn't know about this! If it was it wasn't obvious, I think another visit is called for.
posted via 95.144.138.39 user MTD.
message 44200 - 08/16/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: 'Speedy' in SW
Is the eel totem in the garden of the Witch's Cottage still there?

http://allthingsransome.net/locations/secretwater/Totem.jpg
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 44199 - 08/15/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: 'Speedy' in SW
Thanks for that Mike (particularly the photo), I've not been to Beaumont Quay for many years, shame to hear that is now in that state.

The new building at Witch's Quay has meant some of the quay elements seem to be missing, I'll have to dig out some photos I took in the 1990s.

As for the cottage name, did it ever have one? Something else to look for on my old photos!
posted via 95.144.138.39 user MTD.


message 44198 - 08/15/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Further road names in SW 'Town'
I had a very pleasant surprise this time last year when I visited and saw an "Arthur Ransome Way' street sign on what was clearly a new subdivision.

[ Image ]

posted via 124.171.83.56 user mikefield.


message 44197 - 08/15/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: 'Speedy' in SW
That's a good question, Mike. Given the length of time that's elapsed since SW was written, and the complete loss of your boy's boat in, say, the 30-odd years since he played on it, I wouldn't have thought it very likely that that vessel was Speedy's prototype.

I visited Beaumont Quay about a year ago myself and saw the almost-gone remains of an old boat sitting upright in the (silted-up) channel right near the quay itself. But I confess I never thought of its being Speedy's prototype, either.

By the way, I noticed that where the canal and lock were is pretty-well entirely unrecognisable now -- no sign of the lock at all, and the canal has been filled in after fifty yards. Unless you'd known about them you'd never have guessed they'd ever been there. (I also noticed that Witch's Cottage is called Thatch Cottage by its present owners.)

posted via 124.171.83.56 user mikefield.
message 44196 - 08/15/18
From: Jo, subject: Re: Windermer Car Ferry
Ah - a misunderstanding - sorry. I thought that Dave Thewlis was saying that the WEBCAM wasn't working.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user Jo.
message 44195 - 08/15/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: 'Speedy' in SW
As some of you know I live in the area of SW.

Yesterday myself, my wife and her youngest son (45) took a walk down Quay Lane for the first time in some years. Things are much the same, a new house has been built by the Quay (not to my taste), but fortunately Witch’s cottage is unchanged.

On our return to the main road my wife’s son (45) reminisced that in childhood he and his brother used cross the field to the left of the Quay (when you’re facing the backwaters) and play on the remains of a large boat (no longer there.) This would have been in he early 1980s,

He knows of my enthusiasm for AR but nothing of the plot of any of the books, I related to him about the wreck ‘Speedy’ in SW and began to wonder if anything is known of AR's original for it.
posted via 95.144.138.39 user MTD.


message 44194 - 08/14/18
From: David Maxwell, subject: Re: Donald Campbell's restored Bluebird set for Scotland run
Has someone restored Campbell's Jag that was painted the same color as the boat so that the two will be together again?
posted via 97.78.238.94 user DavidMaxwell.
message 44193 - 08/14/18
From: Andy, subject: Re: Windermer Car Ferry
Ah! That'll explain why, when I approached it with caution a weekend or two ago, while sailing down the lake, it didn't leap out in front of me!

Andy

posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.


message 44192 - 08/13/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Windermer Car Ferry
Thanks, Robin.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 44191 - 08/13/18
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Donald Campbell's restored Bluebird set for Scotland run
And a piece in the Guardian:
posted via 95.151.60.115 user eclrh.
message 44190 - 08/13/18
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Windermer Car Ferry
As you see from the link, the ferry was put out of action on 27 May by a fire. http://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/lakes/Passengers-and-crew-evacuated-from-Windermere-car-ferry-after-fire-234ee8a1-88c2-49a3-a725-f8d84ce25139-ds
It was reported on 11 August that the repair contract had just been awarded and that repairs had started, but with nothing firm about completion, so it's surprising if the ferry is back in action - http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/news/16413050.merseyside-maritime-company-wins-contract-to-repair-windermere-ferry/?ref=rss). It seems to involve rewiring plus new engine.


posted via 86.176.197.210 user RobinSelby.


message 44189 - 08/13/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Windermer Car Ferry
"Till October at least..." Presumably not an "in stock" item. Thanks!
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 44188 - 08/13/18
From: Peter Wagner, subject: Re: Windermer Car Ferry
Needs a new engine. Not expected back till at least October so I gather.
posted via 94.250.228.202 user PeterW.
message 44187 - 08/12/18
From: Jo, subject: Re: Windermer Car Ferry
It's working at the moment.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user Jo.
message 44186 - 08/12/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Windermer Car Ferry
Does anyone know the current status of the Windermere Car Ferry? I've look at the webcam (Freshwater Biological Association) periodically and the last several weeks it doesn't seem to be running. I saw something about work on the cable planned for a while ago but it didn't sound like an ongoing outage.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 44185 - 08/04/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: NUGGET of GOLD
When the prospectors go up from Mrs Tysons and Titty sees High Topps she could "hardly speak .... she knew she was looking at a Klondyke, an Alaska .... ". The later 19th-century saw gold-rushes in America (Alaska, California), Australia, Canada (the Yukon), and New Zealand (Otago and the West Coast; goldminers got their own Goldfields electorate in the 1860s). But the scene of the Yukon, Canada gold rush in 1897-99 is called Klondike not Klondyke according to Wikipedia!

The gold rushes were for alluvial gold where prospectors could (sometimes!) make their fortune with a pan or cradle to recover the gold among the rocks and stones (or floating gold dredges in some New Zealand rivers). Mining for gold meant mines and also stamper batteries to break up the ore, so requiring companies or syndicates.

I doubt if English law had to cope with alluvial gold and gold rushes, but can’t say for certain that there was no legal provision for "staking a claim" as the SADMC did! And while the Lake District did have many copper mines, I find it hard to imagine cartloads or truckloads (?) of copper ore leaving Jim and Timothy’s mine to be refined elsewhere!

posted via 203.96.136.210 user hugo.


message 44184 - 08/04/18
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Donald Campbell's restored Bluebird set for Scotland run
And now here she is on the water:
posted via 95.151.60.11 user eclrh.
message 44183 - 08/03/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: NUGGET of GOLD
I, too, have wondered if the interest in gold prospecting and ingot-casting came about because someone had read of the Klondyke gold rush. Ingots are certainly a dramatic presentation, and a good substitute when properly impressive nuggets are proving difficult to find. Any guesses what that book might have been? Something by Jack London, maybe?

Thank you, John Wilson, for answering a question I have long had: is staking a claim something that happens in English law? Partially growing up in the mountains of California, with gold and silver workings fairly common in the areas I hiked, the idea was completely natural to me, but it always seemed out of place in an English setting.

Alex
posted via 73.140.116.18 user Pitsligo.


message 44182 - 08/03/18
From: Robert Hill, subject: Donald Campbell's restored Bluebird set for Scotland run
BBC news item - see link
posted via 95.151.60.11 user eclrh.
message 44181 - 08/03/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Back To Something Serious
One example I like, from 'Great Northern?' I think, is Roger's being described as "having a pleasant feeling of naughtiness, to which he was well accustomed."


posted via 124.171.130.97 user mikefield.


message 44180 - 08/03/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: 'Nancy Blackett Avenue'
Thanks Mike. I saw 'Arthur Ransome Way' last year and took a photo of a sign. It's nice to know more AR street names are popping up.
posted via 124.171.130.97 user mikefield.
message 44179 - 08/01/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: NUGGET of GOLD
Hi All: Mostly the prospectors talk about finding "nuggets" eg "found a ten-ton nugget of pure gold” or "sometimes gold is found ... in nuggets" (Ch 10), except for "It’s a baby nugget" from Dick’s blowing (Ch 28). Otherwise they talk about "ingots" which if the material in the crucible had solidified would have been cone-shaped?

John and Nancy wanted to take to Slater Bob "enough gold dust to make a respectable ingot" (Ch 23) While Slater Bob had been prospecting in Africa with one of the Turners (Ch 3) I doubt if he had any experience in producing ingots though Dick is anxious to consult him! Later Nancy said "Making the ingot matters most of all" (Ch 29) but after the disaster "even if we don’t have time to smelt an ingot, the main thing is to prove the stuff is gold" (Ch 30).

When he returns Captain Flint dismisses the story of the Government officer prospector who did not return from WWI as just a myth! And Timothy does not know that the SAD Mining Co had staked their claim with a notice; perhaps one of them had read a novel about the Klondyke goldrush (staking a claim is not in English law)?

posted via 203.96.136.210 user hugo.


message 44178 - 08/01/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: 'Nancy Blackett Avenue'
I've posted a 'photo of the new road name off 'Arthur Ransome Way' on my Blog.
posted via 2.30.184.75 user MTD.
message 44177 - 07/30/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Corrected - Further road names in SW 'Town'
Since posting I did an online search and there are one or two women in the world named 'Nancy Blackett' assuming these are not an alias then it would be difficult to prove the name was unique, and as you say Peter it would have to be a trademark (but then knowing my local council it is the sort of mess they would get in to - the local branch of M & S in another 'town' down the coast is to close, the council bought the building it is in a few years back as a property 'investment'!)
posted via 2.30.184.75 user MTD.
message 44176 - 07/29/18
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Corrected - Further road names in SW 'Town'
Yes Alan, but don't overlook the likely award of legal costs in such a case - they would be a lot more than 1p. And also - instead of damages the Council might be compelled to rename the roads and take down the current signs.

All this is very unlikely, because the titles of books are not subject to copyright restrictions in the UK and US. However, titles can be registered as a trademark, and I do know that 'Swallows and Amazons' has been so registered and there are therefore restrictions on its use.

posted via 86.129.3.35 user Peter_H.


message 44175 - 07/27/18
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Corrected - Further road names in SW 'Town'
I don't know the law in this case, but the use of Nancy Blackett's name sounds more like celebration than infringement of copyright. Damages would be assessed at 1p.

posted via 78.33.14.82 user awhakim.
message 44174 - 07/27/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Corrected - Further road names in SW 'Town'
Since post about the road names I wonder what the position is of using the name of a fictional character still in copyright?

Were the literary executors for AR asked? Knowing the local council I doubt it!
posted via 2.30.184.75 user MTD.


message 44173 - 07/27/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Corrected - Further road names in SW 'Town'
Regular readers may remember that 18 months ago I posted that a new road in the 'town' of SW was named by the local council 'Arthur Ransome Way’.
In a recent copy of the local newspaper a public notice as been published by Essex County Council for 20 mph speed limits on not just 'Arthur Ransome Way' but roads connected to it - 'Secret Waters' , 'Swallows Way' and 'Nancy Blackett Avenue'. There are others as yet unnamed.
This is the first reference I have seen to these three roads, I presume this is in time for the completion and opening of an Aldi supermarket and M&S Foodstore later this year.
posted via 2.30.184.75 user MTD.
message 44172 - 07/27/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Further road names in SW 'Town'
Regular readers may remember that 18 months ago I posted that a new road in the 'town' of SW was named by the local council 'Arthur Ransome Way.

In a recent copy of the local newspaper a public notice as been published by Essex County Council for 20 mph speed limits on not just 'Arthur Ransome Way' but roads connected to it - 'Secret Waters' , 'Swallows Way' and 'Nancy Blackett Avenue'. There are others as yet unnamed.

This is the first reference I have seen to these two roads, I presume this is in time for the completion and opening of an Aldi supermarket and M&S Foodstore later this year.
posted via 2.30.184.75 user MTD.


message 44171 - 07/24/18
From: David Maxwell, subject: Re: Other authors was Re: References to AR in Nevil Shute's novels
My Bad, I was sure (without checking as I'm still at work on the west coast) that there was a letter from each in each others letters book. Oh well, memory is the 2nd thing to go!

posted via 97.78.238.94 user DavidMaxwell.
message 44170 - 07/24/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Other authors was Re: References to AR in Nevil Shute's novels
Tolkien mentions Ransome's comments in a letter to his publisher, but Ransome's letter itself is not included in the Tolkien Letters book.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44169 - 07/24/18
From: David Maxwell, subject: Re: Other authors was Re: References to AR in Nevil Shute's novels
I believe that the letters were in the letters books for both authors, JRRT and AR.

David
posted via 97.78.238.94 user DavidMaxwell.


message 44168 - 07/23/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Other authors was Re: References to AR in Nevil Shute's novels
You're probably aware that AR corresponded with JRR Tolkien about 'The Hobbit' when it was published, so there may be other such letters in archives somewhere!
posted via 2.30.184.75 user MTD.
message 44167 - 07/23/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: References to AR in Nevil Shute's novels
I didn't know that, I have to admit I've only read one of his books and that was many years ago. (Just checked and there is no 'Norway' in the index of SFM.)
posted via 2.30.184.75 user MTD.
message 44166 - 07/23/18
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: References to AR in Nevil Shute's novels
Don't forget when looking in indexes that Nevil Shute's real surname was Norway. There is a Norway Road in Portsmouth where he used to work.
I don't think he turns up in The Twilight Years diaries, but I'm away from home at present and can't look it up.
posted via 78.33.14.82 user awhakim.
message 44165 - 07/23/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Other authors was Re: References to AR in Nevil Shute's novels
I have always wondered whether Patrick O'Brian's naming of an elderly midshipman as Ransome in one of his early novels "The Golden Ocean". Ransome is described as a large man with reddish brown whiskers (not a moustache as such in those days. He has a very simple wit and laughs at weak jokes. At the time Patrick O'Brian's publisher was Rupert Hart-Davis, Ransome's friend and the man who edited is autobiography. My fantasy is that two of my favourite authors met and one wrote the other in as a minor character in his book.
Ransome did have a copy of The Golden Ocean in his library at one time, apparently and I donated a copy to the TARS library a number of years ago.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44164 - 07/23/18
From: David Maxwell, subject: Re: References to AR in Nevil Shute's novels
Aw Shoot, now I've got to go back and reread all the Shute novels again! My father was a great Shute fan and bought all his books in paperback to which I've added a couple of his non fiction works to it. Looking forward to the Ransome references!!

David
posted via 97.78.238.94 user DavidMaxwell.


message 44163 - 07/21/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: References to AR in Nevil Shute's novels
Nevil Shute also moored his yacht at Chichester Yacht Club (Birdham Pool area) I believe. It is entirely possible that he would have passed Ransome's yacht there, but I cannot find any mention of Shute in all the biographical works on Ransome.

I did meet a chap who was a firm fan of Shute, who revealed the Chichester point to me, but he had never found written mention of meeting/communicating with Ransome in all the Shute-related research he had done.


posted via 81.140.196.201 user Magnus.


message 44162 - 07/20/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: References to AR in Nevil Shute's novels
Interesting, I wonder if they ever met or exchanged letters (Shute is not in the index of 'Signalling From Mars'. Though I have a copy of PD owned and signed by Ian L Serraillier (author of the 'Silver Sword') which has a slip of paper with a self-portrait and signature of AR in pencil stuck in, and Serraillier is not in the SFM index either.)
posted via 2.30.184.75 user MTD.
message 44161 - 07/20/18
From: Mike Field, subject: References to AR in Nevil Shute's novels
In May I noted that there was a reference to Coot Club in Shute's novel The Rainbow And The Rose.

Re-reading more of Shute's novels in the interim, I've encountered a reference to (with a brief description of) Swallows And Amazons in No Highway, together with a mention of the fact that there are twelve novels in the S&A series.

And in Landfall Shute introduces the character Admiral Sir James Blackett KCB as C-in-C Portsmouth during WW2.

There doesn't seem to be much doubt that Shute knew and admired Ransome's works as much as the rest of us do.
posted via 124.171.64.156 user mikefield.


message 44160 - 07/17/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Back To Something Serious
Thanks Duncan, I must obviously re-read the letters!

I agree with your other points, on language (my view has always been they reflect the time being written about) and on imperialism that was one motivation to put a different perspective on Lovelock's views.
posted via 95.144.242.209 user MTD.


message 44159 - 07/17/18
From: Duncan, subject: Re: Back To Something Serious
Fascinating.

I must confess, when I first read AR's letters I was surprised how much he referred to the comedic elements of the SA books. He often is pleased that a section is funny, or concerned that something isn't funny enough. I hadn't really thought of them as comedic novels up to that point, although with reflection, there is rather a lot of gentle humour in there. (Although occasionally the humour is the one thing that rather dates the books, such as the handful of unfortunate sentences relating to race, which are usually included with intended humour).

On the imperialism point, I often (and perhaps too strongly for some) argue the opposite: that AR's work is furiously anti-imperialist and that anti-imperialism is the one clear constant in AR's politics throughout his life.

posted via 94.192.188.106 user Duncan.


message 44158 - 07/13/18
From: andy clayton, subject: Re: Back To Something Serious
one of my favourite incidents, is Capt Flint hanging a notice on the houseboat in WH, warning trespassers that they would be hanged. It was only when I came back to the book as an adult I twigged it was a practical joke on Peggy and the Swallows. As a child I thought he was genuinely miffed to find strangers making free with his boat. It's a lovely humorous incident.
posted via 46.208.150.98 user cousin_jack.
message 44157 - 07/12/18
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Back To Something Serious
I agree that there are lighter moments, in particular Roger often has gently comic scenes. Wearing two of everything before night sailing in SA comes to mind. Did he ask about wearing two ties? And, of course, his liking for food in general, and chocolate in particular. This is mentioned in CC.

"A Roger coming," said Port.
"A Roger," laughed Dorothea. "Give him some chocolate..."

posted via 81.178.162.117 user MartinH.


message 44156 - 07/12/18
From: David Maxwell, subject: Re: Back To Something Serious
The books are not Terry Pratchett funny but as pointed out, they do have their lighter moments! I've sometimes thought that the addition of Dick and Dot added more humor than the Swallows and Amazons by themselves.
posted via 97.78.238.94 user DavidMaxwell.
message 44155 - 07/12/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Back To Something Serious
Ed Kiser,
That is the sort of thing I meant when I said that I enjoyed Ransome's gentle humor. He doesn't write comedic episodes, but he does poke a little fun at his characters and the situations they sometimes get into.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44154 - 07/12/18
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Back To Something Serious
"What? What? Oh, it's you, Dot. You did give me a jump."

"Well, you ought to hang out a notice when you're not there.
-----------

In WINTER HOLIDAY, If not a belly laugh, at least a big grin.
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 44153 - 07/12/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Back To Something Serious
The humour aspect is a difficult one, in my extended review (on All Things Ransome) I mentioned as a child I found the 'Jennings and Derbyshire' and 'William' books funny (laugh out loud sometimes) but never Ransome.

If not the humour aspect what is it that puts Lovelock's book on your "Not to be reread" list?
posted via 95.144.242.209 user MTD.


message 44152 - 07/12/18
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Back To Something Serious
You are a braver man than I am, Mike. I read the book and put it on the list of "Not to be reread". But I do disagree with you about the humour. Dorothea's novels are clearly a running joke, and PM has been described as "AR's great comic novel". Kirsty Nichol Findlay gave a talk with that title at the TARS Literary Weekend in 2005.
Not laugh-out-loud perhaps, but definitely raising a smile.
posted via 86.148.217.149 user awhakim.
message 44151 - 07/10/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Back To Something Serious
Thanks Adam, good to know I'm not on my own in these second (and third) thoughts!
posted via 2.25.135.36 user MTD.
message 44150 - 07/10/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Back To Something Serious
Interesting commentary. I, too, was dissatisfied with Lovelock's book and reading your post, I think that there is very little outright laugh out loud comedy but a good deal of gentle humour in Ransome's writing.

Again it may be a matter for interpretation, but I do find the S&A books, as opposed to the Broads books, tend to maintain the "game" of explorers and natives a lot longer and harp on the theme more than I suspect real children such as myself would have done. A good starting point for adventures but I think carried a bit far by Ransome.

I do agree that the books do not exhibit a really "imperialist" mindset in my opinion. Exploration is for adventure, not conquest or exploitation. Apart from Pigeon Post but it is not the local people being exploited, just the mineral wealth.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 44149 - 07/09/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Back To Something Serious
I've recently re-read Julian Lovelock's book on the Ransome canon and given it some further thought.
posted via 2.25.135.36 user MTD.
message 44148 - 07/01/18
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Fire on High Tops, or rather Saddleworth Moor (near Manchester UK)
I have just been speaking to my Great-Niece (shades of the GA) who lives within walking distance of Winter Hill, where the latest fire has taken hold. She says it shows no sign of dying down yet, though fortunately for her, the wind is blowing the smoke towards Blackpool and away from Bolton.
A young man was arrested for arson, but reports now say he has been released without charge.
They can see the smoke of Saddleworth in the distance, but that seems to be reducing at last.
posted via 86.148.217.164 user awhakim.
message 44147 - 06/30/18
From: Jo, subject: Re: Some Not Too Serious Speculation!
Not these days, Alan. A female couple of my acquaintance have just had a baby. I know, don't ask....
posted via 84.92.123.32 user Jo.
message 44146 - 06/29/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Some Not Too Serious Speculation!
That it is the problem when some of the characters have 'real life' inspirations!
posted via 2.25.135.36 user MTD.
message 44145 - 06/29/18
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Fire on High Tops, or rather Saddleworth Moor (near Manchester UK)
There hve been some very atmospheric pictures showing the moon rising over the fire, such as the one at the top of this set:
posted via 109.180.192.221 user eclrh.
message 44144 - 06/29/18
From: David Maxwell, subject: Re: A murder averted
Well, I just finished the book on Tuesday. I knew the general story of the breakup of the Ottoman Empire but not all the details provided in "A Line in the Sand". A good book and it does help understand partly how the Middle East has turned into what it is today! The Arthur Ransome bit brings it to life even more.

David
posted via 97.78.238.94 user DavidMaxwell.


message 44143 - 06/29/18
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: He Did Mean to go to Sea
To make a voyage of any significant length in an Optimist is a great achievement, though a 12 year old would probably feel more comfortable in something like a Topper.

posted via 81.178.162.117 user MartinH.
message 44142 - 06/29/18
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Some Not Too Serious Speculation!
I met Daisy's daughter some years ago, who lived near me. That rather spoils one bit of your theory!
posted via 86.148.217.218 user awhakim.
message 44141 - 06/29/18
From: Peter Hyland, subject: He Did Mean to go to Sea
A leader in The Times today (29 June) reports that a boy of 12 has sailed from the Isle of Wight to Cherbourg single-handed (a voyage of 60 miles) in 14 hours 21 minutes. The boat was an Optimist, i.e. very small (8 foot). Was he inspired by John Walker in ‘We Didn’t Mean…’ ? Maybe not, as this young sailor is French. And his father was following in a larger boat. But he was severely seasick several times, so he had the ‘Susan’ experience as well. It’s got to be a first-rate Ransomeian achievement.
posted via 86.156.56.230 user Peter_H.
message 44140 - 06/28/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Some Not Too Serious Speculation!
I saw the one arguing Susan would marry Jim, didn't seem convincing to me. But of course that's just my view!
posted via 2.25.135.36 user MTD.
message 44139 - 06/28/18
From: Jo, subject: Re: Some Not Too Serious Speculation!
I totally agree that John would marry Peggy not Nancy. And yes, to my surprise I'm with you on Nancy and Daisy. (I see in a comment that Mike Jones links tomboyishness with suspicions of lesbianism - I really can't agree. But she is streets ahead of John - they are colleagues but no way would she fancy him. Only Tom, and Daisy, are anywhere near in her class). Meanwhile, I love the thought of Dick at Bletchley!
Someone years ago argued in an article that Susan would marry Jim Brading as he clearly needs looking after. And the same author suggested that Titty had a very difficult romantic life, with her sensitivity, falling madly in love and having painful break-ups.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user Jo.
message 44138 - 06/28/18
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Some Not Too Serious Speculation!
I too have long speculated on how Ransome's characters might turn out as they mature. Some of my thoughts have been published as fan fiction, but I will leave it to the readers to determine which are mine.

As few childhood friendships continue to become long-term adult relationships I have not paired off many of the S&As, though sometimes I wonder about Dick and Titty or Nancy and Tom (an fortuitous meeting with Tom serving as a junior medical officer).

How about Jim Turner going to Malaya as a temporary manager on an old friend's rubber plantation and being stuck there by the outbreak of war and later having to escape following the Japanese invasion? He could use all his knowledge of the sea and small craft to escape in a native boat.
posted via 81.178.162.117 user MartinH.


message 44137 - 06/28/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Fire on High Tops, or rather Saddleworth Moor (near Manchester UK)
Moorland fires, either started by natural causes (lightning etc.) or human carelessness or mischief, are not uncommon after a prolonged drought on any of the upland moors in England. The top hamper, grass, heather, bracken and gorse can dry out and is then easily ignited and spreads.

I am sure Ransome would have seen wildfires during his residence in the Lake District but I doubt that there was any single occurrence which provoked his description in PP.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 44136 - 06/28/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Fire on High Tops, or rather Saddleworth Moor (near Manchester UK)
After posting my last post I was listening to BBC radio news, a reporter was talking to people in the Saddleworth area. She interviewed some people she met with cardboard boxes about to venture on to the moors to 'rescue' any animals that may be in danger.

During the interview a member of the fire services came along and recommended they didn't because of the changing winds and as in his experience animals had a better survival instinct than humans! The reporter added at the end of the report that some went anyway and found nothing.

I was immediately reminded of the hedgehog that survived the fire in PP, is this, as I posed before, AR drawing upon his own experiences?
posted via 2.25.135.36 user MTD.


message 44135 - 06/27/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Fire on High Tops, or rather Saddleworth Moor (near Manchester UK)
I've seen it on news reports (and how awful it is) but not made this connection.

Firefighters interviewed yesterday were describing how there were places you could not reach with hoses and they just had to go in and stamp with their boots on still smouldering heather etc.

Did AR witness such an event (as with the freezing of the lake) or was it just a constant fear in hot dry weather?
posted via 2.25.135.36 user MTD.


message 44134 - 06/27/18
From: Woll, subject: Fire on High Tops, or rather Saddleworth Moor (near Manchester UK)
The images of the fire at Saddleworth Moor give a graphic view of High Tops must have looked like.
posted via 81.174.185.242 user Woll.
message 44133 - 06/26/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Some Not Too Serious Speculation!
Yes, the 'missing chapter' does raise some questions (serious ones as AR did like to keep the reader fully informed and not leave loose ends - as with the fish in BS).

I hadn't speculated about ML (or PD) being meta-fictions but there is some scope there too!
posted via 2.25.135.36 user MTD.


message 44132 - 06/26/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Some Not Too Serious Speculation!
Thanks Alex, I have to say it has taken me quite awhile to make them public!
posted via 2.25.135.36 user MTD.
message 44131 - 06/26/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Some Not Too Serious Speculation!
It's always grand to see what fans envision for the cast of AR's books! I have an entirely different version (of course!) secreted away on my computer --but I think I may like some of your predictions better than my own.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 44130 - 06/26/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Some Not Too Serious Speculation!
Congratulations on interweaving the subsequent lives of the characters so imaginatively.

Two thoughts of my own:-

First, I think Jim Turner and Mary Walker start an affair in the course of SD, while Commander Walker is safely in the Far East, Bridget is in the capable hands of nurse, and the Swallows are camping on the other side of the lake.

Secondly, just as AR defies expectation by making the Farland twins non-identical, and Dum and Dee very similar but not twins, I think that Nancy would defy expectations derived from her tomboy manner by proving vigorously heterosexual. AR hints as much in the "missing chapter" between pages 178 and 209 of the first edition of GN? when she and John spend the day alone together.

And what happens when Miss Lee, driven out by the Communists, arrives in England and encounters Jim Turner again?
posted via 88.105.95.202 user Mike_Jones.


message 44129 - 06/26/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Some Not Too Serious Speculation!
As a change from my usual serious analysis of AR's work I've posted a speculative piece on my blog.
posted via 2.30.184.122 user MTD.
message 44128 - 06/25/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: NUGGET of GOLD
The miners knew that Captain Flint was not due back home for several weeks. He was still on the other side of the world, or on a slow boat. There was no hurry to run home with a single pinch of gold dust as proof. Why not stay and do the job properly?

I haven't checked my book, but I bet it was Nancy who put forward the idea of a big solid lump of gold, wanting to impress. She would not be happy with half-measures!
posted via 81.140.196.201 user Magnus.


message 44127 - 06/24/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: NUGGET of GOLD
They use the terms nugget and ingot when discussing the gold. As far as I know, a nugget is a natural piece of gold metal found in a lump whereas an ingot is a manufactured piece of gold in a regular shape and usually a standard weight. So the aim of the exercise was really to produce an ingot as they found gold coloured powder in a quartz seam rather than lumps or nuggets of gold.

Either way I think that the idea that merely a small pinch or two of gold dust was not considered dramatic enough and a good sized solid lump of it would be more impressive and besides it allowed Ransome to pass on his knowledge of charcoal making,
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 44126 - 06/24/18
From: Ed Kiser, subject: NUGGET of GOLD
In PIGEON POST, the miners wanted to make a nugget of gold so as
to have something to show Captain Flint when he returned as proof
of the presence of a gold mine near by so he would not want to go
off on a wild goose chase looking elsewhere. This involved a
"blast furnace" to get the gold dust hot enough to melt and
hopefully cool to form that nugget. The furnace required
charcoal as fuel, which they made burning a pile of wood,
following the example they saw of the Charcoal Burners
professional preparation of charcoal.

The problem with these two processes is that involved a FIRE.
Mrs. Tyson was greatly afraid of what a fire would do to their
area, including her house. Seeing their efforts at charcoal
burning, she was quite alarmed and wanted them to cease this
dangerous process and go home. So when the fire did start, from
a totally unrelated cause, she was angry and accused them of
starting this disasterous fire.

However, after the blast furnace was finally cooled, they found
the gold had all gone, lost, the crucible broken into fragments.
All that work was for nothing. But they went back to the mine
and panned a little bit more for Dick to take to Beckfoot to
test. It was this little sample that Captain Flint saw, and was
quite pleased to find it to be rich copper ore.

All it took to convince him was a tiny pinch of the metal.

Why was it thought so necessary to convert that "gold dust" into
a NUGGET?

Of course, if they had gone home with that first pinch of panned
dust, the last third of the book would not have been needed. The
suspense of the charcoal burning and the blast furnace cooking
would be missing from the plot. And when that fire did start,
they would not have been on hand to save Timothy, and to send
Sappho home with the call for help with the fire.

So it made quite a dramatic build up, the anticipation of
creating that nugget, which turned out to be not needed after
all, but it made it a great story.

posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 44125 - 06/14/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: A murder averted
Agreed. But there's cover in crowds, too. If everybody is suspect it's harder to isolate a target.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 44124 - 06/13/18
From: David Maxwell, subject: Re: A murder averted
Oh well, another book to go and buy. Got it on order already and am looking forward to reading it!
posted via 97.78.238.94 user DavidMaxwell.
message 44123 - 06/13/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: A murder averted
Exactly, Adam.
posted via 121.45.211.186 user mikefield.
message 44122 - 06/13/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: A murder averted
Exactly, Adam.
posted via 121.45.211.186 user mikefield.
message 44121 - 06/13/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: A murder averted
Being a journalist can get you accused of espionage, even if you are not a spy.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44120 - 06/13/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: A murder averted
I'm not sure if being a journalist is a good "cover" for an intelligence agent, but it's certainly a helpful one. You can and are even obliged to ask questions that, in anyone else, would seem not only prying but suspect.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 44119 - 06/13/18
From: Alan Hakim, subject: A murder averted
Reading a book about the politics of Palestine and the Middle East, A Line in the Sand by James Barr, I came across a startling event. In 1949, W F Stirling, a former associate of Lawrence of Arabia, by then The Times correspondent in Damascus, was attacked in his home by two assassins, who shot him six times. It was widely believed that Stirling also worked for MI6, and the assassins had been encouraged by France.
Miraculously, Stirling did not die. He had a friend visiting, none other than Ernest Altounyan, who operated on him within 30 minutes, extracted two of the six bullets, and decided the other four were best left in Stirling. At which point the book goes off into a startling digression about the Swallows and AR, pointing out that AR too was believed to have been a British agent.
As had Ernest, working with Stirling in Syria during WW2.
posted via 92.3.254.195 user awhakim.
message 44118 - 06/12/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: New draft maps of the Broads - for comments please
Ha. Exactly what we did -- anchored out in the Broad all night on a mudweight because we couldn't get a berth at the staithe. (We got up early and motored in next morning as soon as we saw someone leaving, then stayed another day.) You're lucky to be in the area, Peter. I'm afraid that last year's visit will have been my last.
posted via 121.45.221.3 user mikefield.
message 44117 - 06/12/18
From: Peter Wagner, subject: Re: New draft maps of the Broads - for comments please
Thanks for enlightening me. I didn't see the comments in the lower left about the two broads as the text was rather small and difficult to read. Yes, many people do refer to Malthouse as Ranworth Broad probably for the reasons you say. We have frequented the Malsters many times and always enjoyed it. We tend to moor out in the broad under mud weight as it can get busy and noisy by the staithe. We then row/sail across in the small sailing dinghy we tow.
posted via 94.250.228.202 user PeterW.
message 44116 - 06/11/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: New draft maps of the Broads - for comments please
Well spotted in both cases, Peter.

Taking your points in reverse, yep, the new Candle Dyke was indeed Kendal Dyke when Dick quanted his way into it. I don't know how or when the named got changed, but I assume the new name is a lazy corruption of the old one.

Regarding Malthouse/Ranworth, one of the footnotes (down near the scale) says that this was the way Ransome named them (actually incorrectly, as you say). Because the maps are based on his two Broads books I've hung on to the names the way he used them.

I think Malthouse Broad is actually often known as Ranworth Broad because it contains Ranworth Staithe and the few houses that comprise Ranworth -- which of course weren't on the 'other' Broad because it was private (as it still is, indeed.) But note that the pub that's there was the Malsters Arms (now just the Malsters), not the Ranworth Arms or whatever.

When I was there last year I made a point of asking the people at the observation place on the (real) Ranworth Broad about this, and they told me that very many people confused the two.

But your comments are very valuable, and many thanks for them, because they show you gave critical thought to it and that was exactly what I wanted.
posted via 121.45.221.3 user mikefield.


message 44115 - 06/11/18
From: Peter Wagner, subject: Re: New draft maps of the Broads - for comments please
I'm only familiar with the northern Broads as I've sailed them umpteen times, but I think you have Malthouse and Ranworth Broads interchanged. Just above Potter Heigham you have Kendal Dyke. This is now know as Candle Dyke - not sure if this name is a modern corruption of Kendal Dyke though.

posted via 94.250.228.202 user PeterW.
message 44114 - 06/09/18
From: Mike Field, subject: New draft maps of the Broads - for comments please
Long-term TarBoard contributors might remember some years ago that I posted draft maps of the Broads for comment. The intention was to have them corrected before they were added to 'All Things Ransome', to join my earlier maps for downloading.

Life has intervened for quite some time, but comments I received then were duly noted and amendments made accordingly. New drafts have now been uploaded to my website, and I would be most grateful if the eagle eyes of TarBoarders could point out any details that remain to be corrected.

By and large, I have attempted to draw the maps to portray the district as it would have been in the 1930s, and confined myself to showing those part of roads and railways that then existed and that were either known to have been used by the children, or where they were located in proximity to the various waterways. (So, for instance, the road from Acle to Yarmouth is only shown near each end, not for its full length.) My intention in doing this is to keep the focus on the Broads and the rivers themselves.

AR drew two maps for his Broads books -- of the northern rivers and the southern rivers respectively -- and after some experimentation I determined that this was indeed the best way to do them. So here they are. (I apologise for the fuzziness -- these are simply screen grabs. The final versions will be better.) Any comments would be most gratefully received.

Northern Rivers draft map

Southern Rivers draft map

posted via 121.45.221.3 user mikefield.
message 44113 - 06/09/18
From: Mark Purtill, subject: Re: "In the Footsteps of the Swallows and Amazons" query
It seems Alan is right. I was at the IAGM, though I didn't take the book. However, on one of the walks (the copper mines walk, which turned out to not have an official guide), one of the other members had a copy and I asked her about it. Unfortunately I didn't get her name, but she said that in general the walks are still very usable, though there may be a few missing landmarks here and there.
posted via 50.54.218.248 user Zeggpold.
message 44112 - 06/08/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Dick & Dorothea
More changes in relations in the books:
PP: "Squashy Hat" their hated rival in the search for gold who turns out to be the missing Timothy
BS: The Coots are regarded as guilty most of the people in Horning
GN: The McGintys, father and son, who become allies at the end


posted via 202.154.143.166 user hugo.


message 44111 - 06/07/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: 'Sea Bear's' binoculars
By George, they've got it!

Thanks, Adam and Peter, you've solved it for me. There's no joint-focussing knob as such -- each eyepiece is focussed separately. And the knob at the front has nothing to do with focussing at all -- it just locks the barrels the right distance apart to suit the user.

I'm glad I got up this morning....
posted via 124.171.137.184 user mikefield.


message 44110 - 06/07/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: 'Sea Bear's' binoculars
I have my grandfather's binoculars which are pre WW2 Zeiss model and look a lot like the one in the picture. The eyepieces are individually focussed, there is no common focus of both eyepieces together.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44109 - 06/07/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Dick & Dorothea
Changes in relations between groups is a theme in several of the books:
SA: The Swallows and Amazons are initially enemies, as is Captain Flint and the Swallows
SW: The Swallows & Amazons and the Mastodon/Don; then after they become friends the Eels (Daisy) initially see the Swallows & Amazons as enemies
CC: though there is no initial rivalry between the Ds and the Coots
WH: The Swallows and the Ds (as mentioned). Dorothy is self-conscious about the others' opinions of them, unlike Dick.
Hugh Brogan refers somewhere to the "humane comedy" of the books, alluding to the 19th-century novels of Honoré de Balzac?
I certainly go back to PM, perhaps through having to wear glasses through school like Dick!

posted via 202.154.143.166 user hugo.
message 44108 - 06/07/18
From: Peter Wagner, subject: Re: 'Sea Bear's' binoculars
I suspect the knob is just a locking screw to set the interpupillary distance. Each eyepiece appears to have its own knurled focussing ring.
posted via 94.250.228.202 user PeterW.
message 44107 - 06/06/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Dick & Dorothea
It strikes me as very likely. In my (admittedly limited) experience, the young of our species are refreshingly curious about each other without so much of the preconceptions as the adults. I think AR's representation of the Ds' skating ability, and how it affected the others' acceptance of the newcomers, was both a plausible reinforcement of the story's realism and a wonderful nuance for the story.
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.
message 44106 - 06/06/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: 'Sea Bear's' binoculars
Thank(s), Peter. :) I did a google search for images of Old Binoculars as a result of your comment. Of all the photos that came up (dozens), all the straight refractive ones (telescopic? -- I forget the correct name) seemed to have focussing knobs in the middle, half-way along the barrels. And all the true (prismatic) binoculars had them where I would have expected to see them, also in the middle but closer to the eye-pieces. It looks like the purpose in all cases is to move the eye-piece tubes in and out so as to adjust the focus.

There were however a couple of pairs (including a correct-vintage pre-war Zeiss) that more-or-less fit the 'Sea Bear' description, with the focussing knob at the front of the instrument. Frustratingly though, I still can't work out how the damn' knob works.... Surely it controls the eye-pieces? But how? It only seems to be fastened to the body....

.
posted via 124.171.154.201 user mikefield.
message 44105 - 06/06/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Dick & Dorothea
While the Walkers are a delightful family, is it not likely that the dynamic Nancy would have been intrigued by the very different Callums, with their academic London background so alien from her own, and so unlike the Swallows'?
posted via 82.132.216.196 user Mike_Jones.
message 44104 - 06/06/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: AR downloads was Re: AR Reference No. 2
Adam is correct in implying that AR's books are out of copyright in Canada. They are also out of copyright in very many other countries as well. But on the other hand they are still copyright in the US, the UK, and other countries too. If you want to download these books legally, you should check what the copyright law actually is in your country.

I don't think anyone is encouraging anyone else to violate copyright laws anywhere, but because this is actually quite an important question in its own right I've made a separate post on the topic. See the link below. There is also a link in that post to the copyright periods that apply in over 200 other countries. Your comments on that post are welcome.

posted via 124.171.154.201 user mikefield.
message 44103 - 06/06/18
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: 'Sea Bear's' binoculars
I think what has happened is that AR has, probably inadvertently, shortened the mounting tubes for the eye-pieces. I had binoculars like these once - prismatic, and focussed by wide milled rings just behind the eye-pieces. I think they were French, but I have just seen an online image of old Russian binoculars (or a Russian binocular as I think is more correct, if pedantic) and they (it) looks very like the one(s) AR drew.
posted via 86.154.76.187 user Peter_H.
message 44102 - 06/05/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Copyright, Distributed Proofreaders, The Faded Page, and the Gutenberg Press.
I posed a question three days ago (below) about 'Sea Bear's' binoculars. No-one posted a reply before the thread was diverted to another topic, so I assume that no-one has any more knowledge about those binoculars than I do. (I'm still hoping, however.)

However, Adam's comments there about copyright are important and I think deserve a thread on their own, which is why I'm posting this.

The original intention of "copyright" was to protect the author's rights to a work for his/her benefit and the benefit of their immediate beneficiaries. Formulators of the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works, signed originally in 1886, considered that the value of a copyright would have dropped (and also been diluted) sufficiently within a period of half a century of the author's death that it could then be allowed to lapse without very much, or any, detriment to the rights of the author or his estate.

The Berne Convention is concerned with the intellectual property rights of a variety of such works, but here I'm only concerned with literary works, and in particular with the written works of AR. The Convention stipulates a minimum period of 50 years for a written work's protection after the death of the author, or of the work's publication (essentially, whichever comes last). Countries are free to increase this minimum period within their own territories should they wish. Canada, complying with the original Convention, sticks with the stipulated 50 years. Other countries have extended their copyright periods up to double that. Thanks to Walt Disney's wanting to further protect its products, and Sonny Bono's trying to get 'perpetual copyright' (!) for his own stuff -- they were both Republicans and therefore protectionist :) -- the US now has its own "Mickey Mouse Protection Act". (Really.) This Act extends copyright to 95 years in the US (and for some works to 120 years from creation). In the EU, some works that had been in the public domain have become retrospectively re-copyrighted by individual acts of individual parliaments....

In my view, this matter of "copyrighting" has now become a minefield of dogs' breakfasts (no, Roger didn't write that) and a new, universally-applicable, Berne Convention is badly required.

Now to the matter at hand. Distributed Proofreaders was founded in 2000 as an independent site to assist Project Gutenberg in producing public domain works for reading electronically. It became an official Project Gutenberg site in 2002. In particular, Distributed Proofreaders Canada (DPC, independent, founded in 2007, for which I've been working and to which I'll now refer specifically) first uploads its completed works to The Faded Page website, from where they eventually go to Gutenberg Canada. Works are made available in a variety of electronic formats, including UTF-8, HTML, Epub, Mobi, and PDF. Canada's is the most active proof-reading organisation I think because of its shortest or equal-shortest copyright-protection period, and hence its potential inclusion of the largest number of public-domain works.

Proofreading for the organisation is carried out by members all over the world, demonstrating the utility and beauty of the internet for facilitating cooperative work. The process consists firstly of locating works of interest to the instigators that are in the public domain in Canada, scanning them using OCR, then uploading the scanned documents to DPC. At that point they're then made available to anyone anywhere who wants to help, whereupon each individual page is proof-read three times and proof-formatted twice before being made available to other readers for "smooth reading" (looking for the slight possibility of remaining errors, and for the general flow of the work). After that it's released by its project manager and made available on The Faded Page, and eventually Gutenberg Canada, for free download by anyone, anywhere.

As Adam rightly points out, because of that minefield of different copyright restrictions referred to, The Faded Page draws the attention of copyright issues to its readers --

"These books are public domain in Canada (because we follow the Canadian copyright laws), but if you are in another country, you should satisfy yourself that you are not breaking the copyright laws of your own country by downloading them."

So to wrap this up as far as AR's works are concerned, this means that, as he died in 1967, his twelve S&A books are indeed all candidates for availability on that site. (In fact, nine have already been released and the remainder are presently being worked on.) But 'Coots In The North' will not yet be available because, being published posthumously in 1988, its Canadian copyright will not expire until 2038.

If you live in Canada or any other country that recognises a fifty-year copyright period, electronic download of all twelve books will shortly be possible, and legal. If you live in the UK or the USA, download will of course still be possible but will not be legal; elsewhere it may not; so if you download anyway you will take on yourself whatever risk that might entail.

This is such an important and now complicated topic that any constructive comments would be most welcome.

posted via 124.171.134.77 user mikefield.
message 44101 - 06/05/18
From: Mike Field, subject: 'Sea Bear's' binoculars (was "The Faded Page")
No-one posted a reply to my original question about binoculars before this thread was diverted to another topic, so I assume that no-one has any more knowledge about those binoculars than I do.

However, Adam's comments about copyright are important and I think deserve a thread on their own, which is why I've posted a new topic, Copyright, Distributed Proofreaders, The Faded Page, and the Gutenberg Press. I'd be grateful if anyone who wanted to further pursue the question of copyright do so there, rather than here, just in case we get a late binocular-aficionado who can help me with the original question.
posted via 124.171.134.77 user mikefield.


message 44100 - 06/05/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Dick & Dorothea
When I first read WH (and then CC and BS) many many years ago I was very taken by it not just being set in a proper winter with plenty of snow, but with the introduction of Dick and Dorothea.

As has been speculated upon in various publications, these two are seen as representations of two sides of AR’s own self. For me, particularly in WH it is that they were ‘outsiders’ being welcomed in to the group – especially by Nancy, which is some ways goes against the person AR had previously portrayed her as.

They are both, I think, my favourite characters and I always enjoy reading how amazed all the others are when they begin skating of the frozen tarn in WH, removing any doubts as to why they should not join the expedition.
posted via 95.144.241.223 user MTD.


message 44099 - 06/05/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: "The Faded Page" was Re: 'Sea Bear's' binoculars
By one of those quirks of fate I came across this Website the day before the post appeared here, and I wondered about it's status. Thanks for explaining what the position is.
posted via 95.144.241.223 user MTD.
message 44098 - 06/05/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: "The Faded Page" and copyright
New Zealand still has a copyright period of "50 years after death" like Canada rather than 70 years, though the United States and the European Union have gone to 70 years (which will cover most Tarboaders, apart from Canada and New Zealand). And looking at the Wikipedia list below, some European countries like Belarus and Monaco plus various African, Asian and Oceanian countries (eg Fiji) are still 50y. A few have gone for longer copyright: India (60y), Ivory Coast (99y) and Mexico (100y).
posted via 202.154.143.166 user hugo.
message 44097 - 06/05/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Re:
RE

posted via 202.154.143.166 user hugo.
message 44096 - 06/05/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: "The Faded Page" was Re: 'Sea Bear's' binoculars
The link that Mike Field has posted for "The Faded Page" takes you to a Canadian website. Under Canadian copyright law books published before 1968 are out of copyright IN CANADA. They are not out of copyright elsewhere in the world.

The site has a warning "These books are public domain in Canada (because we follow the Canadian copyright laws), but if you are in another country, you should satisfy yourself that you are not breaking the copyright laws of your own country by downloading them."

All Things Ransome and TarBoard are not domiciled in Canada and we work very hard to ensure that we do not infringe on anyone's copyright. Therefore we do not want anyone to believe that we support illegal downloading of material.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 44095 - 06/05/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: AR downloads was Re: AR Reference No. 2
The link that Mike Field has posted for "AR downloads" takes you to a Canadian website. Under Canadian copyright law books published before 1968 are out of copyright IN CANADA. They are not out of copyright elsewhere in the world.

The site has a warning "These books are public domain in Canada (because we follow the Canadian copyright laws), but if you are in another country, you should satisfy yourself that you are not breaking the copyright laws of your own country by downloading them."

All Things Ransome and TarBoard are not domiciled in Canada and we work very hard to ensure that we do not infringe on anyone's copyright. Therefore we do not want anyone to believe that we support illegal downloading of material.

posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 44094 - 06/03/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: "Crag"fast sheep rescued
And here's another sheep rescue, even more dramatic:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cornwall-44347000

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 44093 - 06/03/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Great northern divers
Photos Dick might have taken on the loch....
posted via 124.171.134.77 user mikefield.
message 44092 - 06/03/18
From: Mike Field, subject: 'Sea Bear's' binoculars
It doesn't seem to matter how often I read the books, I always come away with something new.

I'm presently proof-reading 'Great Northern?' for The Faded Page (where most of the AR novels are now available for free download), and I've just noticed a sketch of binoculars as a chapter-break, presumably binoculars from the Sea Bear. Their focussing knob is at the forward end of the glasses, not near the eye-pieces where it has always been in any binoculars I've ever seen. Surely they didn't work by moving the objective lenses, instead of the eye-pieces? Can anyone shed any light on the construction of this particular instrument please?

[ Image ]

posted via 124.171.134.77 user mikefield.


message 44091 - 06/01/18
From: Lankyflier1400, subject: Re: "In the Footsteps of the Swallows and Amazons" query
I realise that this is a bit late to be useful for the TARS AGM, but I have been using the book recently as a guide to walk around sites relating to Arthur Ransome and it is still remarkably accurate. I suppose things don't change very quickly in the south lakes! There are a few minor changes. For instance, the Dogs House has now been refurbished and looks liveable in with a new window and door. Also, there is a Swallows and Amazons carving of Captain Flint walking the plank near the lake on the shore at low bank ground farm.
posted via 81.141.171.44 user Lankyflier1400.
message 44090 - 05/26/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: "Crag"fast sheep rescued
That just confirms my opinion that sheep are the moths of the animal world, just as pigeons are the sheep of the avian world and moths are the sheep of the insect world...
posted via 124.171.134.77 user mikefield.
message 44089 - 05/26/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: AR Reference No. 2
Dave, this book is about a series of rescue attempts in a light plane by an airline pilot of his retired flying instructor, who has himself flown a rescue mission in Western Tasmania but crashed. In Shute's sometimes-typical and somewhat-metaphysical style, the older pilot's life is lived in dreams by the younger one.

In spite of its geographical setting, this is not particularly an 'Australian' story like, say, The Far Country, Beyond The Black Stump, In The Wet, or others, and nor is it one of his best stories anyway, but it's still a good read. (Let me know if you can't find a copy and I'll mail mine down.)

By the way, and just to get back on the AR theme, nine of the twelve AR books are now available for free download as e-books from The Faded Page; with the remaining three currently being proof-read and to be available shortly.

Cheers, Mike

posted via 124.171.134.77 user mikefield.
message 44088 - 05/26/18
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: AR Reference No. 2
I thought that I had read most of Shute's stories (a favourite author), but I don't recall 'The Rainbow and The Rose'. What is a brief outline of the story?
Dave
posted via 120.158.157.3 user David.
message 44087 - 05/26/18
From: Robert Hill, subject: "Crag"fast sheep rescued
BBC news - see link
posted via 109.180.193.215 user eclrh.
message 44086 - 05/25/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: AR Reference No. 2
... and in a slightly different vein I've just finished reading Nevil Shute's 1958 novel The Rainbow And The Rose, on the very last page of which the narrator is quoted as reading Coot Club to his young son at bed-time.
posted via 124.171.134.77 user mikefield.
message 44085 - 05/22/18
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: "In the Footsteps of the Swallows and Amazons" query
I for one have never been a registered user of Facebook, Twitter or any of the other sites usually meant by the phrase "social media". I stick to special-purpose forums such as Tarboard.
posted via 109.180.191.172 user eclrh.
message 44084 - 05/21/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: "In the Footsteps of the Swallows and Amazons" query
I agree, David. TarBoard can go quiet for a couple of weeks at a time, and then fire right back up, as you say -- and indeed as it has just now.

And as far as FaceBook goes, despite missing some lovely stuff about the Broads and about narrowboats, I left it forever with few regrets after the Cambridge Analytica scandal.

For me, TarBoard has always been, and will continue to be, the go-to site for all things Ransome.

[ Image ]

posted via 124.171.134.77 user mikefield.


message 44083 - 05/21/18
From: David Maxwell, subject: Re: "In the Footsteps of the Swallows and Amazons" query
It seems that from time to time, Tarboard slows down for a while but it has always picked back up.
posted via 97.78.238.94 user DavidMaxwell.
message 44082 - 05/21/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: "In the Footsteps of the Swallows and Amazons" query
I have a foot in both camps, but my heart and head are with Tarboard. With Tarboard I know where I am; on Facebook I am bombarded with posts not just about AR, but also my old school and old college, never mind family members. The coinage there is getting debased.
posted via 88.110.67.150 user Mike_Jones.
message 44081 - 05/20/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: "In the Footsteps of the Swallows and Amazons" query
I'm afraid I agree Alex, TarBoard has always been a place for an exchange of views etc where FB always strikes me as just 'showing off'!
posted via 95.144.241.223 user MTD.
message 44080 - 05/20/18
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: "In the Footsteps of the Swallows and Amazons" query
Yes, things are quieter here but not totally defunct. As for the original question, I haven't been to the Lakes for a few years, but I would be very surprised if Claire's routes are badly affected. As you will see when you get there, the landscape doesn't have a lot of scope for major changes to routes.
In any case, the tourist office is bound to have up-to-date guides to suggested walks. Have a wonderful time!
posted via 86.148.217.128 user awhakim.
message 44079 - 05/20/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: "In the Footsteps of the Swallows and Amazons" query
I'm afraid I don't have answers for you. Very sorry.

I just wanted to mention that participation in this once-fairly-active forum seems to have evaporated. I suspect everyone has headed to Facebook. (I avoid FB, so I can't say for sure.) Rather too bad, but... That's evolution for you.

Best of luck,
Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 44078 - 05/17/18
From: Mark Purtill, subject: "In the Footsteps of the Swallows and Amazons" query
Hi, everyone. Long-time occasional lurker, first time poster here.

I'm attending the TARS IAGM in Coniston coming up soon, and have a bit of extra time on the ends. I'm wondering if the walks in "In the Footsteps of the Swallows and Amazons" by Claire Kendall-Price are still doable. I see my copy is nearly 25 years old (eep!); around hear any walks that old would now be going through parking lots, but I'm hoping the Lake District is not in such dire straights. Can anyone enlighten me?

Thanks in advance for any help.
posted via 50.54.220.51 user Zeggpold.


message 44077 - 05/16/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Dorothea and Breaking the fourth wall
Dorothea reads some of the (still unfinished) "Outlaw of the Broads" to Titty while the well is being dug (PP16) and "the afternoon slipped by in literary criticism .... Dorothea read to the end of her notebooks, and explained what was still to come, and had gone back to the first chapter to remind Titty of the little bits that were going to be important later on .... "
posted via 203.96.134.66 user hugo.
message 44076 - 05/07/18
From: Jo, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
Cormorant Island too, in SA - they see it and comment on it, so that we already know about it when the burglars bury Capt Flint's trunk on it.
posted via 5.80.139.246 user Jo.
message 44075 - 05/07/18
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
And there are several places where something is mentioned which is significant on rereading:

That's considered a key element of good style.

posted via 109.180.191.172 user eclrh.
message 44074 - 05/06/18
From: Jo, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
Exactly, Andy....

posted via 5.80.139.246 user Jo.
message 44073 - 05/05/18
From: Andy, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
Oooh - Winter Holiday - "It would be unfair to draw Nancy's Pumpkin Face".

Andy
posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.


message 44072 - 05/05/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
And there are several places where something is mentioned which is significant on rereading:

The Swallows see a sharp-pointed rock on the port bow (SD3). Then (just before the shipwreck) "Remember the rock we saw yesterday .... the Pike Rock" (SD5).

Nancy thinks that "it was a jolly good thing that Captain Flint was abroad for the winter" (just before he arrives; WH20). Though he "has his uses" for the North Polar Expedition!

posted via 203.96.142.177 user hugo.


message 44071 - 05/04/18
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
There are several places the author hints of what is to happen by having a character say. "Nothing can go wrong" or words to that effect.
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.
message 44070 - 05/03/18
From: Andy, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
Well spotted!

Andy
posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.


message 44069 - 05/03/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
The best example of "fourth-walling" I've ever seen was Ian Richardson's playing of Francis Urquhart in the House of Cards TV trilogy. And he did it exactly as Mike describes AR doing it -- as if he were there (which of course in this case his character was), observing and commenting on what was happening.
posted via 124.171.134.77 user mikefield.
message 44068 - 05/02/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
Giving this more thought yesterday, it occured to me that AR writes as if he is there observing and so sometimes he lets slip that this is the case. The good thing is that he never takes part of steps in, no matter what happens!
posted via 95.146.165.153 user MTD.
message 44067 - 05/02/18
From: Jo, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
There is a hint of fourth wall in WH, at the end of chapter 23: 'If it had only come off, this particular discovery of the North Pole would have been the most orderly bit of Arctic exploration in history.'
posted via 5.80.139.246 user Jo.
message 44066 - 05/02/18
From: Duncan, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
There's quite a lot of that, especially in the (abandoned) original opening of Peter Duck, of course. Like the "this is what it's like when it's really pitchy dark" illustration.

I think that is almost the opposite of the "fourth wall" in that it is putting the writing of the story into the realm of fiction too (especially with PD and ML, I suppose). It's a fairy-tale method of course, like Old Peter telling tales to his grandchildren, or Tolkien being handed the Baggins' book by an old hobbit and translating it for a modern audience.

I'm fascinated by it, not least because, in the hands of AR and JRRT it seems like rather an old-fashioned, or rather timeless approach to storytelling, yet also in the 20th century similar devices in the hands of writers for adults were seen as highly contemporary and experimental.

posted via 5.70.69.169 user Duncan.


message 44065 - 05/01/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
Once AR started doing all the illustrations Nancy was credited with assisting him, so in a sense she became 'the voice' of the author.

It is something I hadn't noticed before, and gives a lot to think about.
posted via 95.146.165.153 user MTD.


message 44064 - 05/01/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Breaking the fourth wall
I can't think of any after these two n his first S and A novel, but isn't Captain Nancy occasionally given an existence as the author's collaborator, a sort of inverted fourth wall?
posted via 92.18.214.72 user Mike_Jones.
message 44063 - 05/01/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Breaking the fourth wall
Someone on the AR Facebook group recently mentioned this quote from S&A Chapter III...

Susan unhooked the traveller and she and Roger together brought down the sail and the yard. Titty with the crockery basket was well out of the way under the folds of the sail. All this happened much quicker than I can tell it, and when the sail was down Swallow still had enough way on her to slide in towards the beach.

...which made me think of this similar instance (which struck me as odd, as a child, that the author should address me so) from S&A Chapter XII...

Mate Susan, Able-seaman Titty, and the Boy Roger watched the lights and sang out the moment the top one showed a little to left or right of the lower one. With so many look-out men Captain John might have been content, but just once he looked round for himself and saw the two lights one above the other like the stop called a colon, which I am just going to make: there, like that.

These two are examples of 'breaking the fourth wall'. Can you think of others?

posted via 86.177.99.162 user Magnus.
message 44062 - 04/26/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Or none at all, as we haven't any to fret about.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 44061 - 04/25/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Of course Dave, the money side has to be a major consideration!
posted via 95.146.165.153 user MTD.
message 44060 - 04/25/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
The "look and feel" could indeed be kept if we wrote a brand new system, I'm sure. But we would really rather find an existing, supported offering that can be tailored to fit via parameters or the equivalent (maybe plug-ins) rather than user mainline code development and modifications.

And having no money we want something which is and freely available, of course.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 44059 - 04/25/18
From: Woll, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Ed, don't worry, that won't happen. One of the specs for a new version would be "Must work for Ed Kiser"!

Regards,
Woll
posted via 84.51.138.122 user Woll.


message 44058 - 04/24/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
As an 'old' programmer (1980s to the mid 1990s) I can understand that, I'm sure the 'look and feel' could be kept on a system that was much easier to maintain.
posted via 2.30.186.56 user MTD.
message 44057 - 04/24/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Glad to hear that!
posted via 2.30.186.56 user MTD.
message 44056 - 04/24/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
I with you on that point Ed, I have various PCs etc but the one I use the most (and like the most) runs Windows XP!
posted via 2.30.186.56 user MTD.
message 44055 - 04/24/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Yes, I must say that I also like the text-only (and therefore now rather-old-fashioned) look of TarBoard the way it is. I'd be sorry for the software to be changed -- unless of course it could be made to reproduce the present appearance.
posted via 124.171.64.236 user mikefield.
message 44054 - 04/24/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
I just checked out of curiosity. If you google Arthur Ransome, "All Things Ransome" is currently sixth on the page after two Wikipedia articles (Arthur Ransome and Swallows and Amazons series), two Guardian articles on Ransome and the TARS website, so I don't think our profile needs much raising.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44053 - 04/24/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
It is certainly not our aim to introduce advertising, we continuously get unsolicited (spam) offers to raise our internet profile and lift us up the Google results page to maximise our earnings. So far we have resisted all these blandishments.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44052 - 04/24/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
One of the things that we are very aware of is the degree to which TarBoard users like the current design and ease of use. We hope to preserve that or as close to it as we can, but as Adam noted the current TarBoard (written in PERL as it happens) is old, cranky, and hard to keep running. There is certainly a chance that, sooner or later, a key necessity won't be supported any more and we'll be forced to abandon it.

If so it would be really good to have found and moved to an alternative which meets everyone's approval but doesn't require a skilled programmer to keep it running and modify the code.

posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 44051 - 04/24/18
From: David Maxwell, subject: Re: Easter quiz
Weird old fashioned phrases can vary depending on the age of the person, the time period they grew up in and which side of the pond they live in. It has been mentioned from time to time on this board the difference between the Queens English and the Presidents English (though the current holder of the office in Washington has his own peculiar idioms!).
posted via 97.78.238.94 user DavidMaxwell.
message 44050 - 04/24/18
From: David Maxwell, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
I'll have to say that I enjoy the format, lack of advertising and the ease of use. I hope that all those features do not go away in a future edition of the board.
posted via 97.78.238.94 user DavidMaxwell.
message 44049 - 04/24/18
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
"New and Improved" - What we use today on TARBOARD works on my current level of machine (WINDOWS XP). My fear is that the NEWER TARBOARD will consider my machine to be "obsolete" and therefor no longer "supported" which takes me out of the participation. That would be a bummer.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 44048 - 04/24/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Currently, I would say it is more in the thinking stage. The current software is very old in computer terms and is "hand built" but has been maintained and so far has been reliable. However, eventually software stops being supported by newer technology and Woll our technical expert has been looking into things. However, real life also intrudes. I will leave it to Woll to explain any further if he thinks I have done an inadequate job!
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44047 - 04/23/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Adam - thanks for posting those.

Interested to see that there are going to be consideration of a 'New TarBoard', is this just at the 'thinking' stage or are there already some ideas on the table?
posted via 2.30.186.56 user MTD.


message 44046 - 04/23/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: TarBoard and All Things Ransome
The Minutes of the latest AGM (held by Skype), the Chairman's Report and the 2017 Accounts for All Things Ransome, the organization which owns and operates TarBoard and the All Things Ransome website, can now be found on the All Things Ransome website by clicking on the link and scrolling to the bottom of the page.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44045 - 04/19/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Easter quiz
And the origin of this peculiar phrase?

One website says "eggs is eggs" might be a corruption of the phrase "x is x" from a mathematical sort of deduction. Seems reasonable until you see other websites claiming the phrase appeared in a dictionary of slang published in 1699. Do 17th century mathematicians use slang? Do the sort of people who use slang, know about mathematical formulae?

To kick the debate off... what other weird old fashioned phrases can you find in the 12 books?

posted via 86.177.99.162 user Magnus.


message 44044 - 04/05/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Easter quiz
Nancy was the first name that came to mind when I read the question, and someone in the Broads books. I also thought of Roger but wasn't sure of any of them.
posted via 2.30.186.56 user MTD.
message 44043 - 04/05/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Easter quiz
Two out of three ain't bad!

Never thought of Roger.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 44042 - 04/05/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Easter quiz
As Easter begins today, why not a little quiz based on a suitable theme?

Since you are probably already aware that GN uses the word "egg" 467 times, and BS only 15, we need another eggy question...

Using your excellent memories, and referring to paper only (no ebooks!), can you tell me which three characters use the phrase "as sure as eggs is eggs"?

Just simply reply here with "Joe Bill Pete" or whatever three names you think likely, and we can see who got it right on Sunday.
posted via 86.177.99.162 user Magnus.


message 44041 - 04/05/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Easter quiz
Apologies for the quiz answers being late. I had the unexpected sensation of not having to work for a few days, and actually turned the laptop off!

Swallowdale, Chapter VI

"You’ve got a jolly good crew," said Nancy. "If they hadn’t coiled your anchor-rope as it should be coiled it would have jammed, as sure as eggs is eggs, and you might never have been able to throw it clear."

Secret Water, Chapter VII

Roger was pointing. "A boat. I saw it. It was just going behind the other island."
The others looked up the Creek where Roger was pointing.
"We can’t see it now," said Roger. "It simply disappeared into the land."
"Are you sure?" said John.
"As eggs is eggs," said Roger.

The Big Six, Chapter XII

"Not going to be had that way twice," said Joe. "If anybody see us with them boats they’ll say we cast 'em off, same as George Owdon say when we tie up that cutter that were caught in the trees."
"Sure as eggs is eggs they’ll say it’s us," said Bill, who was hurriedly setting the sail.

posted via 86.177.99.162 user Magnus.


message 44040 - 04/01/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Easter quiz
I can't remember who, but I've an idea its in one of the Broads books.
posted via 2.30.186.56 user MTD.
message 44039 - 04/01/18
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Easter quiz
I think that it was old Mr. Swainson, the inveterate singer of folk songs.
posted via 120.148.62.46 user David.
message 44038 - 04/01/18
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Easter quiz
That has got me thinking

Nancy
Mrs Dixon
Jacky
posted via 92.16.48.141 user MartinH.


message 44037 - 03/30/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Easter quiz
Nancy
Bill

????


posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 44036 - 03/30/18
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Easter quiz
Not disclosing the answer, but an observation. The phrase as quoted is found only once, but a shorter version of "eggs is eggs" is found three times.
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.
message 44035 - 03/30/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Easter quiz
As Easter begins today, why not a little quiz based on a suitable theme?

Since you are probably already aware that GN uses the word "egg" 467 times, and BS only 15, we need another eggy question...

Using your excellent memories, and referring to paper only (no ebooks!), can you tell me which three characters use the phrase "as sure as eggs is eggs"?

Just simply reply here with "Joe Bill Pete" or whatever three names you think likely, and we can see who got it right on Sunday.
posted via 81.156.118.120 user Magnus.


message 44034 - 03/28/18
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Watershed
Now you have reminded me of another book I ought to re-read.
posted via 92.16.48.141 user MartinH.
message 44033 - 03/28/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Watershed
Perhaps Titty had already read "Riddle of the Sands" from the shelf on Captain Flint's houseboat? I seem to remember the watershed was a critical plot point? Or at least the general mapping of the sands was, of which the watershed was a notable part.
posted via 81.156.118.120 user Magnus.
message 44032 - 03/27/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Watershed
I probably learned the word from Swallowdale, I don't remember it in any of my geography classes. Perhaps we came across it when I was learning to map read the Ordnance Survey 1" to the mile maps.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44031 - 03/27/18
From: Edwin M. Kiser, subject: Re: Watershed
"WATERSHED" - Just another little piece of that amazingly large list of educational growth given to us by reading these twelve stories, either in the time of our youth, or as an adult. We may not have realized the learning process that was happening during those readings, but it all becomes a part of who we are.

My grandchild signals by flashlight to me from next door, aving learned Morse from me, who learned it from Winter Holiday.

I sailed my four meter catamarin without any teacher other than Ransome.

On outings with my Boy Scout friends, I build the campfire, heating my pot well before any other, because Susan showed me how.

I studied the constellations because Dick thought it was important.

The list goes on and on...

Thanks Arthur, you game much meaning to my life.

Ed Kiser [ kisered@aol.com ]

posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 44030 - 03/27/18
From: MarkD, subject: Re: Watershed
I thought that usage was a bit precocious too - I remember having to look it up as a child, and then being familiar with the term when we covered the topic in geography a couple of years later at a similar age to you.
posted via 85.255.233.83 user MarkD.
message 44029 - 03/27/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Watershed
Thanks Martin. I remember Titty having trouble with the compass, but that reference managed to pass me by!
posted via 2.30.186.56 user MTD.
message 44028 - 03/27/18
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Watershed
Mike, it's in Chapter 34 "Stretcher-Party". Page 410 in my ancient Cape edition.

I'm often dipping into the books, sometimes just to refresh my memory over a point. This time I decided to re-read all of SD.
posted via 92.16.48.141 user MartinH.


message 44027 - 03/26/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Watershed
Well Martin, I just had to look it up (I'm 64!) as I was totally unaware of that particular meaning of the word.

I've read SD many times but can't recall that usage at all, when does it occur? (Perhaps its time to read it again.)
posted via 2.30.186.56 user MTD.


message 44026 - 03/26/18
From: Martin Honor, subject: Watershed
I've just re-read SD.

"Watershed," said Titty, as if she had been waiting for the word, "I ought to have thought of that at once, instead of thinking it was the compass getting bumped."

Would it have been normal for a 9 year old of that time to know about such things? I'm pretty sure I didn't do that until I was about 11 or 12, when we covered rivers and drainage. I know when I first read SD I had to ask what the term meant.
posted via 92.16.48.141 user MartinH.


message 44025 - 03/18/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Winter Holiday 2018
I've just back from a sledging expedition. My youngest daughter was goading me to try to slope which ended in a large melted/muddy puddle. There was a sudden bump half-way down where I nearly lost the tip of my tongue biting it hard.

Whilst out there I recalled the one bit of Winter Holiday I never fail to implement in my life...

“Have you gone through the ice?” said Dorothea.
“Only snow,” said Roger, “tobogganing. Dry enough now.”
“You wouldn’t have been wet at all if you’d dusted the snow off before letting it melt into your stockings,” said Susan.

posted via 81.156.112.140 user Magnus.


message 44024 - 03/17/18
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Winter Holiday 2018
A lady in New Hampshire posted a photo on 'Lakelandcam' of a wooden ruler immersed in snow up to 16inches, which she no doubt thought unnecessarily excessive.
posted via 120.148.55.32 user David.
message 44023 - 03/17/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Winter Holiday 2018
It looks like the "beast from the east" is back today! My garden (Southern UK) has just turned white. I cant believe that I have never wanted to measure the depth myself. See chapter VI...

Why, the first thing he had done that morning when they had run out into the glittering snow had been to put a scrap of snow on a bit of glass, so that he could look at the crystals under his microscope. And then he had stuck a bit of stick upright in the snow and made a notch on it, and taken it indoors to borrow Mrs Dixon’s measuring tape to see exactly what depth of snowfall there had been.

posted via 81.156.112.140 user Magnus.


message 44022 - 03/03/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Winter Holiday 2018
Tony Richards has had some good Winter Holiday photos on Lakelandcam this week.
posted via 203.214.8.215 user mikefield.
message 44021 - 03/02/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Winter Holiday 2018
Have Lake Windermere and Coniston Water frozen over in Winter 2018 to pave the way for the North Polar Expedition? And has the KFC chicken crossed the road in Britain, courtesy of DHL?
posted via 202.154.146.11 user hugo.
message 44020 - 03/01/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Bird Book was Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
Interesting, the gavia (or colymbus) immer immer name is because there is a sub-species gavia immer elasson (from memory) so they needed to differentiate the two, I don't know how they differ.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44019 - 03/01/18
From: MarkD, subject: Re: Bird Book was Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
Adam, I’ve had a look at the first Ed from 1927 and it is as you describe with one exception - the Latin name is given as Colymbus immer with no superscript 2.



posted via 5.80.192.167 user MarkD.


message 44018 - 02/19/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Bird Book was Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
I hope so. I can't see any reason why it should not be. However, my copy is actually a 3rd edition 2nd Impression dating from 1935, still well before the date of GN? but I suppose Sandars might have made changes from the 1st to the 3rd editions.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44017 - 02/18/18
From: MarkD, subject: Re: Bird Book was Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
Adam, I’ve ordered myself a first ed of this - there was also a second Ed in 1929, do you know if it is the same text for the Diver?
posted via 85.255.233.104 user MarkD.
message 44016 - 02/13/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: AR Reference No. 1
Correct. It is listed in the stores as they embark, but neither book says how or when it is consumed.

posted via 81.156.112.140 user Magnus.
message 44015 - 02/12/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Semaphore fontRe: Hawaii Five-O and Nancy
All Things Ransome web site has two versions of semaphore font and images for cutting and pasting and other nice things all of which can be found on the Ransome-Related Downloads page.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44014 - 02/12/18
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Hawaii Five-O and Nancy
Yes, the late Dave Sewart created a font of semaphore figures. It appears in 'Furthest South', the AusTARS magazine, from time to time to offer a bit of a challenge. Probably in 'Signals' too.
posted via 120.148.55.32 user David.
message 44013 - 02/12/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Hawaii Five-O and Nancy

To be fair, they *did* attribute other elements of the clues to Sherlock Holmes --and I did not know of the Sherlock Holmes connection to Nancy's semaphore, so missed that nudge.

I once tried to create a font of that type of semaphore --including elements from CF's message in ML, like junks for periods-- using FontStruct, but never finished it. Does anyone know if a Dancing Man font has already been done by a ACD fan?

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 44012 - 02/12/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Hawaii Five-O and Nancy
I assumed that Ransome got the basic idea from the Sherlock Holmes adventure and made it into semaphore rather than the secret signs used by Conan Doyle so that people could actually try and read it themselves. He even provided semaphore lessons and pictures earlier in Winter Holiday to show how it was done.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44011 - 02/12/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Hawaii Five-O and Nancy
Or could it be a Sherlock Holmes fan remembering the Dancing Men?
posted via 88.110.64.143 user Mike_Jones.
message 44010 - 02/12/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Hawaii Five-O and Nancy
Has anyone else watched the most recent version of Hawaii Five-O? I'm in the middle of the first season now. In its beginning, the main character is bequeathed by his father a box of clues to an old crime. Among those clues is an envelope with, on the outside, several cryptic rows of stick figures...

...Which any one of us would recognize at a glance as an example of Nancy's semaphore.

I haven't bothered to freeze the frames and read it --they probably got it wrong anyhow, from the bits they've been playing with as the episodes progress-- but seeing it made me chuckle.

I wonder who the AR fan is on their design team.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 44009 - 02/12/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: AR Reference No. 1
They take golden syrup to Wild Cat in Swallows and Amazons and also to Secret Water but I don't think it is ever mentioned how they eat it it, in porridge or on bread or whatever.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44008 - 02/12/18
From: Edward Burroughs, subject: Re: Morse Code
This reminds me of one of Arthur C Clarke's books. I think it's A Fall of Moondust. A moonliner is invisibly stranded under the dust of the moon and the captain manages to communicate with the surface by tapping on a metal shaft with a spanner. Clarke makes a good point: Pilots always grumbled about having to learn Morse - it was a complete waste of time in an age of electronics. In all your life you might only need it once. But that of course was just the point - you really would need it then.
posted via 2.218.125.171 user edward_burroughs.
message 44007 - 02/12/18
From: Jon, subject: Re: AR Reference No. 1
Off the top of my head, it's among the stores that they were landed with in SW.
posted via 98.218.103.166 user Jon.
message 44006 - 02/11/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: AR Reference No. 2
The women’s monthly magazine ‘Red’ includes a column about what a certain celebrity is reading, their favourite books and so on. In the November 2017 issue it was the actress Miranda Hart.

Her response to ‘My Favourite Book as a Child was…’

“Swallows and Amazons. It was all I wanted in a book when I was younger: escapism, nature, gentle adventures, a tomboy lifestyle, and a sense of endless time and space in which to play and be free. I am breathing a sigh of relief just thinking about it!”
posted via 95.146.165.154 user MTD.


message 44005 - 02/11/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: AR Reference No. 1
In yesterday's (11th Feb 2018) London 'Sunday Times' there is an extract of a new book by Laura Freeman on how she battled with anorexia in her teenage years.

She was helped and encouraged to eat from descriptions of food and meals in children's books.

She says "Swallows and Amazons spurred me to pour golden syrup on my porridge."

I can remember references to porridge in many of the books, but golden syrup? Perhaps Ed Kiser could make use of his search facility to tell us if there are such references (if there are, they've passed me by over the years!)

posted via 95.146.165.154 user MTD.


message 44004 - 02/11/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: TarBoard is working again
Thanks to all involved, I know from my years in IT how difficult such changeovers and ammendments to any systems can be!
posted via 95.146.165.154 user MTD.
message 44003 - 02/11/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: TarBoard is working again
Absolutely sterling. The extensive perl scripts are old, cranky, and liable to be affected by any changes especially as the available tools and environment evolves. As witness the last few days.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 44002 - 02/11/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: TarBoard is working again
Thanks Woll,
From the behind the scenes emails I was copied on, I know you did sterling work in fixing all the problems that arose.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 44001 - 02/11/18
From: Woll, subject: TarBoard is working again
There were a few little problems that needed ironing out to get TarBoard working on the new server, so it took some time, but it's working now!

If you find any problems, please get in touch.

posted via 87.115.148.117 user Woll.
message 43998 - 02/09/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: TarBoard Shutdown - Saturday morning
Our web hosting server will be transferring TarBoard and All Things Ransome to a new server on Saturday morning.

TarBoard will not accept posts from Saturday morning UK time.

Once the transfer is compete and tested we will open up TarBoard again. However, there will be a new IP address which has to propagate across the internet and this could take some time before you will be able to find the site.

So please don't panic, just keep trying and we hope that normal service will be resumed as soon as possible.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43997 - 02/08/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Nell (was: handedness)
Thank you, Peter; I'll take you up on that offer. And I don't especially mind an encoded version of my email appearing here:

pitsligo a
t sprynet d
o
t com

Anyone who feels like sending me nastygrams will, of course, be sending me their email at the same time, and the scraper-bots haven't yet bothered me with such encoding.

I do wish TarBoard used different software for the forum, though, with such features as allowed private messages between members, and an easier sorting of threads. I suspect it's a (quite understandable) matter of cost.

Again, thank you.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43996 - 02/08/18
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Nell (was: handedness)
Alex - I can scan the article for you, but you will have to give me an email address, i.e. publish it on TarBoard, which you may not want to do. If you do go ahead, I suggest you 'codify' the address, keying 'dot' for '.' etc
posted via 86.154.76.136 user Peter_H.
message 43995 - 02/08/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: TarBoard Temporary Shutdown - EARLY WARNING
Our web hosting service will be moving TarBoard and All Things Ransome to a new server on Saturday February 10th in the morning (Pacific time, late afternoon in the UK).

This means that TarBoard and All Things Ransome will be unavailable for some time (possibly more than 24 hours) while the new IP addresses permeate across the internet. Please keep trying if at first you don't succeed in accessing TarBoard after Saturday night.

I will post a second reminder closer to the actual time of the shutdown.

posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43994 - 02/07/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Nell (was: handedness)

"Imaginary Conversations - 2" --Thank you, Peter. I believe my family did have a TARS membership back then, but all our issues of Mixed Moss were lost to me when my father sold the family house in '08. Do you know if there's any way to acquire a copy of that article? I often think back on it.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43993 - 02/07/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Nell (was: handedness)
My own identical twins have reversed initials: CM and MC.
posted via 88.110.64.143 user Mike_Jones.
message 43992 - 02/07/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Nell (was: handedness)
My father's initials were BP, my mother's AH and mine AP, this once worked (briefly) to my advantage when our bank paid a cheque intended for my mother into my account.

I then compounded the problem by marrying someone whose initials are PA and naming my children with the initials EA, ME and MP, the firstborn's name is often shortened to Em.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43991 - 02/07/18
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Nell (was: handedness)
Alex - if you are a TARS member, you will probably be recalling an article by Peter Willis in Mixed Moss 1996, p. 24, entitled "Imaginary Conversations - 2".
posted via 86.154.76.136 user Peter_H.
message 43990 - 02/07/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Nell (was: handedness)
A bit like "Jennifer" being a version of "Guinevere", which no-one much (including me till recently) seems to be aware of.
posted via 124.171.149.247 user mikefield.
message 43989 - 02/07/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Nell (was: handedness)
My twins have the same initial, but envelopes usually quote the middle initial too, which are different, solving that problem.

More troublesome is the older practice of naming a first born son after his father, so that letters which omit the Snr/Jnr suffix are just as confusing. Plus you never know which person a telephone caller is asking for.
posted via 81.158.243.43 user Magnus.


message 43988 - 02/06/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Nell (was: handedness)
My maternal grandmother had one sister and no brothers, they were Elsie and Ethel (they were born in the 1890s), and the letter problem was easily solved as their father opened all the post that came in to the household!
posted via 95.150.14.207 user MTD.
message 43987 - 02/06/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Nell (was: handedness)

Brilliant! Yes, of course it would! Confusion, indeed!

On a tangent: from a long, long time ago I remember some AR fan-fic, a what-happened-to-them-later story, c.WW2. Most of them are in uniform by then, of course, but while on leave Titty and Susan are conversing in Susan's flat, catching each other up on who is where and doing what. While I can't remember all details, I do remember that a great deal of attention was paid to who was romantically involved with whom. The pairings were generally unsurprising, but one of my favorite bits was one of them telling the other how Roger was currently getting romantic whiplash trying to keep up with an unnamed pair of twins --the implication being that he was being courted by Port and Starboard, who would, of course, be strangers to Titty and Susan.

Which, depending on how that played out, could solve the "Miss E. Farland" confusion for (at least) one of them.

More seriously, does anyone else remember this bit of fan-fic, and perhaps have a copy I could have a look at?

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43986 - 02/06/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Nell (was: handedness)
Thereby ensuring eternal confusion with letters addressed to Miss E. Farland.
posted via 88.110.64.143 user Mike_Jones.
message 43985 - 02/06/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Nell (was: handedness)

In that light, what leaps to mind is that it would be a logical alliteration to name twins Elizabeth and Eleanor.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43984 - 02/06/18
From: Robert Hill, subject: Nell (was: handedness)
According to the appendix on names in Chambers' dictionary, Nell can also be a diminutive of Ellen or Eleanor. Both of these are derived from Helen but widely used as separate names. I used to have an aunt called Eleanor but it never crossed my mind until today that her name was a version of Helen.
posted via 95.147.240.158 user eclrh.
message 43983 - 02/05/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Handedness of the children

Unless one consistently curls her hair by choice?

And I have *no* idea whether that would have been likely, given the era and the ages of the characters.

So yes, I agree it's more likely they are DZ/fraternal twins with marked enough physical similarity to be indistinguishable at a glance to those who don't know them well.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43982 - 02/05/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
If only one of the twins has curly hair, it's pretty certain that they are non-identical.
posted via 88.110.64.143 user Mike_Jones.
message 43981 - 02/05/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Handedness of the children

And my mistake: after doing a little reading, it turns out Port and Starboard *could* have been identical twins. I had been under the misimpression handedness was more strongly linked than it is.

As for names, are Bess and Nell nicks for anything other than Elizabeth and Helen?

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43980 - 02/05/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
The quote you are after is chapter IX of Coot Club:

“It’s quite easy, really,” said Starboard.
“Once you know,” said Port.
“Oh, yes,” said Mrs. Barrable. “I remember now. Nell’s the one with curly hair.”
“And the right-handed one,” said Tom. “That’s why she’s Starboard, and Bess is left-handed and so she’s Port. It comes very handy for sailing.”
“Not much sailing for anybody today,” said Mrs. Barrable, looking up the glassy river.

Left-handed children born as recently as 1909 had their arm strapped behind their back at school; I heard this from my wife's grandfather. Do we guess that Bess was born around 1915 or just after? Or would AR have thought about his own childhood? Or that of Tabitha?

As a child of a solicitor I expect Bessie to have had a good education.

On another tangent: do you think their full names were Elizabeth and Helen?!
posted via 81.158.243.43 user Magnus.


message 43979 - 02/04/18
From: Andy, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
...then again, on your last point, it's only ua lefties who realise the world is designed incorrectly. I suspect Arthur (surely a rightie?) may not have noticed the awkwardness 'we' have to endure, as many righties don't notice 'our' problems to this day.
posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.
message 43978 - 02/04/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Handedness of the children

The only characters I'd have any confidence asserting handedness for would be the twins, Port and Starboard. I can't recall if AR expressly calls out that detail, but from their roles, each minding one particular jibsheet, I'd like to think that it would follow. (Even if, technically, if they're identical twins they should be genetically identical, thus of the same handedness.)

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43977 - 02/04/18
From: Jon, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
In SW, "A Savage Watched Her" (p. 219 of the 1957 Cape printing), Titty seems to have the ink pot to her right which suggests she's right handed.
posted via 68.81.220.75 user Jon.
message 43976 - 02/04/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
I agree.
posted via 88.110.64.143 user Mike_Jones.
message 43975 - 02/04/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
It seems to me that, given how AR did many of his illustrations, there's a chance that the children that posed for his "Hollywoods" did what came naturally when asked to hammer, or some such. And there might have been little reason for Ransome to try and reverse the image to represent other-handedness.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43974 - 02/04/18
From: Andy Clayton, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
If I was hanging out of the upper window of a barn, to reach for a high hanging place, I'd be more inclined to trust my safety to my right hand and do the nail work with my left. Rather than hanging on with my weaker hand. Think the episode reinforces the argument for John being right handed.
posted via 46.208.203.39 user cousin_jack.
message 43973 - 02/04/18
From: MD, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
In PP, “Roger in the mine” shows him hammering with his right.

“Charcoal pudding shows what looks like titty pouring a kettle with her right.

PM has a few things that are possibly inconclusive (eg Dick holding the sheet in his right hand in “they were startled by a splash” despite being on starboard tack, and again in his right for “it acts as an extra sail” whilst on port tack), but does show Timothy writing with his right hand in “work in the houseboat”.

In my edition of SA there is a small untitled pic of possibly Titty holding a telescope in her right hand to her right eye.

ML in “at work on the dragon” shows Titty and Roger using paintbrushes in their right hands.

BS “it’s a different tyre” shows Dick writing with his right.


posted via 5.80.192.167 user MarkD.


message 43972 - 02/04/18
From: MDyson, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
In SW “the blooding” shows Nancy using her right hand to prick Peggy.

In the text Roger pricks his own left hand, indicating he is also right handed.

It shows Don using his left hand to prick himself, John using his right, Susan holding the iodine bottle in her right to give to Roger and holding her left like it’s hurt (she gives the bottle to Roger after pricking herself, so presumably she is right handed and using her uninjured hand to hold the bottle). Titty is dripping blood onto the plate from her left hand after pricking herself so is also presumably right handed.

I think that’s fairly good evidence that all the Swallows and Nancy are right handed and only Don is a left hooker.
posted via 5.80.192.167 user MarkD.


message 43971 - 02/04/18
From: MDyson, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
In the illustration “taking bearings” in SW we see titty (I think) lying on the ground writing with what looks to me like her right hand.
posted via 5.80.192.167 user MarkD.
message 43970 - 02/04/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
Good point Alex, I was just about to post something similar (having read the other posts.)

AR was writing in, and of, a time when (in the UK) left-handedness was seen as an aberration and children would be 'forced' to use their right hand even to the extent of having their left one strapped up so they couldn't use it.

I also think that given how AR wrote, if a character was left-handed he would have said so!
posted via 95.150.14.207 user MTD.


message 43969 - 02/04/18
From: MD, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
That’s quite possible. I’ve actually considered this before, as I tried to visualise what was going on and wondered why he used his left hand and came to the conclusion I’d have done exactly the same as he did - and as I say I’m a right hander. If I had a big wall and a little one to hang a signal on I’d have chosen the biggest blank space to make it as visible as possible from distance. I’m not so right-handed I won’t use a hammer in my left if I have to, and not so right handed it would bother me which side to put it up unless there was absolutely no difference between them (in which case I’d probably have done as you say). I got to the point that I thought there was no real evidence either way based on the picture.
posted via 5.80.192.167 user MarkD.
message 43968 - 02/04/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
Thanks MD, I'd considered that, and indeed the opening in the barn certainly seems to be off-centre. But the size of the signal shown vs the width of the walls each side of the opening seems to indicate that they could easily be hung from either side. So why pick the LHS if to do so meant going against one's natural handedness?

(I'd also considered the question of sight-lines, but there's every reason to think that the whole side of the barn could be seen readily from Holly Howe, so that the issue of whether one side or the other of the barn was better doesn't come into play.)
posted via 124.171.149.247 user mikefield.


message 43967 - 02/04/18
From: MDyson, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
Mike, if you look at the first illustration on the frontispiece, “signal station and observatory”, you’ll see the signals are placed to the left of the large window as you look at it from Holly Howe. John wouldn’t have had any other choice but to use his left hand whilst standing on the sill to put it there. I’d have done the same, and I’m right handed.

One could argue that the choice of sides to fix the sign indicated a particular handedness, but from the drawing the window is offset so that there is a much larger expanse of blank wall to the left and I think it would be the more natural choice.
posted via 5.80.192.167 user MarkD.


message 43966 - 02/03/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
Pardon me, Mike: *definitely* inspired awesomeness. ;)

Actually, by listing map making and writing I meant more to wonder whether, in any of the books' *pictorial* illustrations, we see any of the characters specifically using either their left or right hand in a way that might identify handedness. Not that it would settle the matter --IIRC that era was known for training "lefties" to work with their right hand, some tasks effectively demand right-handedness from the nature of equipment (e.g. using a sextant), and ambidexterity could throw off any certainty.

I haven't seen a connection between left-handedness and creativity myself, in any of the examples I have known personally, but I won't contradict you. In fact, I dimly remember studies that would back you up in that assertion.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43965 - 02/03/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
I would have said "inspired awesomeness" actually, Alex. :)

I'm convinced there's some connectedness between handedness and creativity, though.

The only left-hander in my family is my second daughter. She used to be quite a creative writer, but her physical condition limits her a bit in that direction these days.

Map-making comes from a primarily "lower limbic quadrant" form of thinking -- definitely left-brain I'm afraid, so I'm equally definitely right-handed...
posted via 124.171.149.247 user mikefield.


message 43964 - 02/03/18
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Handedness of the children
Oh, very sharp Mike! Like Alex, it's something which I would have passed over, but now that you have mentioned it, I shall look for other instances as I work my way, very slowly, savouring each turn of phrase through the canon. I'm only at the shipwreck in SD, so there is a lot to savour yet! This time around, I know the story, so I'm concentrating on the writing. What fun!
posted via 120.148.55.32 user David.
message 43963 - 02/03/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Handedness of the children

Well *that's* awfully perceptive! I would never have thought to look for it, either. Are you left handed, that you think to look, or was that just inspired awareness?

Now I'll need to look for other instances of handedness. Illustrations of map-making? Writing?

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43962 - 02/03/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Handedness of the children
Something I've come across for the first time while proof-reading 'Winter Holiday' -- after I-don't-know-how-many prior readings of it. John is setting up the observatory's signal station for the first time, fixing a nail into the stonework on which to rig the signal halyard.

"This'll do," he said, trying it in his hand, and went to the big window. He stood there on the sill, holding to the wall with his right hand and reaching round it and as high up it as he could with his left. He found a crack between the stones, pushed into it a big nail that he fished out of his pocket, battered it firmly in with his stone hammer, and gave it a last knock from below to make it turn upwards.

This is pretty clearly describing how a left-hander would do this.

(Without any evidence) I'd only ever thought of Titty -- and just perhaps Dorothea -- being left-handed, not any of the others; and certainly not John.

Is there any other evidence of the children's handedness that anyone has come across?
posted via 124.171.149.247 user mikefield.


message 43961 - 02/02/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: S & A books as free downloads
S&A is the 'New Illustrated Edition', 1931, 25th impression, Jonathan Cape, 1948.
posted via 124.171.149.247 user mikefield.
message 43960 - 02/02/18
From: David Maxwell, subject: Re: S & A books as free downloads
Does anyone know what edition, year printed, etc they are using for the download?
posted via 97.78.238.94 user DavidMaxwell.
message 43959 - 02/02/18
From: Mike Field, subject: S & A books as free downloads
'Swallows and Amazons' is now available as a free download from The Faded Page, Canada. The illustrations are included. More titles in the series are in preparation.

The books are being made available in Canada as that country recognises a 50-year-after-death copyright period, which, as AR died in 1967, has now expired.

(Naturally, you should only download this book if copyright restrictions in your country allow you to.... )

[ Image ]

posted via 124.171.149.247 user mikefield.


message 43958 - 01/30/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
Quite so Alex, I've always argued the books are a 'snapshot' of how the world was in the 1930s.

This can be seen in particular as AR wrote many in the 1940s, under the dark cloud of WWII, but carried on the same style.
posted via 95.150.14.131 user MTD.


message 43957 - 01/30/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
I'm still shocked at how ubiquitous cell/mobile phones have become. It seems to me it was barely yesterday that a good friend of mine was showing off his new bag-phone, which was a rare luxury item.

Which of course drags us into the question of whether technology alone would have prevented S&A from being the story it is. Night sailing to capture Amazon wouldn't have been so duffer-ish with a GPS-enabled phone. The storm wouldn't have been such a surprise with a weather ap. What sort of tension would there have been with that instant umbilical of security back to Mother at Holly Howe?

Different stories of a different era; for better or for worse --and I won't make any attempt at *that* assessment!-- impossible to replicate.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43956 - 01/29/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
Your right Alex, and it (the 'phone terminology) just seems to have crept up on us in the last couple of years!
posted via 95.150.15.235 user MTD.
message 43955 - 01/29/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
And in the further evolution of language, over here a cell/mobile is now more often than not simply a "phone," while the cord-bound creature that sits on my kitchen counter, still connected to the grid by wire rather than radio signals, is a "landline."

So when did "pudding" become a specific type of dessert? Has it always been in the US? Was it so in AR's time, and he is using a specific era/demographic's language for the purpose of establishing his setting?

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43954 - 01/29/18
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
Well, that explains a lot. Thank you both, you have helped me in my continuous quest to find "typo" errors in my TXT hand typed copies. Went to my Godine (pub 2002) edition, and, "CAKE FOR PUDDING." I'm glad I selected that particular quote. My TXT stands corrected. Not all a wasted effort, as it taught me the usage of PUDDING to mean DESSERT, so I'm glad I brought this up to become another boon to the education AR has given us. (And a bit embarrassed for my mistake. but typos do happen, so really glad to get another one fixed.) As for the sometimes usage of the "A", perhaps there is someone else other than me that made a TYPO. And so the education continues.

posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.
message 43953 - 01/29/18
From: Woll, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
My 1946 hardback has "for a pudding".
My 1971(?) UK Puffin paperback, with coloured pencil cover drawing, has "for pudding".

I wonder if it's a change made by AR after publication, or that the "a" was dropped accidentally by the printers at some point?

Both variations are acceptable English. I think the original fits the voice of novice-cook-Dorothea better!

posted via 87.115.148.117 user Woll.


message 43952 - 01/28/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
Well Ed, so it does for us!

You mention "cell phones", the first time I came across this in a USA TV programme it took me a few moments to realise they meant a "mobile"! These days over here "smart phone" has become more widespread.

Like you, over the years I have learnt much from AR and when I watch TV quiz shows (serious ones), I realise just how much I have to thank him for!
posted via 95.150.15.235 user MTD.


message 43951 - 01/28/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Hound in the Lakes
Today's Lakelandcam has a picture of a hound climbing a fence or gate.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.

message 43949 - 01/28/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
My copy of P&M says "And there's any amount of cake FOR pudding."

To a British English speaker this wold be equivalent of an American saying "And there's any amount of cake for dessert."
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43948 - 01/28/18
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
It never occurred to me that "pudding" is British for "Dessert". But perhaps that is not quite right either, as I would say "have cake FOR dessert", not "have cake IN a dessert." But it is close, and much better than the image I had of mashing the cake and stirring it around a bit to make it mushy, with perhaps some other stuff stirred in to the mix. That image was disturbing. Glad to get that corrected.

This forum has been a blessing to help understand the UK version of certain words.

My first "what the heck is That?" was there is SA, first chapter, when Roger came running up others with that telegram in hand. John, seeing the paper waving in his hand, asked him: "Despatches?" Right away, I became aware that reading this would take some translation.

Some time ago on this forum,I learned what "Midden" is, as used in the phrase "cock of the midden". To be "High and mighty", to stand on the high ground, that image gets knocked down a peg or two when that "high ground" is just a pile of stuff that occasionally gets scraped out of a chicken house.

Ransome has been a fantastic LEARNING experience, and not just learning about how to sail. My first sailing experience was just fine because I had read Ransome - I'm sure others could say the same. That first day out sailing, I felt I could hear Nancy saying, "Fingers, fingers." Yet somehow, I have a feeling that something a bit more forceful was needed by John when sailing the Goblin in stormy seas.

It was Ransome that got me interested in Morse Code. I was the kid that was always last to be chosen for the team, so to be asked by our Boy Scout Master to teach Morse to the others was quite a feather in my cap, a role of leadership among my peers. The Nerd was "in charge" for a change. Of course, that was back before the time of "cell phones". Hard to get kids motivated for Morse Code when they are busy texting.

There is that "secret" code that one uses when knocking on the door of a friend, a tapping that seems to mean, "It's me." Not really secret as it is well known. To put words to that code: "Shave and a hair cut, two bits." With the "and a" being said quickly together, and the other words all separately, and using the concept when banging Morse Code to send a DOT as one bang, and DASH as two bangs close together, (reminds me of the "double click" of the computer mouse) that little code becomes in Morse as "Dot Dash Dot Dot - pause - Dot Dot" which are the codes for "LI" (first two letters in "listen").

It was wonderful to be learning without knowing that is what was happening.

And the learning process continues. Ah, the marvels of modern communication...

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]

posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43947 - 01/28/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
A bit, depending on class in the UK pudding is what you have at home and dessert is what you in restaurant!
posted via 95.150.15.235 user MTD.
message 43946 - 01/27/18
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
In Australia, we are more likely to refer to eating the cake as a dessert course. Does that help?
posted via 120.148.46.131 user David.
message 43945 - 01/27/18
From: Woll, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
In this context I think Dorothea means that, for their "pudding course" (something sweet, eaten as the last course of a meal), they can eat the cake.

A more typical/traditional/old-fashioned "pudding course" would be something like "spotted dick", "treacle pudding", "rice pudding", "Christmas pudding" which are often steamed, but it could also be used to mean a trifle, ice cream etc.

The word "pudding" can also be used for savoury food, like "Yorkshire pudding" or "steak and kidney pudding", but in this context Dorothea means "pudding course".


posted via 87.115.148.117 user Woll.
message 43944 - 01/27/18
From: Jon, subject: Re: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
It's the other way 'round. Cake is cake; Pudding may be a pudding, or the generic term for dessert.
posted via 98.218.103.166 user Jon.
message 43943 - 01/27/18
From: Ed Kiser, subject: CAKE IN A PUDDING?
"And there's any amount of cake for a pudding." - PM CH6

Having just moved into their new quarters, "the Dogs' Home", Dorothea is considering what to do for their first meal on their own.

I am unaware of a PUDDING needing, as one of its ingredients, a CAKE. Now maybe "CAKE" means something other than what one puts icing on, and some candles, then dance around it singing "Happy Birthday". If she has some "CAKE" why not enjoy the cake rather than glop it all up in some sort of a pudding?

Or is this a language problem, where "CAKE" and "PUDDING" mean something different, depending on which side of the Great Pond one resides.

Perhaps here we are frustrated with the faulty translation of one language to another (British into American) leading to misunderstandings.
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43942 - 01/25/18
From: John Nichols, subject: Peel Island
Lakeland cam has a good shot of Peel Island
posted via 165.91.12.86 user Mcneacail.
message 43941 - 01/24/18
From: John Nichols, subject: Dunkirk
In getting the first chance in months to read tarboard - in reading the comments I was thinking that Branagh's performance in Dunkirk provides the model for any competent sailor and Naval officer. You can go out to sea , but nothing says you have to come back.

John
posted via 165.91.12.86 user Mcneacail.


message 43939 - 01/23/18
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Seamans Handybook (was Well-known book on Naval Warfare)
Is it likely that John would have a copy of a US book? I don't know. It could be that he had a Royal Navy book courtesy of his father or from a naval outfitters, which provided other items in addition to uniforms.

When I joined the RN for officer training we were issued with, what I think was called "The Able Seaman's Handbook". This covered many practical items of seamanship that an AB might have to undertake. It was not the definitive publication, that was "The Admiralty Manual of Seamanship" in 4 volumes (Vol 1 of which is on my bookshelf as I type). As far as I can remember the AB's handbook covered compasses, ropework, and commands used in small boats amongst other items.

During WW2 there was "A Seaman's Pocketbook". Whether this was a republication of an earlier book or a new book as an aid to the many called up for service during the war I don't know. However it has been reprinted by Conways. It is described thus:

At the height of the Second World War this small pocket-book was issued to all ratings on board ships of the Royal Navy. In straight period prose it outlines all the basic expressions and tasks a seaman needed to know to perform his duties efficiently. Chapters are broken down into: Sea Terms; Navigation; Steering the Ship; Rigging; Anchors and Cables; Boatwork; Miscellaneous (which includes details on uniform and folding a hammock, etc); and Ship Safety. Functional black line illustrations are used throughout, as well as a few pages of colour (used sparingly) for flag recognition.


posted via 2.102.118.45 user MartinH.


message 43938 - 01/22/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Seamans Handybook (was Well-known book on Naval Warfare)
I'm glad my thread has spawned two interesting tangents! I am pretty convinced by Adam Q's research on the bird book. Now I want to pick up on the book John takes to the island in S&A.

Someone mentioned it was a US publication. If the title matches exactly, that is a pretty likely.

However, Arthur Ransome had a copy of "A Seamans Pocket Book" (published by the Admirality) in his library when he died, published 1943. It could be this one too.

Has anyone seen inside either publication, to know if they are something a young lad would see as useful when on the island. How to splice some reef points, for example? (N.B. No mention is made of John consulting a book during that scene!)
posted via 81.129.149.81 user Magnus.


message 43937 - 01/22/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Bird Book was Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
A bit of both really. I inherited my copy of Sandars from my mother who had it from my grandmother but I was not a particularly keen birder so didn't really spend much time browsing it. One day I looked up the Great Northern Diver after reading the book again because I did wonder what a small bird book of the time might say. I was immediately struck by the similarities.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 43936 - 01/21/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Bird Book was Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare

You've convinced me, no question.

That's some pretty impressive sleuthing. Did you go hunting for Dick's book in particular, examining the various options, or come across Sandars in the course of other pursuits, recognize the similarity, and have a "eureka moment"?

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43935 - 01/21/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
Oh, I agree, Jon. I was merely postulating possible alternatives.
posted via 124.171.149.247 user mikefield.
message 43934 - 01/21/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Bird Book was Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
I believe that the bird book which Dick used in GN? was pretty convincingly identified by me as "A Bird Book for the Pocket" by Edmund Sandars, 1st edition 1927, Oxford University Press.

I wrote an article for the 2005 Mixed Moss entitled "Is the Dick's Bird Book?"

Here is an excerpt from the article which gives my reasons for believing that this is the book.

The reasons why I am so positive that this small book was the one Dick consulted are the quotes from the book that Ransome gives in the text and also the illustrations in Great Northern? To start with, Ransome states that the Great Northern and Black Throated Divers were shown on the same page. This is what Sandars shows. In addition, there is the Latin name, colymbus immer immer, the species name was changed in 1931 to gavia immer immer, (note: I have read that urinator immer immer was also used for some time between colymbus and gavia but I am not sure for how long).

Sandars idiosyncratically abbreviated the Latin name to colymbus immer2 with a superscript 2 and continued to use colymbus immer2 in later editions. In Chapter VII “Is it or isn’t it” of GN? Ransome refers to colymbus immer which might be easily done if he did not notice or realise what the superscript 2 meant. He also uses direct quotes from the descriptions of the Great Northern and Black Throated Diver in Dick's book. These are exactly the same words as Sandars' text.

Nests abroad. Usually seen solitary. Black Throated Diver Colymbus arcticus. Length 28 inches. Great Northern Diver Colymbus immer. Length 31 inches.
Sandars’ description of the Great Northern Diver is also notable as being very short and lacking in the details given for other birds. This would have added to Dick’s frustration giving him too little information to conclusively identify the Great Northern Divers.
Finally, the picture of the Great Northern Diver in Sandars' book is one of those where he has chosen to put an enlarged picture of the head and neck of the GN to make the differences in appearance from the Black-Throated diver clear, just as Dick does in his notebook. The picture of the whole body of the GN in Sandars book is quite small and tucked into a space on the page. What is also striking is how similar Ransome's illustrations of Dick's notebook are to the images from Sandars' book. They face the same way, in the same pose and are almost identical in detail and relative size.

I am certainly satisfied that Dick’s bird book was Sandars’ A Bird Book for the Pocket. The pictures and the text hang together. It is a suitably sized small handbook to carry aboard a on a cruising yacht. It was published at the right time and was a popular field guide, maybe the book belonged to Mac and the Sea Bear rather than Dick, though it seems unlike Dick to go on an expedition without some reference book.

posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43933 - 01/20/18
From: Jon, subject: Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
IIRC Liddell-Hart was a military, not a naval, officer, and wasn't particularly involved in naval strategy considerations except to suggest ships and naval maneuvers as models for armoured warfare. Gustavus Adolphus, similarly, was primarily a land commander and strategist. Mahan is probably the foremost writer on naval strategy, therefore the most likely candidate.
posted via 98.218.103.166 user Jon.
message 43932 - 01/20/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: unexpected AR reference
The reference in Lord Of The Flies is always jarring to me, even knowing it's coming. It's very effective though, bringing the story right to my emotional doorstep. They're ordinary kids, just as I was...

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43931 - 01/20/18
From: Tiss Flower, subject: unexpected AR reference
For the past fortnight, I've been listening to a "gritty" crime drama, "Stone", on BBC Radio 4. It was very good and made even better by an unexpected reference to S&A as a book that was meaningful in childhood to the murder victim and his estranged father. There's no telling where AR will pop up. Any others?
posted via 109.145.202.67 user Tiss_Flower.
message 43930 - 01/20/18
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Sinbad
WD was published in autumn1937, a couple of months after Sinbad the dog joined the Campbell, but well before he became famous during the Battle of the North Atlantic.

Sinbad the Sailor seems the most likely source for the moggy and the pooch.
posted via 88.110.83.67 user Mike_Jones.


message 43929 - 01/19/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Sinbad
Hh'mmm.... To me, the kitten was always just named after Sinbad The Sailor. And if it had been a giraffe or an elephant -- assuming the Swallows could have rescued it :) -- they would still have called it Sinbad.
posted via 124.171.149.247 user mikefield.
message 43928 - 01/19/18
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
That was Captain Sir Basil Liddell-Hart, Dave -- "British historian and theoretician of war". Good spotting. I think he's a good candidate. But I think Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden is a good candidate too (as is Mahan), and I'm not sure we'll ever know who exactly AR had in mind as the author.
posted via 124.171.149.247 user mikefield.
message 43927 - 01/19/18
From: David Bamford, subject: Sinbad
Today's edition of the website 'Atlas Obscura' has a story about sea-going pets. It featured one 'Sinbad', a dog on board the USCG ship 'Campbell', torpedoed during convoy-protection duties in the Battle of the Atlantic. Sinbad was awarded six medals during his wartime service, anbd considerable press publicity. Could this gave suggested a name for a certain small abandoned kitten? Or was it just the well-known sailor from the "Arabian Nights, whose name was given to both dog and kitten?
posted via 120.148.2.68 user David.
message 43926 - 01/19/18
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
There was an English academic who was a very good strategist, quite prominent in the thirties, and whose name eludes me for the moment. Could it have been Liddell, or am I getting confused with the BBC announcer? I think that his given name was Basil. He predicted the Japanese 'island-hopping' invasions of the Pacific war. Can anyone else come up with the rest of his name? He may have been the source of John's quotation.
posted via 120.148.2.68 user David.
message 43925 - 01/19/18
From: Jon, subject: Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
IIRC there've been other book quotes in the 12 that couldn't be traced, verbatim, to any particular book. "Nests Abroad" may be the most glaring. I think there are also some books referenced where the titles haven't matched up with anything currently identifiable. Given that in SA John was bringing The Seaman's Handy Book, a US Navy publication, he evidently had a better-than-normal acquaintance with American naval and maritime writings.
posted via 98.218.103.166 user Jon.
message 43924 - 01/19/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
I have often wondered about this bit. It has been discussed several times before on TarBoard and no doubt elsewhere but I don't think anyone has ever come up with a definitive source for this "well-known book". I don't think that Sun Tzu is a likely source, for a start it is not about naval warfare and I also wonder how well it was known in 1920s England.
Alfred Thayer Mahan does seem a likely possibility but the quote has not yet been found in his works. Of course, John could have paraphrased the meaning in which case finding the quote would be difficult.
I wonder if there were any naval warfare books of the right date in Ransome's library? Or perhaps it was one of the one's which Ivy and Tabitha impounded and sold.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 43923 - 01/18/18
From: Jon, subject: Re: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
I always figured he was referring to Alfred Thayer Mahan.
posted via 98.218.103.166 user Jon.
message 43922 - 01/18/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Well-known book on Naval Warfare
S&A - Chapter XVII

“In naval warfare,” said John, remembering a well-known book, “two things are important; to know exactly what you want to do and to do it in the manner that your enemy least expects.”

I don't think this is exactly what is said in 'The Art of War' by Sun Tzu. Was it that book, or another, that Ransome was referring to?

posted via 81.129.149.81 user Magnus.


message 43921 - 01/16/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: AR Typsetting, was Re: Misprint in Great Northern?
Having suggested that swap of "us" and "an", I now wonder how it may have come about, or if it is a viable hypothesis at all.

Specifically, was GN? printed from locked formes, with such moveable type as I at first imagined, where "us" and "an" would have been individual pieces of cast type able to be moved about independantly? Or was it printed from etched plates, where the entire text of a signature (so several pages worth of type) was etched, complete, into a single metal plate? If the former, my hypothesis has merit. If the latter...

Perhaps an etched plate might have been created using a forme --with the moveable type-- in which case my original hypothesis stands. A forme could have been made up, locked, and used to print the plate with an acid-resist, then the forme would have been rearranged into the text needed for next plate, etc. The book itself would have been printed off the plates while the formes and type were merely part of the typesetting process, used and re-used for any number of books. I imagine this would be much easier (and cheaper) for Cape than keeping/storing a complete set of formes. Later editions, once the mistake had been noted, would have had a new plate etched with corrected type.

But if the original plate was photo-engraved(?), where no formes were involved(?), we'd need to look for a different explanation.

I simply don't know enough about the printing process of that era to guess with any authority. My original guess ("us"/"an") feels sound to me, but I'd want to hear from a printer with historical knowledge before I called it gospel.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43920 - 01/16/18
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Misprint in Great Northern?
Cook is described as old. If it was 1933 and she was 63, she would have been born around 1870, the year compulsory eduction was introduced. In 1880 when she was 10 it was still possible in some areas - especially, I suspect, rural ones - to leave school at 10 (not raised nationally to 11 until 1893).

Rural education in the late 19th century is described, for example, in Lark Rise to Candleford by Flora Thompson.
posted via 95.148.181.242 user eclrh.


message 43919 - 01/16/18
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Misprint in Great Northern?
Yes, I think this is one of the rare AR errors, but a very excusable one. AR wants us to 'hear' Cook's kindly voice as Dick reads the note. I suppose Cook would use 'owt' in written form, because this word is not mis-spelt and she would have seen the word in print in North Country fiction and the local press. However, she would surely not have written 'makin', but would have included the 'g', as she did in 'wanting' in the very next sentence. In print, 'makin' is a spelling mistake which Cook would not make. But, in haste, she perhaps would have left the apostrophe out of 'owts'.

None of this is any sort of problem and is a bit pedantic, but I find it of interest. The pitfalls of authorship!
posted via 86.156.56.162 user Peter_H.


message 43918 - 01/15/18
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Misprint in Great Northern?
We find out that Cook's surname is Braithwaite earlier in P&M when she leaves a note at the Dogs Home.

"Cook," said Dorothea, reading a scrap of paper by the flick-
ering light. "And I've gone and missed her." She gave Dick the
scrap of paper and he read:

Hope your makin do. If owts wanting you can tell Jacky.

M. Braithwaite.

It seems odd that she would write a note in dialect, it sounds like something she would say out loud but surely she would have been taught "proper English" for more formal things even short notes.

posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43917 - 01/15/18
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Misprint in Great Northern?
Found NO reference to "Lewis" in any of the GN books.
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.
message 43916 - 01/15/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Misprint in Great Northern?
Yes, Alex’s idea that two two-letter typefaces "an" and "us" got mistakenly reversed seems most likely!
posted via 202.49.158.52 user hugo.
message 43915 - 01/15/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: S&A, Chp 1
Good one - I think you're right about WDMTGTS. An author has to subtly sneak in the teaching that his readers might need later, but without telling them. He has to show, not tell (a popular theme in how-to books about writing fiction).

I saw a very small example of a similar matter, only just now, but it is a debatable one that just happens to resonate with me personally.

In P&M Chapter XX:
“She knows, with her son a policeman and all,” said Jacky. “I asked Mrs. Braithwaite at Beckfoot, but she wouldn’t tell me nowt.”
“Who is Mrs. Braithwaite?” asked Dick.
“That’s Cook,” said Dorothea. “Go on, Jacky. What did she say?”

Now some people might see this as blatantly telling your readers, not showing. And half-way through the 11th book is a late time to impart such information too!

But to me, this is just such a classic moment of true observation on the male-versus-female brain. I have said the same thing to my wife so many times:
Wife: "I will ask Deirdre to look after the cat next week."
Me: "Who's that?! Never heard of her!
Wife: "You spoke to her yesterday; the lady with a bad leg who lives three doors down and we see in church if it's not raining. She's got a son called Bernard and her ex-husband was in the RAF. She likes cheese-rolling and poker."
Me: "I am aware of the existence of this person. I swear nobody has ever mentioned her name in my presence."
Wife: [rolls eyes]

posted via 81.129.149.81 user Magnus.


message 43914 - 01/14/18
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Misprint in Great Northern?
I find no reference to this in a quick look aat Wayne Hammond's "Bibliography" nor in the Addenda and Corrigenda from 2009. However his Bibliography doesn't delve down to that level (as opposed to his Tolkien Bibliography, which of necessity does). Having said that, it is a curious misprint and I incline to agree with Alex about the (mis)use of 2-letter type elements.

I don't think there is any reference to "Lewis" in the book, but would defer to Ed if he finds differently.


posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43913 - 01/14/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Misprint in Great Northern?
My 1948 Macmillan has the correct text, as does my 2003 Godine.

Interesting that "Sanus" is an anagram of Susan, but not a reversal --"nasuS". If it were a typesetter's error, I suppose I could see how the upper case "S" would obviously go first in the chase, when making up the forme, and then the rest... got scrambled. If they were using pre-cast two-letter increments --both "us" and "an" being useful words on their own-- it might have been a case of using an upper-case "S" and then swapping the next two type-pieces.

Interesting quirk! Sort of a "Wicked Bible" of A&R.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43912 - 01/14/18
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Misprint in Great Northern?
Checked my 1947 Cape Edition (a 1st.) and it is 'Susan' there, but my 1964 edition is as yours - 'Sanus'.
posted via 95.149.55.225 user MTD.
message 43911 - 01/13/18
From: John Wilson, subject: Misprint in Great Northern?
My copy of ''Great Northern'' has an interesting misprint in Chapter II, when Roger says "We jolly well won’t (go back) ..... and earned a grim look from Sanus". Of course in the Red Fox edition I checked, it is " .... a grim look from Susan". Susan not Sanus. Mine is a Cape hardback, page 31: the Eighth Impression, January 1956; Type reset 1958; Reprinted 1964. So I suppose the error was made in 1958?

PS: Is Lewis or the Isle of Lewis mentioned by name in GN? The 2013 Red Fox edition has a map of the north of Scotland showing Oban and Mallig, Skye and Lewis.
posted via 203.96.138.207 user hugo.


message 43910 - 01/13/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: S&A, Chp 1

I have encountered lesser versions of it throughout the series, but S&A Chp1 is the best of the lot.

The only other one that leaps to mind is WDMTGTS Chp1, where we see Goblin almost miss her mooring and be swept away by the tide. It's a good forewarning of "bad things happen if you're at the mercy of the tide" that sets the stage for the later drama. However, it's not as immersive a prelude.

He then does similar, smaller things throughout the earlier chapters of WDMTGTS --a constant awareness of tide, current, and shoal water, the boat stuck on the mudflat, etc. But that's just basic writer's craft.

It's the scale of his accomplishment in S&A Chp1 and the subliminal ease of it that, for me, puts it in the context of genius. Sailing is *not* a simple art to explain, and in that instance he does it so very, very well.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43909 - 01/13/18
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: S&A, Chp 1
Wow. Just wow!

I cannot believe I have never noticed this before. It all is so clever and cunning, yet totally unforced and almost subliminal.

Alex, can we have your observations on other chapters and other books please!
posted via 81.129.149.81 user Magnus.


message 43908 - 01/06/18
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: S&A, Chp 1
Oh yes, I do agree with you Alex! Each evening when I climb into bed before my partner does, I read a few pages (currently of S&A) as a sort of 'nightcap'. I read it slowly, not for the story, but for the writing. I revel in the way AR uses his words so economically. I also enjoy the naturalness of the children's conversations.
posted via 120.148.65.37 user David.
message 43906 - 01/05/18
From: Alex Forbes, subject: S&A, Chp 1
Again and again I come back to AR's brilliant chapter 1 of S&A.

First there is, in the first sentence, so much of what you need to know about Roger, his family, his mother's mindset, and the character of his (their) interactions with the world. None of the information is forced, not a word is wasted, and it soaks in effortlessly, allowing us to see the Walkers exactly as we need to for the coming story.

Beyond that, I cannot imagine a better way to introduce the concepts of beating and running to readers who might never have had cause to imagine how a sailboat must interact with the wind. A child zig-zagging up a hill, a little out of breath and wishing he could just run straight into the wind, perfectly anthropomorphizes the concept, and allows us to understand intuitively the intrinsic frustrations of tacking into a wind. Then the way Roger puts his arms out and runs back down the hill makes it clear just what a boat must do, and how much easier is that point of sail.

It is a chapter of genius, giving the reader all they need to know about the central conflict of the story to come: which way will the wind be, in the war with the Amazons? I don't know of any other book that teaches those fundamentals of sailing on so intuitive a level.

As a writer, I am always stunned and delighted by that chapter more than any other.

Just had to rave about it.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43905 - 12/27/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Merry Christmas and Season's Greetings to all TarBoard readers
Minus 26 degrees Celsius this morning, but the sun is shining and the world is beautiful in its white blanket.
posted via 184.151.36.253 user rlcossar.
message 43904 - 12/25/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Merry Christmas and Season's Greetings to all TarBoard readers
In Melbourne, it began nice and cool (21deg. C,) but warmed up during the afternoon until airconditioning was required for the drive home.
posted via 120.148.36.174 user David.
message 43903 - 12/24/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Merry Christmas and Season's Greetings to all TarBoard readers
Thank you Adam and seasons greetings to everyone.

I envy you the snow, here in Secret Water country its just another too warm day for the time of year and trying to rain!
posted via 2.28.231.174 user MTD.


message 43902 - 12/24/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Merry Christmas and Season's Greetings to all TarBoard readers
Softly, at first, as if it hardly meant it, the snow began to fall.

It is still early evening on Christmas Eve here in Toronto with the snow falling a bit harder since it started earlier this afternoon but it is not a blizzard so I won't be making a sailing dash for the North Pole.

May all TarBoarders have a very Merry Christmas and don't blow all your money on a mincing machine.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43901 - 12/23/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Public Domain
Generally the copyright of a book (and the characters?) depends on the years (70 or 50) since death of the author and is not affected by a remake of a film. The stories of Arthur Conan Doyle (died 1930) are out of copyright and presumably can be freely used. The same story could be filmed in 2017 and again in 2018.

In America though works published in the United States prior to 1928 are all in the public domain. From 1928 to 1977 the period was 95 years from date of publication and could require renewal, hence the books in the S&A series could have different expiry years? The Wikipedia article below mentions a 2016 case law ruling that remastering of pre-1972 music extended copyright because of the work involved, but I do not know if this ruling extended to films? And would it apply to the original unremastered work? The 1998 "Sonny Bono" Copyright Extension Act extended copyright for works of corporate authorship like Disney’s Mickey Mouse films to the earlier of 120 years since creation or 95 years since publication.

posted via 203.96.138.96 user hugo.
message 43900 - 12/21/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Public Domain
I assume the copyright only ceases on works that have not been re-published recently? This is Disney's usual method; to bring out a revamped version in some new format, just to stop it slipping into the public domain.
posted via 81.129.149.81 user Magnus.
message 43899 - 12/20/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Public Domain

AR's works re: public domain in 2018:

http://publicdomainreview.org/collections/class-of-2018/

(At the bottom of the article.)

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43898 - 12/17/17
From: Paul, subject: Re: LP Record
Enjoyed it when first I heard it. I'll have to dig out my copy - and then a device on which to play it!

posted via 86.153.140.106 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43897 - 12/17/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: LP Record
Sorry about the previous post, can't even spell my own name!
posted via 95.145.229.143 user MTD.
message 43896 - 12/17/17
From: Nike Dennis, subject: Re: LP Record
Its was released at the time of the 1974 film of 'Swallows and Amazons' and includes music from the original soundtrack and some of the dialogue linked to convey the story (so long since I've listened to my copy!)
posted via 95.145.229.143 user MTD.
message 43895 - 12/17/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: LP Record
LP of what?
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43894 - 12/17/17
From: kay, subject: LP Record
I spotted an LP which seems to be audio with some theme music and some of the original dialogue. Does anyone know if this is a good thing to collect (price was £1.99) or is it just a 'cash in?
posted via 90.193.117.37 user Kay.
message 43893 - 12/13/17
From: Kay, subject: Re: Coots In The North
Mark. I got mine from Ebay at just over £6 It said 'acceptable' condition but when I got it it looked almost as new. Guess I was just lucky
posted via 90.193.117.37 user Kay.
message 43892 - 12/13/17
From: Mark D, subject: Re: Coots In The North
I've been looking for this for some time. The only copies I've seen seem to be going for silly money. The cheapest I've seen recently is a used copy on Amazon at £33.
posted via 185.125.226.2 user MarkD.
message 43891 - 12/12/17
From: Kay, subject: Coots In The North
60 years after my Uncle gave me The Big Six for Christmas (followed by Coot Club) the following year I found this site and am reading the 12 again.
I had not heard of the story (or more correctly part story) and was lucky to find a copy and am reading it with the plaintiff sounds of Hank Williams for accompaniment.
I read here (or somewhere) that AR abandoned the story and one reason given was he didn't know how to get the boys home yet it seems to me there is a simple mechanism for this.
Like AR I have a soft spot for the D & Gs and think if AR had finished it it would have been another wonderful book. Still I guess I'll have to be satisfied at meeting them again after all this time.
posted via 90.193.117.37 user Kay.
message 43890 - 12/10/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: The Value of 1st Editions was Re: Sale of 1st editions
there are times when the physical book has almost as much importance as the text they contain.
And of course, there's always the value of marginal notes. My father was a prolific marginal noter.
He'd been an air raid warden in his time- I still have his tin hat hanging in the hall; well, where else do you put it? It's very comfortable and annotated. There's a luggage label inside attached to the webbing that tells where he bought it (Woodrow, Piccadilly) and the date, August '39.
And in "Post D" there are additions to Strachey's text confirming the truth of his observations.
posted via 90.252.99.43 user PeterC.
message 43889 - 12/10/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: The Value of 1st Editions was Re: Sale of 1st editions
I agree Peter, there are times when the physical book has almost as much importance as the text they contain. The first four or five AR's I have were my late brother (who died in childhood) and I have some other books that belonged to my late father, they all have an importance beyond their content.
posted via 95.150.15.63 user MTD.
message 43888 - 12/09/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: The Value of 1st Editions was Re: Sale of 1st editions
Another reason is to see the drawings in their best form (the pre WWII editions.)

I would have thought that this is the main reason to want, if not a first edition, certainly an early one. Plates do lose sharpness and definition with repeated printings.
But otherwise, I agree that as a matter of strict utility, an eBook version is as good as any print edition. I have a shelf-full of the original green Cape 12 hardbacks (except for ML, which has walked away some years ago and is unmissed), but for the ones I actually read reasonably often (WH, PP, PM) I have bought eBook versions.
I do acknowledge that there can be a special thrill in handling an early edition of a book, something that creates a tangible link with a special period in the past. In 1962 (he wrote in the margin) my father bought an original 1941 edition of "Post D- Some Experiences of an Air Raid Warden" by John Strachey. It's splendidly written with the same clarity and unfussy directness as AR's best, and the stories (fiction based on fact) bring the time, and its social assumptions, vividly to life. The book itself was a Gollancz utility edition, between plain blue boards in a yellow dust jacket which has literally fallen apart, and on paper full of acid which has turned it brown and is eating it away. But it's still readable, I keep it by my bed and have read it many times, and the very crumbling state of it takes me back to what Strachey is describing. I remember it as a small child, and I vividly remember the excitement of the sirens. Holding that contemporary book makes it all the sharper.
posted via 90.252.99.43 user PeterC.


message 43887 - 12/08/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Desert Island Discs
About 13 minutes in, in fact... (I thought I'd missed it.)
posted via 124.171.142.20 user mikefield.
message 43886 - 12/07/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: The Value of 1st Editions was Re: Sale of 1st editions
I agree Alex, I value AR's works for all the right reasons and its only recently I've acquired a few first editions. Another reason is to see the drawings in their best form (the pre WWII editions.)
posted via 95.149.55.239 user MTD.
message 43885 - 12/07/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: The Value of 1st Editions was Re: Sale of 1st editions
I've got a couple first editions --an AR (purely by chance) and a Kipling (a gift from a good friend)-- and they are on my shelf to be read. No, technically they offer nothing that a modern reprint doesn't already provide. There is a certain pleasure in handling them, though. Perhaps a reverence for the story? I don't think I would buy a First as an investment, and certainly not of a book that I didn't treasure the story itself, and it would have to be a story that has by its longevity earned a place as a valuable element within my literary psyche. But with the right book, there is definitely a sense of awe, along the lines of "wow! this is where it started!" that is fun.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43884 - 12/07/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: The Value of 1st Editions was Re: Sale of 1st editions
As someone who values books more for their content than their presentation, I cannot really understand those who value a first edition so much more highly than a new edition, or a good second hand copy of the 13th impression.
In my opinion, books are made to be read and even an ebook which is read is more valuable than a first edition kept locked up in a climate controlled bookshelf and never cracked open.
A painting or other work of art can be admired and is usually unique, so I can understand why someone would be prepared to pay more than the artist ever received for it, and I would include an illuminated handwritten book as a work of art. Similarly a very rare and very early printed book could be said to have historical value over and above its intrinsic worth as a book. However a 20th century author's first edition is virtually identical to all following editions and impressions and is basically an industrial product.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 43883 - 12/06/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Sale of 1st editions
It seems that this collection of AR first editions did not sell. The bottom estimate of £8,000 must have been too high. If this is true, then the auctioneers probably over-valued the books other than ‘Swallows and Amazons’. I read today in ‘Jibbooms and Bobstays’, the admirable Newsletter of the Nancy Blackett Trust, that for their marathon all-day reading of ‘We Didn’t Mean to Go to Sea’ in October they obtained a first edition for just £30.
posted via 86.148.81.120 user Peter_H.
message 43882 - 11/26/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Dowsing
There's quite a lively discussion about this on the Arthur Ransome Facebook page. You'll have to scroll down a bit to find it with this reference.
posted via 107.167.112.145 user awhakim.
message 43881 - 11/21/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Dowsing
A report on the BBC for news from Oxford shows that UK water companies are catching up with AR.
posted via 95.150.15.164 user MTD.
message 43876 - 11/21/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: CRAG FAST SHEEP
If so, they can't be all that rare.
posted via 81.129.127.149 user Peter_H.
message 43875 - 11/20/17
From: Paul, subject: Re: CRAG FAST SHEEP
Does that make a total of 30?
posted via 86.144.170.185 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43871 - 11/20/17
From: Dan Lind, subject: CRAG FAST SHEEP
BBC.com news tells of six rare sheep trapped on a ledge after being chased there by pet dogs. They were rescued by firefighters on the Jersey Island.
I bet they researched WH first to find out how to do it.
posted via 70.78.126.205 user captain.
message 43870 - 11/18/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Desert Island Discs
I've remembered, I think, the name of the woman who made the comment - Marghanita Laski.
posted via 95.149.130.62 user MTD.
message 43869 - 11/17/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Desert Island Discs
Thanks for bringing that to our attention.

If she is so sure of this why was so much money invested in the film last year and why are the 12 still all in pring in hardback and paperback?

I remember in the 1970s on 'Any Questions' a woman saying she went to France for her holidays as there was no beautiful countryside in the UK!
posted via 95.149.130.62 user MTD.


message 43868 - 11/17/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Desert Island Discs
This week's castaway is Anna Pavord, the gardener. She speaks of growing up in South Wales, roaming the hills with her brother and a gang influenced "by a man not very much in favour now, Arthur Ransome." Rather a sad reflection.
If you can get BBC iPlayer, the quote is about 11 minutes in.
posted via 107.167.113.33 user awhakim.
message 43867 - 11/16/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Sale of 1st editions
Either that or they loved Peter Duck so much that the book was read to pieces and had to be replaced.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 43866 - 11/16/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Sale of 1st editions
Interesting that the owner didn't like Peter Duck.
posted via 107.167.112.217 user awhakim.
message 43865 - 11/15/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Sale of 1st editions
Next week a collection of all 12 books will be sold by auction in Gloucestershire (UK). The 'Swallows and Amazons' copy is a 1st edition, with (apparently) original dust jacket with Spurrier maps. Most of the others are 1st editions. The estimate is £8,000-12,000. In case you’re interested, here’s the link:

Chorley’s – Sale of AR 1st Edns.


posted via 81.129.127.149 user Peter_H.


message 43864 - 11/13/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Stories: context
. . . and I have always imgined Nancy as being, like AR, a Foreign Correspondent for The Times or Guardian. In her case, she would look for the 'hottest' spots, of which there were plenty in the early forties!
David.
posted via 120.148.68.224 user David.
message 43863 - 11/12/17
From: John W, subject: Re: Stories: context
I like to think of Titty as a war artist (or photographer), and Dorothea as following in her creators footsteps and being a journalist.


posted via 86.19.218.132 user johnw.


message 43862 - 11/09/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: The Little People of the Wood
I hadn't noticed that! Shows he's a good seller!
posted via 95.146.184.217 user MTD.
message 43861 - 11/09/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: The Little People of the Wood
I cant see pages 4 and 5 anywhere, which is a real shame, otherwise we could enjoy the whole thing properly!

So who read Wayne Hammond's addendum and realised there was another mystery book out there? Maybe AR wrote a short story for 'The Book of the Month' in 1909/1910 too? Keep your eyes peeled in the secondhand bookshops everyone!
posted via 86.191.65.146 user Magnus.


message 43860 - 11/08/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: The Little People of the Wood
You can view the final pages if you scroll down through the seller's item description, it also includes Hammond's description from his addendum.
posted via 95.146.184.217 user MTD.
message 43859 - 11/08/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: The Little People of the Wood
Not quite. Wayne Hammond explains why here...
posted via 86.191.65.146 user Magnus.
message 43858 - 11/08/17
From: MarkD, subject: Re: The Little People of the Wood
Just had a quick look and there’s no copy in the TARS library
posted via 159.180.96.201 user MarkD.
message 43857 - 11/08/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: The Little People of the Wood
With Arthur Mee,no less. This one even seems to have escaped Wayne Hammond's Bibliography. See p.225.
posted via 86.148.217.232 user awhakim.
message 43856 - 11/08/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
I must say I missed the connection, Alan. But I doubt if Christina dates from, what was it? 1938. :)

If anyone knows any way of downloading this clip, rather than streaming it, I'd be grateful to learn how. My "streaming", even though I've finally got something to work after a fashion, is more like a few disconnected drips....
posted via 185.186.77.65 user mikefield.


message 43855 - 11/08/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: The Little People of the Wood
Interesting read. I liked how the charcoal burners wigwam appeared and the little observational details of the plants and animals.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 43854 - 11/08/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: The Little People of the Wood
One of Ransome's very early books, from around 1909, is for sale on ebay at present. This 24 page story is so rare that I have never seen a copy in the last ten years.

I'm telling you not so you can bid for it (the price is already over £100) but rather that you grab the chance to look at the photos, for you may never get another opportunity to see a copy!

The seller has photographed about 90% of the book's pages, so you can almost read the whole story. See what you think of the style of writing...

posted via 86.191.65.146 user Magnus.
message 43853 - 11/08/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
In all this discussion, plus arguments on how to get a download (on the other side of this thread, and Facebook) there was a passing complaint that they are on a Margoletta. But has nobody noticed that in fact it's the Lady Christina? Doesn't the name Hardyment come to mind?
posted via 107.167.112.216 user awhakim.
message 43852 - 11/08/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
Okay, finally got it with the aid of a free VPN. Limited downloads though, and jerky. I guess it'll do....
posted via 88.150.131.210 user mikefield.
message 43851 - 11/07/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
Thanks Dave. That's the conclusion I'd come to as well. I don't really want to pay for a VPN that I'd use only once in a blue moon, so I've been putting off doing it. There are a few free ones though, which I'm investigating.

Also, Alan has suggested a private workaround to me, for which I'm most grateful.
posted via 165.227.55.125 user mikefield.


message 43850 - 11/07/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
I've not tried any of this but as a guess, part of what is happening is that the software (Channel 4, iPlayer, and/or Flash) is checking your IP address to see if it's in the declared code area. You might be able to get around this by using something like TOR or see this article on VPNs and how to fool destinations as to where you came from: https://medium.freecodecamp.org/how-to-set-up-a-vpn-in-5-minutes-for-free-and-why-you-urgently-need-one-d5cdba361907.

But the effort might be more than the results warrant, as as the old advert says, "your mileage may vary".

posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43849 - 11/06/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
Channel 4 is funded by the UK government just as the BBC is, but they're not connected (though that's maybe why your having similar problems as people do using the BBC's iPlayer.)
posted via 95.150.15.165 user MTD.
message 43848 - 11/06/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
Ah. Thanks Peter, now I've got you. I clicked on 'Ireland' but, as with you, it reverted to the US. And it still doesn't work. Aaargh!

I appreciate your efforts though -- very many thanks.

Is Channel 4 a part of the BBC as Adam suggests, do you know?
posted via 124.171.146.111 user mikefield.


message 43847 - 11/06/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
Mike - if I go to http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/about/ (sorry, no time to do active link) I get the 'Adobe Flash Player' home screen - at bottom left there is a 'choose region' button. If you click that, you should get a list including 'Australia'. However, if I click on 'Australia', I am sent back to the home screen, which then indicates 'United States'. Can't explain this. Worth a try, anyway.
posted via 81.132.174.210 user Peter_H.
message 43846 - 11/06/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
That is what I see from Canada too. I am used to the BBC not allowing overseas viewers but have no experience with Channel 4.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 43845 - 11/05/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
Thanks again,Peter. From what screen are you selecting 'Choose Your Region'?

I haven't even got that far yet. As soon as I click on your original link I go to what looks the starting screen of the 47 min episode, with the Play button in the middle of a lovely picture of the two of them on what looks a red-painted steel narrowboat. But clicking on the arrow (or the lower one, on the timeline) produces just nothing at all.

Having just come back from a week on the Broads, I'd really like to see their take on it. (More about my time in Ransome country when I get some photos up and running.)

Below that picture mentioned is a list of other episodes -- some of which I'd also like to watch -- with a box stating "Only show episodes I can play" already ticked. But none of them works. Very frustrating....
posted via 124.171.146.111 user mikefield.


message 43844 - 11/05/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
I've just clicked on 'Choose your Region' and then on 'Australia' and ended up with 'United States'. This keeps happening. I think Channel 4 has problems in this area - if you Google on 'Adobe Flash Channel 4' you'll see a long list of issues. I am not sufficiently technically knowledgeable to steer through these, but I suspect, alas, that the 'Canals' programme is not available on demand in your area. To be honest, it's not a 'must watch' AR programme - just a pleasant interlude really.
posted via 81.132.173.188 user Peter_H.
message 43843 - 11/04/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
Thanks Peter. I did indeed update Flash before I started, but no luck. I didn't see an option to 'Choose Your Region', but maybe I missed it? If so, extra guidance would be most welcome.

However, I did see an option to Register myself with Ch 4, but when I tried that my only country choice was UK or Eire. So perhaps it's only a local service anyway? :(
posted via 124.171.146.111 user mikefield.


message 43842 - 11/04/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
Mike - Before the programme would start, I was instructed to update Adobe Flash first - there was a button to do this. If the button hasn't appeared, you could go to http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/about/
and check the version required for your browser. You could also click on 'Choose your Region', which includes Australia.
(Apologies if you know all this, and anyway it may not work.)

posted via 81.129.95.27 user Peter_H.
message 43841 - 11/04/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
I'd love to watch it (and others in the series), but all I get is a tantalising static picture. Aaargh!
posted via 124.171.146.111 user mikefield.
message 43840 - 11/03/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Morse Code
Morse code is not dead yet. The headlines a few years ago referred to the use of morse as a primary means of ship-to-shore communication and the two five-minute periods each hour when radio traffic was kept to a minimum so as to keep the airwaves free for emergency traffic.

The armed forces still use morse code by radio and light. The latter is regularly used by warships for line-of-sight communication. It has the advantage of being directional (with a proper signalling lamp) and un-jammable. As a watch keeping officer I was expected to be able to send and receive at 5 words per minute, a pathetically low speed compared to our experienced tactical signalmen. With a lightweight lamp all you see was a continuous flicker of light.
posted via 2.102.116.46 user MartinH.


message 43839 - 11/01/17
From: Paul, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
You're right, Peter. I, too found it peaceful and Ransomean, a splendid word - it deserves a place in the OED straight away - which instantly sums up all we like about his descriptions of people and places. Our local canal, the Basingstoke, is five minutes' walk away, and whenever I walk the dog along the tow path in the Spring I think of scenes from CC.

The slow television programmes are very good. The other evening I watched the two hour canal boat chug along the Kennet & Avon, and felt totally relaxed after a somewhat hectic day. The first time I saw it I thought it was a pity AR had not set something on a narrow boat. Malcolm Saville redressed the balance, and now the Wests have almost combined the two.
posted via 5.81.204.24 user Paul_Crisp.


message 43838 - 11/01/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
True, perhaps I was too critical (and I was aware of Prunella Scales onset of dementia), perhaps it comes from knowing the books so well! I did think it was a pity it was all squashed in to one programme.
posted via 2.29.96.120 user MTD.
message 43837 - 11/01/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
Yes, if Prunella Scales had read CC a few months ago she would most likely have forgotten it now. Instead she relied on long-term memory of reading AR as a child, which I found quite genuine. The programme is not meant to be accurate reportage of a "the Norfolk Broads today" type, but is a film of a gentle cruise, mainly playing on the affectionate and whimsical relationship of the couple. It is really part of the "slow television" fashion at the moment. I found it peaceful and somehow Ransomean. We do hear about some modern hullabaloos being apprehended!
posted via 31.51.45.214 user Peter_H.
message 43836 - 11/01/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
Don't be too hard on Prunella Scales. She is suffering from dementia.

Not having seen the canal programmes, I can't compare it, but it passed a pleasant hour. I would have liked to see the railway posters advertising Broads Holidays featured as well as the boating catalogues.
posted via 88.110.85.110 user Mike_Jones.


message 43835 - 11/01/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: TV 'Coot Club' trip
Sorry to disagree Peter, but I found the programme disappointing other than some great footage of the broads from the air (and as much as I admire both of them for their acting.) To be told that the Broads themselves are 'man made' is a 'secret' was odd!

There were moments when Prunella Scales comments about CC came across as if she had never read the book until asked to for the programme.

They could have made more about how AR was actually highlighting that the increase in tourist usage even in the 1930s was harming the Broads, it was busy with hire boats when I visited as a child in the 1960s but some of the footage would maybe put people off going there at all!

So for the two of them that's the Broads done and dusted, previous series have covered a whole area's canals and waterways.
posted via 2.29.96.120 user MTD.


message 43834 - 10/30/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: AR eBooks
I know Amazon will sell me stuff from their US site, though they do push the Canadian site when I try it. So I hope Chapters will let your mother buy Ransome ebooks.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 43833 - 10/30/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: TV 'Coot Club' trip
If you have an hour to spare, I recommend an episode of the Channel 4 'Great Canal Journeys' series (including waterways) starring veteran actors Timothy West and Prunella Scales. This episode features the Norfolk Broads - they hire a restored 1938 launch and set off from Horning. Prunella was brought up on Ransome and has 'Coot Club' with her, and quotes from it frequently. Good camera-work, and there's some historical footage as well. It's very peaceful - no drama, but quiet and charming. Margoletta they are not, but a fair amount of red wine is consumed . . .

Timothy West and Prunella Scales on Coot Club journey

posted via 31.51.45.214 user Peter_H.


message 43832 - 10/30/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: AR eBooks

Thanks Adam. I've both bookmarked the site for myself and sent it to my mother. Hopefully they'll sell to those of us south of Lat 49.

Yes, Kobo and Nook both use ePub.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43831 - 10/30/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Stories: context
But there is a new biography of Powell being serialised on Radio 4 this week - 1.45 pm daily.

Thank you, yes. I've got it on Kindle and reading it now.
Well worth it. The pleasure of relating the life to the novels is great.

posted via 90.252.108.93 user PeterC.


message 43830 - 10/30/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Stories: context
My answer to this is to get a Kobo instead of a Kindle.

Maybe. I was referring there to an iPad, which I use with the Kindle app because navigation and searches are so much better than on my (early) Kindle. But the Kindle is ex-my wife's, and she is against half measures so it has front illumination by flip-up LED, which works very well. It's just the user interface which is a pain in the bum. I'm sure the newer ones must be better.
posted via 90.252.108.93 user PeterC.


message 43829 - 10/30/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: AR eBooks
I bought mine from Chapters Indigo. It is a Canadian company so I don't know what their policy is for selling to other countries. Mine were for the Kobo ereader but I think Nook and Kobo both use the epub file format.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 43828 - 10/29/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Stories: context
"...although best read in the shade."

My answer to this is to get a Kobo instead of a Kindle. They're front-lit with adjustable levels of brightness, and can be read if necessary on a moonless midnight inside a snake's stomach. :)
posted via 124.171.146.111 user mikefield.


message 43827 - 10/29/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Stories: context
But there is a new biography of Powell being serialised on Radio 4 this week - 1.45 pm daily.
posted via 107.167.113.32 user awhakim.
message 43826 - 10/29/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: AR eBooks

At long last my mother has been reading S&A. She is thoroughly enjoying them (no surprise), and has just finished PD. Her preferred medium is eBook --specifically Nook-- but while she has found up through WH, and then WDMTGTS, she can't find the others. Can anyone point me (thus her) to a source?

Thanks,
Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43825 - 10/29/17
From: Mark D, subject: Rugby School
Just spent the weekend at Rugby School, AR's alma mater, as a friend of mine is a boarding house master there. It's quite a lovely school, and was lovely to sit on the Close and imagine the famous faces looking on it as boys.

https://sophieneville.net/2013/12/11/unveiling-a-plaque-to-arthur-ransome-at-rugby-school/

posted via 148.252.129.180 user MarkD.


message 43824 - 10/29/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Stories: context
Kindle may be the answer. The paperback I have been given is in depressingly small print.

Kindle is the answer to most things, provided that an electronic version of the book is available. Overy's account is on the dense side, and small print must make it harder going. I read my Kindle books on an iPad Mini, where the print is hyper-clear although best read in the shade. You can get magnetic soft covers very cheaply, and they fit into the same pocket as a paperback, although much thinner. Searching for and finding text, and navigation, is much better than on the early Kindle machine I also have.
And of course, although this is definitely off topic, it's a rather nice camera permanently in your pocket.
Drawbacks? Battery life isn't as long as the Kindle's, although what are night times for? And I would like to get Anthony Powell's memoirs but they are both out of print and not in ebook. Drat.
posted via 90.252.108.93 user PeterC.


message 43823 - 10/29/17
From: Paul, subject: Re: Morse Code
Reading an account of the Palestine campaign in the Great War I came across mention of an Indian Army telegrapher who could receiver and answer an incoming message with one hand whilst forwarding it with the other. When the British officers who saw this expressed surprise the chap said that it was commonplace with telegraphers from the Indian railways - obviously it was
-. --- .--. .-. --- -... .-.. . --
posted via 5.81.204.24 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43822 - 10/28/17
From: Dan Lind, subject: Re: Morse Code
I;m so pleased to read that while Morse is gone - more or less - it is not forgotten. I learned sending Morse from a Canadian key, and was surprised when I went to sea to find the Marconi key, built like a tank complete with a big knob, and as I recall, ball-bearings. It stuck out on the edge of the desk and there was no place to put your elbow. I soon fixed that by removing the Marconi from the desk, installing a flexible cord, and removing that big knob; Those were the days....
posted via 70.78.126.205 user captain.
message 43821 - 10/28/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Stories: context
Kindle may be the answer. The paperback I have been given is in depressingly small print.
posted via 88.110.92.248 user Mike_Jones.
message 43820 - 10/28/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Stories: context
Dick's role in inventing the cavity magnetron is of course well known.

Really? I always thought that the names of the real inventors/developers, Randall and Boot were so perfect, I had Dick down as working on Gee and Oboe. I always like to think that he might have run across Roger in the RAF.
posted via 90.252.108.93 user PeterC.


message 43819 - 10/28/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Stories: context
I am currently reading "The Morbid Age - Britain and the Crisis of Civilization 1919 - 1939" by Richard Overy.
And now, so am I. Thank you for the heads up. And thank heaven for Kindle.
posted via 90.252.108.93 user PeterC.
message 43818 - 10/27/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Morse Code
In learning Morse Code, there are certain memory gimmicks that can help, such as, for "Q", which suggests "QUEEN" - and that reminds me of: "GOD SAVE the QUEEN" - note which words receive emphasis and take more time, whereas the "the" is quick and short, so the code that is suggested is "DASH, DASH, DOT, DASH", the code for "Q".

There is a "secret" that almost everyone knows, and that is the little line that goes: "SHAVE AND A HAIR CUT, TWO BITS". When this is spoken the "AND A" part is a pair of words but spoken rather quickly together, whereas the other words are held longer. If one is knocking at the door of a friend, one might want to use this "secret" code to indicate that "Hey, it's ME out here..." The knocking of this phrase sounds like: "tap, taptap, tap tap - pause - tap tap". If this tapping was interpreted to be Morse Code, the double taptap done quickly together is the DASH, whereas the others are just single taps. As for timing, the time to do a "TAP" is the SAME as the "TAPTAP" - reminds me of the DOUBLE CLICK on a computer MOUSE. So when tapping in Morse, the distinguishing feature is NOT the "DASH takes 3 times longer" as that is the rule for sending Morse using a flashlight, or a whistle. There is a certain beat the sender uses such that a unit of time is spent in sending the TAP as is spend in sending the TAPTAP, with two units of time for the "PAUSE" which indicates the end of that CHARACTER, or five units of time to indicate the end of a WORD.

So the SHAVE and a HAIR CUT, TWO BITS, when tapped, is MORSE for: "DOT, DASH, DOT, DOT - pause - DOT DOT" which is the code for "L" and "I".

One cannot TAP a Short tap for DOT, and a LONG TAP for DASH. Length of time cannot be used to distinguish the tapped DOT from the tapped DASH. To try to distinguish by a different timing, one gets ambiguous meanings, as one might try to pause a moment to tap for a DASH, but what is then the difference between a DASH, and a DOT at the end of the character? The PAUSE is a separator, not a part of the letter.

A long TAP? Doesn't work. A BANG is a BANG is a BANG.

At least, this is the way that was taught to me as a kid, and we made use of it, using the steam pipes and a system of radiators to communicate to anywhere in the building - that tapping sound really carries through those pipes.

Years ago, I saw this same explanation in a SEA SCOUTS handbook.

If the OFFICIAL SCOUT concept has dropped Morse code, that may not be in there any more, unless one finds an OLD copy somewhere.

Hope this helps understand the how.

The problem with learning Morse is trying to find someone else likewise interested to practice with.

A note of warning: do not try to tap using the knuckles, as that skin won't last more than a few words, but use the butt end of a pocket knife for example instead, or some other tool.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43817 - 10/27/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Morse Code
I assumed CF simply whacked harder for the dashes than for the dots.
posted via 88.110.92.248 user Mike_Jones.
message 43816 - 10/27/17
From: Peter Wagner, subject: Morse Code
In a recent post, {Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)), Ed mentioned tapping in Morse Code. I have never been happy with the concept of reliably sending Morse Code by tapping, as a dash (dah) is three times as long as a dot (dit). Tapping just produces a transient sound not a sustained sound. So "M" (- -) would sound very similar to "EE" (. .) et cetera (just for a bit of Latin too!).
posted via 94.250.228.202 user PeterW.
message 43815 - 10/26/17
From: Harry Milldf, subject: Re: For Harry Miller
Thanks for the wake up call Mike and for the link I must have missed in 2008
posted via 76.64.142.166 user dreadnaught.
message 43814 - 10/26/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Stories: context
While it is good to see AR in such distinguished company, to suggest that he supported Stalin seems a bit rich.

Quite bonkers, I'd have thought. His real passion was for Lenin, wasn't it? Apart from Genia, of course.
posted via 90.252.108.93 user PeterC.


message 43813 - 10/25/17
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Stories: context
But I thought that Nancy was in SOE? In Missee Lee (p188) she hints that she was good at French. I gather that the files are still subject to the 100-year rule, so whatever it was must have been of exceptional secrecy.

Dick's role in inventing the cavity magnetron is of course well known. Without him the Battle of the Atlantic might have taken an entirely different course.


posted via 86.186.129.248 user RobinSelby.


message 43812 - 10/25/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
I must admit I agree Peter (about Dorothea), along with Nancy I've always felt these are AR's most realistic characters

I think that may be because the originals were close by. Dot, I believe, was AR's affectionate satirical take on himself, the author. Nancy might well have been drawn in part from Taqui Altounyan, the other half of who would have been John. Obviously, you always have to bear in mind that they are imaginary characters. I can't see any of them as clones, except perhaps for Roger Walker/Altounyan, who is described in SA as being teased for his interest in steam ships instead of sail, and who in real life became a flying instructor. I find it hard to think of him as being much different from his AR character.
posted via 90.252.108.93 user PeterC.


message 43811 - 10/24/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Stories: context
I have speculated in this way myself Peter.

My views (and please everyone remember this is no more than a game) that John was in the Navy but nothing as outstanding as he may have hoped for, Roger in the Navy too but taken prisoner in the far east.

Ted Walker, I imagine would have been heavily involved (as being already in the Navy) but is killed in the early years of the war.

Susan, also in the Navy but in a far more important work than any of the others desk-base. Dick, a definite for Bletchley Park recruited from university.

I agree with you about Nancy and feel she would have been frustrated by the lack of action!

Titty and Dorothea I imagine surviving in London, with Titty having a good time much in the way Mary Wesley wrote of her own wartime experiences in her novel 'The Camomile Lawn'. As for Peggy, I don't know, probably tried to be like Nancy but never quite achieved it.
posted via 2.31.102.228 user MTD.


message 43810 - 10/24/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
I must admit I agree Peter (about Dorothea), along with Nancy I've always felt these are AR's most realistic characters. I know from posts here that Susan has her supporters but other than in WDMTGTS she always seems too perfect!
posted via 2.31.102.228 user MTD.
message 43809 - 10/24/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
Thanks Martin, I was curious as to begin with I had trouble with reading (looking back I would now have been probably diagnosed as being dyslexic) but it all fell in to place when I was about 8 or 9 and I became the kind of reader you describe.
posted via 2.31.102.228 user MTD.
message 43808 - 10/24/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Stories: context
An interesting post, Peter. I am currently reading "The Morbid Age - Britain and the Crisis of Civilization 1919 - 1939" by Richard Overy. It provides a very thorough backdrop to the literary world of the Twenties and Thirties, e.g. AR's sympathy with developments in Russia until the death of Lenin and the removal of Trotzky, and the preoccupations of the Dons in Dorothy L. Sayers' "Gaudy Night".

On the perennial question of AR's politics, in Tuesday's "Times" Melanie Phillips, comparing the evils of fascism and communism, refers to "many other cultural figures who supported Stalin and the Soviet Union, such as the writers Sidney and Beatrice Webb, Arthur Ransome, Bertolt Brecht, Picasso, Charlie Chaplin and more."

While it is good to see AR in such distinguished company, to suggest that he supported Stalin seems a bit rich.

posted via 88.110.92.248 user Mike_Jones.


message 43807 - 10/24/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Stories: context
I've just been going through WH (yet) again. I usually have several books on the go, the other current ones being the memoirs of Barbara Skelton "Tears Before Bed-Time", which couldn't be more unlike AR's stories, and is great fun, and "The Auden Generation" by Samuel Hines, about the generation of English poets in the 1930s, and which covers much of the period in which AR's stories were written and take place. It covers that time in which young poets were trying to get over the fact that they had failed to participate in the Great War of '14-'18, and so failed to be able to prove themselves as their immediate predecessors had done, and felt it terribly keenly. They were also fascinated and terrified by the coming war, foretold by the rise of the Nazis and Fascists, by the Spanish Civil War, in which several of their number died, and which presented them with an existential question; what use were they, what use was their poetry?
Reading this in between bouts of the igloo in the snow, and Molly Blackett cheerfully visiting from Beckfoot all, thanks to the skill of AR, vivid and realistic, creates a completely real place and time. And it does, as we have discussed here, lead to questions like "Was Ted Walker on the planning staff for D-Day?" We know what Roger did (RAF flying instructor). How about Dick? War Office science? Radio navigation? And Susan, hugely methodical and trustworthy. Bletchley Park? Dot, Titty, Peggy- cypherines? Maybe in the middle east (that happened to Barbara Skelton- but she became a mistress of, among many others, King Farouk, who whipped her with a pyjama cord on the steps of the palace, in Cairo. I'm not sure that this would have tempted any of AR's girls) Nancy might have run a chunk of the ATS or, the nearest thing to being freelance, run her own transport/ambulance unit? Or, of course, Farouk. She was lively enough.
The point is, reading the books together does open all of them to wider ideas. Makes them all the better.
posted via 90.255.62.49 user PeterC.
message 43806 - 10/24/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
Mike Dennis asked, "Do you think you were an exceptional reader"

I probably was, but at the time probably didn't think so. At home we were encouraged to read from an early age, and I read anything I could get my hands on: books, comics, backs of cereal packets etc. When starting senior school we were given a reading list and were told that by the end of the year we should have read at least twelve books from it. I could tick off far more than twelve so went on with reading what I wanted.

A that time I was reading a wide variety: The "Biggles" books, Green Sailors, the Lone Pine series, the Jennings books, SF authors such as Asimov and Heinlein; classics like The Railway Children, Mary Poppins and Kidnapped.

I still tend to be an enthusiastic and eclectic reader, though with a high percentage of non-fiction. Some of those childhood books seem dated now, but the S&A series are as good as ever.
posted via 2.102.116.46 user MartinH.


message 43805 - 10/24/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
Thank you Alex.

The copy of ML I had was my mother's childhood copy, printed on wartime utility paper. Similarly the copy of SD. Now this is now in a state of near ruin. I read it so often that that the spine was damaged and the front cover is falling off.

The sinking of Wild Cat and the way that Swallow and Amazon separated afterwards always moved me. But I was excited by the escape of Shining Moon through the gorge and although I didn't initially grasp the details understood that it was a great feat of seamanship.
posted via 2.102.116.46 user MartinH.


message 43804 - 10/24/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
However, it is now one of those I don't read much at all.

Same here. In fact, I have the green JCs lined up in my book case, and discovered when I wanted to look up something that ML was the only one missing. I have no idea where it might be.
These days there's always the possibility of downloading a Kindle copy. I've done that for my favourites- PM and WH, which I dip into on park benches and in cafés. Instant pleasure and relaxation.
You can tell that I'm in love with Dorothea.
posted via 90.255.62.49 user PeterC.


message 43803 - 10/23/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)

"And you may, yourselves, have read in the newspapers how the people of St. Mawes, in Cornwall, woke one morning to find a little Chinese junk, with a monkey at the masthead, anchored off their harbor mouth."

We read ML at the same age, and with the same ignorance that it was metafiction. It was my favorite at the time; I literally read the (dust) cover off the book (it's now tucked inside the boards). However, it is now one of those I don't read much at all.
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43802 - 10/23/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
Though we have different views on ML Martin, interesting that you say you read it when you were 6 or 7. Do you think you were an exceptional reader (my wife's granddaughter was, so much so she pretended at primary school she was less able than she was!) These days when you look at the books aimed at that age group they are certainly not the calibre of AR!
posted via 2.31.102.228 user MTD.
message 43801 - 10/23/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
I have always enjoyed ML, and as it was one the first of AR's books I read (probably aged 6 or 7) it was a while before I realised that it, along with PD, was metafiction.

I think the last sentence is one of my favourites - the people of St Mawes waking to find a Chinese junk at anchor with a monkey at the masthead. Sorry I don't have a copy to hand, so provide the exact quotation.

posted via 2.102.116.46 user MartinH.


message 43800 - 10/22/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Trip to the UK
Thanks for posting that link, Mike. It was quite moving. I could easily relate to being unable to keep up with the demands of a boat, but also the attachment which one feels toward it. I still like to hear from friends how Swallow is faring. Her new owners are live-aboards, so have changed the interior to provide the necessary extra comforts which that lifestyle needs.
posted via 120.148.68.224 user David.
message 43799 - 10/22/17
From: Ancient Tarboarder, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
Oh yes, Peter, oh yes.
posted via 86.139.51.242 user beardbiter.
message 43798 - 10/22/17
From: beardbiter, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
Seems a long time since I last posted on Tarboard- Facebook is just too easy...
Anyway, I wonder if the pike was as tasty as the one I ate in Russia last winter?
As for ML, it seems a bit perverse to have this as one's favourite, seeing as it belongs to a different genre to most of the canon. Nevertheless, it has its admirers, including me. The twists and turns of the plot are excellent and entirely coherent, given the characters and the setting AR so skilfully evokes. And the Latin lessons are ingenious, entirely original as well as being highly amusing. I did study Latin at school, so I can't read ML from the position of someone who never sat through amo, alas, I loved a lass, but I'm sure that most people who've ever been to any kind of school can get the general picture.
posted via 86.139.51.242 user beardbiter.
message 43797 - 10/22/17
From: Paul, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
There still is. Local branches of the English Classical Association have adopted the American concept of a Latin quiz known as the Certamen, and many of the initial questions used came from there.This idea was introduced to our branch by an American teacher of classics, who has now returned to...Maryland!
posted via 81.151.253.76 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43796 - 10/22/17
From: Paul, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
And, so the story goes, in the Granite City, they greet you with "We have a lovely tea... and it's very reasonably priced."
posted via 81.151.253.76 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43795 - 10/22/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
I went to high school in the late 50s in Maryland. I'd read ML by then and it got me interested in Latin. My school actually offered Latin and I tried to sign up for my language requirement, but the courses were all full. So there seems to have been some interest even in the U.S.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43794 - 10/22/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
Ed - Latin in ML :- you need to remember that when AR wrote ML in 1941 Latin was still a standard subject in most schools in the UK, so he assumed his readers would get the jokes. He had thrown away his school Latin Grammar, so had to borrow one from the children of Margaret Renold and of course they had one. I went to school in the 1950s and of course did Latin, and I found the 'learning Latin' passages in ML entertaining and ingenious - it was through Latin that they persuaded Missee Lee to release Captain Flint. I still laugh every time I read Capn Flint stammering "magnissimus . . .Magnanimous?"

AR was entitled to assume his British readers would get the Latin jokes. He was not to know that 70-80 years later Latin would be taught in very few schools. "Those little Latin samples" are part of the period charm of AR, and I would not like to have done without them.
posted via 81.132.174.50 user Peter_H.


message 43793 - 10/22/17
From: Mike Field, subject: For Harry Miller
Harry, scroll down to your post about Lulu dated 23 August to see my reply.

Minor further news on the trip to be posted soon.

[ Image ]

posted via 124.171.217.142 user mikefield.


message 43792 - 10/22/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
Particularly the ones that live in Morningside (or so I was told by a Scottish friend years ago) and they have very RP accents!
posted via 2.29.89.67 user MTD.
message 43791 - 10/21/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Trip to the UK
Thanks Harry. We did indeed have a great trip. But regrettably we didn't catch up with John after all, as he had to appear at a meeting right when we'd planned to join him in Falmouth -- apparently some viaduct or other would have fallen over without his presence.

I too remember his 'Lulu' stories very fondly, along with Kate's lovely illustrations for them. And I daresay that you, like me, hoped the stories and paintings might be published one day. But it seems that life got in the way, as it so often does, and it's not going to be. :(

You and I are not the only ones who remember Lulu fondly, by the way. Check out this link from nine years ago.

posted via 124.171.217.142 user mikefield.
message 43790 - 10/21/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
I believe the Edinburghers are more 'English' than the Glaswegians. :)
posted via 124.171.217.142 user mikefield.
message 43789 - 10/21/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
I entirely agree with you, Mike.
posted via 124.171.217.142 user mikefield.
message 43788 - 10/21/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
Regular listeners to Radio 4's I'm Sorry, I Haven't a Clue will be familiar with the line "You'll have had your tea".
posted via 109.180.8.45 user eclrh.
message 43787 - 10/21/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
With regard to the presence of LATIN in ML, it is nice to find something that Roger is the local expert on, but don't make the reader have to likewise be a LATIN expert in order to "get it". Those little Latin samples became "Multitudinus Crapidus" that I could have done without.

It is not "fun" for our friends to consider having the "heads chopped off." Such is cruel, whereas in WD, their need to use sailing skills in order to SAVE THEIR LIVES in the fog and high winds at night is challenging, letting them prove their abilities.

To me, the highlight of delight in ML was the use of Tapping in Morse code when CF was imprisoned below decks, yet was able to communicate with Nancy on the deck.

A similar highlight (using Morse with serious intent) was in WH, when Nancy saw the light flashing "NP" telling her, the D's were at the "North Pole".

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]

posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43786 - 10/21/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Missee Lee (was 15lb Pike caught in Martham)
Interesting Dan, I think that's the first time I've read anyone saying that ML is their favourite of The Twelve. I have to admit it's my least favourite.

PD I can accept as a 'made up' story from the S & A's enthusiasm for 'Treasure Island' but ML just pushes that notion too far, I think I've only read it three or four times and most recently as an academic exercise to see how and if it connected to the others.
posted via 2.29.89.67 user MTD.


message 43785 - 10/20/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
When I was travelling in Scotland last month, a Glaswegian told me that if you dropped in unexpectedly on someone in Glasgow you'd be asked, "You'll have some tea, won't you?", whereas if it happened in Edinburgh the question would be, "You'll have had your tea, won't you?"

Having received warm welcomes in Glasgow and remote (albeit polite) ones in Edinburgh, I reckon that sounds about right.
posted via 124.171.217.142 user mikefield.


message 43784 - 10/20/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
" She'd grown up with breakfast, lunch, dinner, supper."

Me too (Melbourne in the 40s), although often dinner was also referred to as tea, the words being essentially used synonymously. If there were guests coming for that meal though it was always referred to as the more formal 'dinner'.
posted via 124.171.217.142 user mikefield.


message 43783 - 10/20/17
From: Dan Lind, subject: Re: 15lb Pike caught in Martham
My favorite line is, "Bamboo", from my favorite of The Twelve. ML shows the most imagination.
posted via 70.78.126.205 user captain.
message 43782 - 10/20/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: 15lb Pike caught in Martham
Well at least this guy still has something to live for

And that, other than what I believe is everybody's favourite line as the snow starts to fall in WH, is my favourite thought in AR's books.

posted via 90.255.62.49 user PeterC.


message 43781 - 10/20/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: 15lb Pike caught in Martham
Well at least this guy still has something to live for
posted via 184.151.36.89 user rlcossar.
message 43780 - 10/18/17
From: Woll, subject: 15lb Pike caught in Martham
Only half the Death and Glories'!

posted via 87.113.240.86 user Woll.
message 43779 - 10/15/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?
Of the ones you listed, the closest is Milan, Italy. Only about 800 miles out! Clearly Opera has a number of server farms to which I am randomly attached.
Firefox allocates me to Emsworth, Hampshire, the next town down the road, about 30 minutes walk.
posted via 107.167.112.219 user awhakim.
message 43778 - 10/14/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Country Diary
AR mentioned in the Country Diary in Saturday's Guardian:
posted via 109.180.8.45 user eclrh.
message 43777 - 10/13/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?

Alan,

So of all those I listed, which one is closest to accurate?

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43776 - 10/12/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?
That was better - only one mile out. Back to Opera for this one - see you in New Zealand?
posted via 107.167.112.145 user awhakim.
message 43775 - 10/12/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?
That's a good point, Alex. When I checked my own address this morning, I was said to be in Central China. Since everything in the shops is Made in China now, I assumed this was part of the general trend of life. However, I wasn't aware of doing a rapid world tour during the day, so I have gone on to a Firefox browser to see if it anchors me to home. This morning was Opera.
posted via 86.148.217.209 user awhakim.
message 43774 - 10/12/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?

Alan,

That's a good point, about tracking the IP address. I'm so used to VPNs and TOR muddying the water that I never bother, but I doubt that's much of an issue here on Tarboard. Besides (and I don't mean this to sound critical of you or anyone else who does that bit of sleuthing), I always feel like a stalker...

All that said, it looks like it isn't infallible: plugging in your IP address to five different IP locators has you variously near Albequerque, New Mexico, USA; Milan, Italy; San Mateo, California, USA; Jakarta, Indonesia; or somewhere in the middle of China. So either you're running TOR, you've got an *exhausting* travel schedule, or the internet search engines aren't entirely reliable (shocking, I know).

But yes, I'm in Olympia, WA. The very south end of Puget Sound.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43773 - 10/12/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?
To veer off in a technical direction, if you read any post using the Latest Tarboard Messages log, it has a final line giving the IP address. If you feed that to a lookup program (e.g. whatismyipaddress.com) it will tell you where the Internet thinks the writer's computer is located.
In your case, Alex, it says Washington State. Correct?
posted via 107.167.112.216 user awhakim.
message 43772 - 10/11/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?

Paul,

I have often bumped into that same uncertainty about just where a Tarboardian is located. Yes, a Dutch barge on Puget Sound would certainly demand a properly AR adventure, wouldn't it?

As for pictures, I haven't yet figured out how to use this website's italics yet, let alone post photos, but maybe I'll learn for the occasion.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43771 - 10/11/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Barbara Altounyan
She was on for a third time a few minutes ago. As far as I know, this completes the series.
posted via 109.180.8.45 user eclrh.
message 43770 - 10/11/17
From: Andy, subject: Re: Barbara Altounyan
It was an excellent interview. I was in the car when the name 'Barbara Altounyan' was mentioned, and thought 'surely she's..?' :)

And today, heading off to the morning shop, I put the radio on to hear 'Arthur Ransome...' on a programme relating to the 100th anniversary of the Russian Revolution. It didn't go into much detail, but - probably correctly - referred to him as one of many English in Russia who were 'intoxicated' by the social changes they were witnessing.

Andy
posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.


message 43769 - 10/11/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?
Alex,
One of the problems of being an occasional Tarboard user is that one doesn't always know where in the world live those with whom one is conversing. If you lived in the UK or Europe you could have found a Dutch barge fairly easily. I agree that to get one to Puget Sound would be... challenging - but oh what a book in the AR style you could make of it!
I look forward to seeing pictures when you do find your floating library.

Paul
posted via 31.48.73.116 user Paul_Crisp.


message 43768 - 10/10/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?

I have to agree that Chico looks closer to Pterodactyl, to me, and by size alone seems to fit the bill better --but I know absolutely nothing about motor yachts of the area and of the era. I'm only judging by the two illustrations: the size of Jemmerling's library and the general appearance from "Peggy at the cross-trees."

As for my own boat-cum-library, a Dutch barge would be fantastic, but there aren't too many over here, and none on the market here in Puget Sound. The best candidate I've found so far is a retired BC Forest Service boat.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43767 - 10/10/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Swallows and amazon.com
It is surprisingly difficult to write a passage, let alone a book, in anything approaching Ransome's style. The Times comic effort may have been a brave stab, but it still fell short, in my view. IIRC, some years ago there was a competition in TARS to see if anyone could write a reasonably convincing continuation of the story of "Coots in the North". I don't think anyone managed it.
posted via 81.129.95.180 user Peter_H.
message 43766 - 10/10/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Barbara Altounyan
Barbara Altounyan, daughter of Roger, was on the BBC Radio 4 programme "PM" yesterday (Monday) and again today in connection with her (fairly new) charity The Hospice Biographers.
posted via 109.180.8.45 user eclrh.
message 43765 - 10/10/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?
Chico seems to fit the bill better than Rania; LOA 73ft to Rania's 45ft, and more importantly a 16ft beam rather than R's 10ft 3". She also instinctively "looks" right (I had noticed that before this correspondence). Chico has an interesting history some of which is on her website. On 31st May 1940 she took 1000 men off the beach at Dunkirk and out to the larger ships. Next day she returned home with another 100 men aboard. I like the photo on the Association of Dunkirk Little Ships site showing her twin Lewis gun mounting. Just think of the carnage Mr Jemmerling could have performed with such a mounting on Pterodactly.....
posted via 31.48.73.116 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43764 - 10/08/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: BBC News Website
Good to see a report on the BBC News Website about AR and that it is publicising a future event, but...
shame there's a very basic mistake in it!


posted via 95.149.55.185 user MTD.
message 43763 - 10/08/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?
While a Rampart is a strong possibility for the Pterodactyl, I feel that the cruisers being built in the Firth of Clyde by Silvers (the name which I couldn't remember) may be more likely. This is because they are 'local' to the Hebrides. I agree that Millers were the builders at St. Monans.
posted via 120.148.68.224 user David.
message 43762 - 10/07/17
From: Mark Walker, subject: Re: Re-reading 'the twelve' after a decade-long gap
+2 for Patrick O'Brien's Aubrey/Maturin series. Best ever. For adults.

I like to re-read after a gap of several years, for this does ideed bring forgotten details to light.

Others, like the Aubrey/Maturin 'dad jokes' one does not forget. "In the Navy one must always take the lesser of two weevils"; and the Bosun's cat, "the only name for which can be Scourge".

As memorable at least as "Better drowned than Duffers" but with the added benefit of being both clever AND funny!
posted via 121.217.27.42 user Buzzook.


message 43761 - 10/07/17
From: Mark Walker, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?
Local Kiwi member, Garry Wood, speculated in 'Furthest South' May 2014 that 'Pterodactyl' might have been a Rampart 45 built by George Desty's Southampton-based Rampart Boat Building Works.
He cites an exteant example, 'Rania', one of the Dunkirk Little Ships, that looks a lot like the sketch of Pterodactyl. Google it.
The St Monans boatbuilder may have been JW Millers?
posted via 121.217.27.42 user Buzzook.
message 43760 - 10/07/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?
You are right on the money there, Adam. There was a boatbuilder in the Firth of Clyde (in Rothesay, I think) who built large numbers of this kind of small ship to excellent quality, and many of them are still around and treasured. My memory fails to bring up the name of the company. The principal designer was one John Bain. Similarly, I have forgotten the name of the builder in St, Monans, Fife, but I do remember that they were mostly famous for their double-ended fishing trawlers. The only drawback was that they were iron-fastened, which was fine for the expected life of 20-odd years. However, some of them are now reaching their century, and are having to be refastened. Nothing wrong witht the larch from which they were built, though.
posted via 120.148.68.224 user David.
message 43759 - 10/06/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?
I envisage something like this which dates from 1932 and still operates off the west of Scotland.

[ Image ]

posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43758 - 10/06/17
From: Paul, subject: Re: Who was Pterodactyl?
A very brief glance through the 1950 edition of Lloyd's register of Yachts shows Peter Duck, Racundra and Selina King, but no Nancy Blackett (nor a Pterodactyl!). It obviously calls for further research.

Re a boat to accommodate a library, have you thought of one of the Dutch barge conversions? I visited one a couple of years back which was crammed with books! There are several on the Thames near Old Windsor and Runnymede, and occasionally one comes on the market. There are also some craft that appear on e-bay. Good luck.
posted via 86.156.48.17 user Paul_Crisp.


message 43757 - 10/06/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: Swallows and amazon.com
It made me smile when the rest of the paper seemed filled with fairly depressing news about a massacre and a party conference.
posted via 86.156.48.17 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43756 - 10/05/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Swallows and amazon.com
I'd forgotten about that! Thanks Allan.

I'm still with Peter on this topic, as he says "There have been much wittier pastiches of Ransome..." and Victoria Wood is certainly one of them!
posted via 2.29.97.249 user MTD.


message 43755 - 10/05/17
From: Allan_Lang, subject: Re: Swallows and amazon.com
Titty says that there will be a YouTube video that explains it

There is indeed

posted via 101.178.163.19 user Allan_Lang.
message 43754 - 10/05/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Who was Pterodactyl?
I'm in the middle of finding a boat to live aboard when I sell my house next spring: a powerboat, to serve as tender to my 19' sloop and as home for me, including my library.

In that context, it's proving to be quite a search to find a boat adequate for even the 80 linear feet of my pared-down library.

That got me to thinking about the notorious Pterodactyl, and AR's illustration titled, "In the cabin of the Pterodactyl," and how big the Pterodactyl must have been to provide the space in which that scene takes place. Especially since that appears to be an athwartships cabin, and boats of that era were typically far narrower than boats of today. She must have been quite a good sized yacht! Does anyone know if AR modeled Pterodactyl on a specific vessel, or --if that information isn't available-- have any access to contemporary yacht registers that might offer a likely candidate? All speculation is welcome.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43753 - 10/04/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Swallows and amazon.com
Surely we can take comfort from the thought that when the leader writer wanted to refer to a children's adventure classic that his readers would relate to, he chose SA.

posted via 88.110.90.188 user Mike_Jones.
message 43752 - 10/03/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Swallows and amazon.com
A different view - I found the Times spoof leaden and humourless. E.g. John has never pitched a tent before, so Titty says that there will be a YouTube video that explains it. Oh hilarious! There have been much wittier pastiches of Ransome in recent years, some on Tarboard.
posted via 81.129.95.180 user Peter_H.
message 43751 - 10/03/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Swallows and amazon.com
This is the title of the Third Leader in yesterday's Times in response to the Springwatch team wanting "outdoorsy tales" for today's children. Some beautiful lines such as "I ordered this tent last night from Amazon," said Able Seaman Titty who was thinking of changing her name to Kitty.... Meanwhile John was getting jittery, "Thing is, I've never pitched a tent before."...."Don't worry," said Titty, "there'll be a YouTube video that explains how to do it."

If you haven't read it try to get a copy or go on line; it's worth the effort.
posted via 86.151.254.141 user Paul_Crisp.


message 43750 - 10/01/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: 2016 S&A film offer
As mentioned before, I'm going to view it (if I ever can) as another story made up by our S&A characters sitting around the campfire. I'm sure their imaginations could have created this just like they came up with Peter Duck or Missee Lee.
posted via 184.151.36.14 user rlcossar.
message 43749 - 10/01/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: 2016 S&A film offer
You have my sympathy, Ed. Seeing it in the cinema with an excited grandson, I could see how it worked for him and enjoyed it as an action film. Viewing it at home on DVD, my reactions were like yours: a travesty. And poor Mrs Blackett!
posted via 88.110.64.51 user Mike_Jones.
message 43748 - 10/01/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: 2016 S&A film offer
You have my sympathy, Ed. Seeing it in the cinema with an excited grandson, I could see how it worked for him and enjoyed it as an action film. Viewing it at home on DVD, my reactions were like yours: a travesty. And poor Mrs Blackett!
posted via 88.110.64.51 user Mike_Jones.
message 43747 - 10/01/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: 2016 S&A film offer
Saw AMAZON.COM (USA) offering the new SWALLOWS AND AMAZONS, so I ordered it. I watched it all the way through, but do not think I want to make that mistake again.

For BBC movies, being an American, I need English Subtitles. The Potter series had that, and it was a big help to SEE what those kids were saying. Adults come through ok for the most part, but young people just don't project the words so I can get them. Lord of the Rings had English Subtitles that were a big help there also. But this S/A had FRENCH, no English subtitles. The old two seemed to talk ok, but the younger two had a problem with me hearing their words.

As for the PLOT, it had so very little to do with what I read as a child and had come to LOVE. The older two are TOO OLD. Not much difference apparent between the ages of Susan and her Mother. So much was added that just was not in the book, and even those moments similar to the book were so distorted from what I expected.

Only two visited the Charcoal Burners, and that was to get fire. Like the book, Mother had to remind them to take the matches, which (not in the book) they lost overboard with their food. John throwing a rock at the houseboat, and getting yelled at by its occupant. In the "war" don't think they looked anywhere but in the Beckfoot boathouse. No digging on Cormorant Island to find the stolen chest. And that "secret harbour" is a pitiful jury rigged resulting from sticking a few rocks upright off some shore. No real HARBOUR with protection from winds. Nothing like the Peel Island southern end which has come to be believed as the Real Secret Harbour. Anything else is just not right. The usage of that title is a gross misleading heading. A brief scene where someone is studying MORSE code, a tool that never came up again, unused, and not in the book. Where did THAT come from? Why put that in?

It was very disappointing. To appease my anger, I dug out my 1974 VCR tape and thoroughly enjoyed that version where my only serious complaint was NO STORM to blow down the tents. Those kids were of realistic ages. The Amazons looked reasonable, not made up Halloween monsters.

This new DVD? Back into the box, to the back of the top shelf, where hopefully it will be forgotten. So little of the real story is there, and that is what I was looking for.

John holding a revolver to some guy's face - Not the JOHN that I grew up with as my childhood playmate, and a good friend for the rest of my life.

Shy can't that story be properly put into a movie without totally screwing it up?

Waste of good money.

Thanks for letting me VENT...

Ed Kiser, Kentucky USA
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43746 - 09/25/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
Having been connected with various schools I found that pupils brought in "dinner Money" (these days paid on-line!), looked forward to "lunch time", or brought "packed lunches". They accepted both terms, but on outings the invariable question - usually on arrival - was "When is it lunch time?"



posted via 81.151.141.31 user Paul_Crisp.


message 43745 - 09/24/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
As usual I'm coming late to this discussion.
I was brought up in the 60s in the west of England and we always had breakfast, dinner, tea and (sometimes) supper.
Dinner referred to the main cooked meal of the day. For instance we always spoke of "school dinners" and never "school lunches".
When we came home it was to "tea", a meal of bread and butter, jam and cake. On occasions it might become high tea with a hot dish, perhaps smoked haddock
For us supper was only a hot drink, often cocoa, and a biscuit.
posted via 2.102.116.46 user MartinH.
message 43744 - 09/22/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: The next generation
Hmm, where did the link go. Let's try again!

www.sailransome.org

posted via 81.156.115.105 user Magnus.
message 43743 - 09/21/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: The next generation
MarkK and Andy, it sounds like you might want to sail 'Swallow' whilst you are visiting the Lake District in 2018! See link below.

I was very careful for many years, not forcing my kids into a boat or a tent. I was too paranoid they would hate it if I insisted. So I just took it easy. I think one has come round to my way of thinking, but not the other...
posted via 81.156.115.105 user Magnus.


message 43742 - 09/20/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
Peter... I am GLAD that others using e-books can now have the pleasure I have enjoyed these many years by having access to Machine-Readable TXT files of the Ransome Twelve. My collection has been the source of many a search. And as for those requests from Tarboard to look up "[high tea]" or whatever, I was glad to do so, and found the results very educational for myself as well.

My TXT files were created well before E-books became all that available. They were the result of determination and the pleasure of re-living my childhood adventures with my childhood friends. Typing them in, I got to see EVERY punctuation mark, every BRITISH spelling that my American spell checker would protest about, and get to see EVERY passage, some of which I felt were somehow previously skimmed over, and delightfully finally to add them to my reading experiences, yet amazed to find that I had not remembered ever seeing that piece before. It was a labour of love (my American spell checker just threw up on "labour") that continues to bring to bring me great pleasure and enhances that wonderful Ransome experience.

I have learned much from his Twelve, and am grateful he put it all together. And I am grateful to my Tarboard "friends" that have enhanced those experiences for me. That gratitude is also to Tony Richards for his sharing his camera and its photo collection showing the land that Ransome wrote about, giving me the REAL view of the place my childhood friends took me to, to share with them the beauties of those locations otherwise so foreign to me. That photo collection is now over 24 THOUSAND pictures that have provided me with hours of slide shows to vicariously return me to that land of my childhood imagination.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]


posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43741 - 09/20/17
From: MarkD, subject: Re: The next generation
Excellent advice - my cherry-on-top modification will be to add an iPad liberally loaded with Peppa Pig and her ilk.

posted via 185.125.226.2 user MarkD.
message 43740 - 09/20/17
From: MarkD, subject: Re: The next generation
Thank you...really hope it works for you all. If it does, will you post the results on here?
posted via 185.125.226.2 user MarkD.
message 43739 - 09/20/17
From: MarkD, subject: Re: The next generation
Made me laugh, thank you!

Yes, the idea has to be to fire the little ones' imaginations...I don't think it really matters where and how we manage it, or how "authentic" the experience is...just as long as it's real enough in their heads.

posted via 185.125.226.2 user MarkD.


message 43738 - 09/20/17
From: MarkD, subject: Re: The next generation
I think you've nailed our fears here. Everywhere I go in the UK seems to be an overcrowded and oversanitised space where the main concern is to sell you a hugely overpriced and disappointing sandwich in plastic wrap, washed down with a lukewarm disposable cup of dishwater with a tacky souvenir to take home with your fudge. No camping, no fires, please keep off the grass.

Nevertheless, we will visit the Lakes in the coming weeks and see if there's a way of making it work in this country. In parallel my wife and I agreed last night to rent a lakeside cabin with boat for a couple of weeks in Sweden next summer. Just working out the logistics of getting everyone there now. If the holiday works as a proxy for a "proper" lakeside S&A break I'll post my findings up on here. The idea is to find somewhere remote enough that the kids can eventually camp nearby the cabin without annoying anyone, with a lake big enough to sail on.
posted via 185.125.226.2 user MarkD.


message 43737 - 09/20/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: The next generation
Well Mark, an interesting question.

My thoughts (for what they are worth as a non-parent, never sailed, never camped but lifelong AR reader) is I agree with your wife, and not just because one of semi-obsessive interests other than AR is most things Scandinavian!

From what I have seen the Norway and Sweden options will give you and your children a more 'real' experience of the S&A world. Why?

As regular readers here know I live in the area of Secret Water, which though not mentioned in the book includes the Naze. Recently the local council in conjunction with the Essex Wildlife Trust have built a 'visitor's centre' so turning a natural headland in to a glorified theme park. It's supposed to be an educational centre for the school parties that visit mainly for fossil hunting on the beaches, but of course it is no more than a cafe and gift shop.

I have not visited the Lake District since childhood, but get the impression from TV documentaries that the natural landscape is more and more viewed as a place where famous writers spent there time and were inspired - Wordsworth, Potter etc and thanks to the recent film AR is not far behind. So there are lots of ‘helpful’ places to visit and signs everywhere to satisfy visitors.

When AR wrote the SA series he often had digs at the encroachment of visitors, and these days (as at the Naze) they are being accommodated at the expense of what made the landscape inspiring in the first place. I do wonder what he would make of the area now?
posted via 95.145.229.152 user MTD.


message 43736 - 09/19/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: The next generation

Three cheers for you, MarkD! I have no kids, want no kids (though haven't minded occasionally filling the role of Captain Flint), and I'm in the US anyway, so I doubt I have any worthwhile advice for you, but I'm pleased to read what you're trying for.

FWIW, I had S&A read aloud to me at age five, my first summer on a small island off the coast of Maine, where I would eventually spend the rest of my summers until I was 26. I then devoured the rest of the series on my own (I was a precocious bookworm), was taught to sail in a small boat (though I didn't solo until I was 10), and set out on a career of piracy and exploration. That included arming myself with a wooden cutlass (a toilet float cut in half makes an excellent guard) and burying sea-glass and beach-combed treasure every year in big tea tins --note: pacing off compass bearings is brilliant, but the length of a child's pace changes dramatically from one year to the next, so don't bury anything you'd be heartbroken not to recover. Post SW, it also involved a couple years of running compass bearings around the entire island --surprisingly, NOAA's charts are actually pretty accurate. My father still feels the best gift he ever got me was a 9' rowboat, when I was 9. I sailed from the English Channel to the China Seas in that dinghy, all without crossing outside the two-fathom line around the Island.

When I went to live with my mother, in the mountains of California, I promptly got in trouble when I chipped big holes in one of her favorite landscape boulders while prospecting for gold. I also got a lesson in safe bouldering after an adventure searching for cragfast sheep --you never knew; there might have been one up there!-- almost went badly. (As an adult, I eventually went on to instruct technical rock climbing and mountaineering.)

My point is that once the S&A match was lit, with the right encouragement and with the right landscape it was a self-sustaining combustion, and ignited my imagination in whatever environment I found myself. Make your kids the offer to enjoy it, and then enjoy it with them, and I expect things will go very well.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43735 - 09/19/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Class and language in the books

I'm not sure if this is interesting, but it's there on Wiki:

"As late as 1945, Emily Post wrote in the magazine Etiquette that luncheon is "generally given by and for women, but it is not unusual, especially in summer places or in town on Saturday or Sunday, to include an equal number of men" – hence the mildly disparaging phrase, "the ladies who lunch". Lunch was a ladies' light meal; when the Prince of Wales stopped to eat a dainty luncheon with lady friends, he was laughed at for this effeminacy."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunch

Which may be why the S&A characters intuit that "lunch" is a meal taken with natives.

That webpage has all sorts of interesting and potentially applicable "social etymology" of meals.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43734 - 09/19/17
From: Andy, subject: Re: The next generation
I'm 54, and demolished The Twelve from an early age, re-reading them many times during my childhood. The books, however, never clicked with my brother or sister: I'm not sure why.

I was lucky enough to grow up not far from the Lakes and - luckier still - learned to sail while at school. Subsequently I did a pile of dinghy sailing during my twenties and thirties, but had to stop and sell up (I just had no time) when my two boys were very young: they, as a result, have had no experience in small boats.

Without any pressure I'd hoped, perhaps through some form of psycho-osmosis :) that they'd pick up the Ransomes at a young age, but they didn't, and I didn't want to push it. They've camped (and loved it), they've heard my sailing yarns often enough, and they're clearly aware of my groaning shelves of regularly-read Ransome-related literature - so I have a plan: my last chance to quietly enthuse them!

Next year is Dad-Gets-The-Wayfarer-Year, and following some Scottish Loch sailing to weed out any dufferishness (we live in the Central Belt) my plan is for a week's camping and sailing in the Lakes. I'm certain they'll amuse me, the old 'un, with traipsing around the Ransome landscape and maybe - just maybe - get bitten by the outdoors and what it has to offer. My secret weapon in this is my stepdaughter's son, 'then aged seven'. He and I have talked long and hard about things, and we've both decided a future of piracy and skullduggery on the high seas is really all we want out of life. Now, if there's a chance my boys as young adults can see the world through their nephew's eyes (and I think it's a good chance, stuck in a couple of tents together) all is not lost!

Mark, with regards to your post, the only practical advice I can give is this: I took my eldest son camping when he was just twelve weeks old. In Belgium. We survived. A few years later, camping on one of the coldest, wettest nights I've ever witnessed, and concerned that the kids (then about eight and four) would a/ hate it, or b/ drown in the tent, both boys said they loved every minute and 'when can we come again?'

posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.


message 43733 - 09/19/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: The next generation
Rule 1 for this journey, unless your children are very good travellers: keep as far as possible to Motorways and Roman Roads. My young son seemed to be sick at every bend on traditional roads.
Rule 2 is to keep them occupied. Word games like I Spy, and singing. You could try teaching them Shanties, but any songs you know. Best of all, ones that can be extended indefinitely like "Old Macdonald had a farm". And in your case, Norwegian folk songs.
Don't even think of having a quiet time in the front with the children in the back.
posted via 107.167.112.145 user awhakim.
message 43732 - 09/19/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
A few examples from my own experience.
I visited my nephew in Cumbria a couple of weeks ago (in the Eden Valley, real AR country) and we were given Tea: Roast Lamb and all the trimmings, with wine. And this is very usual in the North - and probably Scotland. (Followers of I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue on the BBC will know that the Scottish word-charades always start with "You'll have had your tea.")
Exactly the same rules in Australia in my experience. Tea is a major meal, the last of the day, except possibly a light snack last thing. It can even have guests like a dinner party. Though at AusTARS meetings they provide magnificent Teas - sandwiches and cake, probably enough to live on for the rest of the day.
Growing up in Wales in the 1940s, Tea and High Tea were two distinct meals. Tea was Bread and butter (more likely margarine), jam and cake if we were lucky, and of course tea. High Tea had all that plus something solid like a poached egg to make it into a full meal. At home, Lunch was at midday, and Dinner was an evening meal for grown-ups.
When I was called up into the Army, we were firmly told that Dinner was at midday, Tea was late afternoon after work, and I assume evening Dinner only happened in the Officers' Mess.
On a related theme, not in the S&A books, I have found that if I am asked "Would you like a drink?", in the South it's something like a G&T, but in the North it's a cup of tea. Takes a little getting used to.
posted via 107.167.112.145 user awhakim.
message 43731 - 09/19/17
From: MarkD, subject: The next generation
I’m now about to hit 40, and have very small children. My interests are largely outdoors – camping, foraging, cooking, shooting, fishing, sailing (plus rugby and cricket!). I was chatting to my younger brother earlier this year about why we turned out the way we did, and got onto the subject of AR’s books. It really hit me then that the AR books I’d loved as a child had had a very profound effect on my life. I’d been trying to emulate much of what I’d read about, not just for myself but as a preparation to creating the same experience for my own future children, because it seemed like the “right” thing to do.

Now that my eldest is three it suddenly occurred to me that whatever I was subconsciously preparing for has arrived, and I now just need to make it happen for them! I’ve re-read the 12 and found the old magic still there, and now I’m about to buy a small boat, and try to persuade my dad to trade down his own largely unused modern yacht for something smaller and hopefully more traditional.

We’ve joined TARS and are now planning our first recce up to the Lakes to see what can be achieved. My wife is Norwegian and grew up camping and holidaying in basic family log cabins on a private island and in the mountains, and the usual arguments on family sailing holidays. She thinks that we’re better off hiring waterside summer cabins complete with boats in Sweden or just wild camping in Norway (and is dead set on just hiring boats in the UK instead of owning).

Has anyone tried this journey with kids in the UK? Any advice on what worked for you, or tips of things to do while the kids are still very small? I appreciate it’s a broad topic, but it’s a wonderful journey and I can’t wait to take my kids on it...and then grit my teeth, cross my fingers and turn my back and let them go and do it on their own…!


posted via 185.125.226.2 user MarkD.


message 43730 - 09/19/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
That's brilliant work, Magnus and Adam, using e-books, but I can't help feeling slightly sad that the search 'monopoly' possessed for many years by Ed Kiser is no more. Very-long-time Tarboard users may recall, many years ago, those oft-used and immortal words:

"Perhaps, Ed, you could do a search for '[high tea]' and prove I am right?"*

*copyright 'Arthur Random' 2003.

posted via 81.129.127.205 user Peter_H.


message 43729 - 09/19/17
From: MarkD, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
Great bit of work! Looks like he was quite consistent, lunch for native midday meals and dinner for others. It's a very strange distinction to make though...any thoughts on why?

posted via 185.125.226.2 user MarkD.
message 43728 - 09/19/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
I checked and could only find one instance of a lunch being mentioned during an adventure. In Coot Club, when Tom Dudgeon wants to delay lunch until they are underway after passing under a bridge.
Two others are aboard the Goblin in We Didn't Mean to Go to Sea, when they are cleaning up and when Daddy invited Mother and Bridget to luncheon after their return. So adults involved in all three cases.

All the others are definitely native meals or referring to native meals.

SA
And we wanted to be allies at once, if only we hadn't promised to be home for lunch.

If we'd only known we'd have given you broadside for broadside till one of us sank, even if it had made us late for lunch.

SD
Mother's taking the great-aunt out to lunch, so we needn't be in till tea.

Those two pirates were twenty minutes late for lunch yesterday.

They won't be back till lunch-time. (GA & Mrs Blackett)

"We've got to be back to lunch," said Peggy.

But Captain Flint kept reminding them that they had to be back for
lunch, and they were only looking round as quick as they could before racing down again to the Amazon and setting sail for home.

PP
Pull down the swinging bit, and push the slide across till lunch-time next day.

I'll just see what Cook wants. And you'd better have lunch before going.

How are you getting on, Dick? What about the pigeon-bell? Lunch in another half-hour.

Dick, his work done, went into lunch with a very happy smile.

After a lunch that was not dry bread after all, during which Mrs.
Blackett told them just what shops to go to and what to get

He met Mrs. Blackett in the hall. "Hullo, Dick," she said. "You're just in time for lunch.

CC
She had taken them to lunch at an inn where everybody was talking about boats at the top of his voice.

The twins were in at lunch-time, and they seemed to think he (Baby) was theirs.

Tom would not wait for lunch. (Aboard the Teasel)

BS
"We've got to have lunch with the Admiral if we're not going anywhere."

Towards one o'clock they went home to Mrs. Barrable's for lunch and in the afternoon Dick and Dorothea borrowed the bloodhound and came back to Scotland Yard to wait for the return of the detectives.

"I'll telephone to Mr. Farland. You come home for lunch, Tom, and I'll tell you then if you can see him or not.

"We'd better begin lunch," said his mother and began to mix a salad.

Dick had bought a bottle red ink on the way back after lunch, meaning to mark with a cross the place where the shackles were found as soon as the photographs had dried.

The others were watching the door and wondering why Tom was so long over his lunch.

WD
Five hours later John, Susan and Jim Brading were resting in the cockpit of the Goblin after a hard morning's work and a luncheon of bread and cheese and ginger beer.

"We've a grand spread nearly ready in the cabin, and the owner and the skipper and the crew and the passengers want you and Bridget to honour them by lunching aboard.

PM
I've told her it would be as well if she made a practice of resting after luncheon.

They were very early, and for fear luncheon might not have begun at Beckfoot, they worked their way round through the wood till they came down on the road well beyond the house, crossed it after careful scouting, and were presently looking down from the ridge on Beckfoot.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43727 - 09/19/17
From: MarkD, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
That's a very useful bit of work Magnus.

I'd like to put "lunch" in the search engine to see how often it is used and by whom, and referring to a native or explorer meal. It would be even more instructive to do this with Ransome works not from the 12, to observe his own usage.

It might sound like I'm a bit obsessive on this point, but it is probably the one thing that jars every time I read the books and I'm curious whether it was deliberate or just unconscious usage by the author. As Andy noted, the usage of “dinner” for the midday meal would probably have been commonplace for Cumbria and Leeds, and the North generally but not for the South or in RP which I'd guess (possibly erroneously) most of the children would have tended towards.
posted via 185.125.226.2 user MarkD.


message 43726 - 09/18/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
The power of the ebook search facility has revealed to me...

SECRET WATER - CHAPTER I

And then, when they had come back for high tea at Miss Powell’s they learnt that something had happened that had made Daddy at least feel quite different. Tea was over before he came in smiling to himself.

THE BIG SIX - CHAPTER XX

Mrs. Barrable gave them a high tea so that the Death and Glories had no need to worry about supper. They told her some of what they were doing but not all, and she did not ask questions.

THE BIG SIX - CHAPTER XXII

They made a leisurely round of the busier parts of the village and then, sure that everybody would know that they had left the Death and Glory, went slowly back to the Doctor’s house where they found high tea nearly ready for them.

posted via 81.156.115.105 user Magnus.


message 43725 - 09/18/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
Equally not necessarily relevant to the books:

I grew up in suburban Washington D.C., my parents were from the midwest. We had breakfast, lunch, and supper. On Sundays we had breakfast, dinner, and supper of some sort. No tea or any sort of fourth meal (and no second breakfasts either).
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43724 - 09/18/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: 2016 S&A film offer
With another perspective, the less money it is, the more chance of people seeing it.

I still have not had a chance to watch the 2016 version here in Canada

posted via 184.151.36.234 user rlcossar.


message 43723 - 09/18/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Class and language in the books

I don't know if this is relevant to the situation in the books, but where I grew up --Maine and Massachusetts, so very much New England-- "dinner" was the biggest meal of the day, whenever it was held. If it was held at midday, the subsequent lighter meal in the evening would be "supper". If dinner was held at the end of the day, the preceeding, lighter midday meal would be "lunch".

Overhearing a conversation with a colleague who was himself from Texas, and of a similar age as me, this distinction was also the case there --much to the bemusement of the (much younger) student with which he was conversing.

Sadly, while I grew up drinking tea throughout the day, we never had "tea" as a meal. I always envied the S&A characters that cultural advantage.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43722 - 09/18/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
Hilaire Belloc confuses the matter further with the dying words of Henry King:

"Oh my friends, be warned by me,
That breakfast, dinner, lunch and tea
Are all the human frame requires...."
posted via 92.18.212.120 user Mike_Jones.


message 43721 - 09/18/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
I agree - the map is very interesting, though possibly a little too generalised. Here are some observations noted during this year. Staying in Wester Ross in the last couple of weeks I heard High Tea used, with the implication that dinner was only for the tourists. The same when staying with some relatives of my wife near Newcastle. Supper is used in London and certainly in the Home Counties for a late meal, as in supper after the theatre. It's dinner in mid-Devonshire (not the tourist part); at least, that's my experience!
posted via 86.153.140.190 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43720 - 09/18/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
I am fairly sure that the expression "high tea" does not occur in the books - I doubt if Susan would know what it was.

I agree- I can't remember "High tea" appearing anywhere in the books. But I think Susan would have known what it was. My upbringing was strictly middle class, and immediately after the war, so in the '40s, I knew what "high tea" was, although in my family, we had "tea" and "supper".
posted via 90.252.96.169 user PeterC.


message 43719 - 09/18/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
The map is interesting. However, the description "tea" is more complex than that. I come from a Lancashire family and I recall that there was a big difference between "tea" and "high tea". "Tea" means just that - a cup of tea at about 4.00 pm with maybe a cake or scone. "High tea" was taken at about 6.00 pm and consisted of something cooked - e.g. sausages or kippers, with bread and butter. Once again, tea, i.e. the drink, was served. I am fairly sure that the expression "high tea" does not occur in the books - I doubt if Susan would know what it was. The explorers' evening meal was probably a cross between high tea and supper, and it was a moveable feast anyway (literally).
posted via 81.129.127.205 user Peter_H.
message 43718 - 09/18/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
People have tried to track this sort of North/South language divide before. Here's one example, although it comes from modern usage, not the 1930s...


posted via 81.156.115.105 user Magnus.


message 43717 - 09/17/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: 2016 S&A film offer
It wasn't long after its release on DVD etc that copies appeared on e-bay!
posted via 95.150.76.26 user MTD.
message 43716 - 09/16/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: 2016 S&A film offer
And, sadly, on Wednesday I saw the 1974 film on offer for a penny less!

posted via 86.153.139.247 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43715 - 09/16/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: 2016 S&A film offer
In my branch of Sainsbury's this morning, the 2016 S&A film DVD was on offer for £3.00. They say that everything finds its correct price level in the end.
posted via 81.129.127.205 user Peter_H.
message 43714 - 09/15/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
I think they use both terms lunch and dinner for a midday meal. However, when they are referring to a "native" indoor meal it tends to be lunch and when it is an outdoor camping or sailing meal, it is dinner.

Not sure about tea as there are too many references to the beverage rather than the meal.

As for referring to Mrs Braithwaite as Cook, I think that this is just referring to her by her job rather than her name, just as Nurse is never named, though I am not sure she was ever spoken to as "Nurse" either. Similarly, the doctor in the North is always referred to as just "the doctor", again I don't think his name is ever mentioned but I can see it being perfectly normal to say Hallo, Doctor" to him without it being impolite.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43713 - 09/15/17
From: Andy, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
Breakfast, dinner, tea, supper - for me, born in Cumbria in the 60s. My mum, from darn sarth, took a few years to get used to this order. She'd grown up with breakfast, lunch, dinner, supper.

Andy

posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.


message 43712 - 09/15/17
From: Andy, subject: Re: Class and language in the books
Breakfast, dinner, tea, supper - for me, born in Cumbria in the 60s. My mum, from darn sarth, took a few years to get used to this order. She'd grown up with breakfast, lunch, dinner, supper.

Andy

posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.


message 43711 - 09/15/17
From: MarkD, subject: Class and language in the books
Hi, not sure if this has been covered before, but I was re-reading the books after joining tars and one thing that struck me was some of the language used by the children - "dinner" instead of "lunch", "tea" instead of "dinner", "Cook" instead of "Mrs Braithwaite" for example. All of these aren't terms I'd expect people of that social class from the South of England to use these days. Was it different back then, or does it e.g. just reflect Ransome's own usage (i.e. Northern usage for meal names)?

posted via 185.125.226.21 user MarkD.
message 43710 - 09/13/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
It was motor traffic breaking up the surface of the old water-bound roads that led to the authorities tarring them all.

That sort of thing still goes on, even with a loose AR connection.
In Siberia one winter, around the end of the Soviet Union, we found that in a steelworks town they would dump hot slag from the steelworks on the icy roads in town, in huge explosions of steam, which would melt and re-freeze to create a kind of abrasive ice-bound surface which people could drive on as though it was a dry road.
In the spring it would melt, and the acidic slag would drain into the river and kill all the fish.
Nobody cared, except the local fishermen, and nobody cared much about them. Anyway they had lakes to fish in, which we were told were full of PCBs.
I don't suppose that AR would have come across these apparently eternal Russian attitudes when he was there. Far too much happening...
posted via 90.252.96.169 user PeterC.


message 43709 - 09/12/17
From: andy clayton, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
It was motor traffic breaking up the surface of the old water-bound roads that led to the authorities tarring them all. The oil based tar held the surface intact against the suction effect of the swiftly moving rubber tyres. Carts with iron tyres hadn't damaged the roads in that way.

posted via 147.147.232.39 user cousin_jack.
message 43708 - 09/11/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
Not quite that bad! It was traffic in his fishing areas of the North-West. He was very much against Tarmac, which drained off into the rivers and poisoned the fish. You will remember in PP that cars left a trail of dust on the road behind them.
posted via 107.167.112.144 user awhakim.
message 43707 - 09/11/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
Of course! The campcraft illustrates it perfectly. Mate Susan never asks for firelighters in book 1 (they only need matches) and in WH everyone scorns the Ds for needing newspaper.

So the fire-lighting must have been taught for a while before S&A.
posted via 81.156.115.105 user Magnus.


message 43706 - 09/10/17
From: Dazvid Bamford, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
Golly, Alan, if The Man objected to London's treaffic in the Twenties, what would he make of it now? Especially, I believe, (not having tried it myself) the M25.
posted via 120.148.68.224 user David.
message 43705 - 09/10/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
Mr Toad's caravan was what was known at the time as a Gypsy Caravan, a very romantic item. Certainly some years ago, one could hire one to tour around Ireland; I don't know if that's still possible. Of course, you have to handle the horse too. Almost nothing in common with the basic motor-car-hauled caravan we are discussing.
And Owen, if you look in your copy of Fair Cops and Glowworms you'll find AR objecting quite fiercely to motor traffic in the 1920s.
posted via 107.167.113.35 user awhakim.
message 43704 - 09/10/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: Treasure Island
Well, there's "Barbecued Billygoats!" That seems to crop up from time to time.

The only two other places I could think of, in SD and SW, didn't refer to barbecues though ("Great Aunt Steak", and the Human Sacrifice). Given Mother's Australian background, "Corroboree" seems to have been the term in favour for the event.
posted via 73.173.62.89 user Jon.


message 43703 - 09/09/17
From: Dan Lind, subject: Treasure Island
We know that AR read TI, and believe PD was influenced by it. In
TI, Long John Silver was called Barbeque by his shipmates.

Did AR include any reference to BBQs in The Twelve? There is, of course, much mention of campfires and cooking, but BBQs?

Just wondered. (I haven't The Twelve at hand,)


posted via 70.78.126.205 user captain.


message 43702 - 09/09/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
In the story, "WIND IN THE WILLOWS", Mr.Toad enjoyed (for a while) his horse drawn CARAVAN, until he saw a motor car. His interests had to move up with the new technology.

Wonder when the idea of putting an enclosure on a wagon got started...

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43701 - 09/08/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
That's a really good question.

As I see it, unless they had done a fair bit of camping in previous holidays, with a considerable share of the campsite "chores" carried by the children so that they had been observed being competant at campcraft, I would expect the idea of camping on the island would never even have been considered. Mother would have squashed it pretty quickly, perhaps offering them a camp at Darien as an alternative --sort of like the Beckfoot camp in PP.

I expect Mike's right with the "best knife ever" enthusiasm --which is also a pretty good quirk for AR to have picked up on and inserted into the story.
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43700 - 09/07/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
I have seen the occasional photo of pre-war caravans here in Australia, but they looked, and probably were, very home-made. Using an axle and 28-inch artillery wheels sourced from a derelict car, they were anything but elegant or stylish. I doubt that we had any commercial production of caravans until the 1950s. My parents hired a 'Carapark' van in 1957 for a holiday. It was very basic, a rectangular box with rounded edges and corners, clad in aluminium. That was an early commercially-built van.
posted via 120.148.68.224 user David.
message 43699 - 09/07/17
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
Alan is quite correct. Motor caravanning started in the 1920’s and was starting to burgeon in the 1930’s. Of course, horse drawn gypsy type caravans has been about many years before.
The attached mockumentary film clip shows what was possible in 1932, about the time SD was written.

I think caravan/camping sites in the Lake District were an anathema to AR.

posted via 51.6.241.95 user OwenRoberts.
message 43698 - 09/07/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
Caravanning must have existed in the Thirties, though they were much more basic than modern ones. Think the kind of caravan that is now used at shows to accommodate the announcer. (Not sure this is true in Australia, David.)
I am sure of this, since I was given a Dinky Toy caravan before the war. It would never have gone into production unless caravans were fairly well-known.
posted via 107.167.113.134 user awhakim.
message 43697 - 09/05/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
Mary Walker was bought up on a sheep station (SA18) and had a nanny (SD2). The owner of a sheep station would be part of the "squattocracy".

It recalls Neville Shute’s 1955 novel “Requiem for a Wren” in which the Wren thinks that it will be a comedown to marry an Australian “farmer”, thinking of farmers as "peasants". The Australian (who is killed in the war) went to a private grammar school and Oxford University, and comes from a large sheep station (though I can’t recall if he was the heir to the sheep empire).

posted via 202.154.144.56 user hugo.
message 43696 - 09/05/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
Caravanning had to wait until well after the end of the WW II, when more people could afford cars. Like telephones, personal cars were quite scarce in Britain in the Thirties. There is no suggestion in the books that the Walkers owned a car, although if they could afford a nanny they would be able to afford a car. But moving two adults, five children and a nanny would require a small bus!
David
posted via 120.148.68.224 user David.
message 43695 - 09/05/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
I suppose we are meant to assume they have done 'outdoorsy' things in all their previous school holidays (including sailing at Falmouth) so they have stayed in a few wild spots before, maybe in borrowed tents?

Good point! Susan must have learnt how to build fires and fireplaces somewhere. Still, that might have been on family day trips or picnics, with no real camping involved. Was caravanning common in that time? My family did tent-camp on the Chester River (MD) for day sailing when my littlest sister was 2 or 3, but I rather doubt (especially pre-disposable-diapers) anyone in their right mind would take non-potty-trained infants camping for pleasure. So that would seem to rule out the two years before SA, unless the older Swallows went with their father.

As to the canvas, it's described as "light" canvas, so I've always thought of it as closer to muslin.
posted via 73.173.62.89 user Jon.


message 43694 - 09/05/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
Good point (about Mother), but then there a plenty of hints about her childhood in Australia not being that of a typical middle-class navy wife!
posted via 95.149.130.35 user MTD.
message 43693 - 09/05/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
Good observation!

I suppose we are meant to assume they have done 'outdoorsy' things in all their previous school holidays (including sailing at Falmouth) so they have stayed in a few wild spots before, maybe in borrowed tents?

But Mike is right: often a child's first penknife is "the best knife ever" and so on.

This has made me think about Mother, and her middle class-ness. Would an officer's wife, with a nanny and farmers wife to look after her, be prepared to sew a tent? I can imagine her doing some fine needlework, but canvas is tough stuff, and it is hard work to get a needle through!
posted via 81.156.115.105 user Magnus.


message 43692 - 09/04/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
Good question, from the books how they had spent previous holidays is vague.

To answer with some seriousness, Susan's comment is quite common in children as to what is the 'best', it is more a statement they cannot imagine ever experiencing anything better.
posted via 95.149.130.35 user MTD.


message 43691 - 09/04/17
From: Jon, subject: “It’s far the best camp we’ve ever had,” said Mate Susan. . .
. . . of Swallowdale (Titty made the obvious exception of Wildcat Island).
Aside from Wildcat Island and the beach at Horseshoe Cove, where else had they camped? Mother had to make the tents used in SA, and they used rugs/blankets for sleeping then; the tents and sleeping bags are clearly new for SD. Counting the Peak of Darien seems a bit of a stretch, since they hadn't actually put up a tent there.

posted via 73.173.62.89 user Jon.
message 43690 - 09/04/17
From: Andrew Craig-Bennett, subject: BELLS - a clock
I have an American ship's clock - a Chelsea - which was still afloat in 1956 as it has a San Francisco chronometer repairer's sticker on the underside - which strikes ship's bells - apart from the dog watches, which are not curtailed. It seems every American ship, both warship and merchant ship - that was built for WW2 had one, and some of them had electric repeaters so the bells could be heard throughout the accomodation.

posted via 109.158.45.180 user Methersgate.
message 43689 - 08/30/17
From: Peter Wagner, subject: Re: Ships Bells Program
Can you not put it on Dropbox and post a link to download it?
posted via 94.250.228.202 user PeterW.
message 43688 - 08/29/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Ships Bells Program

Ah. Shows about how savvy I am, hm?

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43687 - 08/28/17
From: John, subject: Re: Ships Bells Program
Sorry: I mean a website location so it can be downloaded. GIT would be a bit beyond our members.
posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.
message 43686 - 08/27/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Ships Bells Program

I use a Mac, otherwise I'd offer.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43685 - 08/24/17
From: John, subject: Ships Bells Program
Dear all:

I need a spot where I can put the program so it can be tried as it is developed. It will be an exe file able to run on Windows.

I do not have such a spot.
John
posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.


message 43684 - 08/23/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Service -- so really simple -- question is what do you want it to do exactly
A service application is designed to be long-running, so it usually polls or monitors something in the system. The monitoring is set up in the OnStart method. However, OnStart doesn’t actually do the monitoring. The OnStart method must return to the operating system after the service's operation has begun. It must not loop forever or block. To set up a simple polling mechanism, you can use the System.Timers.Timer component as follows: In the OnStart method, set parameters on the component, and then set the Enabled property to true. The timer raises events in your code periodically, at which time your service could do its monitoring. You can use the following code to do this:
posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.
message 43683 - 08/23/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Clarification: Re: BELLS
I have a clock programme running.

What do we want it to do?

posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.


message 43682 - 08/23/17
From: John, subject: Re: Clarification: Re: BELLS
It should not be that hard to write a ships bells program in C#.
Run as a service, check time every 30 minutes and then wait for the exact point and sound a bell or two.

posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.
message 43681 - 08/23/17
From: Harry Miller, subject: Re: Trip to the UK
Have a great trip Mike and let John know his "Lulu" stories are well remembered by me and no doubt many others.
posted via 70.55.216.36 user dreadnaught.
message 43680 - 08/21/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: BELLS
Yes, I like rereading books too, particularly the “Lake” books in the series . An article on the Australian Barry Humphries said that as a child he was upset when his mother gave away all his books to a charity: “But you’ve read them all, Barry!” The article thought that Barry’s snobbish character Dame Edna Everidge was partly based on his mother.
posted via 203.96.129.149 user hugo.
message 43679 - 08/20/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Trip to the UK
Bon, voyage to both of you! Val and I wish you all the very best of weather, accommodation, food and drink. Have a great trip!
David
posted via 120.148.68.224 user David.
message 43678 - 08/20/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Hullabaloos
In 2012 in a Glasgow B&B we were told that the rules about no food or drink in the rooms did not apply to retired married couples like us who were having sandwiches and wine; the rule was aimed at stag parties. We may have seen rules about “no fish and chips” in rooms too as the aroma is quite penetrating and lingering (so can also be banned backstage). Two notices in English B&Bs warned that if the toilet was blocked there was a £50 or so plumbers callout charge , so dispose of sanitary pads elsewhere!


posted via 203.96.129.149 user hugo.


message 43677 - 08/20/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Trip to the UK
Well, Jenn's and my second trip to the UK starts tomorrow. This one's for two months, instead of the three last time when we toured a lot of Europe as well. We're starting with a week on a hired 'Margoletta' on the Norfolk Broads, then having a short cruise around Secret Water before staying with my SOS mate John in Essex. (With a bit of luck we'll get to see 'Goblin' on the way round, too.)

Then across for a tour of Oxford with friends we met in Canada (or was it China? -- can't remember) a few years back, and who studied at Oxford and know it well. And along the way there'll be a brief visit to Elsfield Manor, the erstwhile baronial seat of John Buchan. Then on to Glasgow for some family research on Jenn's side, before a cruise of the whole of the Western Isles, starting at Stornoway and ending at Barra Head. Then we finish with Scotland with another shorter cruise to see Iona and Staffa (and of course Fingal's Cave).

Then boat to Dublin as a stopping-off point to see most of Ireland by back roads (including some family research on my side). Then back to London briefly before heading off for a back-roads tour of Cornwall -- and catching up with an old mate JohnR (of 'Lulu' fame) in Falmouth.

Finally home via Bangkok to see ex-pat mate Bruce and his lovely Thai wife Meow, before back to (we hope) a considerably-warmer Canberra.

Should be fun. :)
posted via 124.171.218.243 user mikefield.


message 43676 - 08/20/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: BELLS
My wife is the same (about re-reading, once she's read a book that's it), I did get her to read S&A which she liked (and does have an understanding about my obsession!)
posted via 95.145.229.141 user MTD.
message 43675 - 08/19/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: BELLS
My wife does not understand why I would ever want to read any book more than once. I believe the last time she read any book was when it was an assignment in school. I have tried to get her into reading any of the Ransome series, but no go.

However, she did hear my computer ringing those bells, and asked what that was all about, so I explained the concept of the bells and the names of the "watches". A few days later, I had overslept (permitted when retired), and she woke me by saying, "It is 3 bells of the fore-noon watch, and you are still in the bed." She must have gotten the idea right. What a pleasant surprise, nice way to wake up, too. Now when she asks me the time, I give it in bells time, and she just nods her head in understanding. Finally, she has learned something from Ransome. She likes the clanging of the bells on my computer, says it is like having a grandfather clock in the hall clanging out the time, just in a different style.

However, if friends are visiting, and she or I say something about the time using bell notation, we do get funny looks from the visitor.

It is like talking in CODE, but one that is not really a secret.

But we seem to enjoy doing the bell talk to each other, as a
"togetherness" thing. No harm in that...

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43674 - 08/19/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Hullabaloos
True John, but part of the current problem is heavy drinking, loud music and lewd behaviour all of which is having the same effect on locals as the Hullabaloos did and AR was drawing attention to.

As Roger Wardale pointed out in 'Arthur Ransome on the Broads' such visitors from the towns and cities may have been good for the local economy, Ransome was pointing out the problems they were creating (p. 58)

It seems what is happening today is a very similar situation.
posted via 95.146.63.167 user MTD.


message 43673 - 08/18/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Hullabaloos
The Hullabaloos are a mixed group (three men and two women) but going by the scene on the staithe with the Death and Glories and Mrs Barrable there is some sexual tension or rivalry; and as Mrs Barrable says they start making bets as to whether they can find Tom!
posted via 203.96.129.149 user hugo.
message 43672 - 08/18/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Clarification: Re: BELLS
And here's silly old me thinking a telephone was just for making phone calls.... :)>
posted via 124.171.218.243 user mikefield.
message 43671 - 08/18/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Clarification: Re: BELLS

Hope everything goes well.

No, this app is a dud. The bells don't even have a good tone. I'll have to wait for ship's bells until I bring the chiming clock in from the boat for the winter. I'm going cruising for a few days tomorrow, though, so I'll enjoy them then.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43670 - 08/18/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Clarification: Re: BELLS
Great, thanks very much. I'll check this out a bit later today. Have to admit I would not recommend this app to anybody.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43669 - 08/18/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Clarification: Re: BELLS

DRAT! The html coding removed a bunch of words from my post. Sorry for the pseudo double post, but here's what my last one should have looked like:

MacHD > Library > Ship's Clock --I think. Now that it's in the trash I can't remember if it was an independant folder within Library, or if I had to go into another folder within Library, like Componants, to find it. It was pretty obvious, though.

MacHD > Library > PreferencePanes will let you get rid of the actual control panel, rather than just hiding it via the System Preferences.

There's also a file titled "org.sonofagun.shipsclockd.plist" in the Preferences folder, if you want to be really tidy. I *think* that's in the master Library, but it might be in the User Profile Library.

Remember that there are a couple different Library folders: one within your User Profile, and then the master Library under the MacHD icon. You want the latter to dig out the Ship's Clock app itself. (I always get stumped by this detail.)


posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43668 - 08/18/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Clarification: Re: BELLS

MacHD > Library > Ship's Clock --I think. Now that it's in the trash I can't remember if it was an independant folder within , or if I had to go into another folder within , like , to find it.

MacHD > Library > PreferencePanes will let you get rid of the actual control panel, rather than just hiding it via the System Preferences.

Remember that there are a couple different folders: one within your user profile, and then the master under the MacHD icon. You want the latter. (I always get stumped by this detail.)

How the deuce would AR have gotten anything written if he'd needed to mess with a computer? I sometimes consider going back to a fountain pen!

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43667 - 08/18/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Clarification: Re: BELLS
Where did you find it? I've been unable to locate the thing anywhere and it looks as though it's the MacOS equivalent of a daemon - which gets us into complicated stuff.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43666 - 08/18/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Clarification: Re: BELLS

Never mind: Found the app itself and dumped it.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43665 - 08/17/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Clarification: Re: BELLS

No luck here, either: it installed, and worked for a few hours, but then it stopped bothering to chime unless I asked for a "test" (possible on the 10.11 control panel). But it didn't then resume chiming by the clock.

Thank you, Dave, for telling me how to remove it from the Preferences pane. I wish I knew where the app itself was, to remove it from the computer.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43664 - 08/17/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Clarification: Re: BELLS
Well...it turns out it does install correctly but not as an app, rather as a sort of system service. And the only place it appears is in the System Preferences pane at the very bottom (that's where the controls for it are). But it is running and it marks the time correctly.

However there's no way I could find of turning it off. So getting rid of it was more of a challenge - I had to use an option in its control panel to remove it from the System Preferences pane, and then rebooted the system. At least it did remove although it didn't call it that - I was afraid something more complicated was in my future.

So yes, there's a Mac Ships Clock that works under MacOS Sierra 10.12.6 but controls are minimal and inobvious, as is removing it.

Apologies for stuffing all that in a TarBoard post but I wanted to be clear about what to do if you decide to try it.

posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43663 - 08/17/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: BELLS
It doesn't install correctly on MacOS 10.12.6 either. More specifically, it appears to install correctly and claims a successful installation, but once done you cannot find the application anywhere.

posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43662 - 08/16/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: BELLS

Thanks Jon. I've installed it, and will report back on how well it works. It's a pretty old app, so there's no telling how well it'll play with my OS10.11.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43661 - 08/16/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: BELLS
The Mac version is here. More info about the various versions is here. However, the Forum has a report about it failing to install correctly on MacOS 10.5.8. The report is several years old, and hasn't been responded to. All links will open in (one) new tab/window.
posted via 71.81.246.204 user Jon.
message 43660 - 08/16/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: BELLS
Looking into it. A friend who is quite nautical has such an app on his iPhone for sure and I'm going to get that link as well.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43659 - 08/15/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: BELLS

Does anyone know if there's a Ship's Bells app for Mac computers? I couldn't find one specifically for that in their App Store, but I may not be searching correctly.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43658 - 08/15/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: BELLS
Off-topic, I know, but when I got my current PC I insisted on buying a USB plug-in floppy disk drive, which I can now use with any computer.

I haven't used it yet.... :)
posted via 121.45.192.118 user mikefield.


message 43657 - 08/15/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Hullabaloos
... and I've just been reading Wardale's 'Ransome on the Broads', in which he says a boat full of trippers was cast of at Yarmouth in 2012.
posted via 121.45.192.118 user mikefield.
message 43656 - 08/15/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: BELLS

"OTOH, it rather reminds me of a former colleague, whose ring tone for his wife was "General Quarters"."

I just choked on my tea.

Thank you, Jon. I needed some laughter today.

Alex
posted via 73.254.139.107 user Pitsligo.


message 43655 - 08/15/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: BELLS
Yes, there's one for Android; it's mentioned on the Ship's Clock home page. I don't see mention of the iPhone app there, however.

OTOH, it rather reminds me of a former colleague, whose ring tone for his wife was "General Quarters".
posted via 71.81.246.204 user Jon.


message 43654 - 08/15/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: BELLS
A two-edged sword for your family and friends, but you can also get a Ships Bell app for the iPhone (and presumably for Android as well). Perhaps we should put links on ATR for those?
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43653 - 08/14/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Hullabaloos
From a report in the UK Sunday Times last week end it seems all those things that AR was aiming his criticism of in his portrayal of the Hullabaloos in CC is once again a problem on the Norfolk Broads.

The report (I can't provide a link as you have to be an ST subscriber)told how cabin cruiser hirings by hen and stag parties are causing problems with the excessive drinking and extreme lewd behaviour.

I have memories of this being a problem in the 1970s, and then most hire companies refused to hire boats to all male or female groups, it seems now the lure of more income or fear of accusations of discrimination have meant companies once more allow them - and the trouble they cause!
posted via 95.150.14.189 user MTD.


message 43652 - 08/14/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: BELLS
Nothing to do with Bells (or AR really) but good to read you are still on XP Ed, same here (and very occasionally the A: drive), perhaps it is something to with those of us that have been involved with computers from the pre-PC days (that is PC as in IBM - I don't mean 'political correctness' or 'Intercontinental Ballistic Missile')

So there is an AR connection, a kind of nostalgia for different times when people seem to understand how and why things were done in a certain way. Or am I just getting old?
posted via 95.150.14.189 user MTD.


message 43651 - 08/14/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: BELLS
You can also open the ShipsClock folder on your menu and run ShipsClockConfig, which will let you start/stop the service, set the desired volume and set a "quiet" period if you don't want it going off at all hours (and half hours) of the day and night. According to the notes on SourceForge, the current version (the .msi installer package) runs on all versions of Windows up to 7.0.
posted via 71.81.246.204 user Jon.
message 43650 - 08/14/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: BELLS
It'll install under Windows 10 (I'm on the Creator's Update) if you right-click on the installer package and choose "Troubleshoot compatibility". Then you will need to either restart your computer or start Task Manager and go to the "Services" tab where you can start "Ships Clock". If it'll run on 10, it should run on earlier Windows versions using the same basic approach (run the installer in "Compatibility Mode"). I'll give it a go on Win 7 when I get the chance (busy editing two videos, one a time-lapse).
posted via 71.81.246.204 user Jon.
message 43649 - 08/14/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: BELLS
Welcome to The Anachronisms Club, Ed.

I too ran that ship's bell program under XP, but I haven't tried to load it with my current OS Win 7, so I can't tell you whether it still works or not.
posted via 121.45.192.118 user mikefield.


message 43648 - 08/14/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: BELLS

SHIP'S TIME

The concept of using BELLS to announce the time probably originated
with the Swallows's Father, who was an officer in the Royal Navy.

---------- SACH30.TXT
"Four bells of the middle watch," said Captain John, who had
looked at the chronometer with his pocket torch and had just
put it into ship's time for himself.

"What is it in real time?" asked Peggy.

"Two o'clock in the morning," said Captain John. After all,
there were some things these Amazons did not know.

[In the later stories of the series, it seems that Nancy had
become familiar with the concept of telling time with bells.]


---------- SDCH33.TXT
We'll bring our own rations. This is just in case you might
all be exploring if you didn't know we were coming. Expect
us about eight bells of the forenoon watch (John knows
when).

[Part of a note from Swallows's Mother, who seemed quite comfortable
with the concept of bells telling time.]

---------- SDCH17.TXT
Nancy threw the core of her apple into the camp fire and asked
Captain John to look at his chronometer, it was already past
eight bells, and it was clear that even if Captain Nancy and Mate
Peggy ran the whole way home, they had not the smallest chance
of being back for tea.


Nancy's cheerful voice changed suddenly. "The great-aunt
won't be saying how good we are if we're a minute late for
supper. Come on, Peggy. What's the time, John?"

John looked at his watch, but did not put the time into bells.
It was far too serious for that.

"All three meals," said Peggy.

"We've fairly done it this time," said Nancy. "Come on.


---------- PDCH36.TXT
away round to the north-west, and at eight bells, when Titty, and

---------- PDCH18.TXT
But Captain Flint was up again at seven bells, and so were all the

---------- PDCH22.TXT
"Three bells," he said to himself, and then, as Bill looked up from his

---------- PDCH34.TXT
When Nancy struck eight bells, one two, one two, one two, one two,


---------- GNCH1.TXT
"Two bells! Five o'clock. Tea!" called Nancy, almost as if she wanted

---------- GNCH8.TXT
"Four bells," said John, rubbing his eyes. "I thought we were starting

The morning passed. Roger sounded eight bells for noon.


---------- MLCH1.TXT
Nancy'll take over at eight bells. They'd better be getting some sleep

----------------------------------------------------

On the Internet at:

http://www.allthingsransome.net

is offerings of several items of software, one of which is "SHIP'S BELLS"
that makes the computer announce the time on the hour and half hour be
the ringing of a bell tone.

There are several applications offered at that site that have been made
available some time ago. Operating systems have progressed to where
sometimes the older apps will not be accepted by the newer Windows, saying
that "The application is not compatible with the Operating System". As
for me personally, I still use Windows XP, and that is old enough to
be able to run easily the offerings of ATR website. The XP system is no
longer "supported" but for me, it is the one that still works, and runs
the stuff I want to run. I would have rephrased that error message to say
that "The Operating System is no longer compatible with your application."

Perhaps the growth of technology creates such questions as to "where can I
play my 78 RPM records?" Or where to play my 8-track tapes, or even my
tape cassettes or my VHS home videos (such players are becoming rather rare).

My XP computer still has the A: drive (diskette), which can let me
boot a DOS DISKETTE, where I truly feel comfortable with understanding how
to do the things I want to do. I keep several back up copies of that boot
disk, because after all, that is over 30 years old, an anachronism.

But then, at my age, perhaps I am just an anachronism of a bygone age.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43647 - 08/12/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: S&A 2016 film in New Zealand plus trailer
Have seen the 2016 S&A film which was quite good; there was some clapping at the end. Set in Summer 1935, and Ted (Daddy) was in Hong Kong. Titty is Tatty and Susan (but not Tatty) wears shorts.

More arguing between John and Susan than there were in the book, and John calls Roger a duffer twice (which he never does in the book). Roger did manage to lose John’s knife and to fall overboard from Swallow! And would Susan lose a hamper of food overboard when going to the island? The Swallows have binoculars not a telescope.

Introducing the Russian spies who are after Jim enables the film to star a vintage motorcycle sidecar combo and a seaplane, plus a chase along the roof of the steam train carriages! Rio must have had a production of The Mikado on, going by all the Japanese costumes in a procession.

posted via 203.96.139.112 user hugo.


message 43646 - 08/11/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Charcoal-burning to make fireworks to damage houseboat roofs
An interesting history of the manufacture of gunpowder, starting with a drawing of charcoal-burners' mounds. (That's the AR connection....)
posted via 121.45.192.118 user mikefield.
message 43645 - 08/10/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: S&A dustjacket change?
That was quite radical back then!
posted via 95.150.197.139 user MTD.
message 43644 - 08/10/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: S&A dustjacket change?
Cape did in the merest understated way 'promote' the first film on their hardback edition of S & A. I have a 1982 edition and on the dust jacket under ARTHUR RANSOME is printed 'now filmed by Richard Pilbrow'
posted via 86.151.254.248 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43643 - 08/10/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: S&A dustjacket change? - Correction
Apologies, I didn't dig far enough. The book icon in the Kindle library is indeed (now) a picture from the new film. But when you actually load the book, the cover page is the familiar dust jacket (with "80th Anniversary Edition") on the cover.

So the icon is probably just Amazon/Kindle and the publishers themselves may not know anything about it. Possibly an advertising stunt on somebody's part.

It's still irritating; all the rest of the canon are shown with icons of the dust jackets. I hope they will revert S&A to the original icon.

The credit for the digital publication is "RHCP Digital".
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43642 - 08/09/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: S&A dustjacket change?
Its unusual for hardbacks to be used in a promotional way when there is a film or television adaptation (I have no 'inside' knowledge on this, just observation over the years.)

It does seem that Cape have stuck with the original dustwrapper designs, despite all the changes made to the paperback ones.
posted via 95.149.130.44 user MTD.


message 43641 - 08/09/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: S&A dustjacket change?
I went into Foyles bookshop on Waterloo station last summer, when the film came out, to see if they had any promotion going. At first I thought there was none. Then I realised the table beside me had a large pile of new paperbacks, with the cover carrying the picture from the film poster.
I haven't seen any hardback updated like that, but I haven't been looking lately.
posted via 82.145.210.242 user awhakim.
message 43640 - 08/09/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Railway to Rio
For those of you who are reading Pigeon Post this summer and have wondered about the railway journey to Rio, this month's Steam Days magazine has an article about the branch from Oxenholme to Windermere, illustrated with period photographs including pre-1923. After noticing the cover, I looked through a copy at my village newsagents and was impressed - I might even buy a copy!
posted via 86.151.254.248 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43639 - 08/07/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: S&A 2016 film in New Zealand plus trailer
Judging by Ed's comments here regarding that film, it sounds like it's "Lucky you" as well....
posted via 121.45.192.118 user mikefield.
message 43638 - 08/07/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: "burghers of Carlisle"
OOPS - how did that other stuff get in there.

Let's try that poem reference again:

http://www.bartleby.com/41/570.html

There. Now try that. sorry for the momentary confusion.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43637 - 08/07/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: "burghers of Carlisle"
http://www.gocomics.com/forbetterorforworsehttp://www.bartleby.com/41/570.html
SWALLOWDALE QUOTE:
'And the red glare on Skiddaw roused the burghers of Carlisle'

The above reference has the poem whose last line is quoted in Swallowdale. This poem here was references as being much more difficult than the one Captain Flint suggested they "learn" for the GA, especially since they already knew it: "CASABIANCA". The use of warning beacon files on mountain tops was also seen in LORD OF THE RINGS.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43636 - 08/07/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: S&A dustjacket change?
I just went to Amazon.co.uk and searched for "Swallows and Amazons" under "Books"; nothing printed that came up used the 2016 movie picture that showed on the Kindle listing. There were several different images that turned up, and none were the classic Cape image sets. Interestingly, one, a 1993 hardback, showed a photo from the '70s movie as the cover, and two DVDs, both ostensibly 2016 releases, showed the two different movies. The Jonathan Cape site was no help at all. The audio recording of SA had a cover in the style of the classic Cape covers, but with totally different and unrelated pictures (assorted etchings of marine and avian wildlife, and a sidewheeler strongly resembling the SS Savannah of 1819!).
posted via 71.81.246.204 user Jon.
message 43635 - 08/07/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: S&A dustjacket change?
The TWELVE are a set. There is reason to feature a certain style of dust cover on each book that claims it is a member of that set. For SA to come up with a movie commercial violates this membership concept. The "SUSAN and JOHN" on that movie are more in loco parentis than the elder siblings of Titty and Roger, and are definitely not the ones i grew up with and have been close friends with for the rest of my life. The result is repulsive and makes me glad I have the three sets of the older style collection, including one set with the art work of those first editions.

As for reading on the Kindle, I sent the TXT files I typed to that device to carry them with me. No movie commercial there.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]

posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43634 - 08/07/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: S&A dustjacket change?
A few years ago I acquired all of the SA books as Kindle editions while visiting the U.K. The entries in the Kindle library are of course the familiar dust jackets -- or were. Not so long ago I noticed that the first volume, S&A itself, no longer had the familiar dust jacket; the file had been updated to now have a picture from the 2016 movie. I'm not thrilled -- regardless of the merits or lack thereof of the film, I liked the original dust jacket and rather resent this.

But now I wonder if the printed hardcover has this changed dust jacket? I strongly suspect at least paperback edition in the U.K. does but PB editions don't usually use the dust jacket of the hardbound book as a cover.

posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43633 - 08/07/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: S&A 2016 film in New Zealand plus trailer
Lucky you! It still has not made it to Canada
posted via 184.151.37.159 user rlcossar.
message 43632 - 08/04/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Re-reading 'the twelve' after a decade-long gap
I remember 'The Log From The Sea Of Cortez' as being a thoroughly good read -- although, like you, it must be thirty years or more since I read it. I think it was in that book that there was a wonderful account of why you wouldn't try sailing a cat-boat anywhere, because you'd only ever go downwind until you fetched up on a lee shore and had to be towed off....
posted via 121.45.192.118 user mikefield.
message 43631 - 08/04/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Re-reading 'the twelve' after a decade-long gap
May I join your 'Occasional Bibliophiles' group, please? I have a number of books which I haven't read for many years, The Twelve among them. There are the Complete Sherlock Holmes, for example, and many books of poetry. My current read is John Steinbeck's 'Log of the Sea of Cortez, which I am re-reading after some thirty or more years, and I can't remember any of it. Yes, I would say that 'resting' books increases my enjoyment of them. At this rate I have enough to keep me going until I 'finish my innings' (so to speak).
David
posted via 120.148.68.224 user David.
message 43630 - 08/04/17
From: John Wilson, subject: S&A 2016 film in New Zealand plus trailer
The 2016 film is on at the current New Zealanfd International Film Festival, and the website has a trailer for the film on it.

posted via 203.96.137.78 user hugo.
message 43629 - 08/03/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Food and drink in Swallows and Amazons
This link is of course for amazon.co.uk. The book is available on amazon.com in the U.S. (and there's a cross-link on the upper right of the page on amazon.co.uk if you're in the U.S.), In the U.S. it's $2.99 (or free with Kindle Unlimited -- which is only free for 30 days).
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43628 - 08/03/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Food and drink in Swallows and Amazons
Thanks Magnus
posted via 2.31.100.178 user MTD.
message 43627 - 08/03/17
From: Robin Selby, subject: Re: Food and drink in Swallows and Amazons
Thanks for providing the link. I haven't attempted anything as controversial as the recipe for bunloaf - that's over my pay grade.

posted via 86.173.173.117 user RobinSelby.
message 43626 - 08/03/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Food and drink in Swallows and Amazons
I found the link.

This book had better get the bunloaf recipe right, or there will be trouble.... (wink)

posted via 31.51.234.7 user Magnus.
message 43625 - 08/02/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Food and drink in Swallows and Amazons
Interesting Robin - could we have a link?
posted via 2.31.100.178 user MTD.
message 43624 - 08/02/17
From: Robin Selby, subject: Food and drink in Swallows and Amazons
Ransome devotees may be interested to know that I have published an article on Kindle called ‘Food and drink in Swallows and Amazons’. It answers vexed questions such as how much corned beef did the explorers consume during the series, and looks at the way in which Ransome used meals to structure the books. Awards are given for Best Meal and Best Breakfast. The text is supported by detailed statistical appendices. I trust that Dick would approve of them.

Robin Selby

posted via 86.181.147.102 user RobinSelby.


message 43623 - 08/02/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Re-reading 'the twelve' after a decade-long gap
Nothing weird about this. I was given all 12 in JC hardback starting with WH in 1948, when I was four. WD was given to me when. I was six, and it is fair to assume that a lot of the early gifts were read to me! They have been prominent on my shelves ever since
posted via 88.110.81.179 user Mike_Jones.
message 43622 - 08/01/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Re-reading 'the twelve' after a decade-long gap
A complete weirdo? Not at all!

I devoured the books in my childhood (and as I have explained here a few times lived an alternative childhood through them as an escape from the real world.)

As an adult I always had a complete set of the 12, a mixture of the hardbacks from childhood and paperbacks of the ones I had not got. I have to admit I didn't read them much but they were there on the shelf.

Then in my mid-thirties when the Brogan biography was published I became a mature student at the University of Essex where he lectured and I met him - well, sought him out (as I have explained before) which motivated me to return to the books.

In the last ten or so years I've gone to the other extreme (I can thank the Internet and the discovery of TarBoard), I have multiple sets of the 12, I have re-read them numerous times and read as many of the books about them and AR I have been able to get hold of.

Why? As an older adult I appreciate them on two levels, just for the pleasure of reading them and then reading them to discern AR's methods and motivations as an almost academic process.

What I find most interesting is that every time I read them for whatever reason I discover something new, something I had not noticed before, so even though I know the plots this does not detract at all from the re-read.

It's a curious thing, only yesterday a book blog I follow had a post about 'comfort' reading, and my response was of course AR's 12.
posted via 95.149.130.2 user MTD.


message 43621 - 08/01/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Re-reading 'the twelve' after a decade-long gap
Every once in a while (as in a few years) I get an urge to read some of them. I try to pick different ones as I won't get through all 12 each time I decide to read any of the. Right now I'm introducing an elderly friend to them and he is reading them as e-books. He likes the ones with more adult themes like WDMTGTS.

I have my set in a very prominent spot in my home and acknowledge them regularily
posted via 184.151.37.236 user rlcossar.


message 43620 - 08/01/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Re-reading 'the twelve' after a decade-long gap
After a decade of so of going without, I, too, felt it was time to re-read the Ransome tales and renew my childhood friendships with those people. I was amazed how quickly I was able to finish a book, just several hours. It was not re-reading, it was scanning and turning pages, reminding me of what was happening without going into detail. This led me to an alternative procedure: TYPE the stories to a computer .TXT file. It forced me to avoid skimming, but to look at every word, every punctuation mark, note any spelling difference from my American spell checker and the British style of Ransome (ignored up to then). It also got me to notice some errors in the books. This time, I came across parts that I did not remember, that perhaps on previous readings I had just skipped over the descriptions and got onto the actions. There was "newness" in this project that made it a delightful adventure of discovery, much to my pleasure. It also provided me with a computer readable source to search for words or phrases to enhance my relationship with these childhood friends. It was a grand adventure, well worth the efforts, presenting me with a renewal of those adventures that continue to be dear to me even after all these years.

Now I am motivated to re-read, not the books, but my typing, as I am looking for typo errors, which somehow managed to escape notice on previous re-readings. At least this medium avoids wear on the books themselves, some being rather fragile with age. Looking for these errors of my own making helps me to want to look closely, with avoiding the scanning that had previously diluted my revisits to the books.

It is a labour of LOVE that continues to return joyous bounty. I feel I know these people, knowing them as dear friends, continuing to bring me the delights of being "with" them, regardless of my true age.

I am grateful to Ransome for having given me so much pleasure, for having taught me so much without me having to feel I had to learn something, for letting me enjoy the sailing my own with my children on board, for bringing signalling to my attention for me to learn, and then to teach, not only my friends, but my children, and now my grandchildren. My reward was for a grandson to send me a birthday note, consisting of a printout of just dots and dashes. The proof of the pudding is in the eating thereof, and he ate it well.

And my thanks to the Ransome internet community for enhancing my understanding and appreciation of the wonders of these stories. and providing photographic peeks into the land he wrote about, a place I will never get to go, but with the pictures giving me a vicarious visit.
Total so far from Tony Richards Lakeland Camera is 23 GIG of photos.
Not that Ransome's word descriptions needed any further enhancements, but those photos do help make it all so real.

So my THANKS to Arthur, and to You All.

The adventure continues...

Ed Kiser, Kentucky USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43619 - 08/01/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Re-reading 'the twelve' after a decade-long gap
If you are a complete weirdo, then I am quite similar. While my books did not sit completely unopened on the shelves as I occasionally took them down to check some reference or passage, I did not read them completely through for many years until this spring.

I am now re-reading my Patrick O'Brian's which have also been sitting closed for a number of years awaiting a propitious time for another passage. Again, I keep noticing little things which I have either forgotten or never picked up on previous voyages.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43618 - 08/01/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Re-reading 'the twelve' after a decade-long gap
I agree totally with Magnus about the pitfalls of repeated reading of the 12. What I would recommend is to create a 10-year cycle and read one book each year, with two occasionally. I've been doing this for 30 years now and the stories always seem fresh, to the extent that I often can't remember what happens next. (This is also one of the very few advantages of old age.)
posted via 81.129.95.99 user Peter_H.
message 43617 - 08/01/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re-reading 'the twelve' after a decade-long gap
Most of you Tarboarders enjoy re-reading Ransome's S&A books over and over, I am sure. I had to stop doing it though, as I got to a point where every word became too familiar, and I was longing for the deeper enjoyment which comes from reading a book with fresh eyes.

I have a good memory for book plots/details and song lyrics (sadly my brain disregards more useful everyday knowledge) and so there was never any surprise. I really felt my pleasure was being dulled by over-reading.

So I took a break. A ten year break!

I knew that nothing less was going to have any affect on my memory. Hopefully time apart from the books would allow me to later re-read with fresher eyes, and properly enjoy something I loved. It is upsetting when you love something, but cannot truly enjoy doing it. Nothing can conjure up that magic of the first ever reading, of course, but this is about as good as I'm going to get.

I've remained totally Ransome-obsessed, of course. I've still been reading books about Ransome's life, and trying new titles from the Mariner's Library he helped set up. But I found my decade-of-holding-back gave me plenty of time to try new authors too, and there have been some pleasant surprises (and many other books cast aside in disgust!).

I honestly don't feel I have missed out on anything. The green hardbacks have been there on the shelf the whole time, giving me comfort without even needing to be opened!

So do tell me:
1) Am I a complete weirdo?
2) Could you ever take such a break?
3) Do you predict success or failure?
4) Will any place/time suffice, or must I find the perfect moment and the perfect location to heighten my pleasure?
5) Binge on them all quickly, or spread out over a number of years?
posted via 31.51.234.7 user Magnus.


message 43616 - 07/29/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: TARS Literary Weekend
Alan,
Ironically, I read your posting about twenty minutes after my late-night (11.30 pm) return from the final recce for the Literary Weekend up in Edinburgh. Whether or not others have read what you had written and were stirred into action, but suddenly we've taken three more bookings since last night; people might not be posting on Tarboard, but they are reacting to messages such as yours! See you in Edinburgh,

Paul

posted via 81.151.141.22 user Paul_Crisp.


message 43615 - 07/28/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: TARS Literary Weekend
No I won't be going ( the only event I crossed the ocean for was the 10th AGM) though I'm sure it would be interesting. I'm currently introducing S&A to an older friend who is reading books voraciously in his late years and we have two copies as prizes for an upcoming family day at our yacht club

posted via 184.151.37.235 user rlcossar.
message 43614 - 07/28/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: TARS Literary Weekend
TarBoard has always (or at least it seems that way) to exhibit periods, sometimes long ones, of apparent dormancy. Only to wake up when somebody posts something that provokes comments. I once spent a few months keeping track of the lulls between posting spurts (several years ago) and they lasted up to 2-3 weeks on occasion.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43613 - 07/28/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: TARS Literary Weekend
Man: I have been in Italy and the internet here is like way slow.

I am still alive, wish I had more time.

Rob are you in the Lake District at the moment -- thinking of visiting from italy for a day or so and would not mind catching up

John
posted via 137.204.150.33 user Mcneacail.


message 43612 - 07/27/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: TARS Literary Weekend
Well, there's your answer, Alan....
posted via 124.171.131.251 user mikefield.
message 43611 - 07/27/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: TARS Literary Weekend
Is Tarboard dead? Nothing for over a week. Over on the Arthur Ransome Facebook pages, people are asking whether members are going to the weekend in Edinburgh (Sept 1-3). So I thought I would ask here, by way of a test for signs of life.
posted via 82.145.210.244 user awhakim.
message 43610 - 07/17/17
From: Mike Jones , subject: Country Life Magazine 12 July
A pleasant article about a sail on the Nancy Blackett with background on AR and a piece about Sophie Neville.

Interestingly, there is a still from the 1974 movie and a note on how to obtain it on DVD, but no mention of last year's film
posted via 82.132.227.140 user Mike_Jones.


message 43609 - 07/17/17
From: Mike Jones , subject: Country Life Magazine 12 July
A pleasant article about a sail on the Nancy Blackett with background on AR and a piece about Sophie Neville.

Interestingly, there is a still from the 1974 movie and a note on how to obtain it on DVD, but no mention of last year's film
posted via 82.132.227.140 user Mike_Jones.


message 43608 - 07/15/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: The Explorers
Yes, I noted that one too, Ross, and had the same thought. Then I wondered if perhaps there was enough greenery close to the bridge to screen the explorers properly. But I do agree that it's a pretty likely candidate for the prototype.
posted via 124.171.131.251 user mikefield.
message 43607 - 07/15/17
From: Ross, subject: The Explorers
There is a photo on todays Lakeland Cam that reminded me immediately of the illustration from Swallowdale. Its a low stone bridge that Titty and Roger likely went under to avoid crossing the road.
posted via 184.151.36.131 user rlcossar.
message 43606 - 07/14/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Canada's 150th Anniversary
Did AR ever visit North or South America? I'm not sure he ever did.

Not even to sit on a hill above Pernambuco, talking with Arthur Gnosspelius about copper mining in the Lakes? How sad...
posted via 90.255.61.166 user PeterC.


message 43605 - 07/14/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: World Hetitage site.
if they're inaccessible/impenetrable, how do they kow that they're worth designating?

Like the rest of us; they look at it on Google.

posted via 90.255.61.166 user PeterC.


message 43604 - 07/14/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Canada's 150th Anniversary
No Yukon. Closest you get is Alaska mentioned in both WH and PP.

Did AR ever visit North or South America? I'm not sure he ever did.
posted via 31.51.234.7 user Magnus.


message 43603 - 07/13/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Canada's 150th Anniversary

Wasn't there mention of the Yukon in WH? Or perhaps PP? Though maybe that was in reference to what's now Alaska. Can't recall; may be imagining it anyway.

Ed, are you around to run a search?

Alex
posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43602 - 07/12/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: World Hetitage site.
Inaccessible Island, near Tristan da Cunha in the South Atlantic, was so named when it was first discovered and it was found to be impossible to climb the high cliffs and get access to the interior. Since then people have managed to get up them and found the smallest non-flying bird the Inaccessible Island rail.

I suspect Inpenetrable Forest in Uganda was found to be hard to penetrate. Its now one of the major gorilla refuges.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43601 - 07/11/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: World Hetitage site.
If in Scotland - obvious answer
if in Wales -- see if it has been mined

posted via 137.204.150.12 user Mcneacail.
message 43600 - 07/10/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: World Hetitage site.
There are quite a few 'tracts of countryside' on the UK part of the World Heritage List.

I didn't know until I saw that list that there's an Inaccessible Island.

I did know that there's a Bwindi Impenetrable National Park in Uganda.

I'm tempted to ask, if they're inaccessible/impenetrable, how do they kow that they're worth designating?
posted via 109.180.191.50 user eclrh.


message 43599 - 07/10/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: World Hetitage site.
It is not a tract of countryside it is the only tract of countryside worth anything.
posted via 137.204.150.35 user Mcneacail.
message 43598 - 07/09/17
From: Jock, subject: Re: World Hetitage site.
There are quite a few 'tracts of countryside' on the UK part of the World Heritage List.
posted via 178.43.134.194 user Jock.
message 43597 - 07/09/17
From: Owen Roberts, subject: World Hetitage site.
UNESCO awards the "Lake District" World Heritage site status.
I wonder how much the influence of AR and other authors have contributed to this award?
In the UK, awards have been made to mines, bridges, stone and brick artefacts - rare for tract of countryside to be included.
posted via 51.6.241.58 user OwenRoberts.
message 43596 - 07/08/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Beckfoot Plumbing
I agree entirely with Adam's comments.

posted via 124.171.200.16 user mikefield.
message 43595 - 07/08/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Beckfoot Plumbing
You must remember that (apart from the piracy) ML reflects AR's own experiences of China in 1927. The country may well have changed in the 13 years since, though he would have had no first-hand knowledge.
In any case, ML is notionally set in about 1932, only five years after his journey there.
posted via 82.145.211.187 user awhakim.
message 43594 - 07/08/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Beckfoot Plumbing
Buchan was a slightly older generation from Ransome, he also wrote about more cosmopolitan surroundings (Fosse manor excluded) as such he reflected the casual racism and anti-Semitism of discourse in his time. How much was personal (he was an avid Zionist for example) and how much putting attitudes on his characters which he did not wholly espouse is hard to say.

After all Ransome does use the n-word in a casual conversation without it obviously being a slur, and his description of some of the Chinese in Missee Lee strikes me as being a bit patronising at the very least and possibly racist if you want to go that far.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43593 - 07/08/17
From: john nichols, subject: Beckfoot Plumbing
So I am reading John Buchan's The Three Hostages in an Italian Café and I come across his description of a ram needed for his house in the Cotswalds to supplement the well.

it seems in 1924 just using the term ram was enough for the readers. If you used it today no one would have a clue except Tarboarders

--------------------------------------------------------------------

If Max (Beaverbrook) gets to Heaven he won't last long. He will be chucked out for trying to pull off a merger between Heaven and Hell ... after having secured a controlling interest in key subsidiary companies in both places, of course.

H. G. Wells

I thought this also interesting on the Lake Land cam today.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I must say I am struck by the racism in Buchan -- was that really normal at the time -- AR seems to have been completely normally modern compared to Buchan
posted via 137.204.150.34 user Mcneacail.


message 43592 - 07/07/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Canada's 150th Anniversary
Kayaks are not considered to be a sort of canoe in Canadian English, they are a separate type of watercraft, just as rowing boats are not canoes (except at Beckfoot of course).
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 43591 - 07/07/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Canada's 150th Anniversary
Reading the words "Canadian canoe" now strikes me as looking odd. Here, of course, we just call them canoes

Serious paddlers call them canoes in Britain too. The other sort are kayaks.
posted via 86.145.168.104 user MartinH.


message 43590 - 07/06/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Canada's 150th Anniversary
Reading the words "Canadian canoe" now strikes me as looking odd. Here, of course, we just call them canoes.

I recall a joke that my children used to tell.

"What do Chinese people call Chinese food?"

"Food".
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43589 - 07/06/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Canada's 150th Anniversary
The best mention you're gonna get is chapter 3 of Coot Club:

Tom drove it along with a single paddle, like a Canadian canoe, and he took some pride in being able to keep the Dreadnought moving at a good pace without making the slightest sound.
posted via 31.51.234.7 user Magnus.


message 43588 - 07/04/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Canada's 150th Anniversary
Belated thanks for the good wishes. I don't think AR ever wrote anything specifically about Canada, not even in Winter Holiday or Pigeon Post with the gold prospecting both of which could have had a Canadian connection.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 43587 - 07/03/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Canada's 150th Anniversary
As one of those Cannucks, thanks eh!
posted via 184.151.37.94 user rlcossar.
message 43586 - 07/02/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Canada's 150th Anniversary
best wishes to all our Canadian friends on this significant anniversary for Canada.
David
posted via 110.144.4.9 user David.
message 43585 - 06/25/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: S&A 2016 film releasing in the US
Currently there are no plans for any Canadian theatrical release. Ias ked about it and got this response.

Hi Adam,

Swallows and Amazons will not be receiving a Canadian theatrical release but will be available to rent on iTunes on July 14! Let me know if you have any other questions. Thanks!

Best,
Taylor Devorsky
Marketing and Outreach Assistant
Samuel Goldwyn Films
8675 Washington Blvd, STE 203
Culver City, CA 90232
T: 310-237-6876
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43584 - 06/23/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: S&A 2016 film releasing in the US
It's apparently a VERY LIMITED screening. Elizabeth Jolley tracked down their distributor and got this response on the full schedule:
Hi Elizabeth,

Great to hear from you! Please find below the cities for the release and theater they will be playing at in each city. Note that, for the shows listed as 7/13: these cities will only be showing the film for one night only on that Thursday night. If a 7/14 date has an asterisk by it, then the theater will also be playing Thursday showings as well. In addition, as I let Robin know, the film will available on video-on-demand services iTunes, Amazon Video, Google Play, Vudu, and Fandango Now and on Cable VOD platforms through AT&T, DirecTV, InDemand, and Ubiquity on July 14 as well. Let me know if you have any questions!

7/13/17 (One Night Only)
Bellingham, WA: Pickford Film Center
Cape Cod, MA: Wellfleet Cinemas
Mystic, CT: Mystic Luxury Cinemas
Seattle, WA: SIFF Film Center
New Haven, CT: Ciné 4

7/14/17
Pasadena, CA: Laemmle Playhouse*
Portland, OR: Clinton Street Theater*
Lambertville, NJ: ACME Screening Room
Boston, MA: Apple Cinemas Cambridge*
Columbus, OH: Gateway Film Center*
San Francisco, CA: Presidio Theatre*
Plainville, CT: AMC Plainville 20
Londonderry, NH: AMC Classic Londonderry 10
St Petersburg, FL: AMC Sundial 20
Washington, D.C: AMC Loews Rio 18


Best,
Taylor Devorsky
Marketing and Outreach Assistant
Samuel Goldwyn Films
8675 Washington Blvd, STE 203
Culver City, CA 90232
T: 310-237-6876



Whether the 7/14 showings will run for a full week, or only the one day, I don't know.
posted via 73.173.62.89 user Jon.
message 43583 - 06/22/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: S&A 2016 film releasing in the US
I'm looking forward to this. It may not stick to the original plot perfectly but it doesn't seem too far off a story the children may have concocted around a camp fire in the likes of Peter Duck.
posted via 184.151.36.113 user rlcossar.
message 43582 - 06/22/17
From: Jon, subject: S&A 2016 film releasing in the US
Samuel Goldwyn Films contacted Robin Marshall to let him know that they will be releasing the latest S&A film this summer. Web page here. The message, passed on via Simon Horn of TARS-Canada, mentioned it releasing in St. Petersburg, FL on July 14; I expect that will be the general release date, but they don't mention locations or dates on the web page.
posted via 160.111.250.108 user Jon.
message 43581 - 06/21/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Answers found in P&M
The last time the Blacketts' schooling was discussed was in December 2016

I see I mentioned the quote about Mrs Blackett visiting them at their school in post 43137 on New Year's Eve. Maybe some were too busy celebrating to take it in.
posted via 109.180.191.50 user eclrh.


message 43580 - 06/21/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: The two Billies - Charcoal burners.
Maybe the metal container is a development since AR's youth.
posted via 109.180.191.50 user eclrh.
message 43579 - 06/21/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Answers found in P&M
Going to school 'locally' does not preclude boarding. When I was at boarding school in the 50s and 60s, many of the pupils lived within Twenty minutes by car.
posted via 88.110.76.119 user Mike_Jones.
message 43578 - 06/21/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: The two Billies - Charcoal burners.
where AR got his reference from to use in the book

From his own experience (as with most things). He describes in his Autobiography childhood holidays at Nibthwaite where there were "charcoal-burners who in those days still dwelt in wigwams carefully watching their smoking mounds".
posted via 81.129.127.148 user Peter_H.


message 43577 - 06/20/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Answers found in P&M
The last time the Blacketts' schooling was discussed was in December 2016 and the first poster said that he had assumed that the Blacketts went to school locally. Admittedly most people in that thread thought that they were boarders, but there you are. So not necessarily a settled question in some minds.
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.
message 43576 - 06/20/17
From: Glen Jansen, subject: Re: The two Billies - Charcoal burners.
Thank you Robert, yes I must admit that I thought so too. This was a technique used in the Wyre Forest, Worcestershire, - perhaps it was also used in the Lake District as well. Not quite sure where AR got his reference from to use in the book.
posted via 81.170.14.53 user Worldofmouth.
message 43575 - 06/20/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Answers found in P&M
I'm surprised to see AQ regarding these questions as newly settled. I thought they'd both been settled at least once before.

You missed another relevant quote in PM, three pages into the first chapter (pp.9-10 in my Cape hardback): "Before leaving, Mrs Blackett had visited Nancy and Peggy at their school" (singular). I think that one has been appealed to in previous discussions.

One point which I can't remember whether we've discussed before: In WH chapter 5 we learn thet the Ds had previously skated "on the indoor skating rink close by the University buildings at home". Did we establish whether ther is/was a rink in Bloomsbury or other plausible London site?

Of course their father could have moved from another university to London between WH and PM - especially as he seems not to have the title Professor in the earlier books.

posted via 109.180.191.50 user eclrh.


message 43574 - 06/20/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: The two Billies - Charcoal burners.
Over the decades I've seen three or four items on TV about charcoal burning, but your video is the first in which they set fire to the wood in the open, then cover it with earth as in the book. The others all used large cylindrical metal containers.
posted via 109.180.191.50 user eclrh.
message 43573 - 06/20/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Walker family 'schoolroom'
I have assumed that a room was set aside for the young Walkers who were not yet of an age to go to boarding school, say seven or eight. So it would have been a constant feature of their accommodation wherever they were stationed.
posted via 88.110.76.119 user Mike_Jones.
message 43572 - 06/19/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Walker family 'schoolroom'
This talk of the Blackett's school arrangements has reminded me of something I do not understand about the Walker family.

S&A Chapter XXIII:
A few minutes later Captain John was lying flat on his stomach on the ground with the guide-book and its map open before him. ...
“There isn’t room to do it here really properly,” he said, “but this is a sketch chart and we’ll do a good one after we get home.”
“A huge one,” said Roger, “like daddy’s chart of the China Seas.”
“And we’ll hang it up on the schoolroom wall to show where we’ve been,” said Susan.

S&A Chapter XXIX:
A moment later Captain Flint walked into the firelight. He carried a large cage wrapped up in a blue cloth cover. ...
[label reads] “From Captain Flint to the able-seaman who saved his Life.”
“But I didn’t save your life,” said Titty.
“I didn’t write life. I wrote Life,” said Captain Flint. “Mixed Moss. It’s the same thing.”
“Thank you very much indeed,” said Titty. “I’ll hang it up in the schoolroom, ready for the parrot.”

What is this 'schoolroom' they speak of? A room at home where they are taught? By Mother or a governess? Or do they mean a 'common room' at a real school?

(Apologies if this has been covered before; I can't find it online.)
posted via 81.129.149.32 user Magnus.


message 43571 - 06/19/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Answers found in P&M
Later in PM (Chapter 3) Nancy says: "last time she was here (i.e. SD), Uncle Jim told Mother she ''must never have the G.A. here again except in term time. And Mother said she never would". Also indicating that the Amazons went (together) to a boarding school.
posted via 202.154.144.216 user hugo.
message 43570 - 06/19/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
Magnus asks, Who can name a book that deceives the reader as to a lead character's sex?

A book I read a few years which, had me assuming one gender when it was revealed to be the opposite in the final chapter, was "Sunset Breezer" by Rosie Austen. Incidentally this is also a book about sailing, though primarily about the people and places seen rather than the mechanics of sailing.
posted via 109.150.84.197 user MartinH.


message 43569 - 06/19/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: Answers found in P&M
I think the evidence for the Amazons attending boarding school's been around longer than that. In SA, Peggy and Susan speak of going to school at the end of the summer in much the same terms; in WH, the quarantine papers for all three families were pretty much the same; and in SW, Mrs. Blackett was coming down to London to "scrub and holystone" the Amazons to get them ready for school. If they were day students, she wouldn't need to meet them in London for that.
posted via 73.173.62.89 user Jon.
message 43568 - 06/18/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Answers found in P&M
The first I believe was common knowledge.

The second I think is a very good piece of evidence. Good find!
posted via 184.151.36.113 user rlcossar.


message 43567 - 06/18/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Answers found in P&M
A recent reading of "The Picts and the Martyrs" has given me what I consider to be definitive answers to a couple of issues which have been discussed here a number of times. The first is the question of where do the Ds live?

It appears that they are glad to have been invited to Beckfoot by an absentee Molly Blackett because otherwise they would have had to spend two weeks "sweltering in London" while their father marked exam papers.(Chapter 2) I doubt that they would have sweltered there unless it was their home.

Secondly, did Nancy and Peggy go to boarding school?

The GA seems to think so, because in her letter inviting herself to come and look after the lonesome waifs abandoned by their mother, she writes"...your mother did not tell me that she would be away from home when you returned from school for your vacation." (Chapter 3)
posted via 173.32.120.207 user Adam.


message 43566 - 06/18/17
From: Glen Jansen, subject: The two Billies - Charcoal burners.
I was recently in Bewdley museum in Worcestershire, and as part of their display on charcoal burning in the Wyre Forest, showed this short video of charcoal burners. I was struck as to how similar it was to the description by AR in S&A. I hope you enjoy this.
posted via 81.170.11.232 user Worldofmouth.
message 43565 - 06/17/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Grand Aunts??
The OED entry for grand-aunt (which it hyphenates) says it is much rarer than great-aunt, but is commoner in Irish English than in other varieties.
posted via 109.180.191.155 user eclrh.
message 43564 - 06/17/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Grand Aunts??
GRAND AUNTS is an answer in today's Times Crossword. The clue includes the phrase "intimidates relatives", which argues at least a subliminal acquaintance with AR on the compiler's part, but I don't think I have ever come across Grand Aunts. I think Great Aunts should rise up in protest.
posted via 88.110.89.9 user Mike_Jones.
message 43563 - 06/17/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Grand Aunts??
GRAND AUNTS is an answer in today's Times Crossword. The clue includes the phrase "intimidates relatives", which argues at least a subliminal acquaintance with AR on the compiler's part, but I don't think I have ever come across Grand Aunts. I think Great Aunts should rise up in protest.
posted via 88.110.89.9 user Mike_Jones.
message 43562 - 06/16/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
Perhaps it is a British thing, as being American, most of these authors mentioned in this topic I have never heard of. I did read Secret Garden and the Alice In Wonderland and Through the looking Glass, but those others are just unknowns to me. However, my older sister had quite a collection of the Nancy Drew series, which I enjoyed every one.

One side note here, about Through the Looking Glass: that book gave me a word that has become a part of my vocabulary, even though when I use it, people question me as to whether maybe I just made it up, and cannot believe it was used in that classic Alice book. The word is MISCONSCREWED which lets it be subject to invalid interpretations. It means to DELIBERATE take the wrong understanding knowing some other meaning was intended. Now, have fun looking through your Looking Glass copy to see if you can find it.

Oh, the things we learn from the love of Ransome. These daily visits to this Forum are quite an education.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43561 - 06/16/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
Perhaps it is a British thing, as being American, most of these authors mentioned in this topic I have never heard of. I did read Secret Garden and the Alice In Wonderland and Through the looking Glass, but those others are just unknowns to me. However, my older sister had quite a collection of the Nancy Drew series, which I enjoyed every one.

One side note here, about Through the Looking Glass: that book gave me a word that has become a part of my vocabulary, even though when I use it, people question me as to whether maybe I just made it up, and cannot believe it was used in that classic Alice book. The word is MISCONSCREWED which lets it be subject to invalid interpretations. It means to DELIBERATE take the wrong understanding knowing some other meaning was intended. Now, have fun looking through your Looking Glass copy to see if you can find it.

Oh, the things we learn from the love of Ransome. These daily visits to this Forum are quite an education.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43560 - 06/16/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Death od Margaret Sanders
Thanks for sharing this bit of Ransome related info. I hope that kids are signing out those books
posted via 184.151.37.53 user rlcossar.
message 43559 - 06/14/17
From: Methersgate, subject: Re: Lottie blossom 1 looking for new owner.
I would just like to say that she is a very nice boat and has been kept that way by her expert owners, so a very nice "buy" for someone.
posted via 109.158.29.95 user Methersgate.
message 43558 - 06/14/17
From: Methersgate, subject: Re: Swallowdale - Explanation - a copy that has it...
My copy has the Clifford Webb illistrations and has the following dates:

First Published 1931
Reprinted July 1932
Reprinted August 1932

It has "FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT READ "SWALLOWS AND AMAZONS" at pages 13 and 14 and the text begins on page 17
posted via 109.158.29.95 user Methersgate.


message 43557 - 06/14/17
From: Methersgate, subject: The Secret Garden
My father was born in 1903 and "The Secret Garden" was the favourite book of his sickly childhood (he spent quite a time in an isolation hospital with diptheria).

He came back from a trip to Nairobi ("Civilisation" - we lived in Mogadishu!) with a copy of S&A for my seventh birthday. It was obviously the book that he would have wanted to be given as a child, but he was 26 when it came out!

Unsurprisingly, the other favourite books in his juvenile library were by E. Nesbit, but he also suffered the sort of thing that Lewis Carroll lampooned in "Alice", because he used to come out with remarks about "improving the shining hour", and suchlike.
posted via 109.158.29.95 user Methersgate.


message 43556 - 06/14/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
Magnus asks, Who can name a book that deceives the reader as to a lead character's sex?
In an adult book, Rose Macaulay's The Towers of Trebizond takes great care to be ambiguous about the gender of the lead character, Laurie, until the very end. Modern commentators don't come to it with fresh eyes, and tend to give the game away.
If you think you don't know the book, it has one of the most famous opening sentences in literature: "Take my camel, dear", said my Aunt Dot, as she climbed down from this animal on her return from High Mass.
posted via 82.145.211.186 user awhakim.
message 43555 - 06/14/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Death od Margaret Sanders
Some of you may have known Margaret Sanders, brother of John Sanders who married "The Ship's Baby". I have heard that she died recently, though I don't know the exact date.
Margaret was a supporter of the legacy of Ransome and the S&A books and, about 14 years ago, provided a full set of the books to our local primary school.

posted via 109.150.84.197 user MartinH.
message 43554 - 06/14/17
From: Duncan, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
Yes - I think that's always a good idea.
Having said that Secret Garden was always "up there" with my favourite books as a child and I never thought of it as a "girl's book".

Interestingly, I'm teaching an adult evening class about short stories at the moment, and I used one of Bill Naughton's short stories for children (Spit Nolan) and the women in the group (they're all women!) all thought that it would appeal to boys rather than girls. The reason didn't appear to be because it was a story about boys (I'm not sure there was a single girl) but because it focused so much on the technicality of the go-karts/trollies. It does make me wonder whether the technical sailing (and occasionally fishing/prospecting, etc) elements of AR's books ever put off girl readers? I don't really see why it should do, but I suppose being a bit obsessed with one particular thing is quiet boyish.
posted via 212.219.3.100 user Duncan.


message 43553 - 06/11/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
Edith Nesbit, who I believe Ransome admired. had a mixed family as leads in most of her children's books.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43552 - 06/11/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?

I notice that all of us who have contributed to this thread thus far are male. In our exchange, we all seem to agree that the gender of the lead character doesn't make much difference to any of us, personally, and we've seen a fair bit to indicate it might not make *much* difference at all so long as the story itself is engaging.

How about each of us now takes the time to go ask a female friend? A little bit of direct research, instead of guessing from past conversations?

My ex just arrived, so I'll ask her, and I'll ask my sister when I see her this week.

More later.

Alex
posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43551 - 06/11/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
I can think of pre AR/EB books with more the one lead character, but they tend to be all boys or all girls, e.g Little Women, written by a woman, and The Coral Island, written by a man.

More generally, the idea of a lead character is limiting in itself. Who is the lead character in e.g. Oliver Twist or Dombey and Son?
posted via 92.18.209.175 user Mike_Jones.


message 43550 - 06/11/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
"She has expressed concern that boys are not inclined to read books that have a lead girl."

Did she express this as a feeling on her part, or an assertion? Either way did she offer any substantiation (I'm not looking for peer-reviewed studies here, but a bit of understanding would help). I am curious because this strikes me as possibly "anecdotal evidence", which isn't.

Perhaps the previous concern that children weren't reading at all has been superceded?

posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43549 - 06/11/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
...can there really be ‘female’ and ‘male’ books?

The original question was about a male or female lead, and whether that mattered to children. It would be nice to think it doesn't matter, but I'm pretty sure it does.

Anyway, it has made me think...

AR, Enid Blyton, and many others were cunning in their use of a mixed group, so that the idea of a 'lead' character was carefully blurred. Was this a relatively modern trick, in the 1920s/30s? I wonder if older books (Treasure Island, for example) were more often stuck with a single lead character. Was that the exception or the rule?

Plus...
Who can name a book that deceives the reader as to a lead character's sex? I recall that the last page of "The Turbulent Term of Tyke Tiler" (1977 Carnegie medal winner) reveals the trick the author has been running throughout the book. Most people assume it is a stereotypical naughty schoolboy, not a tomboy.
posted via 31.48.241.183 user Magnus.


message 43548 - 06/11/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
This maybe slightly ‘off-topic’ with regard to AR but can there really be ‘female’ and ‘male’ books?

If there are, then when and who decided that AR’s are for ‘boys’ (though some of the early editions reviews show that they were clearly thought of as that.)

To the general question, I just read novels that look interesting from their blurb, if when I start reading them I don’t enjoy them or like them I just stop. Quickly thinking about it most of my favourite novels are by women and so are my favourite writers, at a very quick estimate I would say 70%.

Not that it matters, it doesn’t even come down to the quality. Sometimes I read ‘rubbish’ as a form or relaxation or escape.
posted via 2.30.78.183 user MTD.


message 43547 - 06/10/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: Copyright on AR's works
The Godine Ransomes have the same illustrations as the JC Ransomes. Spelling, too.
posted via 73.173.62.89 user Jon.
message 43546 - 06/10/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
Yes, My 13/14 year old daughter loves the Alex Rider series, and the Percy Jackson series. She has no problems with a male lead and action/adventure.

Then she read Jacqueline Wilson and other 'girly' stuff as well. That's the way to do it: rounded!

On the same theme...
All grown men should try a 'chick flick' book once or twice. They are a very interesting insight into the secret world of women. Will make your eyebrows rise! (And you may well groan, of course.)
posted via 31.48.241.183 user Magnus.


message 43545 - 06/09/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Copyright on AR's works
In Australia and New Zealand books published simultaneously in America and Britain were only available from the British publishers until this cozy agreement was deemed uncompetitive. Part of rules allowing parallel importing, although this can cause problems with electronic items under guarantee where (quite fairly?) the authorised importer does not feel obliged to honour the guarantee. And allowing multizone DVD players means that DVDs can be imported by local suppliers like "The Warehouse" and played in New Zealand.

PS: do the American Godine editions of S&A books have any differences apart from the illustrations eg Americanised spelling? Of course some British editions eg Red Fox also have their own or amended illustrations compared with Cape.
posted via 202.154.145.223 user hugo.


message 43544 - 06/09/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
I had heard of Anne of Green Gables, Katie and what she did, Little Women, and Noel Streatfeild's ballet books, but it never occurred to me to read any of them. But how many girl contemporaries of mine used to read Biggles?

I think that makes sense, in general. Boys will identify more readily with boy characters, and identifying with the characters is certainly important. But I had a sister, and she read Malcolm Saville books... And I certainly read those, and enjoyed them a lot. I suspect that "cross-gender" reading happens a great deal between brothers and sisters.
I don't think that my sister read my Biggles books, but Anne, my (Swiss) wife, who was one of a family of four sisters, told me that they all read Biggles books.
posted via 90.255.37.238 user PeterC.


message 43543 - 06/09/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
As for the issue of boys being 'put off' I think it is far more complex than just saying its becasue there is no male lead.

I'm sure it is much more complex than just the gender of the lead character. In my opinion boys like stories with action and adventure and are not so keen on "goody goody" books. Girls are more content with a slower story which develops character and emotional ties. These are probably generalisations and there are probably examples among your own family and friends which do not fit.

Certainly I read some books that were considered to be for girls: Ballet Shoes and Heidi for two. The former I reread at least once.

Are there any teachers or librarians on tarboard who can tell us whether the Alex Rider series appeal to girls as well as boys, and do boys read the Tracey Beaker books?
posted via 86.189.206.87 user MartinH.


message 43542 - 06/08/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
I agree. I too had never thought of lead characters in AR's books. Pretty well all the children have their moments of "leadership", and the books are the richer for it.
posted via 88.110.92.1 user Mike_Jones.
message 43541 - 06/08/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
When I first read AR it never occured to me that there were single lead characters at all, and now all these years later realise this is one of his many strengths as a writer.

As for the issue of boys being 'put off' I think it is far more complex than just saying its becasue there is no male lead.
posted via 95.150.15.77 user MTD.


message 43540 - 06/08/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
Does Lauren Child feel equally strongly about the possibility that girls feel the same way about books with a lead boy? Thinking of my own childhood, I had heard of Anne of Green Gables, Katie and what she did, Little Women, and Noel Streatfeild's ballet books, but it never occurred to me to read any of them. But how many girl contemporaries of mine used to read Biggles?

From the point of view of sales, children's authors benefit from appealing to both sexes, as AR obviously did.
posted via 88.110.92.1 user Mike_Jones.


message 43539 - 06/08/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?

I know "Secret Garden" was one of my favorites while growing up, as were the "Borrower" books, with Arrietty in the lead. The only other book from my youth (that I remember) with a female lead was "From The Mixed-up Files Of Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler", but I think I'm comfortable saying that had I been handed any given story, the protagonist's gender wouldn't have mattered so long as s/he was admirable and it was a good story.

As for S&A, I know I identified with both John *and* Titty, in about equal measure. It was much more about sympathetic personalities than similar chromosomes.

Alex
posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43538 - 06/08/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
I believe that Philip Pullman's "His Dark Materials" books are popular with boys as well as girls despite one of the main child characters being female.
Going back to John Wilson's post on 25 great girl characters video 9http://www.tarboard.net/tarboard/messages/43509.htm) I find that I had read about half of the books mentioned, some I hadn't because I was too old!
I suspect that good literate children's books will appeal regardless of whether the main character is a hero or a heroine.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43537 - 06/08/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Do boys read girls books?
I believe that Philip Pullman's "His Dark Materials" books are popular with boys as well as girls despite one of the main child characters being female.
Going back to John Wilson's post on 25 great girl characters video 9http://www.tarboard.net/tarboard/messages/43509.htm) I find that I had read about half of the books mentioned, some I hadn't because I was too old!
I suspect that good literate children's books will appeal regardless of whether the main character is a hero or a heroine.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43536 - 06/08/17
From: andy clayton, subject: Do boys read girls books?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-40185267


Lauren Child, who writes Charlie and Lola stories, has become the new Children's Laureate. She has expressed concern that boys are not inclined to read books that have a lead girl. Ransome changed the gender of Taqui Altounyan to John Walker to improve the balance of S&A but there is still a preponderance of females in the series. Certainly the leaders, or the ones who narrate the viewpoint are often the girl characters. Did this affect the interest of any of the male readers here? I am thinking not at all or they still wouldn't be reading them today. Thoughts?
posted via 46.208.204.1 user cousin_jack.


message 43535 - 06/06/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Copyright on AR's works
In Canada, as a relic of Empire and Commonwealth, most British authored books are usually first published by British publishers using British editions rather than American publishers using American editions. Sometimes American editions are imported and so you can compare the two in bookstores, for example the Red Fox and Godine editions of Ransome's works.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43534 - 06/05/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Copyright on AR's works
While the expiry of copyright on AR’s works in Britain is from 1 January 2038, in Canada, New Zealand and a number of other countries it is “Life + 50” (not 70) years or from 1 January 2018. But I do not propose to reprint "Swallows and Amazons" next year (relief all round!). In America as the series were published before 1978 the rule is 95 years from date of publication, and the copyright on "Swallows and Amazons" will expire in 2025 or 2026, and later for other books in the series. I do not know whether it is 95 years from the exact date or (like current copyright) from the beginning of the next year i.e. 1 January 2026 (obviously preferable, in view of the difficulty sometimes in establishing the exact date of publication or of author’s death). This would depend on the date of publication in America (and perhaps Canada?) I suppose. I noticed in a biography of Ngaio Marsh that some of her crime novels in the 1930s to 1950s were published in different years in Britain and America (sometimes later but in some cases earlier, e.g. "Spinsters in Jeopardy" in 1953 by Little Brown, Boston, and in 1954 by Collins, London).

PS: I noticed in the Wikipedia article on "Copyright in the United States" that a judge in 2016 decided that copyright on remastered recordings would be extended, in view of the work in remastering them.

PS: as noted the performing rights to Barrie’s play "Peter Pan" (owned by the Great Ormond Street Hospital) were extended indefinitely. As Barrie died in 1937 his British copyright ran out at the end of 1987; but was brought back by the 1995 harmonisation of EC copyright, until the end of 2007.

posted via 203.96.137.144 user hugo.
message 43533 - 06/03/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: My politics is fishing
Thanks, Woll. I realise now that several of the messages you refer to were removed before I read them - hence my puzzlement.
posted via 5.81.1.61 user Peter_H.
message 43532 - 06/03/17
From: Woll, subject: Re: My politics is fishing
The messages that were removed from the "Copyright on AR's works" conversation, contained political opinions not relevant to a discussion on copyright in relation to AR's works, or TarBoard. The other messages in the conversation remain in place.
posted via 87.112.221.8 user Woll.
message 43531 - 06/02/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: My politics is fishing
Thanks again, Adam. :)
posted via 124.171.165.188 user mikefield.
message 43530 - 06/02/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: My politics is fishing
Sorry Adam, but I don't understand how discussing the international aspects of copyright law has necessarily to be 'political'. As I saw it, the argument was in essence whether, from the Ransome point of view, it might have been better to have aligned our copyright laws with those of the USA and Canada (both mainly English-speaking) rather than with the laws of the European countries (all non-English speaking and therefore, with one or two exceptions, not really interested in Ransome's works). Copyright is complex and by its nature arouses international issues - these should not be confused with politics. AR's 'fishing' answer was given to Sir Basil Thomson, Head of Scotland Yard, when AR was in real danger of being arrested as a spy - rather a different matter altogether.
posted via 5.81.1.61 user Peter_H.
message 43528 - 06/01/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: My politics is fishing
Fair cop, guv'nor. You got us bang to rights. P C Tedder would be proud of you.
posted via 92.18.210.27 user Mike_Jones.
message 43527 - 06/01/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: My politics is fishing
Thank you.
posted via 90.255.37.238 user PeterC.
message 43526 - 06/01/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: My politics is fishing
Thank you.
posted via 90.255.37.238 user PeterC.
message 43525 - 06/01/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: My politics is fishing
I would ask you all to review the TarBoard Terms and Conditions of Use, especially No.6 "Whilst encouraging a wide range of views, we will consider removing any content that other users might find offensive, threatening or merely annoying."

Given the comments I assume that one or more of these apply and have acted accordingly.

posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43518 - 05/31/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Copyright on AR's works
The copyright on Arthur Ransome’s works published before 1923 has expired in America. While America now has the "Life + 70y" rule for works published from 1978, his works from 1923 would come under different rules in America (depending on year of publication not of death, and sometimes whether the copyright had been renewed).

Now, the important date is the year of death of the author, and copyright expires 50 or 70 years after death, or rather from the 1st of January of the next year. Hence the period is not affected by the date of death in that year, or the years in which the works were first published. For Ngaio Marsh (died 1982) the copyright period will be the same for her first work (A Man lay Dead, 1934) as for her last (Light Thickens, 1982). Her piece about Roderick Alleyn was probably published before her death so the same rule would apply (though for works published posthumously there are different rules).

Re Ngaio Marsh, she was still producing plays by the Canterbury University Drama Society in the 1960s when I was a student there, and I was in the crowd scenes as a Roman for her last production, of Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar.

posted via 202.154.149.1 user hugo.


message 43517 - 05/31/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: Copyright on AR's works
There can be changes to copyright, but in Britain it took a Prime Minister to achieve it. The book in question is "Peter Pan" the gift of the rights by J. M. Barrie to Great Ormond Street Hospital for children has proved to be "a significant source of income". The rights should have expired in 1987, fifty years after Barrie's death, but a change to the Copyright Designs & Patent Act ensured that in the UK the hospital will always continue to enjoy the income. If you want to find out more, go on the hospital website (www.gosh.org/about-us/peter-pan/copyright

posted via 86.157.210.139 user Paul_Crisp.

message 43515 - 05/31/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Copyright on AR's works
I had heard that copyright is 'renewed' when a work is republished, hence the new editions of S&A out a few years ago will overrride the "70 years from author's death" rule. Can any experts say if this is correct?

Apparently, this is why Disney remasters their films every so often, and makes a shiny new case for them. Gotta keep the copyright going ad infinitum in each country they distribute to!
posted via 86.163.162.89 user Magnus.


message 43514 - 05/30/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Copyright on AR's works
Thanks Adam. I don't expect to be around by then....
posted via 124.171.211.235 user mikefield.
message 43513 - 05/30/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Copyright on AR's works
Copyright law is very complicated and also varies between different legal jurisdictions.

In the United Kingdom, the basic rule for literary works such as books or plays etc. is 70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the death of the author or last surviving author in the case of multiple authors, occurs. So Arthur Ransome's work will be out of copyright in the UK on 1st January 2038. These laws change from time to time so don't make any expensive advance plans for your personally published special edition of Swallows and Amazons until nearer the date.

posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 43512 - 05/30/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Copyright on AR's works
This thread is prompted by comments on the 'Swallowdale - Explanation' thread below.

I'd like some information from someone in the know about copyright, please. My (sketchy) reading about copyright and the Berne Convention would appear to show that copyright in a written work generally expires 50 years after the author's death.

Does that means that copyright in AR's works will expire in three days' time? Or if not, why not?
posted via 124.171.211.235 user mikefield.


message 43511 - 05/30/17
From: Jock, subject: Re: The 25 greatest fictional girl characters
A great list, even if the Blackett sisters are only placed at no. 14, and they miss out Sally Lockhart, one of my own favourites.

http://pullman.davidficklingbooks.com/publication?pubID=99
posted via 178.43.119.39 user Jock.


message 43510 - 05/30/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Swallowdale - Explanation
For ATR to post Their Own Story would of course require permission from the Arthur Ransome Literary Executors (ARLE) as it is presumably still under copyright and part of AR's Literary Estate.

It is also available in print, as it happens: Their Own Story was published in Christina Hardyment's Arthur Ransome and Captain Flint's Trunk.

Under these circumstances, I don't think it is something they would be comfortable with having us publish at least at the current time.

Dave

posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43509 - 05/30/17
From: John Wilson, subject: The 25 greatest fictional girl characters
An Auckland father and his eldest (11) daughter have rated the 25 greatest girl fictional characters, including the Blackett sisters! Recommended reading includes Swallows and Amazons, Winter Holiday and Coot Club.

They did not include some like Lewis Carrol’s Alice as not enough of a a character in her own right. And the Blackett sisters were No 14, to save you watching the video (and hearing of many I hadn’t heard of!). So the Blackett sisters; Peggy as well as Nancy!


posted via 202.154.149.1 user hugo.
message 43508 - 05/29/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Swallowdale - Explanation
Owen, I'm sure people would love to read your article if you care to post it.

In any case I can't see why ATR wouldn't post Their Own Story verbatim for those who haven't read it, and since I've got it in PDF form I'll ask Dave T. if he'd like to put it up.

Dave, would you care to put it up? :-)

In the short term, I've put Their Own Story on my own website for anyone interested. (If Dave decides to host it on ATR, then I'll take it down again.)
posted via 124.171.211.235 user mikefield.


message 43507 - 05/28/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Swallowdale - Explanation
Thanks to both Owen and Mike Field for reminding me of the obvious places I should have had a look at first!

I think it was actually seeing it in the book so taking me by surprise that did it!
posted via 95.150.76.111 user MTD.


message 43506 - 05/28/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Swallowdale - Explanation

Count me as "interested", please.

Alex

posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43505 - 05/28/17
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Re: Swallowdale - Explanation
For those who were members of TARS, I wrote an article on this topic in 2007. These pages appeared in the 1st, 2nd and I think 3rd impressions. They disappeared thereafter.
This was all tied up with AR wanting readers to buy books in chronological order, an idea that was firmly sat on by Cape.
SD was a mess from the date point of view, I suspect AR lost track of the dates through his constant redrafts and pressure to complete in time for the novel to be published by Christmas. There were also many references to PD although the novel was published after SD.
Perhaps, if anyone is interested, I could republish the article on ATR. Although out of courtesy I would want to let TARS/MM know that I was so doing.

posted via 143.159.28.254 user OwenRoberts.
message 43504 - 05/28/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Swallowdale - Explanation
I seem to remember that Hugh Brogan quoted it. Anyhow, I've kept a copy from somewhere. I'll be happy to scan it if anyone wants it.
posted via 124.171.211.235 user mikefield.
message 43503 - 05/28/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Swallowdale - Explanation
Thanks Dave, where I should have looked!
posted via 95.150.76.111 user MTD.
message 43502 - 05/28/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Swallowdale - Explanation

VERY cool!

Is there a copy of that Author's Note floating around that I might have a look at it? My 1932, fourth impression, doesn't have it.

Alex

posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43501 - 05/28/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions

And there are many reasons to not buy a Kindle! ;-)

Alex
posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43500 - 05/28/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Swallowdale - Explanation
According to Wayne Hammond's Bibliography of AR, that note was in the first edition (1931) (referenced as "the author's note") bur later omitted. It didn't appear in the first U.S. edition (1932).
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43499 - 05/28/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Swallowdale - Explanation
I recently acquired a copy of SD from August 1932, my previously oldest copy was from 1936. I was surprised to see a page before the book proper begins entitled

FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT READ
"SWALLOWS AND AMAZONS"

which explains the circumstance of SA and the creation of the PD story on the wherry in Norfolk.

Does anyone know if AR wrote this, or if he insisted on its inclusion? I've not seen it in any other edition.
posted via 95.150.76.111 user MTD.


message 43498 - 05/26/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
Ah. You might well be right at that, Alex. I know that that was one of my reasons for not buying a Kindle, anyway....
posted via 124.171.211.235 user mikefield.
message 43497 - 05/26/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
Yes, the Kindle can run anything you like --*IF* you convert it to .mobi. So can any e-reader --Nook, Kobo, etc.-- run anything you like, so long as you convert it to a file format it understands. (I think the exception to this is .pdf, which most e-readers can run innately.) That's what your "free bit of software" is doing: converting a file to a format your e-reader can read. And yes, they're generally wonderful and easy to use. My personal favorite, of those bits of software, is Calibre (also free), since I can use it to edit the ebook at the same time. Potentially, I could even use Calibre to add in the missing ML postscript.

IIRC, the exceptions to this conversion system are ebooks that have embedded DRM. Typically, those cannot be converted from one format to another --since unlicensed modification or distribution is the entire point of DRM. Now my understanding is that DRM is relatively easy to circumvent, so some freeware may be able to manage the conversion despite the DRM, but that isn't something I play about with or know anything about.

Alex

posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43496 - 05/25/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
The Kindle can load anything you like, if you run it through a free bit of software first. I've taken all sorts of file formats, from other 'locked down' ebook publishers, run them through a (legal) converter, and transferred them to my Kindle with the USB cable.

No fancy knowledge required.

The one I use is at the link below. There may be others that are better.

posted via 81.156.113.180 user Magnus.
message 43495 - 05/25/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions

IIRC, it was that Amazon sold all their ebooks in .azw, which is .mobi with DRM (much to the annoyance of publishers, the retailer is who enables DRM), and only the Kindle can read .azw. So (initially) to read ebooks bought on Amazon, you need a Kindle, and if you bought a Kindle, and built a nice .azw-format library, it is with Kindle that you are stuck.

Alex

posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43494 - 05/25/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
... except that I think Kindle originally only used its own format because it hoped people would therefore have to buy its e-book readers or not read anything much. What an invitation to the competition.

I myself have a Kobo and everything I want to read, whether on the reader or on the computer, I either download directly in EPUB format or download in HTML and convert.
posted via 124.171.196.222 user mikefield.


message 43493 - 05/25/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions

Ebook sales have been flattening dramatically over the last couple years --this has been quite the subject of discussion amongst writers and publishers-- so a decision may have been made at Godine, based on the sales performance of the earlier books, to not release the later books as ebooks.

Alex


posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43492 - 05/25/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions

Pretty much every publisher releases their ebooks for both Kindle (.mobi, .azw) and Nook, etc. (.epub). Doing otherwise would limit their potential market.

Alex


posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43491 - 05/25/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
For quite a while they didn't have the rights to publish some of the later books at all, though I guess now they have done all of them? This could be related to that earlier issue.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43490 - 05/24/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
They've been out for a few years; I really need to write Godine and ask why they don't make the rest of the series available on ebook.
posted via 164.39.226.33 user Jon.
message 43489 - 05/24/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
Words are fine; images of course are still the scans; since Godine uses the JC as their basis they look OK too.
posted via 164.39.226.33 user Jon.
message 43488 - 05/24/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
Kobo uses epub format so I assume that they now publish in several different formats.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43487 - 05/24/17
From: d, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
So are they .mobi (Kindle format)? Or is RH publishing multiple e-formats?
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43486 - 05/24/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
My ebooks were bought in Canada from Kobo and are published by Random House, who are now owners of Jonathan Cape.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43485 - 05/23/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
Adam, do you have the Kindle editions or the Godine? I would guess Kindle since you have the ML flaw but it would be really curious if the Godine books have the same problem. That's assuming ML is available in the Godine releases of course, which I don't know.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43484 - 05/22/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions

How do the US ebooks look, in terms of good reproductions from the printed version? A lot of times an e-publisher will just scan a printed version and use OCR to transition the text to .epub. This is a far cry from ideal.

And then there are publishers who omit the postscript of ML... (Ugh!)

Alex


posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43483 - 05/22/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
I recently found myself with a surfeit of Chapters gift cards a few months ago so decided to splurge on the complete set of ebooks for my Kobo to go with my Puffin paperbacks and my Cape hardbacks.
I just checked and the Missee Lee postscript is still missing from my version too.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43482 - 05/22/17
From: dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
Thanks, Jon, I didn't realize that; did this happen recently?

I managed to get the entire set of British editions a few years ago (but I had to be in the U.K. and another couple of hoops to do it) thanks to Rob Boden.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43481 - 05/21/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
In the US, SA, SD, WH, PD, WD and PM are available in epub through Barnes & Noble Nook. To get the rest of them available in the US, I guess we need to badger David Godine (whose brand is on the US ebook editions).
posted via 195.162.103.82 user Jon.
message 43480 - 05/21/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
Are the ARs available as ebooks? I know they weren't for quite a while.

Yes, there's aa authorized set available from Amazon.co.uk for the Kindle. The transfer editing was a little sloppy (there's an awful omission of the postscript of Missee Lee (the paragraph following THE END) starting with "Well, not quite the end. ...") unless it's been corrected in the last couple of years.

I don't know of any editions in other e-formats.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43479 - 05/21/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
I'm glad Magnus said that, about the paperbacks being so big. My sense was that the Capes weren't that thick, but not having Puffins to measure against, I decided I must be delusional. The Capes aren't that much thicker than the Godines --and hardbacks are so much nicer!

This is embarassing: I have both a Kindle and a Nook (I use them to test-run different formats of my own writing) and didn't even think of them. Which tells you what I think of them as a reading experience!

Are the ARs available as ebooks? I know they weren't for quite a while.

I don't currently have a solar set-up, but it's on my wish list, so I can keep the computer charged and, thus, keep writing while I'm out sailing. Maybe, if I do get set up that way, an e-reader would be the most practical option, even if it doesn't have the same appeal as a real book.

Nah. When I'm fog-bound, I want a book.

And I agree with Mike Dennis, that sometimes it's good to make a choice and limit selections. The ones I listed are my favorites; the companions I'd want along on a cruise.

Using my sister as a lending library is a clever idea, but I'd rather be self-contained, and not bound to visiting any given port.

Again, thank you all.

Alex


posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43478 - 05/20/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
I'm not sure it would be heresy, but it just isn't the same as reading a physical book, the interaction with the pages and so on.

Yes, e-readers can store a huge number but better to have to make some proper choices. On occasions, even from AR's twelve, it makes us choose one or two in preference to others.
posted via 95.149.130.83 user MTD.


message 43477 - 05/19/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
You could have a lending library with your sister mailing different editions to and from ports of call.
posted via 184.151.37.19 user rlcossar.
message 43476 - 05/19/17
From: Patrick Fox, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
Would it be heresy to suggest a Kindle? Plus a solar charger, since I imagine you won't have power on board. I've found a solar to USB charger very effective at keeping phones etc charged on several small boat cruising / camping trips, and a B&W kindle is much less demanding on power.

Cheers
Patrick
posted via 185.58.164.43 user PJF.


message 43475 - 05/19/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
The new editions are ENORMOUS compared to the old ones. A 2015 paperback is thicker than a 1930s hardback! I don't know if it was a deliberate choice by the publisher to make the books look good value for money. I think it is the margins which do it. And the slightly larger type.

Of course kids books are expected to be longer these days. I laugh when I compare the Narnia stories to the final Harry Potter or The Hunger Games etc. 1cm or less has grown to 3 or 5cm!


posted via 81.156.113.180 user Magnus.


message 43474 - 05/18/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
Thank you all.

As much as I love hardbound, I agree that a more sacrificial (I hate applying that word to a book!) paperback would be the way to go, for use aboard the boat.

From the dimensions you've all given me, it sounds like I need to dig around for a couple of the Puffin edition. My sister has a set, and I'll be seeing her this next week. I'll bring a set of calipers to make sure of the thickness --that should startle her!

Alex


posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43473 - 05/18/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Colouring Illustrations
I was brought up not to deface books, so it never occurred to me to colour in the pictures in the SA series. Now of course, with photocopying facilities being run of the mill, children could well enjoy colouring in enlarged AR drawings. And why not?
posted via 88.110.83.219 user Mike_Jones.
message 43472 - 05/18/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
I have seven of the books in Puffin, bought in the early or middle 1980s. They are about 7+1/8" tall (varying by a millimetre or so) by about 4+3/8" (varying similarly) by about 7/8" thick.

My one Red Fox, Swallowdale, is just under 7" tall by again about 4+3/8" by 1+1/4" thick.


posted via 109.180.195.92 user eclrh.


message 43471 - 05/18/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Colouring Illustrations
Yes, Amazon Publications did an S&A Colouring Book in 2005. It was called Vol.1 with a view to a second one for the Broads. But it sold very sluggishly, and we eventually in 2015 reduced the price (cheaper by the dozen) to clear the shelf space. All gone now, but I was able to get one last year as a present for a young friend in Australia. A great success, too!
It's worth quoting the blurb:
Many of us who read the Swallows and Amazons books as children took crayons or paints and coloured our favourite illustrations. Perhaps others, who would have liked to do so, did not try for fear of spoiling their books. Sharp-eyed viewers of the Ransome Remembered video will have spotted that the Altounyan children coloured their pictures too.
With permission from the Literary Executors we have reproduced twelve pages of illustrations for you to colour or simply frame. We would like to make it clear that the choice is not that of the Amazon Publications team. Instead we went to two young Tars, and have listened to their advice.
Do you remember the wonderful colourists who brought the Rupert Bear Annuals to life? Here is your chance to follow their example. Pencil crayons, watercolours, felt pens - the choice is yours.

I periodically come across copies with crayon colouring; nothing as good as the "Russell Lodge" water colours. But those pictures are crying out for the reader to join in.
posted via 82.145.211.214 user awhakim.
message 43470 - 05/18/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Colouring Illustrations
You may recall that the covers of the old Puffin paperback series had AR drawings which had been professionally coloured in. On the whole I liked these, except that for some reason on both the Big Six and Picts & Martyrs covers Dorothea was shown wearing a lurid pink frock. On the Pigeon Post cover, Susan and Titty were also shown in pink frocks. Why the artist didn't simply use white, I don't know.
posted via 31.51.45.174 user Peter_H.
message 43469 - 05/17/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
First thought Alex, without even measuring the various volumes, is the Puffin editions from the 1960s and 1970s.
posted via 95.146.184.162 user MTD.
message 43468 - 05/17/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Colouring Illustrations
When I was nine I was given a copy of Elleston Trevor's 'The Island of the Pines' for Christmas -- a wonderful book that I read at one sitting after lunch on Christmas Day. (Along with AR's books this is one all my all-time favourites, reread every couple of years.) The book has literally dozens of b&w full-page and in-text illustrations, and I made it my early mission in life to colour them all in with my 'Lakeland' pencils. (That's the AR connection.)

Looking at them 60+ years later, I can't pretend they're beautifully done. But I don't think they're too bad, and I know I had an awful lot of fun doing them....

[ Image ]

posted via 124.171.196.222 user mikefield.


message 43467 - 05/17/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
I think paperbacks would be a better way for you to go, Alex. Keep the good hard-covers for use on land. I've had the full Red Fox paperback set for years, along with my Jonathan Cape series hard-covers. The downside of paperbacks is that the illustrations are pretty small and smudgy.

My Red Foxes are 7" x 4 1/4", and the thickest is probably 'Swallowdale' at 1 1/2". BookFinder indicates that AbeBooks has used copies of 'S&A' for $US1 plus postage, and if all the titles are available that way you could get the whole set for a pretty modest outlay.

Moreover, if you want decoration for a bulkhead, you might consider one of my maps, laminated, to go with them. :-)

posted via 124.171.196.222 user mikefield.
message 43466 - 05/17/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Overall Dimensions of Different Editions
Here's a question for the collectors: what are the outside (overall) dimensions of the different editions of the books? For instance, Godine's edition is 8" x 5-1/2". Ideally I'd like to know the thicknesses of S&A and WDMTGTS, too --again, Godine's are 15/16" each.

I ask because I'm putting together a small, stuck-at-anchor-in-the-fog fiction library to have with me on my very small boat for a multi-month cruise I'm planning in the next few years. My sloop is only 19', so space is extremely limited, and precedence must be given to coast pilot, cruising guide, etc., thus I'm wondering which AR edition has the smallest footprint. At the moment, I'm looking at only taking my two favorites, S&A and WDMTGTS, together with a few other favorites (Racundra's First Cruise, The Day's Work/Many Inventions, collected Saki, collected O.Henry, Three Men In A Boat).

In some ways thickness is more of a concern, since I'm more limited by length of bookshelf than height (9" max) or depth 6-1/2"). So while the Puffin Edition softcovers are smaller footprints (standard mass market paperback), they may be thicker.

I have Godine and Cape editions on my shelf, but I don't have a Puffin close at hand, and I know nothing of the Vintage Classics, RedFox, or the different Random House editions. And there may be others who, by going with lighter paper or denser/smaller type, are what I ought to be looking for.

Any thoughts?

Alex


posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43465 - 05/16/17
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Re: Coloured Illustrations
My daughter was a fanatic colour of book illustrations. I used to take the book into work and make decent copies on parchment paper for her use.
I think TARS through Amazon Publications, used to and maybe still do, a colouring book of some Lakeland illustrations taken from the books.
Did see in a second-hand book shop a copy of S&A, where the chapter header – which repeat up to four times – had all been coloured but the main illustrations left uncoloured. It looked attractive and perhaps I should have purchased it.
Overall, unless the book edition is rare, well executed colouring can add something tote book and even more so if it is done by a faly member

posted via 143.159.28.254 user OwenRoberts.
message 43464 - 05/16/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Coloured Illustrations
I agree Alex about colouring in books, and these were a surprise (I've seen editions for sale on e-bay where some poor colouring in is presented as an advantage!)
posted via 2.28.231.176 user MTD.
message 43463 - 05/16/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Coloured Illustrations
I don't at all approve of coloring in the books, but those *are* surprisingly good. Especially the one of Tom sailing home.

This is borderline heresy, given that they're AR's illustrations, but what would a colored-illustration edition be like? Looking at the other books on my shelf, I don't really envision something like Howard Pyle or N.C. Wyeth plates. Are there illustrators out there who could do the works justice?

Alex
posted via 24.17.137.201 user Pitsligo.


message 43462 - 05/16/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Coloured Illustrations
Recently I acquired a 1st edition of CC, one of the main reasons for me trying to get 1st editions of the twelve is the quality of the illustrations.

When I looked through this copy two of the illustrations had been coloured in what appears to be either water-colours or basic children's paints. Surprisingly, whoever carried it out did quite a good job. You can see each of them at these addresses -

http://www.the-russell-lodge.co.uk/images/cccoloured01.jpg

http://www.the-russell-lodge.co.uk/images/cccoloured02.jpg

(My thanks to the owners of Russell Lodge to let me use their Webspace to store the images.)
posted via 2.28.231.176 user MTD.


message 43461 - 05/16/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Lottie blossom 1 looking for new owner.
Oh, I agree with you Ross. However, I was thinking about the suggestion that the NBT adopt Ragged Robin. I am sure that the NBT has very linited resources with which to maintain Nancy, and would not want to 'Bite off more than they could chew'. I was trying to point out that it is not just the purchase price which has to be considered, but the ongoing maintenance, which is not cheap.
David
posted via 110.144.119.183 user David.
message 43460 - 05/15/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Lottie blossom 1 looking for new owner.
Every hobby has a cost.
posted via 184.151.37.107 user rlcossar.
message 43459 - 05/15/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Lottie blossom 1 looking for new owner.
The problem with adopting a beautiful and well-cared-for yacht is that you also adopt the ongoing and recurrent maintenance expenses. As if the eye-watering cost of antifouling paint wasn't enough, the cost of mooring/marina and insurance is sure to bring on cardiac problems! How do I know this? Don't ask!
David
posted via 110.144.119.183 user David.
message 43458 - 05/14/17
From: Andy, subject: Re: Lottie blossom 1 looking for new owner.
£15000. If only my lottery ticket had worked... is this possibly an option for the Nancy Blackett Trust?

Andy
posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.


message 43457 - 05/12/17
From: Ted_Evans, subject: Lottie blossom 1 looking for new owner.
Lottie Blossom 1 (aka Ragged Robin III), Hillyard 6 tonner, owned by Arthur & Evgenia in 1952, is for sale due to age and infirmity of current owners.

She is in excellent condition, fully equipped for cruising overseas.

See link for details of construction, inventory etc


[ Image ]

posted via 2.103.26.190 user Ted_Evans.


message 43456 - 05/09/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: The Amazons 2017
Thanks Paul. I'd noticed a BBC report about them -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-39817430

and wondered if there was an AR connection.

Interesting they chose 'The Amazons' and not 'The Swallows'!
posted via 2.28.82.25 user MTD.


message 43455 - 05/09/17
From: Andy, subject: Re: AR Betting Club
:)

I'm looking forward to horses called 'Trotsky's Secretary', 'Death and Glory' and 'Jolys Tin-Trumpet'. Hopefully all riding in the Outlaw Stakes at Norwich.
posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.


message 43454 - 05/09/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: The Amazons 2017
Whilst in Suffolk at the weekend, I picked up the latest edition of ‘Bounce’, which describes itself as East Anglia’s leading independent lifestyle magazine. The cover picture was of a group called The Amazons. According to the article about them, they “are tipped to be one of 2017’s biggest breakthrough rock acts”. They release an eponymous debut album later this month (you can hear some of it on their website) and have had a recent tour. When asked why they chose the name The Amazons, the reply was “There’s a book by Arthur Ransome called ‘Swallows and Amazons’; it was a movie set in the Lake District in the 1920s – it’s the most inoffensive, bordering on dull, super not rock n roll book.”

Good luck to them; I quite enjoyed the track I heard from their website. Their tour takes them around Europe and then to Japan and South Korea.When they are in Exeter I might send my son to hear them and gain his opinion - he is nearer their age! You may well know of them already, but if, like me, you didn’t, remember folks, you heard of them here first!

Oh yes, and unlike the ancient warrior race and the crew of ‘Amazon’ they’re all male.

posted via 86.144.170.253 user Paul_Crisp.


message 43453 - 05/07/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: AR Betting Club
Following our success in the Grand National, bets were placed today on a horse called "Mr Lupton" in the 2.55 race at Newmarket. It won at 10-1. (Arthur Lupton was a nephew of Arthur Ransome.)
posted via 81.132.174.53 user Peter_H.
message 43452 - 05/06/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Search Question for Ed Kiser
I've just realised another literary connection is in the Harry Potter books. The explanation of the term is most interesting...I think AR would have approved!
posted via 81.156.112.7 user Magnus.
message 43451 - 05/04/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: Search Question for Ed Kiser
Curiously, the political meaning came up in Double Jeopardy today, asking about the "Never Blaine" Republicans in 1884.
posted via 73.173.62.89 user Jon.
message 43450 - 05/03/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: 2017 Appeal for funding TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Thank you to everyone who has contributed to the Appeal so far. We have raised enough money to cover next year's expenses. If you donated, you will be getting an individual acknowledgement.
The links on TarBoard and All Things Ransome will stay active for the next two weeks for anyone else. Donations can be accepted at any time by going to the link below.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43449 - 05/02/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Search Question for Ed Kiser
"Muggle-Wump" is used in Roald Dahl's book The Twits. That is the only literary connection I can think of.

Much better reading than anything even slightly political.

posted via 81.156.112.7 user Magnus.
message 43448 - 05/01/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Search Question for Ed Kiser
Yes, Boris did go to Eton.
posted via 88.110.70.198 user Mike_Jones.
message 43447 - 05/01/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Search Question for Ed Kiser
I think Boris went to Eton. By a supreme irony, some years ago our TV ran a play about his youth at Oxford, and filmed it at Harrow School.
posted via 141.0.14.145 user awhakim.
message 43446 - 05/01/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Search Question for Ed Kiser
I couldn't get that either, perhaps as Johnson went to such a school (I don't know where he went) he wouldn't read books that featured them.
posted via 95.146.63.150 user MTD.
message 43445 - 05/01/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Search Question for Ed Kiser
Since Hogwarts is a sort of Eton (albeit for girls as well as boys), I fail to see how Johnson could have been too posh for it.
posted via 88.110.70.198 user Mike_Jones.
message 43444 - 04/30/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Search Question for Ed Kiser
The original letter writer in the 'i' commented that Johnson was of course too old to have picked it up from Rowling (and too posh!), so it seems to some that AR's books are for the 'posh'.
posted via 95.146.63.129 user MTD.
message 43443 - 04/30/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Search Question for Ed Kiser
Many thanks Ed. Such a great resource for us all!

Your search confirms what I already suspected.
posted via 95.146.63.129 user MTD.


message 43442 - 04/30/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: Search Question for Ed Kiser
Since the word's Algonquin in origin (title of a tribal leader), and used (historically) in American politics, I'd be surprised if it was used anywhere in The Twelve. I wouldn't be surprised if AR knew the word, but I could only (remotely) imagine it being used (by Capt. Flint) in ML or GN. The letter-writer must have been engaging in "Alternative Facts" :{)#
posted via 73.173.62.89 user Jon.
message 43441 - 04/30/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Search Question for Ed Kiser
Strictly irrelevant on this forum, but according to chapter 4 of the first Harry Potter book, one of Albus Dumbledore's titles is Supreme Mugwump, International Confederation of Wizards.
posted via 109.180.74.119 user eclrh.
message 43440 - 04/30/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Search Question for Ed Kiser
"MUGWUMP" - Scan produced NOTHING. "MUG" - plenty of tea drunk from a MUG. If that word is in any of those twelve books, I would love to hear about that, as it would mean that I have a TYPO and did not spell it right, so my search would not have found it. Tried "WUMP" and again, nothing.

Thanks for asking me to run this search. Glad my collection of TXT files can be of good use.

Typing them in was a Labour of Love, a delightful re-visit with my childhood playmates, who now, some 75 years later, help me to stay young as I return to those adventures of my childhood.

I was easily hooked. First of all, there was a MAP in the front, a map frequently referenced until memorized. Then there were those first three words:

"Roger, aged seven,..."

My Dad's name was ROGER, so that was familiar. I was also SEVEN years old, and quickly identified with Roger. He was my personal representative. I was him, or, he was me - we did things together. I was able to be a part of the group.

They were Good Friends to grow up with. I am grateful they were there for me.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43439 - 04/30/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Search Question for Ed Kiser
Ed - as you may know here in the UK we have an election coming up in June, and the word 'mugwump' has been used and much argument over its meaning and origin.

In the 'i' newspaper a letter was published claiming that our Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson, only knew the word as he was 'posh' and read Arthur Ransome books in his childhood.

So Ed, could you search your database and find out if AR ever used the word?
posted via 95.146.63.129 user MTD.


message 43438 - 04/25/17
From: Duncan, subject: Re: 1974 film 40th Anniversary Edition - Aspect Ratio
I hadn't noticed that - will have to look back at it.

What I did notice is that the picture is wonderful. You can see so much that I've never seen before. And there are some likeable little extras too.
posted via 212.219.3.100 user Duncan.


message 43437 - 04/24/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: 1974 film, Aspect Ratio - it's more complicated!
I was completely lost by your film comments on all the ratios etc.. but it was like reading a physics textbook for the first time and wondering if it would ever make sense. A few pictures would help.

I have taken a scan of the instruction book for my TV. I'm afraid that's the best I can offer.

posted via 141.0.14.147 user awhakim.
message 43436 - 04/23/17
From: Allan_Lang, subject: Re: Movie "The Eagle"
To draw the coincidence out. There was a better, faithful production of Eagle of the 9th in the 70s (BBC TV 1977) which was completely satisfying.

Not the least, Marcus discarding the guise of stoic Roman centurion for that of the ebullient Greek quacksalver The Great Demetrius of Alexandria, Inventor of the Invincible Anodyne, the premier treatment for sore eyes (and yes that is how he always introduces himself, despite Esca's efforts to restraint the overacting)
posted via 101.178.163.14 user Allan_Lang.


message 43435 - 04/22/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: 1974 film, Aspect Ratio - it's more complicated!
I was completely lost by your film comments on all the ratios etc.. but it was like reading a physics textbook for the first time and wondering if it would ever make sense. A few pictures would help.

I remember reading Sutcliff as a young boy -- I remember the book was about a young slave boy? But I could be wrong.

If you are going to the Lake District have fun -- drive carefully the roads are narrow and the hospital is probably outside the golden rule
posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.


message 43434 - 04/22/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: 1974 film, Aspect Ratio - it's more complicated!
I have played my video tape version on my TV. It sets automatically to 'wide', which distorts everything sideways to fill the screen. But if I set the TV ratio to 1.66:1, it shows perfectly, with of course black edges. Is this impossible to achieve with your Blu-Ray?
The tape was the 'double bill' of The Railway Children and S & A.
posted via 141.0.15.33 user awhakim.
message 43433 - 04/22/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: 2014 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
Noticing that the film The Eagle, starring Channng Tatum as Marcus Flavius Aquila, is on UK TV later today, I am reminded that AR is not the only children's author to suffer at be hands of film-makers; Rosemary Sutcliff is also a victim, as are devotees of her The Eagle of the Ninth.
posted via 92.18.219.95 user Mike_Jones.
message 43432 - 04/22/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: 2014 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
Noticing that the film The Eagle, starring Channng Tatum as Marcus Flavius Aquila, is on UK TV later today, I am reminded that AR is not the only children's author to suffer at be hands of film-makers; Rosemary Sutcliff is also a victim, as are devotees of her The Eagle of the Ninth.
posted via 92.18.219.95 user Mike_Jones.
message 43431 - 04/21/17
From: John Richardson, subject: 1974 film, Aspect Ratio - it's more complicated!
OK, just setting off for Holly Howe!

The aspect ratio problem is not quite as I've set out above. The film seems to have been shot at 1.66:1 - so already less widescreen than a 16:9 TV. So that would explain why one ends up with black bars left and right rather than top and bottom.

I'd still question why they chose to lose so much top and bottom by zooming in further than required. And then, comparing it with earlier DVD releases, those are different again: in those, the film appears additionally, to have been squashed.

I'll post again when I've sorted out exactly what's happened.... hopefully linking to some example stills from each version.
posted via 80.5.128.85 user Cantabrigian.


message 43430 - 04/20/17
From: John Richardson, subject: 1974 film 40th Anniversary Edition - Aspect Ratio
Going up to the Lakes for a long weekend, and staying at Holly Howe. Thought I'd take the 1974 film with me, to continue the initiation of a friend into all things Ransome - (she's been very good and read S&A and Swallowdale already....)

So ordered the Blu-Ray of the 40th Anniversary edition which claims to have been 'digitally restored'.

I don't want to be entirely negative: the film itself is, of course, as faithful and charming as ever, and it's great to see it in such high resolution for the first time. And in widescreen - almost - and here comes the rub...

...BUT: The film plays at full screen on a 16:9 1080p TV. This means it's playing at an aspect ratio of 1.78 - i.e. with no black bars top and bottom. Since it was shot in the (usual) cinema AR of 1.66 this means it's been cropped left and right...

...except it's WORSE: Comparing it with an old VHS I have, which had been panned and scanned for broadcast on TV back in the days when they were all 4:3, the Blu-ray (and presumably DVD) on this addition has ALSO lost content top and bottom.

It looks very like someone has taken a copy which had already been pan & scanned (i.e. cropped left and right) for 4:3 display, and then zoomed a 16:9 rectangle into that to return it to widescreen format - i.e. cropped it again (top and bottom).

And THEN, because presumably they could see they were losing so much, they didn't dare to push it to full wide-screen 16:9 (and lose even more top and bottom) and so have left it with (admittedly quite small) black bars left and right.

Nonetheless, this is absolutely the WORST of all possible combinations of choices. Insult is added to injury by the fact that the blu-ray box states the AR to be 1.66:1 - i.e. as originally shot for cinema. Which it palpably isn't!

Has anyone else noticed this, or have more information? It seems such a pity. I wonder if there is now anyway to see the film as originally shot (short of persuading a cinema to screen a print that hasn't been mucked around with)?

Despite all this I'm sure the blu-ray will enhance a weekend at Holly Howe, but Jibbooms and Bobstays - who were the tame galoots who arsed up the Blu-ray authoring to such an extent?

DUFFERS. You should be DROWNED. Or hanged in chains at Execution Dock. The only reason you won't be is we're all too nice around here.
posted via 80.5.128.85 user Cantabrigian.


message 43429 - 04/16/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: A New Jemmerling?
Sounds like the fellow Hulme was actually acting very Dick-as-Big-Six-ish, stalking the guy and building a case. That's an accomplishment on its own.

*Very* much a pity that it was a suspended sentence. I'd have much rather seen a couple hundred hours of community service, at the very least.

Alex
posted via 24.17.138.45 user Pitsligo.


message 43428 - 04/16/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: A New Jemmerling?
Indeed. Rather a pity it was only a suspended sentence, I thought.
posted via 124.171.148.51 user mikefield.
message 43427 - 04/15/17
From: Ross, subject: A New Jemmerling?
A story from Britain about a butterfly collector. Where was Dick when he was needed?

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-friday-edition-1.4071260/british-ex-bodybuilder-convicted-of-killing-rare-butterfly-1.4068416
posted via 184.151.36.184 user rlcossar.


message 43426 - 04/15/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Dot
'Take my camel dear,' said my aunt Dot, as she climbed down from this animal on her return from High Mass.

Rose Macauley

(Seen on Lakeland Cam today
posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.


message 43425 - 04/13/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: 2017 Appeal for funding TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Supported
posted via 184.151.37.224 user rlcossar.
message 43424 - 04/12/17
From: dave Thewlis, subject: A new book about women pirates
Just published at the beginning of this month. Here's a Smithsonian article - an interview with the author and a link to the book on Amazon:

The Swashbuckling History of Women Pirates
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43423 - 04/12/17
From: Peter Wagner, subject: Re: 2017 Appeal for funding TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Done. Thanks for all your efforts. Keep up the good work.

posted via 94.250.228.202 user PeterW.
message 43422 - 04/12/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: 2017 Appeal for funding TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Done. Worth every piece of eight!
posted via 88.110.73.4 user Mike_Jones.
message 43421 - 04/11/17
From: Allan_Lang, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
Quite possible for Ted and Mary to meet before, or even during, the early years of WW1. There were 9 cruisers on the Australian station in 1910. These had reduced to 4 in 1914, plus another 3 forming the New Zealand Division of the RN.

Less likely during WWI.
There were 9 Cruisers on the Australian Station in 1910, but they had all returned to England by 1913 (or would never return, being scrapped in Australia)

The 4 cruisers in Australian waters in 1914 (The Australia Station was transferred to RAN control in 1911, and phased out in 1913) were 2 new "Town" Class Australian cruisers HMAS Sydney & Melbourne, "Challenger" Class HMAS Encounter and "Perlorus" class HMAS Pioneer (both transferred to Australia in 1914).
The NZ Ships were 2 more "Pelorus": Psyche & Pyramus and the NZ operated "Pearl" class Philomel (as a training ship)

Now Ted could have been a "loaner" RN officer to Australia or New Zealand, but all those ships were scrapped in Australia after 1918, and only three made it out of the Indian or Pacific during the war.
Philomel, which served the early war years in the Mediterranean.
Sydney & Melbourne, which didn't reach English waters until late 1916, which is getting perilously close to John's presumed conception.

All in all, I favour a prewar meeting
posted via 101.178.163.206 user Allan_Lang.


message 43420 - 04/11/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
" since Adam was in short pants" Oh, I am sure its been longer than that, I am really not that old.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43419 - 04/11/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
Quite possible for Ted and Mary to meet before, or even during, the early years of WW1. There were 9 cruisers on the Australian station in 1910. These had reduced to 4 in 1914, plus another 3 forming the New Zealand Division of the RN.

I know we think of ships and their crews being fully employed in wartime, but they still spent a lot of time in port undergoing routine maintenance and allowing plenty of shore-going opportunities for the officers and men.
posted via 86.150.244.36 user MartinH.


message 43418 - 04/10/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: 2017 Appeal for funding TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Done! And I echo Mike Field.
posted via 95.146.63.38 user MTD.
message 43417 - 04/10/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Bob Blackett was Captain Flint's Age
I had in mind the "candle-grease incident" in SD where Titty hears that the Great-Aunt "made mother cry" and Jim said "Bob would have liked them as they are". I think that Molly and Bob would both get the blame for their wild girls. Though if the Blackett family was local, they might have been mentioned occasionally in other books as they would be uncles or aunts to the Amazons? But perhaps one uncle was enough.


posted via 203.96.138.35 user hugo.


message 43416 - 04/10/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: 2017 Appeal for funding TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Done. And thanks to Adam and everyone else concerned for their ongoing work in keeping these sites running for us.
posted via 124.171.148.51 user mikefield.
message 43415 - 04/10/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
"...since Adam was in short pants"

Short fig-leaves?

(Sorry.)
posted via 124.171.148.51 user mikefield.


message 43414 - 04/10/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
With Germany holding a large colony in New Guinea, I would be very surprised if there were no RN activity around our shores. Also, Fremantle has been a strong RAN base, serving the Indian Ocean, since Adam was in short pants.
posted via 121.213.0.220 user David.
message 43413 - 04/10/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
Perhaps Mary's father was working in England and had brought his family over (some sort of post at the High Commission?). They stayed when war broke out and the dashing young First Lieutenant saw her as good breeding material at a thé dansant at the Ritz. Such a good breeder that after five children Ted's only hope of effective birth control was a posting to Hong Kong.
posted via 88.110.73.4 user Mike_Jones.
message 43412 - 04/10/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Bob Blackett was Captain Flint's Age
Perhaps when Molly married Bob she "married beneath her" into a family that was not in the local gentry, and this was the reason for the Great-Aunt’s disapproval of Bob?

Sorry if I'm forgetting something obvious but do the books say the GA disapproved of Bob?
posted via 109.180.74.119 user eclrh.


message 43411 - 04/10/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: 2017 Appeal for funding TarBoard and All Things Ransome
Last year we were able to use our saved funds to avoid asking TarBoard and All Things Ransome users to contribute. However, we have used up our reserves and so we must come back and ask for your financial assistance again this year.
We are holding a limited time appeal for funds to maintain our All Things Ransome and TarBoard website domains alive and to pay the operating expenses to our website hosting service while still leaving us with a reserve to cover any future payments. Our accounts are available for inspection on the All Things Ransome site.
This year we are again asking you to generously donate a few pounds, dollars, or any other currency to keep the bank accounts topped up so we can keep All Things Ransome and TarBoard going.
Once more we are using PayPal this allows you to pay over the internet through your PayPal account or by credit card through PayPal. There are no additional fees to you, the site is secure and we will not keep any records of your details to maintain your privacy. To make a payment, please use this Appeal link which can also be found on the All Things Ransome site and the main page of TarBoard.
Contributions to the All Things Ransome Association in furtherance of its goals are welcome; please note however that the Association is not tax-exempt or a charitable organization in any jurisdiction.


posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43410 - 04/09/17
From: Allan_Lang, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
That may have been me, but my conclusion was it made Mary almost a decade older, on the basis that AFAIK there were no RN ships visiting Australia during the war years.
But John was clearly born during WWI, so a postwar marriage is out.
Which leaves Ted serving on a RN Cruiser on the Australia Station between 1905 (when the last one arrived) and 1910-1913 (during which time they gradually returned to England).
That leads to an 18 year old Mary meeting and marrying Ted in Sydney during that period. (Later is not possible as c.1914 Ted will be too busy to go camping with Mary before John is born.)
posted via 101.178.163.14 user Allan_Lang.
message 43409 - 04/09/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Bob Blackett was Captain Flint's Age
Re Bob Blackett and the suggestion that Bob was a school friend of Jim; Mrs Swainson says of the Walkers (SD9) "who are the others ..... they don’t look to me like Blacketts, nor yet like Turners" implying that Bob Blackett was from a local family.

Perhaps when Molly married Bob she "married beneath her" into a family that was not in the local gentry, and this was the reason for the Great-Aunt’s disapproval of Bob? I have a couple of examples several generations back in my family; one marrying the family maid and another remarrying to the family groom.
posted via 202.154.149.211 user hugo.


message 43408 - 04/09/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: 2016 Movie
I have wondered (though not when I read it first!) what else John and Nancy discussed when they went off to investigate Leading Lights (SA11)! But although the "elders" in the later books would be well into their teens, the "brats" (to use the term in WH) were not, and the last book GN is largely about the younger ones in the shore party, particularly Dick and Roger!

Even if there were what the local library calls YA or Young Adult books in the thirties, I don’t think child readers of the series would have wanted the later ones to become YA books about the four "elders" (John & Susan plus Nancy & Peggy).

posted via 202.154.149.211 user hugo.


message 43407 - 04/08/17
From: Jock, subject: Conflicting objectives (was: Ransome, Shanties and Piracy by the BBC)
I understand that Eshkeri and Lewis have now entered into into a post hoc financial arrangement, though, sadly, Lewis's name will not be added to the credits. Yes, I agree with you completely about the music in the 1974 film.

Moving on to the the 2016 film. I found it very difficult to watch end to end, because there were so many times when I just wanted to stop, not because the story departed so much from the original, but because, again and again, the film seemed to be diverging from the spirit of Ransome's book. In the end I did seeing the film in its entirety, but only by seeing it in three or four separate sessions.

There is a good review of the 2016 film on the video blog Projector which I thought was very even-handed.

posted via 178.43.129.84 user Jock.
message 43406 - 04/08/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Ransome, Shanties and Piracy by the BBC
A propos of this, 'Grammarly' has just issued a piece about what to do if your work is plagiarised. (I don't know how relevant the strategies might be in this case.)
posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.
message 43405 - 04/08/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Ransome, Shanties and Piracy by the BBC
Well, I don't know whether I was listening to the Sailor's Prayer on that clip you linked to or not, but I'm afraid I wasn't impressed by it, or at least by the arrangement. If the part of that little snatch I listened to is typical of the music in the rest of the film, then I guess that's another reason I'm not sorry to not have seen it.

Compare that music of Eshkeri's (plagiarised or not, which is another issue) with the music -- and especially its use of shanties -- composed by Wilfred Josephs for the 1974 version.

posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.
message 43404 - 04/08/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
To obtain possible evidence for Ted Walker's age I have checked at what age a number of officers who would have been his approximate contemporaries were promoted Captain.
Phillip Vian 40
Bernard Warburton-Lee 40
Lord Mountbatten 37
Andrew Cunningham 37
Henry Harwood 41
Frederick Wake-Walker 41

The first four I picked because they all had reputations as destroyer officers and Ted was serving in a destroyer in Malta (as a Commander in Command?)

As both Mouthbatten and Cunningham were high fliers, who were both ultimately made First Sea Lord, it looks as if 40 was an approximate age for officers to be promoted Captain during the "between the Wars" period. This would be his approximate age at the time of WD and SW, giving a birth date of 1892 give or take a year or so.

This does raise the question of what post Captain Walker would be taking up. The main Naval establishment in the area was the Boys Training establishment, HMS Ganges, but that would have been under the command of a fairly senior Captain. Could he have been in a post planning potential sites for wartime bases in the event of hostilities? Coastal forces were based around several of the Essex estuaries and the RN Patrol Service depot established at a holiday camp in Great Yarmouth.
posted via 109.150.85.9 user MartinH.


message 43403 - 04/08/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Grand National entry
"Didn't I tell you?" (Pigeon Post, p. 160)
posted via 81.132.174.125 user Peter_H.
message 43402 - 04/08/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Grand National entry
Congratulations to the Tarboard tipster. Arthur's horse won!
posted via 141.0.14.217 user awhakim.
message 43401 - 04/08/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
...there is no reason to assume she's that young; if they met in Australia, it's unlikely there'd be more than a couple of years difference in their ages.

It could be that Ted and Mary met in England. Perhaps she returned to UK to England for some reason; possibly family or educational.

I believe the RN frowned on junior officers marrying too soon.

That was the case. I think the suggestion was that officers should not marry until they were senior Lieutenants. Knowing how poor the pay scales were most probably could not afford a wife and family!

posted via 109.150.85.9 user MartinH.


message 43400 - 04/07/17
From: Jock, subject: Ransome, Shanties and Piracy by the BBC
Ransome's references to sea shanties kindled my lifetime interest in the subject. In 1992, I came across the Polish sea shanty group, the Cztery Refy, in Swanage of all places! I discovered that, while in England sea shanties are usually sung in the back rooms of pubs, in Poland shanties are listened to by hundreds (and sometimes thousands) of people who attend shanty concerts and festivals all around the country.

Ransome's friend, John Masefield, played an important role in the process whereby the shanty did not die, but evolved and moved from the deck of a ship to the floor of a pub or concert hall.

In 1996, I acted as the Refy's minder at the International Festival of the Sea in Bristol, which was attended by some 100 artists from all over the world. Here, I had the privilege of meeting the remarkable ex Royal Navy submariner and shantyman Tom Lewis, an acquaintance that was renewed in Poland at the Iława shanty festival a few months later.

Imagine my amazement to discover that Ilan Eshkeri, the composer of the music to the new S&A film, 'borrowed' Tom's Sailor's Prayer and that this 'borrowing' took place without any credit to Tom whatsoever.

posted via 178.43.134.91 user Jock.
message 43399 - 04/07/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
For that matter, does that scenario --Bob as Jim's friend, marrying Jim's sister-- parallel a fantasy AR might have had with the Collingwoods, thus placing Nancy and Peggy in the position of AR's fantasy, might-have-been daughters?

And yes, that's impossibly wild speculation, but since the thought occured to me...

Alex
posted via 24.17.138.45 user Pitsligo.


message 43398 - 04/07/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
"Molly & Jim Turner and Bob Blackett climbed the Matterhorn in 1901 (SD). Jim would then have been been 11 or so if born in 1890 but I thought perhaps the Turners and Bob were then somewhat older, perhaps teenagers?"

I suppose I always imagined that Bob and Jim were school friends. Bob came home with Jim on holiday, where Jim introduced him to his sister, Molly, who was enough of a tomboy to join them on their Matterhorn Expedition (Nancy and Peggy must have gotten it from both sides) --and things progressed from there.

Might that push everyone's ages up a few years, which would fit more with Commander Walker's career?

Could the Oxford boat race clues be shuffled around to make that fit?

Alex
posted via 24.17.138.45 user Pitsligo.


message 43397 - 04/07/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
Ted Walker is a Commander in WD. And the likely youngest during SA for Mary Walker may be 32-34, but there is no reason to assume she's that young; if they met in Australia, it's unlikely there'd be more than a couple of years difference in their ages. And he certainly wouldn't have been on his first cruise when they were married. I believe the RN frowned on junior officers marrying too soon.
posted via 73.173.62.89 user Jon.
message 43396 - 04/07/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
Re Captain Flint’s age, Molly & Jim Turner and Bob Blackett climbed the Matterhorn in 1901 (SD). Jim would then have been been 11 or so if born in 1890 but I thought perhaps the Turners and Bob were then somewhat older, perhaps teenagers?

And there are no clues as to who is the older, Molly or Jim? Probably Molly?

John Walker is supposed to be about 12, so Mary could be 32 to 34. But Ted Walker who is a Commodore or Captain is rather older than Mary.

posted via 203.96.134.67 user hugo.


message 43395 - 04/06/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
National Union of Journalists. I used to be a member. Some of them were a bit weird.
posted via 81.132.174.125 user Peter_H.
message 43394 - 04/06/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
I would put Mrs Walker at about 32 to 34 based on marriage age and children - did someone not once say cold have met when UK Fleet in Australia?

On Beatles help Album the semaphore spells NUJ - weird stuff
posted via 165.91.13.72 user Mcneacail.


message 43393 - 04/05/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Captain Flint's Age
I *like* that bit of deduction!

As I see it, that age fits well with his general demeanor, too.

Alex
posted via 24.17.138.45 user Pitsligo.


message 43392 - 04/05/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: Donald Campbell anniversary
Thank you for posting this and the link to Stanford's Blue Bird. I had not heard it since singing it at school. His Magnificat in G was always a favourite to sing in the days when I had a voice!

Only noted your posting today when looking back for something. Did actually remember the 50th of Donald Campbell, and the BBC News film; was interested to see how the children's programme 'Blue Peter' covered it as they were following Campbell's attempt and had had him on the programme shortly beforehand.

posted via 86.144.212.136 user Paul_Crisp.


message 43391 - 04/05/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Captain Flint's Age
For the sake of something to do I have been pondering on Captain Flint’s age. Of course this is not given in the books, but looking for clues, the only ones I could find were: carving Ben Gunn’s name more than thirty years previously, and Oxford winning the Boat Race when CF grabbed a policeman’s helmet and got himself arrested.

The name was probably carved prior to 1901, memories of exact dates in childhood can be unreliable, but it could be the same year they climbed the Matterhorn. Is it reasonable to think of CF as ten in that year, but perhaps younger?

Oxford won the Boat Race in 1905, and then annually from 1909 to 13. If the information in ML is taken as correct, then CF was up during at least one of those years. 1905 seems too early, so 1909 onwards could be a good bet.

As CF “chucked Oxford before Oxford made up its mind to chuck him”, he probably left at the end of his first or second year, possibly after very poor exam results. So he could have gone up in 1907 or as late as 1912. The later dates seem less likely based on his carving and mountain climbing dates.

Based on this flimsy evidence I suggest that Master James Turner was born in 1890, give or take a year. Placing his age as about 40 in S&A.

posted via 109.150.85.9 user MartinH.


message 43390 - 04/03/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Susan - Nurse or Torturer?
Scarum, not sacrum! The curse of predictive text!
posted via 88.110.86.69 user Mike_Jones.
message 43389 - 04/02/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Susan - Nurse or Torturer?
As AR points out somewhere, it was because of Susan's reliability that the Swallows were allowed to go off alone and have their adventures. Her treatment of burns and scalds would have accorded with AR's understanding of what that treatment should be.

Mrs Blackett appears to have had a lot less faith in her harum-sacrum daughters.
posted via 88.110.86.69 user Mike_Jones.


message 43388 - 04/02/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Susan - Nurse or Torturer?
As AR points out somewhere, it was because of Susan's reliability that the Swallows were allowed to go off alone and have their adventures. Her treatment of burns and scalds would have accorded with AR's understanding of what that treatment should be.

Mrs Blackett appears to have had a lot less faith in her harum-sacrum daughters.
posted via 88.110.86.69 user Mike_Jones.


message 43387 - 04/02/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Cambridge Bias Due To ML
I think Miss Lee and her father had been salting money away in Swiss bank accounts over the years, and when things turned Maoist in China she turned up in Europe and bought Beckfoot.

The marmalade always predisposed me in favour of Oxford, though it's not actually why I ended up there. Oh, and OUP had a great range of children's books.
posted via 88.110.86.69 user Mike_Jones.


message 43386 - 04/02/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Cambridge Bias Due To ML
It must be that I'm afraid of the school mistress image! She might put me in detention!

I always felt slightly sorry for Missee Lee, denied the opportunity to follow her scholarly ambitions and having to return as a reluctant pirate.
posted via 109.155.179.201 user MartinH.


message 43385 - 04/02/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Cambridge Bias Due To ML
WHAT?! This is precisely the reason I cheer for Oxford! I would rather align myself with Captain Flint than Missee Lee. I still see her an an 'enemy'.
posted via 81.156.112.7 user Magnus.
message 43384 - 04/02/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Cambridge Bias Due To ML
I've just been watching the Oxford v Cambridge University boat races, and, as usual, I was cheering for Cambridge. Having attended neither university I can think of no other good reason for this than indoctrination by Missee Lee all those years ago.
posted via 109.155.179.201 user MartinH.
message 43383 - 04/02/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
It seems clear from SA chapter XVI, The Birthday Party, that the two mothers had met for the first time when Mrs. Blackett called on Mrs. Walker at Jacksons farm. Mrs. W describes Mrs. B as jolly, another element missing from the new film.
posted via 88.110.86.69 user Mike_Jones.
message 43382 - 04/02/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Grand National entry
The Grand National race takes place next Saturday (8 April), and one of the fancied horses is called 'One For Arthur', trained by Peter Scudamore and currently 14-1. Worth a small flutter? Grab a chance . . .
posted via 81.132.174.125 user Peter_H.
message 43381 - 04/02/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
I'd forgotten about that!

I do wonder if AR had trouble with what to do with his characters when they got older, the plots would need more than just sailing and camping.
posted via 95.146.184.239 user MTD.


message 43380 - 04/02/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
Seems a reasonable theory, I've always wondered if the Walker and Blackett/Tuner adults knew each other before the children met.
posted via 95.146.184.239 user MTD.
message 43379 - 04/02/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Susan - Nurse or Torturer?
Standard treatement in my childhood in the 1960s, though I always thought it strange and would make more sense to use something cold!
posted via 95.146.184.239 user MTD.
message 43378 - 04/01/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
A Jim and Mary episode could rank with he missing chapter from GN, in which John and Nancy go off for the day together.
posted via 88.110.86.69 user Mike_Jones.
message 43377 - 04/01/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Susan - Nurse or Torturer?
According to the Dermatology Clinic at UAMS, it is very important to immediately cool the skin after receiving a burn. This helps stop the damage from the burning process. Putting butter or other greasy ointments on a burn may actually make things worse, since the grease will slow the release of heat from the skin. This causes more damage from the retained heat.

The best way to release heat from the skin is with cool water. Ice and ice water are too harsh and may further aggravate already damaged skin. Cool water helps to gently remove heat from the area.

To learn more about the personalized care provided by our doctors using state-of-the-art equipment and technology, please visit our medical services section.
posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.


message 43376 - 04/01/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Susan - Nurse or Torturer?
The idea of dunking people in salt water after burns dates from the Battle of Britain when I believe they noticed that pilots who were burnt did better if dunked in the channel instead of landed in Hampstead, nothing against Hampstead - not likely to drown except in the tea.

Although in MASH - the US Doctors ally against the UK dr who gave everyone a grain of morphine and a cuppa.

OS grid reference TQ265855
London borough
Camden
Ceremonial county Greater London
Region
London
Country England
Sovereign state United Kingdom
Post town LONDON
Postcode district NW3
Dialling code 020
Police Metropolitan
Fire London
Ambulance London
EU Parliament London
UK Parliament
Hampstead and Kilburn
London Assembly
Barnet and Camde
posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.


message 43375 - 04/01/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
One does just wonder: a fancy-free Jim Turner in his houseboat and the lively Australian Mary Walker with her husband on the other side of the world.

WASH YOUR MOUTH OUT WITH VEGEMITE LEFT IN THE SUN FOR 3 WEEKS IN THE DESERT
posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.


message 43374 - 04/01/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: Susan - Nurse or Torturer?
Remember, too, that Mother told Titty (in SA, as Man Friday),
“Weren’t you scalded?” said Robinson Crusoe.
“Badly,” said Man Friday, “but I buttered the places that hurt most.”

posted via 69.140.32.156 user Jon.
message 43373 - 04/01/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Susan - Nurse or Torturer?
I believe that was the "correct" treatment for minor burns back in the day. Nowadays it is recognised that cold water on a burn is the best treatment.

Another bit of medical misinformation comes in Winter Holiday when the doctor recommends that you rub frostbite with snow.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 43372 - 04/01/17
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Susan - Nurse or Torturer?
Having just listened to PP, and hearing again Susan advise Roger to put butter on a burn, it got me wondering: Is that good medical advice? Wouldn't Roger be frying himself? Are there any other examples of Susan's perhaps dubious medical tips?
posted via 86.152.148.207 user Tiss_Flower.
message 43371 - 03/30/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: DVD regional codes re 2016 S&A movie
PG is a strange category. On Tuesday my 5 and 8 year old grandchildren enjoyed (more than I did) two PG films: SA and Beauty and the Beast. I suppose they both had happy endings!
posted via 88.110.81.30 user Mike_Jones.
message 43370 - 03/30/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: DVD regional codes re 2016 S&A movie
Mine, bought in the UK, specifies: 'Region 2'

Incidentally, I see that it also has the BBFC 'PG' symbols, i.e. that Parental Guidance is needed for viewing by a child under 12, and a warning of "mild threat, infrequent mild violence".
posted via 81.132.174.125 user Peter_H.


message 43369 - 03/30/17
From: John Wilson, subject: DVD regional codes re 2016 S&A movie
Re playing DVDs the problem is the DVD zoning (not the format), designed with new-release films in mind. North America (US & Canada) is Region 1 while (Western) Europe is Region 2 etc; some DVDS are multi-zone sometimes called Region 0. You can convert DVD players to multizone. In New Zealand DVD players are (legally) advertised and sold as multizone, and when we got a player which was not multizone some years ago the retailer sent it back to the Auckland distributor for modifying (DVD players and similar items here are generally Japanese brands though possibly made in Malaysia or Thailand etc). While Oz, NZ and Latin America are Region 4, most DVDs sold here are American or British (some of the BBC DVDs of Dad’s Army I have are labelled on the back “Regions 2 + 4”). Can someone say what zones the 2016 S&A movie is for; generally low down on the back of the case).


posted via 203.96.143.54 user hugo.
message 43368 - 03/30/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
See my comments on DVD zoning (as new subject).
posted via 203.96.143.54 user hugo.
message 43367 - 03/29/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
I still want to see the new movie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've decided to approach it like Peter Duck or Missee Lee as a great made up tale created by the adventure loving kids as an adventure story on the lake.
posted via 184.151.37.97 user rlcossar.


message 43366 - 03/29/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
I wasn't denying Captain Flint his needs, just remarking on the parallel being drawn with AR.

One does just wonder: a fancy-free Jim Turner in his houseboat and the lively Australian Mary Walker with her husband on the other side of the world.
posted via 88.110.81.30 user Mike_Jones.


message 43365 - 03/29/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
One cannot expect Capn Flint to be a monk - one assumes that he had his needs met to use an old English expression.

Mrs Blackett and the girls were terrible - any mother and 2 daughters from a competent English Boarding School Upper form would have been better speakers


posted via 128.194.94.56 user Mcneacail.


message 43364 - 03/29/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
One cannot expect Capn Flint to be a monk - one assumes that he had his needs met to use an old English expression.

Mrs Blackett and the girls were terrible - any mother and 2 daughters from a competent English Boarding School Upper form would have been better speakers


posted via 128.194.94.56 user Mcneacail.


message 43363 - 03/28/17
From: Mike Jpnes, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
Only one piece of duff casting? I would add Mrs. Blackett to the list for the new film, which I played on DVD for the grandchildren this morning, at their request.

I get more irritated each time I see it, though I liked the shopkeeper's insinuation that Captain Flint might have a woman in Leningrad; presumably the scriptwriter had done some research into AR's personal life.

At least it was a less deafening experience than Beauty and the Beast in the cinema this afternoon.
posted via 88.110.83.219 user Mike_Jones.


message 43362 - 03/28/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
John – I agree. A tradition seems to have developed whereby every attempt at a Swallows & Amazons film contains a really duff piece of casting. In the 1974 film (in other respects excellent) it was Ronald Fraser. This time it is Kelly Macdonald. The next filmed attempt is due in 2058 and who will it be? One of the very few compensations of no longer being alive is that I personally will not have to sit through it!
posted via 81.132.174.125 user Peter_H.
message 43361 - 03/28/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
Ed:

I got the S and A DVD fro England, you cannot play it in a DVD player, but a computer will play it ok. I watched it without trouble on a Dell Computer.

It was quite cheap from Amazon UK - less than taking my daughters to a movie.

My real bully beef is the Scottish Writer made the mother Scottish - there are many female Australian Actors in the UK who could have played that part with more verve and style than the actor used. One is not supposed to use a word like Frump on this august board so I shall not, but...

John

posted via 128.194.94.53 user Mcneacail.


message 43360 - 03/27/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
Alan - How well I remember that TV link to permit me to "BE THERE" and never leave Florida. My mode of speech was intentionally kept free of certain heavy local dialect in view of who that audience was. I have done broadcasting on the radio in my younger days, working my way through college, and the guide there was "sound like Walter Cronkite" as that was hopefully a General American dialect, suitable for non-USA ears. I am glad you folks were able to understand me enough to get by, as hopefully that was my deliberate intent.

As for the DVD, for some fantastic reason, a DVD that works in England does not necessarily work in the USA. This S&A movie is a British product, available in the British DVD, but as for it ever making it across The Pond to be available in USA compatible format DVD, perhaps that is a long wait.

British Adult actors, I can hear and understand them, such as "FOLYE'S WAR" (an excellent police mystery TV series) It is the YOUNGER set like in Harry Potter and now in S&A that fail to land properly on my ears.

The version I was watching was on YOUTUBE, and as someone pointed out, it was probably an illegal copy, with poor reproduction of the sound which would garble the words even more. I did see a TRAILER version on YOUTUBE, and it being official, that sound seemed to be proper, and glory be, I was ABLE to HEAR them considerably better (if not perfectly). The lost of understanding therefore I believe to be the poor quality of the sound reproduction, but, that is all I had access to. My VCR cassette tape (this goes back quite some years) of the 1974 version was quite understandable for the most part. Meanwhile, this new S&A is just not within my grasp. Humph...
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43359 - 03/27/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
The problem may be modern sloppy acting.

In many ways, it may be modern, better acting. Although I always thought that Nancy would be more likely to used middle class "received pronunciation" than the regional accent she appears (from the trailer) to have been given in the film.

As for rapid cross-cutting, that's the modern fashion. It probably started in Hollywood.

Maybe in Hollywood, but really, I suspect that it's from TV and video games. For contemporary children, not for the likes of us.
posted via 90.254.43.134 user PeterC.


message 43358 - 03/27/17
From: Harry Miller, subject: Re: Bohemia in London
Thanks Andy. I agree. The passage is pure Ransome and the painting is perfect.
posted via 70.54.140.153 user dreadnaught.
message 43357 - 03/27/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
I've now had a look at my DVD, and Ed, you're quite right. The sound quality is very poor, and most characters are doing 'regional' accents, which makes it more difficult. But my 'official' DVD does have subtitles.
posted via 141.0.15.35 user awhakim.
message 43356 - 03/26/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: 2014 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
Ed, Where did you access the newest version? Was it in a movie theater?
posted via 184.151.63.226 user rlcossar.
message 43355 - 03/26/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: 2016 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
"Separated by a common language." But Ed, when you addressed the TARS Literary Weekend audience by video link, we had no difficulty understanding you. The problem may be modern sloppy acting.
I have the official DVD, but haven't watched it yet. Obviously time to get it out and see what it's like. As for rapid cross-cutting, that's the modern fashion. It probably started in Hollywood.
posted via 141.0.15.35 user awhakim.
message 43354 - 03/25/17
From: Jock, subject: Re: 2014 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
Ed, Do you mean the 2016 "Swallows and Amazons"? When I saw this, I had many problems with the new film.

The transfer to YouTube is technically incompetent and, illegal to boot.

I have seen the film courtesy of iTunes, Apple's platform for selling digital content. The sound is somewhat better than on YouTube. The other problems remain.

Time to reread the book!
posted via 178.43.117.5 user Jock.


message 43353 - 03/25/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: 2014 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
1974 version of S&A movie was quite understandable. The sound quality of the latest version just "swallowed" the sounds to the level of just noise, with an occasional word slipping by as understandable. Maybe ENGLISH as spoken in the Mother Country has shifted that far during these past few decades. When the 1974 version first came out, I was able to obtain a video TAPE to play on my VCR in a mode compatible with US requirements. That tape is to me a precious possession.

Perhaps the process of transferring the video from one medium to another caused the quality of the sound to become a bit damaged. I saw a YOUTUBE version. This problem did not seem to hurt the 1974 version on YOUTUBE however. The sound this time seemed to be just a NOISE, and it is quite natural to say that "A NOISE ANNOYS".

I also noticed in this new version that the camera action was very much UP CLOSE with very brief snap shifting quickly to the next glimpse. I was seemingly always shifting my point of view to the next point of interest, without the time it takes to discover just what that point might be, only to have the scene flip again. It was irritating. In real life, we quite often have out eyes flicking back at forth, from one point of interest to another with only brief moments on any one point, but for the camera to act like my eye movement was tiresome and irritating. I'll not be making the mistake of trying to view this new version any time soon. Much better to go read the book. That has always been a delightful experience.
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43352 - 03/25/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: 2014 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
Ed, have you seen the 1974 movie of S&A? Were you able to understand that? I haven't seen the new one so I can't do an actual comparison, but it could well be that the 1974 movie holds closer to "BBC" english which isn't terribly difficult for most Americans to understand. If you haven't seen the 1974 version yet, there's a link to it on YouTube from the Media Vault page in All Things Ransome.

Dave Thewlis
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43351 - 03/24/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: 2014 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
Sorry 'bout that, I got the gentleman's name incorrectly spelled, as it should have been "GABRIEL WOOLF" - mea culpa. I have all twelve of his recordings, both the early set of cassette tapes, and then a later issue of CD recordings, a valuable part of my Ransome collection. I especially enjoyed his rendition of certain local dialects, like Jacky, or the Eelman, or the Scots in GN?. But all quite understandable. Maybe it is the difference between his words, the words of an adult, and the dialect spoken by the children in S&A.
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.
message 43350 - 03/24/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: 2014 Movie "Swallows and Amazons"
Being an American, living in Kentucky, I was delighted to finally find an access to view the Movie of S&A 2014. Eager to finally get to see it, I found there was a problem similar to watching the HARRY POTTER movies, in that I only caught a word or two here and there, but mainly, was unable to understand the Accent the characters used, as being so unfamiliar to my own Southern American Dialect. HARRY POTTER on DVD gave me SUBTITLES in ENGLISH, so I was finally able to understand what was happening, but with no convenient translations into ENGLISH, I finally just had to give up on watching S&A as not being able to comprehend their words. If this comes out on DVD, and it has to be the AMERICAN style of DVD encoding, then maybe that will have ENGLISH subtitles, and then I can follow the events. Until such becomes available, and that may be never, I will just have to let this one slide on by, unviewed. Not happy about this, but the words spoken, especially by the children, are just not received. I got left out on this one, much to my disappointment. Harry Potter saved me by giving me subtitles; will S&A eventually do the same? "...a common people, separated only by our common language." Heard that somewhere... Now I understand. It is apparently not all that common after all, but at least, HERE on this Forum, we have the written word, not bothering with differences in pronunciation. I tried to watch, but it just did not work for me. Yet the spoken Ransome books by Wolfe seem to be quite comprehensible and a pleasure to experience.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]

posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43349 - 03/23/17
From: Andy, subject: Bohemia in London
I'm re-reading this (I've an October 1907 American edition) and loved the bit on coffee-stalls: it's so Ransome.

"There is something gypsyish about coffee-stalls, something very delightful. Since those days I've known many ... but there is none I have loved so well as this small untidy box on the Embankment. That was a joyous night when for the first time the keeper of the stall recognised my face and honoured me with talk as a regular customer. More famous men have seldom made me prouder. It meant something, this vanity of being able to add "Evening, Bill!" to my order of coffee and cake. Coffee and cake cost a penny each and are very good. The coffee is not too hot to drink, and the cake would satisfy an ogre."

...Or a Roger, I suppose.

But here's a thing: the Japanese artist mentioned later in the book is Yoshio Markino. And here's his painting of a (the?) coffee-stall, on the Embankment, dating to about the same time.

I'd like to think it's not a coincidence.

Andy
posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.


message 43348 - 03/21/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Islands Re: Not as thought/remembered
Ling Holme is far bigger than I envisage Cormorant Island. A small rocky island with a couple of bleached trees on it (from the cormorant droppings).
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43347 - 03/20/17
From: Duncan, subject: Re: Not as thought/remembered
That's the island that the Altounyans called Cormorant Island. But it's tiny. I don't think it's that much like the description. Most people seemed to think it was Silver Holme on Windermere (which is nothing like Cormorant Island now, but used to be less wooded when the cormorants lived there. I've often wondered about Ling Holme (but only because I'm obsessed with Wild Cat Island being Ramp Holme!!) Obviously that would have needed to be less wooded too! (This picture is Ling Holme by the way)

[ Image ]

posted via 212.219.3.8 user Duncan.


message 43346 - 03/20/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: Not as thought/remembered
That's because it's on Coniston, just South of Peel Island. Went right by it on the Swallows and Amazons cruise.
posted via 69.140.32.156 user Jon.
message 43345 - 03/20/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Not as thought/remembered
Cormorant Island is always an anomaly -- even as a child it struck me as strange and not real.

I do not remember seeing it on my sailing on Windermere.

posted via 165.91.13.85 user Mcneacail.


message 43344 - 03/20/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Not as thought/remembered
Cormorant Island is always an anomaly -- even as a child it struck me as strange and not real.

I do not remember seeing it on my sailing on Windermere.

posted via 165.91.13.85 user Mcneacail.


message 43343 - 03/18/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Not as thought/remembered
Have you re-read a book and discovered that something is not as you had thought it was?

I was checking the passage in S&A when Titty and Roger land on Cormorant Island to search for the "pirates' treasure" and was surprised to find the island was mainly covered in large rocks, and it was difficult to find a safe landing place. It is long time since I read the book, but in my mind Cormorant Island was mainly shingle and small pebbles. I wonder what else I've had wrong all these years?
posted via 81.140.174.146 user MartinH.


message 43342 - 03/08/17
From: David Maxwell, subject: Re: Suzie G. Heel
Thanks to all for the information!
posted via 97.78.238.94 user DavidMaxwell.
message 43341 - 03/08/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Suzie G. Heel
I found a rather sparse genealogy website (which focusses on celebrities) which indicates that Tabitha's daughter from her first marriage to Frederick Lewis, Hazel Vale, was the mother of the author Suzie Heel and the illustrator Sally Stride of the book "Once Upon a Magical Christmas Eve" which has the Ransome relationship on the cover, obviously hoping to cash in.

[ Image ]

posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 43340 - 03/08/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Suzie G. Heel
Tabitha married John Lewis a dockworker in 1934; they had a son and daughter. Tabitha fell out with her father in 1942 when she offered to sell him his library of books (inherited from Ivy), and as he did not reply she sold them to a bookseller for the bargain price of £25. He thought that she should have offered them back to him for free! From I think the 2008 biography "The Last Englishman" by Roland Chambers. Not a happy family relationship.
posted via 202.154.145.35 user hugo.
message 43339 - 03/07/17
From: David Maxwell, subject: Suzie G. Heel
I've found an interesting book by a Suzie Heel, a great granddaughter of Arthur Ransome. Did Tabitha get married and have kids? Maybe I'm just forgetting things now but that does not sound familiar to me. Can someone enlighten me on this?
posted via 97.78.238.94 user DavidMaxwell.
message 43338 - 03/06/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands and two more
Three million cheers! Jolly well done, Dave.
posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.
message 43337 - 03/05/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands and two more
THREE new videos... no idea where that missing "T" got to.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43336 - 03/05/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands and two more
hree new Youtube videos were added to the Media Vault of All Things Ransome today: Britain's Lost Waterlands: Escape to Swallows and Amazons Country; BBC - The Secret Life of Books Series 2 (2015) Part 6: Swallows and Amazons; and the full 1974 film of Swallows and Amazons.

posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43335 - 03/04/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Heading for the Broads district
Ah but did you get any 'suggestions' from George Owdon?
posted via 86.175.120.123 user Peter_H.
message 43334 - 03/04/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: What about Peggy?
I expect Mike Dennis's assessment is probably pretty accurate: AR needed Nancy to have a "sidekick", to showcase Nancy more clearly. Speaking as a writer myself, AR was also right at the limit of how many characters he could juggle, both in terms of keeping the story moving forward at a good pace and in keeping each character distinct within the all-cast scenes (especially writing with a younger audience in mind, where some subtlety of character must often be sacrificed for clarity). I have my thoughts on how he could have done it, to include a more developed Peggy, and perhaps should have done it, but it's easy (and unfair) to criticise when I'm not the one doing the writing.

Just my guess.

It's really too bad; as a character in her own right she has a lot to offer. She --and we, as readers-- got shorted as a lot of potential was ignored or set aside for story clarity. On the other hand, anyone writing S&A fan-fic has Peggy available as an open door into some very good stories.

Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43333 - 03/04/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: What about Peggy?
Good question! It's almost as if AR just needed a contrast to Nancy and nothing more.
posted via 95.149.130.55 user MTD.
message 43332 - 03/04/17
From: Tiss Flower, subject: What about Peggy?
I've always wondered why Peggy never got her moment to shine. She never really emerges from Nancy's shadow, even in WH when she does try to step into her sister's shoes. She seems to be something of an enigma. We know she's capable as she's as good a sailor as Nancy and we know she doesn't like thunderstorms. Otherwise she's the major character we know least about.
posted via 81.132.63.207 user Tiss_Flower.
message 43331 - 03/04/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Rites of Passage: John, Nancy... Dick?
It does seem AR was looking for a way to finish the series, but we know he was running out of ideas. Though CN is interesting it has always struck me as a bit 'forced', whereas GN gave him the chance to end things quite neatly.
posted via 95.149.130.55 user MTD.
message 43330 - 03/04/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Rites of Passage: John, Nancy... Dick?
I remember reading PD and ML as a child and not noticing the 'metafiction' idea, though I was confused by the PD references in SD. It's interesting there is no reference in the other books of how ML came about.

AR was clearly fond of Titty as a character as she does go through a number of events that could be said to be 'life changing'.
posted via 95.149.130.55 user MTD.


message 43329 - 03/03/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Rites of Passage: John, Nancy... Dick?
It's interesting to contemplate this in light of Coots in the North which Ransome started in the summer of 1943. It's unclear whether he eventually ran out of steam on CN by itself or whether Myles North's plot proposal in 1944 that turned into Great Northern? simply derailed CN (and maybe the Gamekeeper book as well?).

Perhaps if AR already had as a goal to find a conslusion for Disk, the the GN plot offered a better opportunity. Still, CN was shaping up to be the ultimate synthesis of the series (or perhaps he was balking at so obvious a completion?)
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43328 - 03/03/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Heading for the Broads district
Very many thanks to Peter Duck, who emailed me privately with a whole host of suggestions. :-)
posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.
message 43327 - 03/03/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Rites of Passage: John, Nancy... Dick?
It is hard for me to comment on this, as the "meta fiction" label on PD, ML and GN was never apparent to me as a child, and I thus find it hard to embrace it now. They are all fiction, and yet so wonderful I don't spend even one second believing it isn't real when I'm reading.

However, I think Alex's ideas have strong merit, with regard to the graduation to adulthood. Maybe it doesn't matter whether it is meta fiction or not.

I wonder if AR set out to make a deliberate choice on this matter, or fell in a natural storytelling habit/pattern through which these sort of plots naturally occur to one?

AR did once say, about writing, "stick in a brat, and the others gain independence at once."

Perhaps it is silly to start hunting around for other 'graduation's, but I couldn't help thinking of Titty's dowsing. She definitely grows up a bit, but not really into an adult. I suppose there are several other similar times in her life: being left alone on the island (nearly calling Mother back), the voodoo wax Great Aunt, the final mapping task in SW... These are all tiny examples of her making herself be more mature. So not a 'graduation', but just a tangent my brain ran away with.
posted via 31.48.241.211 user Magnus.


message 43326 - 03/02/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Rites of Passage: John, Nancy... Dick?
Some very good points Alex.

My feeling is that though GN does allow Dick to make the move towards adulthood (and Titty as well, together in the final pages) the arguments for it being a metafiction along with PD and ML are strong. I do think AR wanted a way of bringing things to a close, and if you ignore some aspects of the plot and even the writing he does so quite effectively.
posted via 95.149.130.55 user MTD.


message 43325 - 03/02/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Rites of Passage: John, Nancy... Dick?
I think it's pretty well accepted that AR wrote WDMTGTS to be John's "graduation" to adulthood, meeting the challenge of taking Goblin across the North Sea. It's quite a rite of passage, and perfectly tailored for John both as we know him *and* as we anticipate his adult career path (in the RN).

In that light, a while back I hypothesized that PM was a similar effort by AR to provide a similar rite of passage for Nancy, as she assumes more of the role and responsibility of a woman in that era and culture. Some people here thought that hypothesis had merit, which pleases me, though I would hardly deem my speculation canon.

Those were both conclusions for the Swallows (particularly John) and the Amazons respectively. Aside from ML (unequivocally fantasy-based), they take much less active roles in the series after their "graduations", leaving the stories driven more by the younger characters and the Ds.

Building on those thoughts, was GN? meant to be yet another of these conclusions for AR? An attempt to give Dick the same sort of "graduation" into adulthood? What would be more relevant for the character than to make an enduring scientific discovery? And yet it had to be in keeping with the accidental/inadvertant nature of the trials in WD and PM and, further, for the sake of plausibility, couldn't be too grand a discovery --something that re-wrote archeology, or minerology, or something that brought Dick (inter)national acclaim. It had to be important but understated; a proof of the character's character and a validation of the character's relevance within their world.

Does GN? fall into is-it-real-or-is-it-Peter-Duck? uncertainty because AR had to walk a fine line between an adventure that was plausible for his young, largely average characters and giving Dick a relevant rite of passage --which, for a scientific discovery, required something beyond what an average youth might experience? It must thus, by its nature, touch on science that will affect a greater sphere than just the characters, and thereby be a story that stretches our willing suspension of disbelief beyond so much of the preceeding series.

So was GN? his conclusion for Dick just as WD was for John and (arguably) PM was for Nancy, and are the elements necessary to that goal why GN? reads a bit more like fantasy?

Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43324 - 02/27/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Heading for the Broads district
... later this year. Also Pin Mill and Secret Water, and catching up with JW of SOS. Anything else we should particularly do/see if we can fit it in?
posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.
message 43323 - 02/21/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Two Lake District TV documentaries
There is also a programme on BBC4 at 21.00 tonight about the South Downs National Park. It could well include something about Chichester Harbour, where AR kept his boat in his later years.
posted via 141.0.14.72 user awhakim.
message 43322 - 02/21/17
From: Jock, subject: Re: Two Lake District TV documentaries
Sadly, dear Auntie's beeb-player only works if you have a UK IP address.
posted via 178.43.129.210 user Jock.
message 43321 - 02/20/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Two Lake District TV documentaries
In the last week or two there have been not one but two separate documentaries about the Lake District on BBC TV, each one hour long.

Life of a Mountain: a year on Blencathra is a sequel to the previous simlar film about Scafell Pike, which I think was discussed on here.

I've forgotten how to put more than one clickable link in a post so you'll have to copy and paste this one:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08f1cc0

The Lake District: A Wild Year also covered a one-year period and focussed on a sheep farm, including the rescue of a cragfast sheep, and some natural history - the programme website is linked below:

posted via 2.31.117.134 user eclrh.
message 43320 - 02/15/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Another famous writing chair is that of Roald Dahl. An ancient old thing, with a hole hacked our for his bent spine, tucked into a cold shed full of knick knacks (just as AR liked), a blanket on his knees and a board on his lap.

I strongly recommend visiting the Roald Dahl museum (Buckinghamshire, UK) if you can. Fascinating for adults and kids.

[ Image ]

posted via 81.156.117.125 user Magnus.


message 43319 - 02/14/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Apparently the chair is in the Harry Ransom Library (the name provides a tenuous connection with AR if anyone's looking for one) at the University of Texas, Austin. I have no idea how it got there. The makers were stated to be J. Foot & Son, who were then at 171 New Bond Street London, and who were in existence from at least 1901 to 1929.

When you say "the mother" do you mean the mother of Deedre, er, Diedre, er, Deidre, er, you know, that girl? :)
posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.


message 43318 - 02/14/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Ah, that takes me back! Them were the days when we had drink and biscuits provided for meetings. Embarrassingly now we point our visitors in the direction of the cafeteria and ask them to purchase their own refreshments.
posted via 86.175.180.84 user MartinH.
message 43317 - 02/14/17
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
In a BBC radio comedy years back, someone applying for the job of pushing a tea-trolley round a government building was asked whether she had the required BSc in Chemical Engineering for the post.

posted via 86.153.140.208 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43316 - 02/14/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
CM's chair -- find out what museum it is in - we can then measure it.

I still think he should have had Kilwillie marry the mother

John
posted via 128.194.94.27 user Mcneacail.


message 43315 - 02/14/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Back in the 1970s, meetings with civil servants in Sanctuary Buildings, Westminster, often began with a discussion of which hot brown drink had been served. The best clue was the time of day.
posted via 92.18.214.192 user Mike_Jones.
message 43314 - 02/13/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Ah well, I'm glad the chair sparked some interest. I think it's a fascinating article myself, I admit. Anyway, here's a larger version of the picture so you can better see how things work. (Sorry Alex, but I don't have the plans.)

[ Image ]

posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.


message 43313 - 02/13/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
I don't know where Mike finds these things, either; he's a gentleman of infinite resource! I also think that it is a thing of wonder, but just a little too upright for my taste. I'll stick to my recliner, thanks.
David
posted via 121.214.35.6 user David.
message 43312 - 02/13/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
The hot drink machines produced a uniformly foul brown liquid - many believed it made no difference whether you pressed 'tea' or 'coffee'.

That reminded me of a well-known line from Douglas Adams:

"He had found a Nutri-Matic machine which had provided him with a plastic cup filled with a liquid that was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea."

posted via 2.31.187.235 user eclrh.


message 43311 - 02/13/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
That chair is insanely awesome!

Where did you find it, and how do I get plans? I need to build myself one.

Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43310 - 02/13/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Crikey - it looks a bit like Old Sparky.

Doesn't it just?

posted via 90.252.185.154 user PeterC.


message 43309 - 02/13/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Crikey - it looks a bit like Old Sparky.
posted via 86.182.41.52 user Peter_H.
message 43308 - 02/13/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands- tea tea tea
Flint -- I was speaking metaphorically -- it is a bad as the 1860's in London

Oh, indeed. I though of it as a splendid conceptual parallel. But not Liptons.
I live in one of the more interesting, liveliest and loveliest bits of London, Peckham (one of the Donald's no-go areas, I think, complete with East End gangster funerals up the road) and it's in Lambeth which in Victorian pre-Bazalgette days was a cholera hot spot, as it drew its water from the Thames directly below the Vauxhall outflow from the City (this is from memory- if anybody wishes to correct the detail, please do).
Now, the water is sweet and cool, much better tasting than it was in the more prosperous South West of London where we used to live.
But I still drink tea from Waitrose Indian Chai bags, with milk, and it reminds me happily of that roadside tea seller in Delhi.
posted via 90.252.185.154 user PeterC.


message 43307 - 02/12/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Seventy-six years now, John. And CM has been gone for forty-five of them.... I have 'Whisky Galore' on tape, and re-watch it regularly.

Here's a photo of his wonderful writing-chair, which will amuse and interest his fans.

[ Image ]

posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.


message 43306 - 02/12/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Flint -- I was speaking metaphorically -- it is a bad as the 1860's in London -- we just kill the children slowly with lead instead of quickly with Cholera. Long live john Snow.

Everything in SA goes better with a cup of tea.

As Ed so wonderful post points to the all consuming presence of iced Tea in the South -- terrible stuff, worse than the worst cup of tea stewed for 2 day and then strained through old socks. Everyone around me drinks it.
Of course most of it is Lipton's Never in the course of human history, has one man made so much money from losing.'

I finished the movie, actually it left me feeling upbeat. The boat scene was interesting - the only funny thing in the end was the slow take off speed -- that was rigged, the rest was suitably scary, although one must remember the boats had a hull speed of about 5 knots. Why the heck did they not borrow two unstayed boats, take 2 phone calls and a couple of quid?

I will watch it again -- I beleive it is the 75th anniverary of the SS Politician. Long live CM.



posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.


message 43305 - 02/11/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Clean water and plumbing (no foul arrows or slings please) is an important consideration at the time and really up to to that point in time and one must say in Flint now.

I'd have thought that at the time, clean water would have been crucial, what with surrounding farming, and the lakes being such convenient sinks for sewage, and tea would have been a solution. As it is now with roadside tea sellers in India, where water borne diseases are very common.
In Delhi, I used to get tea from a roadside seller. He had a clay built charcoal fireplace, always lit, with a metal kettle. He added the milk and sugar before putting it on to boil. He would then pour it into unfired clay cups, which would last just long enough for you to drink the tea, but which would collapse into a lump of clay shortly afterwards, and be added to a pile of waste clay nearby. Result; you were assured that the tea was sterile, and that your actual cup was freshly made and free of contamination from previous customers.
It seemed to work; I drank quite a few cups from the particular seller, and had no gut troubles at all.
Flint's lead contamination wouldn't be be fixed by tea drinking, however.
posted via 90.252.185.154 user PeterC.


message 43304 - 02/10/17
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands now tea
A few thoughts on tea.
No machine that uses plastic cups can produce decent tea. Boiling water either melts the cup or makes it sag badly so that the tea spills. Boiling water proof cups for machines can be produced, but the used to cost £1.53 against £0.02 for the standard plastic cup.
The British Army has always produced foul tea. But if you have just completed a route march with a heavy pack – it seemed like nectar. Legend has it that the tea was laced with bromide to restraint the soldier’s sexual ardour. Milk may well have been cooked with the tea to pasteurise it and prevent an outbreak of TB.
IBM tea made in their London offices, which was made in a warmed teapot with boiling water. They used Lyons Orange Label (does anyone remember this?) tea. No tea bags in the pot – a major plus point.
Nowadays the teabag in a mug has become the standard way of tea making in most offices and many homes. A point of difference is to warm the mug over the kettle spout.
Iced tea without milk has been popular for many years. With lemon or lime it does make an excellent drink in warmer weather. Many people use Earl Grey for this type of tea.
Force cereal was discontinued in 2013 after 112 years of production. I did buy it occasionally for its S&A connections, it was a cornflake type of product and may be reintroduced as manufacturers seek to reduce the amount of sugar, salt and artificial colouring in cereals.

posted via 87.113.133.203 user OwenRoberts.
message 43303 - 02/10/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
I must speak up on behalf of the IBM tea drinkers. Most of us were British, with no pretence of being American. The hot drink machines produced a uniformly foul brown liquid - many believed it made no difference whether you pressed 'tea' or 'coffee'. Surprisingly, this was very popular.
Personally, I hardly ever bought the stuff. I called this saving of expense my tax-free income.
posted via 141.0.14.217 user awhakim.
message 43302 - 02/10/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Boiling water:

Clean water and plumbing (no foul arrows or slings please) is an important consideration at the time and really up to to that point in time and one must say in Flint now.

National Geographic once noted that the Japanese/Chinese workers died at a much lower rate on the railroad construction across America than the Irish - drank tea instead of water.

The latest NG includes a good article on why beer is better than water if you have a contaminated supply and it is impossible to tell contamination until you are sick or dead.

In Oz in the 60's milk and 6 sugars - stuff it - just give me the sugar

Ed - I love your post -- well done old bean.

What is one man's midden is another man's archeological treasure.

John
posted via 128.194.94.60 user Mcneacail.


message 43301 - 02/10/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
British Army, I should have made clear.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43300 - 02/10/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
That's certainly possible. Another data point, I had breakfast once in c. 1962 with a British unit near Hannover on an exercise. Big urns with tea premixed with milk. Perhaps it was an institutional thing.

To this day I like tea with milk (NOT iced tea of course) even though I have always preferred my coffee black
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43299 - 02/09/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Sounds to me Ed as if the IBM people were from the US and trying to be English (in my experience of them it happened quite often!)
posted via 2.31.100.146 user MTD.
message 43298 - 02/09/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
As a child I didn't understand the obsession with tea, but looking back I realise you had to boil the lake water to drink it safely, so you might as well have a cuppa.

Otherwise we'd have the books dealing with constantly boiling water and then leaving it to cool somewhere. Or adding a few drops of bleach.

Finding milk sources is also documented by AR in 'Racundra's First Cruise', and the 'Third' book too.
posted via 81.156.117.125 user Magnus.


message 43297 - 02/09/17
From: Allan_Lang, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
"Sometimes the tea would be used in their cereal "Force" but mostly it was for the tea."

Sounds revolting :)

I seem to recall Susan was slightly shamed of the shortcut of using Force (with milk) rather than making porridge.


posted via 101.178.163.14 user Allan_Lang.


message 43296 - 02/09/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
John - Ed here, enjoying a big glass of tea - Very Cold with ICE made by freezing the tea itself, so the melting does not dilute the drink. It has a twist of lemon to spark the flavor, but I dare not foul the drink with any thought of adding "milk" as that would not be my cup of tea.

In job assignment overseas that took me to London (the IBM offices there) I noticed the drink dispenser in those offices offered only one thing, tea, and the milk came with it with no option to the contrary. I once spoke to one of the IBM gentlemen working there about the tea and asked him why is there milk in this tea, wo which he responded, "To drink tea, without milk, would be terribly uncivilized." Well, that explains that...

It reminded me that in our beloved Ransome stories, it is of primary importance that a local source of milk be found so they could have their tea. Sometimes the tea would be used in their cereal "Force" but mostly it was for the tea. There were a few exceptional moments when for some reason they had to take the tea without the milk, but they seemed to brave through with no loss of life resulting.

Observing this custom was just one of the many rewards of reading Ransome's so very realistic stories. As a reader, I felt I was a part of the party; I was there with them. The language was a bit different, but then that was just part of the adventure, exploring those tid bits of differences in vocabulary and in the spelling.

Some words needed help from the Tarboard members to understand, and I am grateful for their explanations. I never would have understood what "MIDDEN" was without someone's definition. That word was used in describing the GA, as: "Girt auld hen 'at wants to be cock o' t' midden." (PM CH6) There were dialect words, like "YIN" (Jacky talk) meaning "one."

It was a fascinating education I got from those books, and not just how to sail. There are many that can say they learned to sail just from reading these books, and I am glad to among them. Building a campfire, hanging a pot over it, signalling, Never tried guddling for fish, but an interesting idea that is. Tried to use a devining rod but nothing happened. Sigh... At least I tried.

With my daughter living next door, I get to enjoy a "Ransome Moment" when I see a light in a bedroom window, flashing Morse, to which I immediately respond. Oh, there is the cell phone of course, but somehow Morse made it very special. It brings back that magical moment when Nancy happened to see, far away at the northern end of the lake, the flashing of the letters, "NP" and she understood. Now that was communication. When I read that moment, I feel like cheering with both arms raised high, as if celebrating the making of a Touchdown (American Football.) But then, that is what Reading these Stories does; it makes me want to cheer - and give thanks for giving me such delights.

I need to pour more tea into the ice tray to prepare more cubes. This glass here just finished that last lot.

So, to my fellow Ransome world adventurers, I lift my glass and say,

"CHEERS"

Ed Kiser, Kentucky USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43295 - 02/09/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
I agree a nice chap, although I once remember a TARS wife who said :: "Old men who enjoy a nice cup of tea." Or in Ed's case possible gatoraide

John

posted via 165.91.12.98 user Mcneacail.


message 43294 - 02/09/17
From: Jock, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Another documentary, this time by Ben Fogle, covering SA, Coniston, and the making of the first SA film.
posted via 178.43.119.116 user Jock.
message 43293 - 02/08/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Indeed, a thorough gentleman. And his boat Peggy Blackett is almost a dead ringer for Amazon too, so another tick for him. :)
posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.
message 43292 - 02/08/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Also one of AR's Literary Executors and a trustee of the AR Trust.
posted via 141.0.14.219 user awhakim.
message 43291 - 02/08/17
From: Jock, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands- AR locations
Both the cottage and Quay house were raised up in the 1980/90s

...and some time earlier after the 1953 flooding the sea walls were raised and reinforced with concrete slabs. The top end of the creek was cut off by the realigned sea wall.

posted via 178.43.119.116 user Jock.


message 43290 - 02/07/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Geraint Lewis - I met him about 15 years ago at Holly Howe when we stayed for a few days, think a youngish Captain Flint with a wife and a boat.

posted via 165.91.12.11 user Mcneacail.
message 43289 - 02/06/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
Thanks very much Ed, that's a wonderful find -- one which I thoroughly enjoyed.

I also found a half-hour documentary by John Sergeant on YouTube about 'Swallows and Amazons' itself in the BBC's 'Secret Life of Books' series. It contains quite a bit about Ransome himself as well as the book, and includes conversations with Geraint Lewis and Christina Hardyment (with both of whom I'd corresponded but never actually met).

posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.
message 43288 - 02/06/17
From: Jon, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands
My only regret is that they didn't call out more specific places; I think I recognized many of the Lakes and Broads locales, but it'd be nice to be sure.
posted via 69.140.32.156 user Jon.
message 43287 - 02/06/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands- AR locations
Unfortunately Witch's Quay no longer looks how it did in AR's day. Both the cottage and Quay house were raised up in the 1980/90s to protect from flooding which altered the appearance of the cottage in particular.
posted via 95.149.55.173 user MTD.
message 43286 - 02/06/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: Constable Sam
Sammy Lewthwaite the policeman is wrong to blame John for the houseboat burglary (as suggested by Jim Turner) in SA. But he was right about the Amazons being connected with the study burglary in PM; and Nancy says he was “quite good for a policeman” when the GA describes Timothy and Sammy asks how she could be sure of the colours of his clothes in the moonlight. The GA had seen Timothy “loitering” near the house during the day, and says that suspicious characters should be locked up before they carry out any housebreaking!
posted via 203.96.130.39 user hugo.
message 43285 - 02/06/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Britain's Lost Waterlands- AR locations
Click on this link, and sit back, and enjoy the trip to Ransome Land, made to be REAL.

Yes, I saw it on transmission and enjoyed it, although I suspect that as I live in London, the real places are really just down the road.

But I find the best exploration is Google Street View. Not everywhere is covered, of course, but for instance Bank Ground Farm (Holly Howe) and Lanehead (the Collingwood home) are literally neighbours. I never realised that until I "looked" at them. You can imagine AR walking across the intervening field to propose to successive Collingwood daughters. The transformation of Lanehead into a local council centre means you need a bit of imagination to work your way back to the '30s, but it's very doable. And if you look up "Low Ludderburn, Cartmel Fell" you can get to the wiggle in the lane where AR and Evgenia lived while he wrote the earlier books, look into the window of his "office" in the converted barn, see the wooden garage that they built for Rattletrap. It's powerfully evocative.
And actual locations in the stories are best found on the Broads, where the locations are well covered, and at Pin Mill, which has Alma Cottage, the Butt and Oyster and the hard pretty well unchanged from AR's pictures, and to a certain extent Hamford Water, where you can see views around the Wade, and the lane that leads towards Witch's Quay, although not as far as the place itself. It all takes me back.
posted via 90.252.185.154 user PeterC.


message 43284 - 02/05/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Constable Sam
Classed as an act of terrorism - bet the Insurance Co said no

John
posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.


message 43283 - 02/05/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Constable Sam
I can't help but picture the insurance clerk who reads the claim form submitted by the car's owner; "the car was blown up by the police." I'm sure that the police would have to explain to the insurance company, who are know to have no sense of humour when it comes to claims.
David
posted via 120.144.160.247 user David.
message 43282 - 02/05/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Britain's Lost Waterlands
BRITAIN'S LOST WATERLANDS: ESCAPE TO SWALLOWS AND AMAZONS COUNTRY BBC DOCUMENTARY 2016

For the Ransome fan that does not live in England, our chances to see the REAL places where his characters have as a playground are rare and never. You Englanders can view these places in person with a comparative minimum of travel efforts to do so. For that, us foreigners can feel a bit of, well, let's call it "aw shucks..."

For the Lake District Ransome stories, he created an environment that was quite a bit re-arranged from the actual locations in the real world. The places we know and love from his stories may have real places in his mind, but the actual locations did get a bit of shifting. So "the Lake" of Ransome's stories does not really exist but does share some similarities with Coniston and Windemere.

However, in the Broads stories of Coot Club and Big Six, and the North Sea tales of We Didn't Mean To Go To Sea and Secret Water, he managed to maintain a much more realistic "map" that closely resembles the actual geography of the regions.

To us foreigners, it is quite a delight to be able to "visit" (vicariously) these three locations and see the "real" places mentioned in his stories.

Through the magic of the internet, and of video cameras, we now have that chance to "visit" those places that Ransome made so dear to us all. On YOUTUBE, there is a BBC DOCUMENTARY that takes us to all three of these locations to see the REAL thing. As a foreigner (in the USA) I am grateful for this opportunity to get that first hand viewing of the actual places.

Click on this link, and sit back, and enjoy the trip to Ransome Land, made to be REAL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLjkfU1KziY&index=9&list=PLfmDakLYDgMzjztSuegZCfltsssiVPHga

Hope you enjoyed your "trip"...
Ed Kiser, USA, [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43281 - 02/05/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Constable Sam
The incident sounds like something that would happen to Constable Sammy from the SA series.

It was humorous

posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.


message 43280 - 02/05/17
From: andy clayton, subject: Re: Ransome Characters played by actors
Even AR had this problem. He developed the S & A characters in his head and his books, then when he went to visit the Altounyans in Syria, he experienced a terrible clash of fiction and reality which led to a falling out with the family. This is a problem, particularly with children who grow and change so fast, but also with friends who are separated for long periods of time. We have to be prepared to renew the friendship.
posted via 80.189.220.32 user cousin_jack.
message 43279 - 02/04/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Film Thoughts
That's an interesting approach, but I wonder whether the problem is really that SA is actually not the best and most adaptable of the books. I think it was Hugh Brogan who suggested that WH was the first of the series to show AR at his best, but film makers have never seen past the brand value of SA. Even the BBC adaptations of CC and BS were branded Swallows and Amazons for Ever!


posted via 88.110.90.72 user Mike_Jones.


message 43278 - 02/04/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Film Thoughts
I'm re-reading Peter Duck right now and though I have not had the opportunity to see this new film yet I'm wondering if people could accept it more if they looked at it as story created by the children. Peter Duck and even Great Northern (which I consider not a made up story) deal with bad people, violence and even guns. It seems to me it might fit the cannon when viewed this way.

Thoughts?
posted via 184.151.37.150 user rlcossar.


message 43277 - 02/04/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Ransome Characters played by actors
The actor who played Tom Dudgeon, Henry Dimbleby, is the grandson of one of the UK's most famous broadcasters, Richard Dimbleby. As a BBC correspondent, he reported the D Day landings and made the first radio broadcast from Belsen, and went on to a distinguished TV career. Henry's father and uncle are also well known broadcasters, but he has not followed in their footsteps; he is a food columnist and co-founder of a restaurant chain.
posted via 88.110.90.72 user Mike_Jones.
message 43276 - 02/04/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Ransome Characters played by actors
In looking at the movie, "Coot Club," I discovered a few background facts regarding certain actors.

A Hullabaloo, "Jerry," was played by Julian Fellowes, who some years later, was the author of the "Downton Abbey" hit series on TV. As much as I enjoyed that series, I wonder if my delight with it would have been altered by knowing it was written by a Hullabaloo. But really, it wasn't; it was written by the actor who played the role of a Hullabaloo.

The young boy, "Pete," was played by Jake Coppard, who died in 1986 at age 15, about two years after making his "Coot Club" and "Big Six" appearances.

We see these people as Ransome Characters, and somehow we feel we "know" them. Then comes the realization that the actor playing that role is his own person totally unrelated to the character that we see in the movie. It is sometimes a bit of surprise to find out things about these REAL people with lives of their own.

Too bad about "Pete" - there was no indication in the article as to the cause of death. All too young to have life cut so short.
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43275 - 02/03/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Constable Sam
Umm...?


Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43274 - 02/03/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Constable Sam
A bomb squad was called after concerns about an unattended Vauxhall Corsa at Workington police station, Cumbria.

Roads around the building, in Hall Brow, were sealed off and an explosion carried out at 08:00 GMT.

The force blamed "an internal communications error" and apologised to the owner.

Cumbria Police said other officers on duty were not aware colleagues had parked the car outside the station after helping its owner, who had been taken ill.


The building was evacuated, a 100m cordon put in place and the vehicle blown up.

Insp Ashley Bennett said: "We have made contact with the owner of the vehicle, explained the situation and have apologised to him.

"The officers who dealt with this morning's incident did so with public safety in mind and followed the appropriate procedures in respect to an unoccupied suspicious vehicle.

"The constabulary will review this incident and will take on board any learning."

posted via 128.194.94.60 user Mcneacail.


message 43273 - 02/02/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: 2016 Film - Climax doubts
Absolutely.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43272 - 02/01/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
I still want a chance to see it here in Canada
posted via 184.151.37.150 user rlcossar.
message 43271 - 02/01/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: 2016 Film - Climax doubts
Mike - in my experience, when things don't match up children are the first to notice!
posted via 81.129.123.43 user Peter_H.
message 43270 - 02/01/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Film Thoughts
Why did they not use the old Swallow that I part own (somehow) -- it does not have shrouds -- real bummer that was.

Which lake is in the movie?


posted via 128.194.94.26 user Mcneacail.


message 43269 - 02/01/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Film Thoughts
I started watching the film last night on my small computer screen.
My thoughts on the film,
first minute the year is listed as 1935 - makes no difference to the film so why change.

Greenock is the birthplace of the script writer in Scotland so the change in Mrs Walker is obvious, the writer has not done a film for 12 years and average ratings on the films is 6.6. So at average.

Only 90 running minutes and assuming 20-60 words per minute you are limited to 7000 words, so you have to take 3/4 of the book out. If you want the full book need a 5 hour movie like King Lear.

Lake has been bastardized and the map is really weird. What lake was it?

I cannot see why they mixed stuff up - charcoal burners, that story about lighting fire is just weird and the original better.

Snake in hand -- weird as well

Old Billy was in his 80s.

For the life of me I cannot see why even with the interesting changes and I have no great problem with the spy bit, AR probably did spy in some ways they did not stick to book bits --

Kids being kids is really Billy Bunterish and the overboard scene - pure farce.

Mrs Jackson would not be miscast in Taming of the Shrew and why did Mr Jackson have a truck - more likely a cart.

Amazon's - a random pair of English girls from a random boarding school would have been better.

I loved Titty and Roger was ok for his age.

So the author needed a good kick in the pants from someone who has some film experience and can understand how to portray AR elements without being childish.

Mrs. Walker smoking -- I bloody doubt it

The travelling north wasted 16 good minutes, 2 minutes could have introduced Cpn Flint and spys,

More after watching the end tonight.

I actually liked most of it - I hate the two mothers -- makes me think of a love in in the 60's and Scotland in 1890.


John
posted via 128.194.94.26 user Mcneacail.


message 43268 - 02/01/17
From: Mike Jones , subject: Re: 2016 Film - Climax doubts
It's a children's film. Suspension of disbelief?
posted via 82.132.228.145 user Mike_Jones.
message 43267 - 01/31/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: 2016 Film - Climax doubts
Impossible in the extreme
posted via 50.24.59.133 user Mcneacail.
message 43266 - 01/31/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: 2016 Film - Climax doubts
I have given my opinion on the new film and don’t want to add to it, but I would be interested to know what others thought of the climactic event of the film – the attempt by the crews of ‘Amazon’ and ‘Swallow’ to prevent the aircraft which carries the captured Capn Flint from taking off from the lake. They do this by stretching a rope between the two boats so that it catches on the undercarriage (floats) of the aircraft.

I am not a sailor, so I may be completely wrong here, but it seems to me that to navigate two small sailing boats, using wind alone (no engines or oars), into the correct position on the lake, and then maintain station, keeping the rope taut, would take some time, depending on the wind conditions (in the film, there didn't seem to be any wind at all). I’m guessing but I would have thought at least 5-10 minutes. In the film, the time from the moment ‘Nancy’ throws the rope to ‘John’ to the moment the rope is caught on the undercarriage is 30 seconds (I have timed it). Surely this would not be possible?

By the way, I realise that film action is often time-condensed, but the problem here is that the simultaneous events aboard the plane are in real time. And by the way again, it looks to me as though ‘Nancy’ used a slip-knot to attach the rope to Amazon’s stem, so she was able to cast it off, but ‘John’ used a fixed knot, so he had to cut the rope with his pen-knife.

posted via 81.129.123.43 user Peter_H.


message 43265 - 01/31/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
Regarding "HIED".

Two references to the word "SHIED" - ML and PP, but no "HIED". At least, none in my TXT copies that I typed in myself, which makes that source subject to typo errors not found in the original books. There were those moments that I felt I had found an error, and corrected it in my version. Wish now I had left it alone, but that is the value of hind-sight.
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43264 - 01/31/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
Anyone who knows Shakespeare's Twelfth Night will remember Olivia saying, "Hie thee, Malvolio" when she wants him to act quickly.
posted via 141.0.14.146 user awhakim.
message 43263 - 01/31/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Rating films (was Contrasting Viewpoint)
Jock:

I can be as critical as the next boatswain, but if you look at the statistics the film achieved an 8.7 from Under 18 girls, granted a small set of numbers and one would normally question the statistical validity, but it is an indicator that perhaps the movie could reach a subset of girls who are not always shown in the best light in movies, I will let my 9 and 12 year old watch the DVD I just got and I will let you know.

Of course one could argue that effectively Nancy has more Y chromosome than John. (Personal and controversial opinion)

John

posted via 128.194.94.27 user Mcneacail.
message 43262 - 01/31/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Rating films (was Contrasting Viewpoint)
Interesting Jock, a quick look at the reviews showed that most of those that liked had not ever read the book. We also have to remember that it is not yet been released in the USA. Anyone know why?
posted via 95.145.229.242 user MTD.
message 43261 - 01/31/17
From: Jock, subject: Rating films (was Contrasting Viewpoint)
The Internet Movie Database (IMDb) audience ratings give quite a reasonable indication of audience reaction to a film.
I thought that it would be interesting to see how the new S&A film compared to some other family films.

7.9 – The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey
7.5 – Hugo
7.5 – Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
7.2 – The Hunger Games
6.8 – Miss Peregrine's Home for Peculiar Children
6.8 – Pete's Dragon
6.4 – The BFG (2016)

Now for the ratings of some classic films:

7.8 – Mary Poppins
7.9 – E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial
8.0 – The Sound of Music

And now for the IMDb rating of Swallows and Amazons (2016):

6.3!



posted via 178.43.127.230 user Jock.


message 43260 - 01/30/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
Though some of my criticisms of the film were to the way the source material was use, other observations I would have made if I had watched it having never read the book. The main reason in that it was a period piece presented as if it was the present day.
posted via 2.31.100.195 user MTD.
message 43259 - 01/30/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
"Hie" was used in my childhood too, but more with the connotation of "progressing towards" rather than "moving with alacrity".
posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.
message 43258 - 01/30/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
I certainly agree with the first part of your comment Dave, and I hope you're right about the rest too....
posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.
message 43257 - 01/30/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
Nor to me, as in "to hie after" something or someone. But I am not sure I've heard it in conversation in America, and I probably learned it from a book at a young age.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43256 - 01/30/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
I think that the fact that we, who are familiar with the original story, can watch the 1974 movie with some pleasure forty-three years later is a tribute to that film, and Claude Whatham's skill as a director. The new film, I feel, will sink without trace quite quickly.
posted via 110.148.118.20 user David.
message 43255 - 01/30/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
'Hie' is not a new verb to me John. I have always understood it to mean to move with a certain alacrity. I believe that its origin is Scottish, and so it would have been quite appropriate to use it in GN.
posted via 110.148.118.20 user David.
message 43254 - 01/30/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
I have commented on this film twice on Tarboard: after seeing it in the cinema with my eight-year old grandson, and after viewing the DVD at home with my AR library glowering down at me from the shelves. As I said, it worked as a film in the cinema, though some of it jarred, but was a much less happy experience at home.

As far as I can see, the film was reviewed, as it should have been, by professional film critics with weekly columns in their newspapers, whose job it is to review what they see as films, not primarily as adaptations of source material that is not in their area of expertise. Even a film critic who happened to be an AR enthusiast would still be expected to review SA as a film in its own right and judge it accordingly, though he/she might comment on its faithfulness as an adaptation. If such faithfulness had been the basis for judging the various film versions of The 39 Steps, 1 or 2 out of 5 might have been about right.

On that professional basis, 3/5 seems a reasonable score to have given it, though it goes without saying that the earlier film was a much more faithful adaptation.

posted via 92.18.213.247 user Mike_Jones.


message 43253 - 01/30/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
How hard is it to make a good movie from such excellent material?

I stumbled across the word hied - several times at the weekend in 3 different books, I have seen it before but not that regularly -

Ed is in hied in the AR books, I do not recall it - but I am not going to read them all - each author used to express speed

John
posted via 128.194.94.27 user Mcneacail.


message 43252 - 01/30/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
A professional negative review would be interesting to see - there must be one somewhere!
posted via 2.28.84.53 user MTD.
message 43251 - 01/30/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
"Don't let someone who has read it review it." Ugh. I suspect you're right, but on the off chance a knowledgeable review has slipped past the movie industry kapos, and someone here knows about it, a link would be appreciated.

As I said, it needs to be a professional review --Amazon.com reviews don't count-- to survive on Wiki. I haven't yet figured out a good way to cite AR forums to illustrate that devoted fans were not impressed.

I'm embarrassed for the BBC, that they allowed it to happen. I've only seen the YouTube teaser, and I'm still embarassed for them.

Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43250 - 01/30/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Contrasting Viewpoint
It does seem Alex that most of the reviews in quality sources rated it 3 or 4 out of 5, but they all seem to use reviewers who were not AR readers. Over the years I've see this with a lot of film adaptations of books - don't let someone who has read it review it!

A good review from a BBC source is going to be unlikely as it was their film!

On Amazon the vast majority of the 100 or so reviews are 5 out of 5, and it seems that reflects the view of the media. Many of them reviewing the film as a stand alone production with no reference to its source material.
posted via 2.28.84.53 user MTD.


message 43249 - 01/30/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Contrasting Viewpoint

Could someone point me toward a commercial news outlet's *negative* review of the recent movie?

I just read the Wiki page on the movie, and the "Critical Reception" section is apallingly one-sided. Enough so to get me angry. Someone --me, I guess, unless someone else would (please) volunteer-- needs to paste in a couple reviews more in line with the general consensus of AR fans such as we here. The reviews need to be able to be cited; i.e. our commentary probably won't do, so someplace reputable(?) like BBC needs to be the source.

Assistance, please?

Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43248 - 01/30/17
From: Jock, subject: Re: S & A 2016 Film (Again!)
Having recently watched the film, I found this a very fair review.
posted via 178.43.114.252 user Jock.
message 43247 - 01/29/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: S & A 2016 Film (Again!)
Having at long last watched the film I've posted my review.
posted via 2.28.231.170 user MTD.
message 43246 - 01/27/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Ramanujan (was Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots')
Andy:

1. I always wondered as to your general location in England
2. A drone a day - excellent
3. Further to the comments about the books not starting aka Commander Walker and the no go telegram -- imagine the end of GN and Cpn Flint is talking to Nancy -- you are what?
John
posted via 165.91.13.203 user Mcneacail.


message 43245 - 01/26/17
From: Peter Matthews, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
Thank you Alan and Owen and sorry for not repling sooner but I have been away. 8 weeks certainly explains how they managed to get so much done in the holidays!
posted via 212.42.177.213 user Electronpusher.
message 43244 - 01/26/17
From: Andy, subject: Re: Ramanujan (was Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots')
I'm currently using an MPU6050 with an Arduino to monitor changes in angle over time. While fretting over the code, I have also thought that this is exactly Dick's kind of stuff. If 'born' 95 years later, he'd almost certainly have a home-brewed solar-powered GPS unit on Scarab.

Hmm... 'A drone a day keeps the natives away.'
posted via 77.99.248.142 user Andy.


message 43243 - 01/23/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Lovely AR cartoon on ATR
Ha Ha, I'd forgotten that!
posted via 142.176.10.175 user rlcossar.
message 43242 - 01/23/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: S & A Stage Production (not Bristol Old Vic)
True, DPIO also started at the Nuffield. Denise mentioned that explicitly in her talk.
posted via 141.0.14.219 user awhakim.
message 43241 - 01/23/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Lovely AR cartoon on ATR
This cartoon reminds me of a compilation of TarBoard postings entitled "Cut off before their Prime" that was published in the TARS journal Mixed Moss back in Winter 2003.

Some of the quotes:

Daddy's first draft "UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES CAN YOU CHILDREN SAIL ALONE IN A SMALL BOAT TO AN UNKNOWN ISLAND. LOVE, DADDY" (John Lambert)
or
"MAYBE NEXT YEAR BUT ONLY UNDER CLOSE SUPERVISION" (Ian Wright)

The Ross Cossar let the action proceed a bit further before bringing matters to a shocking end:
"At that moment something glanced off the saucepan with a loud ping. A long arrow with a green feather, stuck quivering in John's chest."
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 43240 - 01/22/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Reeflng, was: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Cool: I learn something new every day. Thank you!

For reference, to reef my gaff-rigged sloop, I take up on the topping lift to carry the weight of the boom, ease the throat halyard and make the tack pendant, ease the peak and make the clew pendant, then make fast the nettles along the boom. Sweat up the halyards and away we go.

From the sounds of it, Swallow is the same as my sloop. Goblin, with her roller-reefing boom, was different, of course. Any other instances of reefing in the books, to use as reference? As often as Knight appears in AR, I'd be interested in what other examples provide.

Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43239 - 01/22/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Having never sailed, let alone reefed, a lug-rigged boat I can't pass comment. However, when reefing the bermudean rig of a Comet or similar the reefing line raises the clew (providing you remembered to slacken off the kicker), then bring the new tack down to the gooseneck while slackening off the halyard. Fasten the reef points (bungee cords in our case), tighten the halyard, and finally the kicker.
posted via 86.129.192.189 user MartinH.
message 43238 - 01/22/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: S & A Stage Production (not Bristol Old Vic)
This will have been the dramatisation by Denise Deegan for the Nuffield Theatre, Southampton at Christmas 1988. Denise before that had a great success with Daisy Pulls It Off, a spoof play based on girls' school stories of the early 20th century. It ran in the London West End for a long time.

If asked I would have said I saw Swallows and Amazons earlier than 1988, but that date fits in with the period when I had the time and money to go to the theatre regularly. Incidentally I also Daisy Pulls It Off, also at the Nuffield, which I think was before it transferred to the West End.
posted via 86.129.192.189 user MartinH.


message 43237 - 01/22/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: S & A Stage Production (not Bristol Old Vic)
Thank you Alan, that explains a lot!
posted via 95.150.14.143 user MTD.
message 43236 - 01/22/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Unfortunately, neither the 1919 or the 1938 edition have an illustration.

It really is a good book, though he does get one thing "wrong"(?): in describing how to reef, he takes down the clew first, then the tack. Perhaps this reverse order is something peculiar to the traditional English cutter rig, where the main is loose footed and the tack left running so that it can be triced up? Either way, John gets it right in S&A, for Swallow: tack, then clew, then the nettles along the boom.

Alex

posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43235 - 01/22/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Conveniently, I just last night finished reading my copy of Knight (the 1919 edition, as pictured here). He describes how to mouse sisterhooks, but does not provide an illustration.

I think I have a pair up in the the "chandlery" section of my shop. I haven't yet figured out how to post a photo to this forum, but if someone can explain it to me, I'll provide an illustration.

Allan, I'll give fair warning so you can close your eyes.

Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43234 - 01/22/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: S & A Stage Production (not Bristol Old Vic)
This will have been the dramatisation by Denise Deegan for the Nuffield Theatre, Southampton at Christmas 1988. Denise before that had a great success with Daisy Pulls It Off, a spoof play based on girls' school stories of the early 20th century. It ran in the London West End for a long time.
There was another production of S&A a year or two later at Theatr Clwyd, and then Denise came and gave a delightful talk about it all at the TARS Literary Weekend in 1995. If anyone out there is a TARS member, they can get the "Transcripts of the Third Literary Weekend". I'm not going to quote it here: it runs to 11 pages of A4.
Sadly, though there was tremendous enthusiasm at the talk about another adaptation, nothing ever came of it.
(Incidentally, if you do get the transcripts, you'll find other gems such as Publishing Arthur Ransome by Tony Colwell, who looked after the books at Jonathan Cape's for years.)
posted via 141.0.15.34 user awhakim.
message 43233 - 01/22/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: OED
On that note, if you're not familiar with the web cartoon xkcd, and its author, Randall Monroe, check it out. He also put out a book titled "Thing-Explainer", using only the 1000 most common English words to explain such scientific concepts or creations as the Saturn V rocket, Big Bang, etc. It's quite something. Dick would be more eloquent, explaining science, but it gets the point across.

Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43232 - 01/22/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Lovely AR cartoon on ATR
Doesn't that just cover it?

Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43231 - 01/22/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Lovely AR cartoon on ATR
Mike, as Julia owns the original and refers to it as "her favourite" of the First Drafts, I think it is definitely not recent, but I haven't asked her.

Dave

posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43230 - 01/22/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: S & A Stage Production (not Bristol Old Vic)
Thanks Martin, at least us more to go on.
posted via 95.150.14.143 user MTD.
message 43229 - 01/22/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: S & A Stage Production (not Bristol Old Vic)
This is probably the production of SA I attended at Southampton's Nuffield Theatre in the early 80s. I've tried googling for further information but can't find anything.

I would have kept the programme for several years (as you do) but probably threw it out prior to a house move.

From what I remember it was pretty faithful in following the book within the constraints of a two hour theatre performance. The boats were mounted on a revolve and sailing was simulated by them rotating as if on a roundabout. No feathered headdresses just red stocking caps.
posted via 86.129.192.189 user MartinH.


message 43228 - 01/22/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: S & A Stage Production (not Bristol Old Vic)
Re-reading Peter Hunt's 'Approaching Arthur Ransome' he mentions in the preface a stage production of SA in the 1980s, I've tried some Online searches for it with no results.

Does anyone have any information of it?
posted via 95.150.14.143 user MTD.


message 43227 - 01/22/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Lovely AR cartoon on ATR
Could you imagine? Nobody would know who Ransome was today and film makers would be a total loss for creating children's adventure stories
posted via 184.151.36.61 user rlcossar.
message 43226 - 01/22/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Lovely AR cartoon on ATR
Dave - thanks for posting my review and for this cartoon, I'm a bit behind reading the latest Private Eye so had yet to see it!
posted via 95.150.14.143 user MTD.
message 43225 - 01/21/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Lovely AR cartoon on ATR
We've just posted a charming AR cartoon, one of the "First Drafts" series. See http://allthingsransome.net/vault/index.html or you can go directly to the cartoon at: http://allthingsransome.net/vault/First%20Drafts%20Arthur%20Ransome.jpg.


posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43224 - 01/21/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: OED
Allegedly one can get by with Basic English (either 850 or about 2000 words depending on the source) but I believe several thousand is more realistic. One of the useful things about English is that while it is awfully difficult to master, it is very easy to grasp enough to make yourself understood; one of the reasons English has become so ubiquitous.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43223 - 01/21/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Mike has given permission for us to post his review on All Things Ransome. See the Literary Pages Reviews section, or the Ransome Readers Recommend section.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43222 - 01/21/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Cringe-worthy Alex, isn't it? He'd used them to attach the jib-sheets, and the flogging sail made them work loose while he was on the fore-deck when the accident happened.

But sorry, I don't have a picture of moused sister-hooks and nor can I find one on the web. For those who really want to know though, you just bring the hooks together and clap a strong seizing (using the word loosely) around the shanks below the eyes.

While "Knight on Sailing" was certainly stated by AR as being used by John, nowhere in that book (as far as I can tell, and I have two editions as well as access to Tim's on-line version) is there any mention of sister-hooks.
posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.


message 43221 - 01/21/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: OED
While I enjoy improving my word power and learning more words I can weave into my life, I wonder what is a reasonable minimum number of English words one needs to get by.
posted via 184.151.61.104 user rlcossar.
message 43220 - 01/21/17
From: Hotted up (was: Review of SA&C), subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
We had this discussion only a few months ago.

"Hotted up" was a phrase commonly used by my parents and others I knew of their generation.
posted via 2.31.117.176 user eclrh.


message 43219 - 01/21/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
For those wishing to emulate John and Dick, below is a link to an on-line version on the All Things Ransome site.

ousing and its application to sisterhooks can be found in

CHAPTER XVI - GLOSSARY OF NAUTICAL TERMS

[ Image ]

posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 43218 - 01/21/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Mousing the sisterhooks: The answer is, of course, in Sailing (or Small Boat Sailing) by E.F. Knight, that "slim blue volume" that Dick and John are forever referring to.
posted via 81.156.113.224 user Magnus.
message 43217 - 01/21/17
From: Words, subject: OED
How many words are there in the English language?

There is no single sensible answer to this question. It's impossible to count the number of words in a language, because it's so hard to decide what actually counts as a word. Is dog one word, or two (a noun meaning 'a kind of animal', and a verb meaning 'to follow persistently')? If we count it as two, then do we count inflections separately too (e.g. dogs = plural noun, dogs = present tense of the verb). Is dog-tired a word, or just two other words joined together? Is hot dog really two words, since it might also be written as hot-dog or even hotdog?

It's also difficult to decide what counts as 'English'. What about medical and scientific terms? Latin words used in law, French words used in cooking, German words used in academic writing, Japanese words used in martial arts? Do you count Scots dialect? Teenage slang? Abbreviations?

The Second Edition of the 20-volume Oxford English Dictionary contains full entries for 171,476 words in current use, and 47,156 obsolete words. To this may be added around 9,500 derivative words included as subentries. Over half of these words are nouns, about a quarter adjectives, and about a seventh verbs; the rest is made up of exclamations, conjunctions, prepositions, suffixes, etc. And these figures don't take account of entries with senses for different word classes (such as noun and adjective).

This suggests that there are, at the very least, a quarter of a million distinct English words, excluding inflections, and words from technical and regional vocabulary not covered by the OED, or words not yet added to the published dictionary, of which perhaps 20 per cent are no longer in current use. If distinct senses were counted, the total would probably approach three quarters of a million.

Thus we can only wonder at the great words we learned from AR, I still get chipped for using AR expressions and being asked -- where did that come from and I just look and them and think Pudding Faces.
posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.


message 43216 - 01/21/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
SAD - teaches you one thing, a good leader is not a bad thing, a bad egg should be drowned at birth or at least sent down.

Academe has the exact opposite of a ship and it is a vey poor thing indeed
posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.


message 43215 - 01/21/17
From: Robert, subject: Re: Ramanujan (was Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots')
I have found that most academic people have very little interest outside their immediate office. I do an awful lot of very fine work with accelerometers, and at the moment we have one on a bridge in London, I have spent the last two months getting it to work on a Linux box, using MONO so that we had a more stable platform than WINDOWS and cheaper. I got it running on NUC, which is expensive and I just got it running on an English PI 2. We cannot use the USB driver written for windows so we go through the ethernet. Fair amount of code writing, but fun. Dick would have had a PI 2 or 3 on his summer hols.

During this process I cam across Ramanujan paper on Highly Composite Numbers, the sort of Bletchley Park cross Dick stuff you could really grow to love, although as Hardy said it was of little relevance, one does not do math or read AR for relevance one does it for fun.

I read the paper and was struck by the idea at the beginning of how he would count the prime components, I do not have anything like the skills that man had, but when I saw the answer I went damn that is simple. I then thought I could code it and check the answers, the paper notes that using a pencil and paper in 1915 Ramanujan missed only 2 of the highly composite numbers, literally numbers in the thousands and tens of thousands. One must ask if Ramanujan had been alive in 1941 would he have been at Bletchley and would he have solved those problems faster.

During this time of writing I did not have use the unmentionable device once, but I wish Ed and I could visit WI together and like little boys take a swim in the lake.

Now where is my book on plumbing.

posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.


message 43214 - 01/21/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'

...nearly dragged overboard by one of a pair of sister-hooks caught in the corner of his eye...


EEE! OOO! AH! Please don't talk about that ever again. It curls my toes.

Even if Allan is nuturing his sense of mystery, you need to find a photo of sisterhooks that have been properly moused, Mike.

Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43213 - 01/21/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'

"Hotted up" is unusual? Really? Daily phrase, here.

Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43212 - 01/21/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Aw, shucks.

Thanks, Dave. :)
posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.


message 43211 - 01/21/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
My daughter and I tend to use "hotted up", but that might be because we are S&A readers
posted via 86.129.192.189 user MartinH.
message 43210 - 01/20/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
In his 1869 book Down Channel, R T McMullen recounts how he was nearly dragged overboard by one of a pair of sister-hooks caught in the corner of his eye. That was how he learned he always needed to mouse them....

Out of deference to your susceptibilities, Allan, I won't enlarge on sister-hooks any further here. However, anyone interested in seeing what they look like can click on the link for a picture.

As far as I can make out, sister-hooks were not in fact used on either Amazon or Swallow, and there's only that one mention of them anywhere in the books.

posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.
message 43209 - 01/20/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Oh no, we still hot things up here. (Or else we zap them....)
posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.
message 43208 - 01/20/17
From: Allan_Lang, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
When I first read Ransome, at age 10-11, I was able to work out from context what most of the strange words meant

However, I am resolved never to spoil the mystery by ever learning what "mouse your sisterhooks" means (although it's apparently important.)
posted via 101.178.163.206 user Allan_Lang.


message 43207 - 01/20/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
I always stop reading over the phrase "hotted up". Is that still used? I always Heat things up.

posted via 184.151.61.104 user rlcossar.
message 43206 - 01/20/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
As an American, I cannot judge if certain expressions are still used in the British version of English, but there is one that I feel is possibly becoming a bit out of date (my guess), and that is, "I say>"

There are 469 times that expression is used in the Ransome 12. I do not know if that is still in current usage, or is this just a sample of the 1930's, or is that today still in popular usage.

In my reading of these books, the "I say" expression was very much a standout as being not the way I would say things. Then there was the spellings that my American spell checker kept harassing me about as I typed these texts into my computer. Another surprise of language usage differences came early in S&A as Roger ran up to the others while waving the telegram, and John questions him, saying, "DESPATCHES?" I never would have said that, and I would have spelled it as "DIS..." But this was part of the fun, the mystery, the joy of deciphering these expressions as being different from what I was used to. It was an Education, one that introduced me to some terms a sailor would know, but that I had to learn about, such as my feeling of success when I finally understood what the "Painter" was, that it had nothing to do with smearing stuff on the side of a house. A "Sheet" is not necessarily just what one spreads on a bed. A "Traveler" has nothing to do with someone on vacation. Then the truly foreign words of "pintle and gudgeon" both of which upset my American Spell checker. Reading Ransome has been an educational pleasure, showing me new places, new ideas, and a play world of fantasy that was made out to be so real He triggered my interest in signalling, a learned skill that gave me a leadership position in my group of Boy Scouts. For all he brought into my life, I am truly grateful.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43205 - 01/20/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Sorry, my link takes you to the middle of the discussion!
posted via 2.29.97.179 user MTD.
message 43204 - 01/20/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
This was discussed at some length over the last couple of years (including by myself) on the blog of an Australian author Michelle Cooper
posted via 2.29.97.179 user MTD.
message 43203 - 01/20/17
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
"_Books reflect the period they are written, not a much later era with different values._"

Alan Hakim, Mike Field, David Bamford: 100% yes. If something in the books makes you uncomfortable, learn from it and carry on.

Alex
posted via 73.221.221.14 user Pitsligo.


message 43202 - 01/20/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
I concur with Mike fully, as I usually do. That's why we're such good mates.
David
posted via 137.147.12.219 user David.
message 43201 - 01/20/17
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
"Books reflect the period they are written, not a much later era with different values."

Exactly. That's why some words used by, inter alia, AR in the 1930s, words that are no longer acceptable in public speech, should nevertheless remain in the texts.

Some people in the past have thought that bowdlerised versions of AR should be published to suit today's tastes and preferences. This was discussed here a short while ago, with some bowdlerised examples produced to show how ridiculous the whole idea really is.

The books are the books. If you don't like parts of them, don't alter them, just don't read them. [Steps down off soap-box]
posted via 124.171.138.86 user mikefield.


message 43200 - 01/19/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Titty did have those somewhat psychological moments. There was her imagination that had her pretending the Man Friday visit in S&A, and the melting in the fire of the GA wax doll that hinted at certain Religious procedures not normally associated with her normal life to the point she was sincerely worried that maybe she had truly harmed the GA. The "let's pretend" play world was creeping into her real world with not really accepting the difference of those two sets of rules. This was different from her "Man Friday" moment which she kept in the "let's pretend" mode in her mind. But that GA doll really bothered her. She was considered by the others, especially Susan, as not to be always believed, that she was apt to let her imagination run away with her, as when she kept insisting she heard the thieves on Cormorant Island bury the treasure. But to give credit when truly earned, she did have the sense to grab the AMAZON and "steal" it to win the "war." And as for her fear of the divining rod trauma, she did have the courage, once she was alone, to pick it up and have another go with it again, and this time to have some serious positive results.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43199 - 01/18/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Ramanujan (was Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots')
Even Srinivasa Iyengar Ramanujan had problems with lecturers

He also failed to get recognition from the mathematicians he contracted in England before he hit on Hardy. I don't think their identities have ever been published.
posted via 2.31.117.176 user eclrh.


message 43198 - 01/18/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
I have just finished reading the book, and my reaction in summary is that it won't get a permanent place on my Ransome bookshelf. The exposition of the plot of each book is good, but I know them already. Far worse is his constant harping on Empire themes. Books reflect the period they are written, not a much later era with different values. They came out when I was young, and the world of British children was as he described, though we all longed to have adventures like the S&As.
As for the analysis of the dowsing, I agree with Peter. It is a most memorable episode, but has never struck me as anything other than a true portrayal of a young girl being distressed by finding she had an unexpected gift outside her control.
I went on a dowsing course a few years ago, totally sceptical. It works. I can't explain it, and it certainly wasn't stressful, but the dowsing rods found what I was looking for, every time.
posted via 141.0.14.73 user awhakim.
message 43197 - 01/18/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Thanks for your comments, and I agree with yours.

The over analysis of Titty and dowsing bothered me as well, especially as I am able to dowse and fully understand the stress it can cause that AR describes very well.
posted via 2.29.97.179 user MTD.


message 43196 - 01/18/17
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
I think Mike’s critique of ‘Swallows, Amazons and Coots’ is pretty much spot-on. The author, Julian Lovelock, deserves great credit for writing a book on AR, doing an obvious huge amount of work, and then succeeding in getting it published. I also agree that some of the Amazon comments are harsh. However, John Nichols is right to mention academic reviews, because I feel that Julian Lovelock has fallen prey to the modern ‘contextual’ approach to literary criticism, in which you don’t just analyse the text, but you also consider the historical, political, social and psychological etc. influences on the author concerned. That may be appropriate with regard to some authors, but not Ransome, in my view. AR was an experienced, trained journalist, who wrote down what he saw and what he heard and little else. His approach to children’s fiction was the same – what did they do, what did they see, what did they eat. There was only one very real ‘activity’ which he didn't mention, and we all know what that was. He used his imagination to construct adventures for the children based on reality in a known landscape. OK, there are echoes of ‘Empire’ in Commander Walker’s naval missions but these are very much in the background.

Julian Lovelock has also deconstructed the Titty dowsing episode, and describes it as “more than a hint of the beginnings of Titty’s sexual awareness”. Titty was about ten in ‘Pigeon Post’ and that statement makes me uneasy. I feel it was unwise to include it. It strikes me that Titty’s distress was simply that of a child discovering that she had an irrational ‘gift’, i.e. water divining, but not feeling able to cope with it.

posted via 86.182.41.12 user Peter_H.


message 43195 - 01/18/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
If you wish to see harsh reviews, one only needs to look at academic reviews of dissertations, particularly if the reviewer does not like the supervisor, the student gets it in the head for something that occurred 30 years ago in a class. Even Srinivasa Iyengar Ramanujan had problems with lecturers. Of course the fact that he could see math most people can only dream about did not help. No one likes a Roger all of the time.

posted via 165.91.13.149 user Mcneacail.
message 43194 - 01/17/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Thanks Adam, You sum up what I felt on my first reading, but it deserved more (but judging by the few reviews on Amazon others felt the same, one was particular harsh.)
posted via 2.29.97.179 user MTD.
message 43193 - 01/17/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
Very interesting review, Mike. I think that you have reflected some of my misgivings about the book. It is not that it is in any way bad, but it could have been better in some ways.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43192 - 01/17/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
To borrow badly and English "bally good", although I would give it the 12 year's meaning not the 60 year old's meaning
posted via 165.91.13.149 user Mcneacail.
message 43191 - 01/17/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Review of 'Swallows, Amazons and Coots'
I have posted a revised version of my Amazon.co.uk review of Julian Lovelock's book on my blog.
posted via 2.29.97.179 user MTD.
message 43190 - 01/14/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Secret Water New Road
I've posted a photo of the new road name sign in the 'Town'.
posted via 95.149.55.159 user MTD.
message 43189 - 01/12/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Leegal tickling (was Victorious Moments)
Generally tickling or guddling is illegal in public waters. I believe that in private waters it is up to the owner whether or not to permit it.

The rationale seems to be to protect the sport of angling and the rights of fishing licence ownsers rather than for any fish protection reasons.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 43188 - 01/12/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Leegal tickling (was Victorious Moments)
I read this in two different places, tickling for fish is illegal in all waters in the UK. I could be wrong, but it appeared to be pretty specific.
posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.
message 43187 - 01/11/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Leegal tickling (was Victorious Moments)
I have a friend in Nuuk Greenland and he was tickling trout last summer but wished he had claws like the bears to grab onto the fish better.
posted via 184.151.63.129 user rlcossar.
message 43186 - 01/11/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Leegal tickling (was Victorious Moments)
When did it become illegal, why would anyone say this is illegal -- man against fish -- is there no fun anymore.

I think what's illegal is not ticling as a method of fishing, but the fact that the fishing rights on the river belong to somebody else.

Yes, taking fish from water belonging to someone else is poaching.
posted via 86.129.192.189 user MartinH.


message 43185 - 01/11/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: Leegal tickling (was Victorious Moments)
Oops! Another mis-spelling of "tickling", and one in "legal" in the title as well!
posted via 2.31.117.176 user eclrh.
message 43184 - 01/11/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Leegal tickling (was Victorious Moments)
When did it become illegal, why would anyone say this is illegal -- man against fish -- is there no fun anymore.

I think what's illegal is not ticling as a method of fishing, but the fact that the fishing rights on the river belong to somebody else.

posted via 2.31.117.176 user eclrh.


message 43183 - 01/10/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Passenger & Spelling?
Like Robinson Crusoe and the SFR, the stranded guy is a mechanical engineer, so he has some skills, but not the "correct and complete skill set." He finally decides after a year alone to "wake up a girl." Adds to the plot, think 39 Steps girl added.

So we have an accident, is WS, we have the anchor lost. We have two, although 3 for a short while, people alone, and drifting through space, trying to work out how to manage, think WS and John and Susan getting to sea and safety. Did not PD say something about shores being dangerous?

There is the events to be dealt with, the kitten, being run down and one sees the same minor happenings in the Hollywood movie. They overcome adversity.

The ends are similar, everyone is safe and LHEA - think Cinderella.

So all the way through the movie, I had a good idea of the next stage as it was so close to WS. Instead of saving a drowning kitty, she saves the lost spaceman, etc...

I was just a bit intrigued as to why the lost couple did not have a couple of children and wake a few more up to make a village. Sensible thing to so and make for a sequel.

The interesting ethical issues in both are evident, do you leave an untrained or missing crew and wander off, in WS the Captain should never have left the boat - but that is just a personal opinion.

Interesting movie.

I purchased Swallows and Amazons DVD - had to get it from the UK Amazon, about 15 USD including postage.

John


posted via 128.194.94.53 user Mcneacail.


message 43182 - 01/10/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Passenger & Spelling?
My apologies, yes the Movie Passengers. My computer is crashing a bit at the moment so I will keep these brief.

In Passengers, the basic story is the old Swiss Family Robinson, with the castaways on a 100 year voyage to a new world. It is all automated and everyone is in hibernation. The ship runs into a meteor storm and a large one makes it through the "magnetic/electric" shield protecting the ship and damages one of the reactors. The ship is almost self healing, but not quite. In the energy blackout - a Robinson Crusoe person is woken up and is then stranded on the ship alone except for a robotic bar man, (best actor in the group by the way).

posted via 128.194.94.53 user Mcneacail.


message 43181 - 01/10/17
From: Tom Napier, subject: Re: Passenger & Spelling?
I assumed that "Passenger" was an allusion to the recent movie, "Passengers" about finding oneself the only person awake on a interstellar ship.

posted via 108.16.161.209 user Didymus.
message 43180 - 01/10/17
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Passenger & Spelling?
Thank you for this, Adam. I thought it was just me who was totally baffled.

May I join the club?
Anything to do with the "Spelling" thread?
"Tickling" is all very well, but cries out for context too.
posted via 90.255.41.69 user PeterC.


message 43179 - 01/10/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Cinema trips
Cinema trips are crazy prices these days. I advise all UK patrons to pay for Cineworld tickets using Tesco tokens (I build up the points for free) and then to buy popcorn, sweets and drinks from the supermarket before you go. No-one has ever raised an eyebrow at me lugging a rucksack along with me.

We often decant the purchases into a packet/container that makes less of a racket.

My friend related a conversation he recently had when he took his 7 year old to the cinema...

Employee: "There's your tickets, do you want to buy any popcorn?"
Little boy: "No, we've bought our own."
Parent: [Burns with shame]
Employee: [Whispers] "Good idea. I would!"
posted via 81.156.113.154 user Magnus.


message 43178 - 01/10/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Passenger
Thank you for this, Adam. I thought it was just me who was totally baffled.
posted via 92.18.216.117 user Mike_Jones.
message 43177 - 01/10/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Passenger
John,
I have no idea what you are posting about. Could you please explain.
Thanks
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43176 - 01/09/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Special Branch
Coleman also contends that Special Branch of equivalent have been tapping his phone for years. He seems to dislike the EU and the Inland Revenue ( a lot).

Funny that two Guardian writers had such problems.


posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.


message 43175 - 01/09/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Spelling
Tickling
posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.
message 43174 - 01/09/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Victorious Moments
AR has lots of interesting knowledge tucked into his books.

I was reading Vernon Coleman's Doctor books, and Thumper is arrested by the Water Bailiff for ticking fish in Devon.

When did it become illegal, why would anyone say this is illegal -- man against fish -- is there no fun anymore.

Interestingly Coleman mentions Buchan, but not AR. No real kids in his books.

He is not as good as AR - funny but not AR's hidden humour, nor his writing skills although they both wrote for the Guardian.

John
posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.


message 43173 - 01/09/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Re: Passenger - spelling
contend
posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.
message 43172 - 01/09/17
From: John Nichols, subject: Passenger
I content that Passenger is just a poor man's WDMTGTS with less excitement and adventure.
posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.
message 43171 - 01/09/17
From: Ethics, subject: Re: AR and Ethics
Dear Dave:

We have to take the youngest child and then one of the friends so they are balanced so to speak. 4 tickets is about 20 bucks then popcorn, four drinks, and 2 candy make about 29.50, then the running around and petrol let us call it 50 bucks.
I took them all to see Rogue One (only 3) and it was 40.
posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.


message 43169 - 01/08/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: AR and Ethics
Certainly there is nothing wrong with it! I paid my daughter in sherbet lemons to read S&A and then she liked it, and read two others. Hurrah!

My elder daughters certainly need pushing to read the books that I decide are good for them. They read for at least an hour every day, of their own choice, but they point blank refuse to let me suggest a title. Every so often I put my foot down, they begrudgingly read an award-winner, and later tell me they loved it.
posted via 81.156.113.154 user Magnus.


message 43168 - 01/08/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: Victorious Moments
Last evening I read the chapter The Race from Swallowdale to my wife. It has so much sailing knowledge tucked into the pages and I know learned as a young kid reading this very chapter.

It is also a chapter of victory where John managed a victory for his crew knowing his boat well and the routes he was willing to choose.
posted via 184.151.63.129 user rlcossar.


message 43167 - 01/08/17
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Victorious Moments
When you are watching a sporting event and the team you are pulling for scores, you feel like jumping up thrusting both arms up in the air and shouting, a very vivid display of emotion.

There are moments in these Ransome stories that seemed to be a Grand Event that made me want to stand up and cheer with arms raised in celebration.

Here are but a few of those moments; there are others.

In Pigeon Post, Roger comes to the realization that the piece of quartz he had just hammered loose from the wall had a glint of metal. He knew that he had found what they had all been looking for. He had really done it.

In We Didn't Mean To Go To Sea, there were so many moments of stress, of real fear of very real dangers. It was no made up child's game they were playing, like the Amazons pretending to be pirates. This was serious business, a struggle to remain alive. Things began looking up when the Pilot came on board, but a lot of questions as to how to make the next move, and how to pay for the Pilot and the telegram, different kinds of stress, but serious concerns. Then John happened to look up to that steamer next to them and suddenly recognized DADDY. Then, he was gone. So near, yet another failure. Then came that wondrous moment of Victory, as they heard the sound of a motorboat coming up behind them, and suddenly, they saw...DADDY. The shift in emotion was fantastic. Susan had to hide back in the cabin to manage her tears, but tears of relief, not of fear. The emotions of that moment completely turned around.

In Peter Duck, of course the moment of Victory was after the stress of the storm, the loss of their water supply, only to suddenly discover the treasure they had come so far to find. This emotional joy was somewhat restrained when they found that it was not gold picecs of eight which any respectable Pirate would have buried, but some pearls, some of questionable value. But they had found what they had come looking for.

Winter Holiday had that moment of emotional cheering on my part because it involved communication via code, that is, Morse Code. Nancy was recovering from her illness and was walking about to get her legs back in working order again. There was some stress as to the missing D's with even the Natives getting stirred up in the search for those missing two. But Nancy happened to look far away, to the north, and saw another light, below those of the village beyond, but a light that seemed to be blinking. She looked again, and realized that was CODE. She spelled out the letters, "NP" and realized what it meant, that the D's were at the North Pole.

This last Victory Moment was of special importance to me because it was Winter Holiday that triggered my desire to become familiar with CODE, Morse and Semaphore. My Ransome friends were actually using that. I learned it, and suggested to my Boy Scout Troup that we all should learn signalling. The Scoutmaster suggested that I teach my friends. For the nerd kid who was always the last chosen for the team, it suddenly put me into a leadership position among my peers. Those guys seemed to take to this project rather well. We did quite a bit of practicing from one end of a field to another. It was a social victory for me.

When ever signalling was used by my Ransome friends, it quickly got my attention, as in PP, John and Roger signalling with flashing torch back to the base camp as the two boys prepared to spend the night in the gulch, keeping watch. In Winter Holiday, there was that flurry of semaphore with Nancy (face like a pumpkin) in her window, with that delightful moment of realization as to what "SMT" meant. (Shiver my Timbers). Another moment that could have been a rather exciting victory of the art of signalling was mentioned in Swallowdale, but they never actually tried to get the idea to really work, and that was from the top of the Lookout Rock, they could see Holly Howe and mentioned the possibility of signalling to Mom back there from that rock, but they never made that effort. I always regretted that failure as it would have been quite a success to communicate across such a distance. This event was of course before Winter Holiday, so signalling at that time was not all that important to them.

Signalling was just another one of those features that made reading Ransome such an educational process. When I got my sailboat, I rigged it and sailed it having read nothing other than Ransome as to "how to" make it work, and did quite well. In the Scouts, I could build a campfire and hang a pot over the flame, because I had seen Susan do it and I had learned from her. It has been a learning experience to have those books a part of my growing up, and still a constant companion on into my retirement years. These books are among my prize possessions.

Thanks, AR... Ya dun Good...

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA ( kisered@aol.com )
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.



message 43164 - 01/08/17
From: Dave, subject: Re: AR and Ethics
When is a bribe a reward? When are either an agreed payment for say mowing the lawn, which might or might not be a regular task? Is it strictly according to whether the activity is fun? And what if it is perceived as fun the the "briber" but not fun by the "bribee"?
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43163 - 01/08/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Cost of movies was Re: AR and Ethics
Ah, of course. I'd forgotten the snacks.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.
message 43160 - 01/08/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Cost of movies was Re: AR and Ethics
Don't forget the cost of overpriced drinks and popcorn by the bucket, which is what my children wanted.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43159 - 01/07/17
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: AR and Ethics
John, does it really cost $50 to take an adult and a child to a movie where you are in Texas? Or are you including other family members?

Here (far Northern California) a daily matinee costs about $15 for two adults.

posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43158 - 01/06/17
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: AR and Ethics
If you want a serious answer then no its not, the fact you saved money by not taking her to see a film is of no relevance. Its interesting that she rejected going to see the film in favour of reading the book, or was she unaware of the chance to see a film?

Less serious answer, if it gets her reading any AR then why not? (Good choice to start with I have to say as its my favourite!)
posted via 2.28.82.117 user MTD.


message 43157 - 01/06/17
From: Ross, subject: Re: AR and Ethics
I'm not seeing anything unethical about this (though I would hope we don't need to pay people to do fun things). Some people get paid to watch movies. At work I get paid to read certain documents.
posted via 184.151.63.129 user rlcossar.
message 43156 - 01/06/17
From: John Nichols, subject: AR and Ethics
Dear Gurus:

Over Christmas I offered my 11 year old daughter 10 dollars to read Winter Holiday.

My wife told her that was bribery and she could not accept the money.

It costs me 50 to take her to the flicks, it saved me 40 -- is this ethical

John
posted via 50.24.51.118 user Mcneacail.


message 43155 - 01/05/17
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
I can certainly confirm Alan’s thoughts on the summer school term dates. Many school terms ended on the penultimate Tuesday or Thursday in July. Public schools usually took external exams set by Oxford or Cambridge boards. In the 1920/30s these took place from late June until the 3rd weeks in July.
Between 1919 and 1951, these exams were for School Certificate at age 16 and Higher School Certificate at age 18. To matriculate meaning to be entered on a University’s register, meant passing 6 subjects simultaneously at SC level including English, Mathematics and Science. This entry requirement could vary but generally required a minimum of 5 subjects including any credits or distinctions.
These summer term end dates continued up until the 1980’s when external exam dates changed. After 1951, matriculation effectively disappeared and exams were replaced by O levels (later GCSE’s) and A levels.
Summer holidays ended after 8 weeks, although State schools only had 6 weeks. The difference was attributed to Public Schools working/playing sports on Saturdays.

posted via 87.113.133.203 user OwenRoberts.
message 43154 - 01/05/17
From: Allan_Lang, subject: Re: Character ages
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
In the 1940s (and therefore probably the 1930s; not much changed in this area during the war) the summer term at public schools ended about the third week of July, and the autumn term started about September 20th. i.e after 8 weeks holiday.
State schools broke up a little later, but restarted much earlier in September.

In Reply to: Re: Character ages (was: schools) posted by Magnus Smith on January 04, 2017 at 09:23:35:

Roger Wardale quotes a list of ages made by AR for his own reference when writing PM, which is set in "first fortnight of summer hols 1933". Chronologically it is 3 years after SA.
"R 10, T 12, S 14, J 15, D 13, D 12, N 15, P 14" Roger assumes the first 'D' is Dorothea.

WR to AR, this (S 14, J 15) not possible

S&A takes place on August. John is flush because he has birthday money from "just before they came to the lake" (June-July?)

But later Susan states that her birthday is on New Years Day

So if John is Twelve, Susan is Ten & five-eights.

posted via 101.178.163.14 user Allan_Lang.


message 43153 - 01/05/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: Character ages
Roger Wardale quotes a list of ages made by AR for his own reference when writing PM, which is set in "first fortnight of summer hols 1933". Chronologically it is 3 years after SA.
"R 10, T 12, S 14, J 15, D 13, D 12, N 15, P 14" Roger assumes the first 'D' is Dorothea.
posted via 141.0.14.145 user awhakim.
message 43152 - 01/05/17
From: Alan Hakim, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
In the 1940s (and therefore probably the 1930s; not much changed in this area during the war) the summer term at public schools ended about the third week of July, and the autumn term started about September 20th. i.e after 8 weeks holiday.
State schools broke up a little later, but restarted much earlier in September.
posted via 141.0.14.145 user awhakim.
message 43151 - 01/05/17
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: S & A 2016 Film (Again!)
Having said on the earlier thread that my grandson and I had enjoyed it in the cinema as an adventure film for children, I watched it with him again on DVD at Christmas.

He enjoyed it again, but with the SA dodecateuch looking down on me from the bookshelf with half-a-dozen other AR related volumes, I found it a pretty miserable experience, especially the treatment of the Blacketts.

The scenes left out of the final cut mostly deserved to be, in particular ones with CF holding forth about German rearmament, but the one of the two mothers together was not without merit, although of course it is not in the book.
posted via 88.110.73.12 user Mike_Jones.


message 43150 - 01/05/17
From: Peter Matthews, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
Robert says that "Schools have been covered a fair number of times"
Sorry if I am covering old ground but I am curious as to what the normal dates for the end of term at the start of the summer holidays and the start back at school at the end, for boarding schools in the early 1930's
posted via 212.42.177.213 user Electronpusher.
message 43149 - 01/04/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Character ages (was: schools)
Regarding 'hoofs' I think all bets are off. My teenage daughters are size 6 and there's a lad in their class with size 12s already. Feet don't always have to tally with height or age, and during childhood they can grow at a rate that seems utterly independent of all other factors.

My youngest has had the same size hoofs for two or three years at Primary school, which has saved me a fortune in Clarks. Her elder siblings cost me a heck of a lot more.

So in this one area, at least, I am prepared to say that AR made no error.
posted via 81.156.113.154 user Magnus.


message 43148 - 01/04/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Donald Campbell anniversary
Today, 4 Jan, is the 50th anniversary of the death of Donald Campbell while attempting the world water speed record on Coniston in Bluebird. At the suggestion of a listener, Radio 3 marked the occasion by playing Stanford's The Blue Bird (at the time of the start of his first run).
posted via 2.31.117.176 user eclrh.
message 43147 - 01/04/17
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Some thoughts on schools)
I think that during the 1930s schools had much more freedom in the subjects they did, or did not, teach.

My mother went to what I believe was a fairly good private school, which taught no science until about age 14 when biology was introduced. As far as I could gather there were no chemistry or physics lessons as such.

If Dick showed an early interest in sciences could he have gone to school that had a strong scientific leaning?

I too have always assumed that John was a "Pubs" entry to Dartmouth. The book "Dartmouth" by Evan Davies and Eric Grove, states:
The regulations between the wars meant that the entrance exam could only be taken once, between the ages of 13 years 4 months and 13 years 8 months."
The age on entry is not given, though I suspect successful applicants started the next term. (Dartmouth operated a term system until May 1937) This would probably have John entering Dartmouth as a Cadet for the summer term before PP, though conceivably it might be the September entry.


posted via 86.129.192.189 user MartinH.


message 43146 - 01/03/17
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Some thoughts on schools)
Even in the 1930’s some public schools had an entry age of eleven. The school I attended did so and someone else kindly confirmed that Shrewsbury did so in the 1930’s.
Not so sure about Chemistry, I did start at prep school at 9 years old. Also my father ran his own chemical laboratory at a major utility so I had plenty of background. When I first read WH, at age of 10, I did not think that chemical analysis was unusual. However my public school had brand new chemical laboratories, replacing those demolished by a V1 in WW2, and may well have been enthusiastic about everyone having a good grounding in Science. However many schools left Science until later.
This does raise the age old question – where did they go to school? We know that Titty and Roger had a long railway journey that day according to Dorothea. As the D’s lived in London this could mean beyond London. It is quite possible that Titty and Roger went to a co-educational preparatory school in the south maybe near one of the main naval bases of Chatham or Portsmouth (Plymouth would probably be too far for a day’s travel, as the journey would be about 5 hours to Paddington) and then to travel through London to catch a train at Euston. It is probable that they would have been booked on a through train from Euston to Rio (Windermere) so that they would not have to change during the journey, possibly the “Lakes Express” which started to split into portions at Strickland Junction (Oxenholme).
We know John and Susan’s schools were not so far and they had been together on the previous train when they released the first pigeon. This could indicate that they had met on the way to Strickland Junction perhaps at Rugby or Crewe. They may also have changed at Strickland Junction as there were not many through trains to Rio.
Possibly Susan went to the Royal Naval School for the daughters of officers at Haslemere in Surrey. This school still exists as the Royal School with the Princess Royal as its President.
The only school were can be sure that John did not attend was Rugby (AR’s old school) otherwise he would have surely recognised Jim Brading in WD – who was educated there. He was probably not at Dartmouth otherwise is very unlikely that he could be present for all the Swallows adventures. More likely he was at a public school intending to be a “Special Entry” naval cadet at age 18. These special entry cadets formed half the officers in the Royal Navy and were called “Pubs” from their public school or grammar school background whilst those who had come through Dartmouth were named “Darts”.
Most schools, especially boarding schools) were concerned about pupils bringing back contagious diseases. We must remember that there were no antibiotics available in the 1930’s to control infections. Even in the 1950’s, I had to receive smallpox & diphtheria boosters before I was allowed to go to public school. Once at school everyone had to receive Salk polio jabs when these became available.

posted via 87.113.133.203 user OwenRoberts.
message 43145 - 01/03/17
From: Allan_Lang, subject: Re: The Blacketts school (& Dick)
On relative ages John is generally taken as older than Susan; he was based on Taqui the eldest Altounyan child according to Hugh Brogan, as Roger could not be the only boy in S&A. And is Molly Blackett older than Captain Flint? Not stated definitely re John or Molly that I can recall.

I have assumed that Molly was older than Jim because her memories of the Great Frost of the 1890s seem better remembered and more "adult"
posted via 103.232.208.252 user Allan_Lang.


message 43144 - 01/03/17
From: Robert Hill, subject: Character ages (was: schools)
It's in PM, not PP, that we read of Dick joining the train at Crewe. That's a year and a half after WH, so he could easily be old enough to be at public school in PM despite the evidence on his young age in WH.

However I think we have to face up to the fact that the evidence on characters' ages and sizes is not entrely consistent. For example in PM Dot has the same size "hoofs" as Peggy, whereas in S&A Peggy is the same size as John.

In PM, Dick has done qualitative analysis in chemistry at school, which I imagine would not be in a School Certificate course (the then equivalent of the later O levels/GCSE), so I guess that suggests an age of 16+.
posted via 2.31.117.176 user eclrh.


message 43143 - 01/03/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: The Blacketts school (& Dick)
When the D’s are "signalling to Mars" (WH3) and initially get no reply, Dick says "Do it again" which Dorothea did: ''In matters like these, though she was the elder of the two, she always felt that Dick knew best.'' Of course, if Dick had been older than her, Dot would not have said "she did not think that Peggy could have been much older than herself" as if Dick was the elder he would have been about the same age as Peggy.

On relative ages John is generally taken as older than Susan; he was based on Taqui the eldest Altounyan child according to Hugh Brogan, as Roger could not be the only boy in S&A. And is Molly Blackett older than Captain Flint? Not stated definitely re John or Molly that I can recall.


posted via 203.96.143.237 user hugo.


message 43142 - 01/02/17
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: The Blacketts school (& Dick)
I am disappointed I cannot immediately place my finger on the place which tells us that Dot is older than Dick.

This is all I can find, and it makes it clear that the D's are both "youngsters", but not which of them is the eldest...

WH:
Close behind her came the four whom Dorothea put down in her mind as the elders, though she did not think that Peggy could be very much older than she was herself. She could not help hearing what they were talking about.


posted via 81.156.113.154 user Magnus.


message 43141 - 01/02/17
From: Allan_Lang, subject: Re: The Blacketts school (& Dick)
Re Dick: In Coot Club (a year later than WH) Dorothea says that both of them can swim and Dick got ''first prize at school for men under twelve''

Actually CC is only the Easter after WH

By WH, Susan is just 12. Dorothea probably a year younger, so Dick could be only 10.
posted via 101.178.163.14 user Allan_Lang.


message 43140 - 01/02/17
From: John Wilson, subject: Re: The Blacketts school (& Dick)
Re Dick: In Coot Club (a year later than WH) Dorothea says that both of them can swim and Dick got ''first prize at school for men under twelve''; Dick says ''Boys'', but everyone had understood (CC9). Dot recalls in Winter Holiday “the day when Dick succeeded in making sulphuretted hudrogen, and unluckily stumbled by the door and sent his whole apparatus flying into the spare room where Mr Jenkyns was to sleep”.

Hugh Brogan says somewhere that Dick reflects Arthur’s scientific experience (although AR dropped out of studying chemistry at Yorkshire College) and that Arthur and a friend had trouble disposing of some nitroglycerine they made.

posted via 203.96.143.237 user hugo.


message 43139 - 01/01/17
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
We know that Dick and Dorothea were the children of academics, and I think that it is reasonable to assume that they would have picked up a fair bit of elementary science just from conversations at home. They could scarcely avoid it. My father was toolmaker, and I picked up a lot of engineering lore quite casually. From my mother I inherited a pretty fair artistic ability, but that was more genetic than environmental.
posted via 120.144.9.178 user David.
message 43138 - 01/01/17
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
If Dick was only ten or eleven in Winter holiday, as I think I have seen it written somewhere, then he would not be at a public school for another one or two years after the summer of Pigeon Post. Boys used to go to public schools aged about thirteen at least. He could have been at a boarding prep school associated with a public school or just in reasonable proximity to one.

Mind you he seems pretty advanced for ten or eleven or even twelve in Pigeon Post. I certainly wasn't taught any chemistry until I was thirteen.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 43137 - 12/31/16
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
Schools have been discussed a fair number of times. Do we have some new members in this discussion? If so, welcome.

In chapter 1 of PM (pp. 9-10 in the Cape hardback) it is stated that, before leaving on her cruise, Mrs Blackett visited Nancy and Peggy at their school. So they were at a boarding school and both at the same one.

From the first paragraph of chapter 2 of the same book we know that Dorothea was seen off by her mother at Euston station, London, whereas Dick joined the train at Crewe. There has been speculation that he was at Shrewsbury public school.
posted via 2.31.187.161 user eclrh.


message 43136 - 12/31/16
From: Jon, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
But wouldn't day schools be equally anxious not to have "whole lot of people bursting out with spots all over, or faces like pumpkins, or turning red like lobsters or green and yellow with any kind of plague."?
posted via 69.140.32.156 user Jon.
message 43135 - 12/31/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
I had assumed from the three schools' quarantine rules in WH that they all went to boarding school.
posted via 88.110.86.134 user Mike_Jones.
message 43134 - 12/31/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
I had assumed from the three schools' quarantine rules in WH that they all went to boarding school.
posted via 88.110.86.134 user Mike_Jones.
message 43133 - 12/31/16
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
I can't remember anything specific, but have always considered they boarded at a comparatively local school; say in Westmoreland, Cumberland or Lancashire. For some reason I have the possibility in mind that they may have been weekly boarders.
posted via 86.179.135.235 user MartinH.
message 43132 - 12/30/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: The Blacketts school
Good question, the Swallows went to boarding schools judging by the odd reference in the books, and the Ds near to their father's university.
posted via 2.29.89.70 user MTD.
message 43131 - 12/30/16
From: Ross, subject: The Blacketts school
Where did the Amazons got school. I always thought it was local but in Swallowdale Nancy suggests that the GA is leaving and that they might not even see her next year if she arrives in term time,
posted via 184.151.61.2 user rlcossar.
message 43130 - 12/30/16
From: Ross, subject: Re: S & A 2016 Film (Again!)
Well one day I'll get to give it a chance and maybe I'll be disappointed too, but until then I'm going to believe that it can't be all bad.
posted via 184.151.61.2 user rlcossar.
message 43129 - 12/30/16
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Flying Down to Rio
Researching something to do with post-Great War British aeroplanes, I came across the Gnosspelius Gull registered G-BGN on 29th May 1923 and withdrawn the following year;. A second was built but unregistered; it crashed in1926, killing its pilot.
Oscar Gnosspelius designed the Gull whilst working in the test department of the Rochester based Short Brothers, later famous for their Empire and Sunderland type flying boats; a Lake District link is that Shorts had a war-time shadow factory on Lake Windermere. Before the Great War, in 1911 he had designed the Lakes Water Hen, a seaplane operating on Windermere.
Given the introduction of a seaplane in the recent film, who knows, perhaps a future production of Pigeon Post could have Squashy Hat using an aeroplane to reconnoitre the fells; perhaps the hawk that threatens the Pigeon Postal service could become a Gull or a Water Hen? At least such an inclusion would be an extra tribute to the actual, pre-copper prospecting, career of Squashy Hat, as well as a chance to include the title music from the 1933 film!
No doubt lots of readers know far more about SH’s aviation background, but I cannot recall it appearing on Tarboard before, and thought it might be of some interest for research over New Year’s day.

posted via 86.130.98.143 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43128 - 12/30/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: S & A 2016 Film (Again!)
According to the reviews on Amazon.co.uk a lot of it was filmed in Yorkshire and the Secret Harbour is a very poorly reconstructed one, not the actual place!
posted via 2.29.89.70 user MTD.
message 43127 - 12/30/16
From: Ross, subject: Re: S & A 2016 Film (Again!)
Maybe you could put it in a generic case and then one day watch it as just a story set in the Lakes without associating our much loved AR title to it.

I'd like to see it in part because it apparently shows the beautiful countryside that I generally otherwise only see through Lakeland Cam. I'm pretty sure that I'll be able to separate it from AR's work and enjoy the efforts of a film maker to tell a story.

And if any youth picked up real AR books this summer because they saw this movie then I think that is all good.
posted via 184.151.61.2 user rlcossar.


message 43126 - 12/29/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: S & A 2016 Film (Again!)
There's a thought! Firstly, because of who gave it to me and secondly I will get around to watching one day. But that my not be for a long time!
posted via 2.29.89.70 user MTD.
message 43125 - 12/29/16
From: Ross, subject: Re: S & A 2016 Film (Again!)
You can regift it to me
posted via 184.151.37.216 user rlcossar.
message 43124 - 12/28/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: S & A 2016 Film (Again!)
Link got lost!

http://held-to-ransome.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/a-1-minute-review-of-swallows-and.html
posted via 95.150.76.98 user MTD.


message 43123 - 12/28/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: S & A 2016 Film (Again!)
As I predicted I received a copy of the new film as a Christmas present, I've commented about it on a blog I started a couple of years ago but never post much to before.


posted via 95.150.76.98 user MTD.


message 43122 - 12/28/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Re: 2016 S&A Film - a late reaction
What a great way to start a new year, Andy. I would start with S&A, not just because it is the first. Each of the 12 can stand alone, of course. But, if your wife loves it, there's the warming thought of 11 more to enjoy. Plus, there's that wonderful feeling the next time you read S&A of entering that world again,and the anticipation of all the ones to follow. It's a feeling that never goes.
posted via 86.161.52.232 user Tiss_Flower.
message 43121 - 12/27/16
From: Andy, subject: Re: 2016 S&A Film - a late reaction
A brief update: my stocking contained NO films this Christmas. :)

My wife, for some (inexplicable and quite frankly shocking) reason, has never read Ransome, but she'd clearly listened to my early December wailing and gnashing of teeth.

She HAS, however, read plenty of C.S.Lewis. So, at the time, I'd asked her how she'd feel if the books she'd loved as a girl were to be turned into some action-adventure CGI Big Music outing. Done and dusted in 97 minutes. I think the message hit home.

And on this note ... I had not read the Narnia books as a young 'un, so we read them out loud to each other together, chapter-by-talking-lion-chapter.

As she now 'owes me one', which Ransome novel would the members of Tarboard consider to be the best to undergo this treatment? I have some thoughts, but would love to hear other suggestions.

Andy
posted via 88.111.192.54 user Andy.


message 43120 - 12/24/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Re 'Ransome Theme Park' (was Secret Water Road Naming)
Aha, it's Gollum again - a merry Christmas to you. Actually, I wish we could find deeper in Capt Flint's trunk his lost chapter describing the incompetent fish-frying - that would be a gem.

posted via 86.152.150.108 user JG.
message 43119 - 12/24/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: Re 'Ransome Theme Park' (was Secret Water Road Naming)
What about "Spot the accurate bits in the new S&A film". (This one demands concentration.)
posted via 81.132.173.164 user Peter_H.
message 43118 - 12/24/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Re 'Ransome Theme Park' (was Secret Water Road Naming)
'The Highland Stalk' - can you evade the ghillies? 'Catch the buoy' or drift out to sea... Panning for gold, of course. Signalling to Mars. Santa's Igloo at Christmas. Dragon Festival.
We could be on to something.......
posted via 86.152.150.108 user JG.
message 43117 - 12/23/16
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Re: Re 'Ransome Theme Park' (was Secret Water Road Naming)
There is always the popular “Sailing blindfold in Rio Bay” (Summer Saturdays only).
Or the seasonal “Swim to the Fram under ice”
Maybe the authentic Great Aunt experience “ Be hunted by hounds in the woods”

posted via 84.92.128.73 user OwenRoberts.
message 43116 - 12/23/16
From: Ross, subject: Re: Re 'Ransome Theme Park' (was Secret Water Road Naming)
or the Dodging Pike Rock Challenge
posted via 184.151.61.60 user rlcossar.
message 43115 - 12/23/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Re 'Ransome Theme Park' (was Secret Water Road Naming)
Let's not forget the Captain Flint Plank Walk and the Lighthouse Tree Climbing Adventure.

Perhaps Slater Bob's Gold Mine Ride would be fun though a bit scary.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 43114 - 12/23/16
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: Re 'Ransome Theme Park' (was Secret Water Road Naming)
The ever-popular rescue of a crag-bound sheep.


posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43113 - 12/23/16
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re 'Ransome Theme Park' (was Secret Water Road Naming)
But there's fun to be had with this concept! Any offers? 'Roger's scary abseiling' and so on?

The would have to be a Knickerbocker breaker!

"Octopus Lagoon" ride, the "Crab Island" experience, "Ice sled" ride
posted via 86.179.135.235 user MartinH.


message 43112 - 12/22/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Secret Water Road Naming
Yes, I've seen signs for that! At least TDC's decision is in proper recognition of AR. There's been no news on naming the roads on the housing estate that is being built to named with reference to SW.
posted via 95.150.197.189 user MTD.
message 43111 - 12/22/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Secret Water Road Naming
Many years ago a friend who knew of my interest in AR told me confidently that she'd driven past the 'Ransome Theme Park' near Ipswich. Turns out that she had seen a sign to the Ransomes Europark industrial estate (named after the lawnmower-maker, to whom AR was distantly related) on the A14. I had to break it gently to her that there were no S&A experiences on offer there.
But there's fun to be had with this concept! Any offers? 'Roger's scary abseiling' and so on?
posted via 86.152.150.108 user JG.
message 43110 - 12/22/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Secret Water Road Naming
This week the road name sign has been erected in the new development in Walton on the Naze at the site of the old Martello Caravan Park (off the B1034 Kirby Road) - the entry road is now 'Arthur Ransome Way'.

The decision was made by Tendring District Council back in September, a PDF can be seen here

http://tdcdemocracy.tendringdc.gov.uk/documents/d153/Printed%20decision%202716%20Proposed%20Road%20Naming%20and%20Numbering%20-%20Arthur%20Ransome%20Way%20Kirby%20RoadWalton-on.pdf?T=5

Curiously, the document refers to it being the old Naze Marine Holiday Park which is further towards the Naze and still in business!
posted via 95.150.197.189 user MTD.


message 43109 - 12/17/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Old Peter's Russian Tales
For those who might wish to get back to the genuine world of Arthur Ransome there is now available a new and revised paperback edition of AR’s book ‘Old Peter’s Russian Tales’ (first published in 1916), and this also includes ‘The Battle of the Birds and the Beasts’ (published in 1984). Both of these are collections of Russian folk stories, as noted down and translated by AR in his first visits to Russia. The stories give a wonderful insight into folk memories of ‘old Russia’ set among the vast forests, alive with animals. This is the real Russia that Ransome loved (nothing to do with cardboard ‘spies’).

This combined volume is published by the Arthur Ransome Trust (ART). If anyone’s interested, you can order the book at the ART online shop (not a bad Christmas Present?)

ART Shop



posted via 5.81.1.46 user Peter_H.


message 43108 - 12/16/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Review on IMDb
I am not concerned with film-maker’s profits.

That's a perfectly reasonable position to adopt. I read the books- have only seen the 1974 Whatham film, which I thought was excellent. But my main "vision" of the stories comes from my ancient impressions from the books.
However, if we want to see films of the books, then we have to take into account the only thing that makes their production possible- the film producers' profits. And wanting the films is also a perfectly reasonable position to take.
We're getting both, so I reckon we're doing all right.
posted via 90.255.41.69 user PeterC.


message 43107 - 12/15/16
From: Ross, subject: Re: 2016 S&A Film - a late reaction
I'm still keen to see it. I have no plans to travel to Britain in the next year though so I guess I'll wait a while:(
posted via 184.151.63.148 user rlcossar.
message 43106 - 12/15/16
From: JG, subject: Re: 2016 S&A Film - a late reaction
A festive toast to you, Magnus, for your generous and fair-minded enjoyment of the pleasure of those thousands of other people of all ages and backgrounds. There are many other films for children these days which will do them less good in their lives.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 43105 - 12/15/16
From: Ed Kiser, subject: Re: 2016 S&A Film - a late reaction
"messing about in boats"

This certainly should have been a well loved oft repeated phrase found somewhere in a RANSOME book, but such is not the case.

I quote from "WIND IN TH$ WILLOWS" -

`Nice? It's the only thing,' said the Water Rat solemnly, as he
leant forward for his stroke. `Believe me, my young friend,
there is nothing -- absolute nothing -- half so much worth doing
as simply messing about in boats. Simply messing,' he went on
dreamily: `messing -- about -- in -- boats; messing -- -- '

Our beloved Ransome characters would certainly have agreed with such a claim.

And as for seeing the DVD of that movie, I am glad the technology used in that offering is for the UK, but NOT acceptable in machines in the USA. So I am spared the dismay of warping of the story I knew of my childhood friends.

Ed Kiser, Kentucky, USA [ kisered@aol.com ]
posted via 76.177.72.133 user Kisered.


message 43104 - 12/15/16
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: 2016 S&A Film - a late reaction
A good book lets the reader use their imagination. Once it is on screen you tend to think of the appearance of the actor rather than the character. Very good casting avoids this to a degree, but ever since seeing the 1974 film I see Sophie Neville instead of my vision of Titty.

Note how Ransome gives very few physical descriptions allowing us to have our own ideas of a character.


A very merry festive season to you all. Here's to a great 2017 full of people sailing, fishing, camping, exploring, playing, pretending, and maybe finding treasure...

Hear, hear! Perhaps the greatest treasure of all is simply finding the pleasure that messing about in boats is all about.
posted via 81.140.174.136 user MartinH.


message 43103 - 12/15/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: 2016 S&A Film - a late reaction
... and I should have added, I am in heated agreement with your September comments --

...it should be borne in mind that “Swallows & Amazons” is not a play – it is a novel, which is a very different animal. With a play, be it Shakespeare or whoever, all you need do is stick to the script, and then you can do what you like with the setting, the costumes, have women playing male roles etc etc, but it is considered a no-no to interfere with the script written by the playwright. With a novel, the whole book is in effect the “script” and therefore you should be faithful to it. A “new Nancy interpretation” is, to my mind, a perversion of what Ransome intended. He did not write Nancy as a “sulky pre-teenager” and therefore you should not portray Nancy as such. The fact that it may appeal more to present-day children (and thereby increase box-office appeal) is to my mind irrelevant. I am not concerned with film-maker’s profits.
posted via 124.171.84.85 user mikefield.


message 43102 - 12/15/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: 2016 S&A Film - a late reaction
Well, thanks for your last bit, Peter. But I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it, nevertheless. You're certainly right in that I was one who declared early on my intentions to not see it, however -- I just couldn't see how train chases and spies and aeroplanes could possibly play any part in S&A.

The book is the book, and it is what it is. Making a film from it by condensing and abridging material as deemed useful is one thing -- wilfully adding spurious material for whatever reason is something else altogether (and also is something up with which I steadfastly refuse to put).
posted via 124.171.84.85 user mikefield.


message 43101 - 12/15/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Availablilty of the books
Old news now, but I found the full set in an antiquarian bookshop in Adelaide while I was holidaying there about ten years ago -- bought them on the spot and had them mailed directly home.
posted via 124.171.84.85 user mikefield.
message 43100 - 12/15/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: 2016 S&A Film - a late reaction
A few people thought I was weird when I said I was deliberately avoiding the new film, as I did with the musical a few years ago. I just know it won't bring me any pleasure.

What WILL bring me pleasure, though, is thousands of other people watching the film and enjoying it on their own level. It is great that lots more people are now aware of Ransome's tales.

I'm pretty sure there's no danger of anyone gifting it to me this Christmas!

A very merry festive season to you all. Here's to a great 2017 full of people sailing, fishing, camping, exploring, playing, pretending, and maybe finding treasure...
posted via 81.156.113.154 user Magnus.


message 43099 - 12/14/16
From: Andy, subject: Re: 2016 S&A Film - a late reaction
...I am somewhat in fear I will be getting a DVD of this film all wrapped up by well-meaning gift-givers this Christmas. I can't say I want to see it, ever. :(

Andy


posted via 88.111.196.113 user Andy.


message 43098 - 12/14/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: 2016 S&A Film - a late reaction
Interesting view Peter.

I was in two minds about it, I avoided buying it on DVD but no doubt someone in the family will buy it for me for Christmas.

From all I've read and the clips and photos I've seen I have this feeling that I will end up with a response like yours.
posted via 95.150.197.253 user MTD.


message 43097 - 12/14/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: 2016 S&A Film - a late reaction
The new Swallows & Amazons film is now available on DVD. I watched it yesterday, for the first time. Sorry, but I hated every minute of it. The one advantage of watching on DVD is that I could fast-forward through the more unpleasant bits. If I had my time again, I would not have watched this film - it has left a deeply unpleasant taste in my mouth. It was far worse than I thought it would be. I think it was Mike Field who said he wasn't going to watch it at all. Good decision, Mike.
posted via 5.81.1.46 user Peter_H.
message 43096 - 12/01/16
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Registration, was Re: Sailing boats must have names
Actually, Mike, you made many good suggestions for future iterations. Anyone building a Fliptail would do well to read your ideas on it.

Aw, shucks... Bucephalus is actually a Ralph Stanley design, not a Herreshoff, but I think that's a pretty good pedigree, too.

Alex
posted via 204.194.168.209 user Pitsligo.


message 43095 - 11/30/16
From: Peter Ceresole, subject: Re: Accommodation on the Broads yachts (was:Sailing boats must have names)
The smallest crew member got to choose where to sleep – on the floor of the main cabin or in the sail locker (which on the "Hustlers is quite spacious) forward of the mast. The sail locker was the favourite, except when sailing at the end of March/beginning of April when it was terribly cold.

Not strictly relevant, but this reminds me so vividly of my nephew-by-marriage, Nick, who as a young lad crewed as sailmaster in "Merit", in two successive Whitbread races to New Zealand. He had no sense of comfort whatsoever, used to sleep on the floor next to the kitchen in his mother's flat, and on "Merit" slept in the sail locker. He'd monkey up into the rigging with his little hand held sewing machine to repair torn sections... Utterly mad. They did all right in the monohull class. He now has his own business (Europsails, in Geneva) and makes sail sets for others, so the Whitbread connections paid off well. He also brought a wife back from New Zealand, and before that seems to have sampled all the girls on the PacRim (well he was very beautiful, as well as a sailor in a foreign port, and these things count).
posted via 90.255.41.69 user PeterC.


message 43094 - 11/29/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Registration, was Re: Sailing boats must have names
Alex' last comment is not entirely true -- all I came up with was reams of praise for his build.... :)

I might also add that his sloop Bucephalus, to which Foal is the tender, has a great pedigree. She is one of my all-time favourite boats. Alex can correct me here, but I believe she's a Herreshoff design, being 19' on deck and drawing 3'-3". I love her perfectly-balanced gaff rig. And she's also perfectly-named, as you'll remember that the original Bucephalus was the horse ridden by the first Alexander-the-Great.

[ Image ]

posted via 124.171.166.234 user mikefield.


message 43093 - 11/28/16
From: Jock, subject: "Britain's lost waterlands..." (was: Sailing boats must have names)
Hmm... Thank you JG for the prod.

We don't have TV, and the powers that be have decided in their wisdom that the Beeb's iPlayer does not work outside the UK – an own goal for the UK's foreign office in my humble view.

Having got that off my chest, I did contrive to watch the programme and greatly enjoyed it, particularly the Broads and East Coast sections.

Yes it was the same "Wood Rose", though looking at the planking it's probably time she was fitted with new ribs, if not more!

posted via 178.43.197.245 user Jock.


message 43092 - 11/28/16
From: Jock, subject: Accommodation on the Broads yachts (was:Sailing boats must have names)
An interesting question! When my parents hired "Summer Breeze" she was billed as 3-berth, and from what I remember, the third berth was NEXT to the toilet. We actually had four crew members on board – the fourth sleeping on an extra mattress on the floor between the two main berths.

I usually had 3 crew members when hiring one of the 2-berth "Hustlers" and arranged for an extra mattress and bedding. The smallest crew member got to choose where to sleep – on the floor of the main cabin or in the sail locker (which on the "Hustlers is quite spacious) forward of the mast. The sail locker was the favourite, except when sailing at the end of March/beginning of April when it was terribly cold.

The Hunter fleet is immaculately maintained and the "Hustler" sail locker definitely does not smell!
posted via 178.43.197.245 user Jock.


message 43091 - 11/28/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Russians....
Well, it has taken the British media 90 years to pierce the 'local burglar' cover of our operatives; what else will now emerge?
posted via 81.159.83.70 user JG.
message 43090 - 11/28/16
From: Paul Crisp, subject: Re: Russians....
So, Comrade, the Russians in the film.... What did you want to discuss, or has it been censored by the Politburo?
posted via 86.157.210.253 user Paul_Crisp.
message 43089 - 11/27/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Re: Film taking fans back to book?
Listening to an unabridged reading of S&A is great, but this reader has misinterpreted fundamentally the first crucial plot line. He reads the famous telegram as "Better drowned than duffers. If not, duffers won't drown". I know the best interpreter of AR's books is Gabriel Woolf, but his readings are abtidged and, while I think he's done it so well, you hardly notice anything left out, I am a bit of a stickler for unabridged versions of books. Any thoughts on who would be as good an AR interpreter? Alex Jennings, who has done some brilliant Dickens' readings, has done his version of S&A but, sadly, the library's only copy has been withdrawn due to a missing CD. I think Martin Jarvis would be fantastic. His Just William readings are pure joy.
posted via 86.152.151.170 user Tiss_Flower.
message 43088 - 11/26/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
Have you seen the programme about AR on BBC 4 this evening? Exploring Lake District, Broads, and Pin Mill area. In the Broads part, there's a shot of sailing-boats for hire and I saw a 'Hustler'; then we see the commentator in his hired boat, and it's 'Wood Rose', marked as from Ludham. Same one, even?
posted via 81.159.83.70 user JG.
message 43087 - 11/25/16
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Registration, was Re: Sailing boats must have names
Thank you for the compliments all around! That's a "Fliptail 7" dinghy that I just built this past summer.

I've been interested in folding dinghies ever since reading GN?, and since towing a dinghy in a 19' sloop has serious drawbacks, I finally decided to build one. I very much wanted to build a Berthon, even contacting the company to see if they had plans --they don't, their modern business is in yacht services, but they're *very* pleasant-- or something like the Nautiraid "Coracle", which is as close as you can get to one of the old Berthons today.

No plans exist for something that complex, and a Nautiraid is beyond my budget, but the Wooden Widgets "Fliptail" looked good, so I went with that. I modified it quite a bit from the original, but I'm pretty pleased with how it came out --and for those wondering, it's nowhere near as tippy as Mac's. My narrative of the build is at the link below if anyone wants to follow suit, and I went into a bit more detail on the build on the WoodenBoat Forum (where our Mike Field came up with some good ideas for further mods). I can recommend the project wholeheartedly.

Alex

posted via 204.194.168.209 user Pitsligo.
message 43086 - 11/25/16
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Registration, was Re: Sailing boats must have names
Thank you for the info. It sounds as varied there as it is here.

Alex
posted via 204.194.168.209 user Pitsligo.


message 43085 - 11/25/16
From: David Bamford, subject: Re: Registration, was Re: Sailing boats must have names
I was interested to note, Alex, that your very fine sloop is attended by a neat Berthon-style folding dinghy, which the good Mr. Ransome was quite keen on. By 'Berthon-style' I intend to indicate that folding dinghies of this design were manufactured in commercial quantities in the 1930s by the Berthon Boat Building Company on the Isle of Wight.
posted via 137.147.29.177 user David.
message 43084 - 11/25/16
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Registration, was Re: Sailing boats must have names
I don't know the situation in the 1930s, but currently vessels kept in the Norfolk Broads area for more than 28 days must be registered with the Broads Authority. Registered vessels should display the registration number where it can be easily read. See http://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/boating/owning-a-boat/tolls for details.

Other authorities have different rules and requirements. Most rivers and canals are controlled by the Canal and River Trust, whereas the rivers Thames and Medway are controlled by the Environment Agency.

I think boats on the lakes of the Lake District are registered with the local authority (council).

So all in all it depends on where you are.
posted via 109.150.85.222 user MartinH.


message 43083 - 11/25/16
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Registration, was Re: Sailing boats must have names
"All the craft proudly displayed their names, none had their registration numbers marked on the hull."

What's the law over there, for what needs visible numbers?

Here in the US, what boats are and aren't required to be registered varies from state to state: in Maine, my 19' sloop wasn't required to be registered because she doesn't have an engine (no engine, no reg, no size limit); in Washington State, anything over 16' on deck is required to be registered whether it has an engine or not. (Wasn't THAT a mess, sorting it out when I moved from one to the other!) Then there are nationally registered "documented" vessels, above five tons net, that must display a name and port of hail, but don't display any numbers. And commercial fishing vessels must display their fishing license as well as any registration numbers, but that's different. But if a boat is required to be registered, you're in serious trouble if you don't display your bow numbers and a valid annual "tag" that shows you've paid your registration fee.

For reference, here's my sloop's version: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8597/28812989774_1815ebc92c_b.jpg The first two letters are the state (WN is Washington; adding to the confusion, they don't necessarily correspond to the state's general useage two-letter abbreviation, where Washington is WA); then a sequence of numbers and letters unique to the boat (in Washington, four numbers and two letters; in Maine, typically four numbers and one letter); then the self-adhesive, reflective state "tag" that indicates your wallet has been duly emptied into the state coffers.

Should Goblin have displayed registration numbers? Sir Garnet? The Beckfoot launch? Teasel? Swallow and Amazon? Sometimes I see photos of cutters or barges and they have big numbers or letters on their sails, and sometimes numbers on their hulls --and I haven't any idea what I'm looking at.

How did things work then, and how do they work now?

Alex

posted via 204.194.168.209 user Pitsligo.
message 43082 - 11/25/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
Jock, I am sure I hired "Summer Breeze" out of Horning too! But that was 1998. My wife was horrified by what was probably the same toilet bowl you saw in 1964, which flushed with river water.

There were only two proper berths though, so did your parents make you sleep in the sail locker, forward of the mast? It was terribly smelly in there I recall from the one time I peeped in.
posted via 81.156.113.154 user Magnus.


message 43081 - 11/24/16
From: Tiss Flower, subject: Re: Film taking fans back to book?
After waiting patiently in line for my library copy of S&A on audiobook (unabridged), I have finally got it, but can't renew it because there is stll a queue after me. When the DVD comes out, hopefully the queue will lengthen again.
posted via 86.152.151.170 user Tiss_Flower.
message 43080 - 11/23/16
From: Jock, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
In 1964 (my first Broads holiday) my parents hired "Summer Breeze" a Bermudan sloop from a boatyard in Horning. In subsequent years, I had the good fortune to sail in various gaff-rigged boats from the magnificent Hunter fleet: "Wood Rose", "Wood Anemone", and two different "Hustlers". All the craft proudly displayed their names, none had their registration numbers marked on the hull.


posted via 178.43.206.242 user Jock.
message 43079 - 11/23/16
From: Patrick Fox, subject: Re: "As old as my tongue...
Mmm. How odd, I definitely associate it with Ransome in my mind. Its not said in the (1974) film is it? I'll keep thinking - irritating when you can't quite place something!!

Cheers
Patrick
posted via 185.58.164.43 user PJF.


message 43078 - 11/23/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: "As old as my tongue...
The quote about tongue and teeth is definitely not mentioned in any of the S&A books; I've confirmed with a computer search of the ebooks.

The only bit I can think of, which you might have been remembering, was this:


Young Billy gave a last pat or two to the smoking mound, and came to them. He was another old man, but not quite so old as the first.
“Dad been showing you round?” he said to the Swallows.
“Is he your son?” Roger asked the first old man.
“He is that, and got sons and grandsons of his own, too. You wouldn’t think I was as old as all that. But I’m Old Billy and he’s Young Billy.”
“He doesn’t look like a son,” said Roger.
Young Billy laughed. “Let’s have the box, dad,” he said, and Old Billy gave him the cigar-box.

posted via 81.156.113.154 user Magnus.


message 43077 - 11/22/16
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
"Elver, Fry, Grig is nicely alphabetical..."

That's a good point, keeping them alphabetically distinct. An old and important technique for keeping characters distinct in the reader's head --and, conversely, for linking them where appropriate: e.g. Dick and Dorothea. I had thought to keep Grig and Glut similar to match Dum and Dee, but maybe otherwise would be better.

Not sure about using a collective term as a name, though. A boat is an individual. Hmm...

Alex
posted via 204.194.168.209 user Pitsligo.


message 43076 - 11/22/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: "As old as my tongue...
I don't think mine would have, either.
posted via 92.18.211.69 user Mike_Jones.
message 43075 - 11/22/16
From: Robert Hill, subject: Re: "As old as my tongue...
It was also a favourite saying of my grandmother (b. 1878). She was not a well-educted person and probably wouldn't have read it in Swift.
posted via 2.31.187.161 user eclrh.
message 43074 - 11/22/16
From: Mike Jones , subject: Re: "As old as my tongue...
I'm sure I haven't come across it in AR, but it was a favourite saying of my grandmother (b. 1891).
posted via 82.132.234.114 user Mike_Jones.
message 43073 - 11/22/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
Huh? Monosyllabic?? Must have been at the gin. Apologies.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 43072 - 11/22/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
Lovely try-out of my eel-tender names, Alex! I agree that 'glass' isn't ideal; a quick trawl (ha) of collective nouns for eels produces swarm, fry, bed, congress, wisp, draft, array, seething. 'Fry' is an East Asian collective term for glass eels; Elver, Fry, Grig is nicely alphabetical and monosyllabic.
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 43071 - 11/22/16
From: Patrick Fox, subject: "As old as my tongue...
"As old as my tongue and a little bit older than my teeth" is, I was sure, said by one of the Billies in either S&A or Swallowdale. However, I happened to mention it to someone recently, to be told it was a Jonathan Swift quote, which google seems to confirm. And now I come to look for it in the AR books, I actually can't find it at all. Am I making up the Ransome connection? Does anyone else recall this saying cropping up in any of the books?

Cheers
Patrick
posted via 185.58.164.43 user PJF.


message 43070 - 11/21/16
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
No 100 points for me; I had to search them out. Clever references, though!

Elver, Grig, and Glass are pretty darn good, too. I might go with Elver, Grig, and Glut, to avoid using a name that's also a commonly used word.

Yes, AR could have provided such a list at the beginning, but then he'd have been expected to use the names throughout --else why would he have told us about them? Letting things like that drop away unused is bad form, as a writer. It doesn't add enough richness to the story to warrant the way it slows the story down.

That's all just a guess. Yes, he could have done it in a way that wasn't disasterous:

"They watched the dinghies pass, two ahead of Goblin, one astern, spooling out wakes straight enough John could find no fault in them.
"Elver", Titty read the departing transom of the first dinghy. And then, puzzled, "Glut."
"Grig," added John, watching the third, confident Swallow would have pointed just as well and wishing she could have the opportunity to try.
"Puddingheads," Roger confirmed his judgement.

The trick is, could he have set it up so that the opportunity to see and note the dinghies' names significantly added to the story, rather than just slowing it down? He had a lot to do, to get the Swallows gloomy, then put right, then on their way out to Secret Water, all of which was mostly preamble to the main storyline, so it needed to move as quickly as possible. Later, with each of Eels in their own boat, there was no advantage in using boat names as shorthand to refer to a collection of people, so he may have decided it wasn't worth the complexity.

And I could have all of that completely wrong, but I'm 700,000 words into a nine-book / 1m+ word fantasy series I'm writing, with over 450 named characters, so the principles of not confusing my (future) readers, and keeping the story moving forward, have become very important to me.

Alex
posted via 204.194.168.209 user Pitsligo.


message 43069 - 11/21/16
From: Jon, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
So, the BS connection? "Chimbley" was the last connection I made; "Warmints" was easy, and triggered "Bangate".
posted via 69.140.32.156 user Jon.
message 43068 - 11/21/16
From: Jon, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
So, the BS connection? "Chimbley" was the last connection I made; "Warmints" was easy, and triggered "Bangate".
posted via 69.140.32.156 user Jon.
message 43067 - 11/21/16
From: JG, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
Elver, Grig and Glass
posted via 84.92.123.32 user JG.
message 43066 - 11/21/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
You have half-convinced me, Alex, but not fully. There could have been a brief list of names right at the start of the voyage, and then they could have been ignored thereafter.

Moray, Conger, and Electric! I like those names.

But I prefer Bangate, Warmint and Chimbley.

If you can recall 'warmints' without looking it up you win 100 points.
posted via 81.156.113.154 user Magnus.


message 43065 - 11/20/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Beckfoot ownership, was Sammy's fears
Usually nowadays, a long lease can be inherited or is bought and sold on the open market and the value paid is not affected by being leasehold rather than freehold. If the lease was for a short period, then the price could be affected as it is possible that the landowner would not want to renew the lease rendering your purchase effectively valueless.

Some leases, especially of agricultural cottages in the 19th century could be tied to a given number of generations of a single family, in Hardy's novels a three life lease which expires when the third person dies, is typical.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 43064 - 11/20/16
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
As a writer, I suspect AR made a very conscious choice to *not* name those dinghies: AR was managing *a lot* of characters in those scenes, which is very tricky (he does it well, too), and adding three more names for the reader to keep track of would have made for more difficult reading. Wizard and Firefly could be used to refer to their crews collectively, thus can simplify a scene for a reader, but adding Moray, Conger, and Electric to the personae dramatis would only clutter it up.

Alex

posted via 204.194.168.209 user Pitsligo.


message 43063 - 11/20/16
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Beckfoot ownership, was Sammy's fears
Right. Got it. Sorry to wander off on my own. Thanks for clarification.

How would such a 999-year lease play out, in an inheritace? Would it be essentially as if the Turners had owned Beckfoot outright, and one of the kids (assuming James) would have inherited it, or is it more complex?

I've always loved the idea of a peppercorn rent.

Alex
posted via 204.194.168.209 user Pitsligo.


message 43062 - 11/19/16
From: Owen Roberts, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
Perhaps they were all marked
"Tender to Lapwing"
At one time and maybe still today, if a yacht had to pay licence or mooring fees, tenders would be included in the fee. If tenders had separate names then they would be liable for a separate fee.
Further north most Broads boats had letters & numbers without a need for names.
Perhaps someone could update this please, as it is a while since I was in East Anglia.
posted via 87.112.48.195 user OwenRoberts.
message 43061 - 11/19/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Sailing boats must have names
Perhaps they were called Dum, Dee and Daisy.
posted via 88.110.67.65 user Mike_Jones.
message 43060 - 11/19/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Sailing boats must have names
I've just flicked through Secret Water to check my memory hadn't failed me. I cannot find any reference to the names of the three dinghies which the Eels sail.

Surely Ransome didn't dismiss these craft and let them go unnamed?! So many other pages are riddled with the carefully-italicised Wizard and Firefly. Then there's Lapwing, Speedy and Goblin. I just find it odd.

The Eel's dinghies even remain unnamed in the scene where six craft all raft up, and we learn who is sitting with who etc. This contains my second-favourite quote of all time, said by Roger:

"Here the fleet hogged."
posted via 81.156.113.154 user Magnus.


message 43059 - 11/19/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Beckfoot ownership, was Sammy's fears
...would have been paid...
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43058 - 11/19/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Beckfoot ownership, was Sammy's fears
You misunderstand me. I am not suggesting it was leased from James Turner, but I am suggesting that the whole house and grounds could have been leased from Lord Mucky-Muck's estate, perhaps by the Turner grandparents. This would allow them to act as "owners" in terms of decorating etc. and also treat it as a family home. The original lessors would have paid a lump sum for the lease equivalent to the value of the house at that time discounted depending on the length of the lease left. They might have to pay a ground rent of a peppercorn a year to the estate, but the lease could be held for many generations. I once "owned" a house in Lancaster which I bought with 997 years of lease left on it. I never paid the peppercorn rent but they didn't evict me for non-payment.

In Thomas Hardy there is a family which leased a farm for three generations and the drama in part turns on the death of the last leaseholder and the eviction of the family.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 43057 - 11/19/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Beckfoot ownership, was Sammy's fears
Nancy and Peggy clearly regard Beckfoot as the family home, so the most logical assumption is that it belongs to the Turners. It is unlikely that a maiden great-aunt would have owned it when there was a male Turner to father Molly and Jim. Suggestions that the Turners rented it seem rather unnecessary.
posted via 88.110.67.65 user Mike_Jones.
message 43056 - 11/19/16
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Beckfoot ownership, was Sammy's fears
Maybe it's just a difference in culture, but it strikes me as unlikely that CF's study or bedroom would be left intact on such a long-term lease. When I was a renter, I'd occasionally see houses posted for rent where an outbuilding --shed, barn, garage-- was unavailable to the renter, typically because it was being used as the owner's storage unit, but I never saw some portion of the house itself held aside for the owner.

Alex
posted via 204.194.168.209 user Pitsligo.


message 43055 - 11/18/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: Beckfoot ownership, was Sammy's fears
It could be a long term lease which is different from renting month by month. Many estates lease out houses and cottages for a period of many years (up to 999). This makes the occupier essentially responsible for the maintenance of the building.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43054 - 11/18/16
From: Tom Napier, subject: Re: Beckfoot ownership, was Sammy's fears
As I have suggested elsewhere, it would explain a great deal if Mrs Blackett were renting Beckfoot from the GA.

posted via 108.16.164.82 user Didymus.
message 43053 - 11/17/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Beckfoot ownership, was Sammy's fears
If she rents it, why was she so involved with the decorators in PP? Wouldn't that have been the landlord's responsibility?
posted via 2.28.231.225 user MTD.
message 43052 - 11/17/16
From: Magnus Smith, subject: Re: Beckfoot ownership, was Sammy's fears
Or maybe Mrs Blackett just rents Beckfoot, like the Collingwoods at Lanehead.
posted via 81.156.113.154 user Magnus.
message 43051 - 11/17/16
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Beckfoot ownership, was Sammy's fears
It struck me as a very practical arrangement. And while I imagine Molly would have had her own inheritance, separate of any bequest from Bob, to have that familiar home to anchor herself and her family would have become even more important, emotionally, with Bob gone. Keeping CF's study and bedroom available could serve as a similarly important emotional support: he's her brother, and while he might be off in South America prospecting for gold, he's still there for her.

Alex
posted via 204.194.168.209 user Pitsligo.


message 43050 - 11/16/16
From: Mike Jones, subject: Re: Sammy's fears
Bob Blackett was probably no pauper in his own right, so the Blackett girls would have been quite a catch.

posted via 88.110.67.65 user Mike_Jones.
message 43049 - 11/15/16
From: Mike Dennis, subject: Re: Sammy's fears
I agree with that.

There seems to be no direct evidence of ownership, but Mrs Blackett certainly arranges the upkeep and Captain Flint has a study and a bedroom for whenever he is there.
posted via 2.28.231.225 user MTD.


message 43048 - 11/15/16
From: Mike Field, subject: Re: Sammy's fears
I reckon that two cents of yours is worth $2, Alex.... That's the most sensible supposition I've heard yet.
posted via 124.171.166.234 user mikefield.
message 43047 - 11/15/16
From: Alex Forbes, subject: Re: Sammy's fears
"Unmarried, disinherited in favour of the married daughter."

What if he *wasn't* disinherited: he *did* inherit Beckfoot, but since he spends his time off adventuring, why wouldn't he hand over the keys to Beckfoot to his sister, whom he obviously loves, and her husband, whom it seems he thought very highly of?

Yes, as the heir apparent he had taken over a big chunk of the household real estate with his study, but they're newly married and on their way toward a family, and he's still enough of a kid to enjoy living aboard his houseboat, so it only makes sense that Molly and Bob have the house to raise their family in.

Later on, when his nieces have turned into a proper pair of hoydens (in the modern complimentary useage, please), it remains convenient to use the houseboat just to have a little peace. Besides, when he admits it to himself, it's fun being the piratical uncle who lives on a houseboat.

Just my two cents.

Alex
posted via 204.194.168.209 user Pitsligo.


message 43046 - 11/13/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Warning -- DVD of the new film
It should be noted that TarBoard does not condone illegal copying of DVDs or BluRays. Please do not use our facilities to arrange any such transactions.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.
message 43044 - 11/11/16
From: Peter Hyland, subject: Re: DVD of the new film
Amazon are releasing the DVD in the UK on December 12 at the price of £9.99.
posted via 86.182.41.83 user Peter_H.
message 43043 - 11/11/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: Re: DVD of the new film
Unlike books where there are often different publishers in Canada (Commonwealth distribution) and the US, North American DVDs and BluRays are all the same Region 1 or A code and different from the British Region 2 code which means you have to be careful about ordering from UK dealers.

There are some players which can play different regions but they tend to be more expensive.
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 43042 - 11/10/16
From: Dave Thewlis, subject: Re: DVD of the new film
I haven't seen anything but I'm not a film buff and don't follow film information, I'm afraid.

Are Canada and the U.S. the same code area? Can't remember.
posted via 47.208.67.174 user dthewlis.


message 43041 - 11/10/16
From: Adam Quinan, subject: DVD of the new film
I see that the UK release of the new film on DVD/BluRay is coming on December 12th 2016.

Still no reports of a cinematic release here in Canada. Usually films are released simultaneously in the US and Canada, anything of interest from south of the border?
posted via 99.227.224.192 user Adam.


message 43039 - 11/07/16
From: Martin Honor, subject: Re: Availablilty of the books<